Subject: Re: R14
From: chris204
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:53:10 -0700
myjch4@vianet.net.au wrote:
>
> AutoCIE@icon.co.za (Chris Edge) wrote:
> >
> > dcostell@qntm.com (Dec Cos) wrote:
> >
> > >Does anyone know when AutoCAD r14 is due for release.
> >
> > ---- snip ----
>
> (...)
>
> > Look back at the history of AutoCAD and you will see that it is full
> > of "BUM" releases.
> >
> > Ver 2.5 when the hardware lock was introduced.
> > Replaced very quickly by 2.6 without the lock in North America.
> > The rest of us still have them :-(
> >
> > Rel 9 which was a cosmetic upgrade on 2.6 pull-down menus but no
> > new commands.
> >
> > Rel 11 which prior to the release 13 was the biggest non-event in
> > AutoCAD history.
> >
> > And now Release 13. No comment on this disaster.
> >
I disagree here. I use R13 at work and R12 at home. Whenever I work at
home I feel handicapped because of all of the great r13 features that I
am missing. There are so many enhancememnts to this release, things that
just make life easier, and the solids are also much better. Don't get me
wrong, R12 is great, and R13 does have it's problems, but a lack of
great new timesaving and useful features is not one of them. The main
problem I see is the incompatability that exists between *everything*,
and R13. I can NOT get a dxf from R13 into P-CAD, and that sucks, but I
hear that at least they are including R12 when they sell a copy of R13
these days.
piece
chris
--
`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`
Blah Blah Blah
cking@pcc1.com
Subject: Re: Dimensioning Prob.
From: chris204
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:04:29 -0700
Dennis Shinn wrote:
>
> frankc64@aol.com wrote:
>
> >Is there a lisp routine or other method to basically lock dimensions
> >in place. I would like to keep them from changing once I define the tols.
> >etc. As it is, if I use mirror, grips, etc. - the dims are updated to
> >the most recent settings. I know I can use styles but I find that very
> >tedius as I may need a different style for virtually every dim.
>
> If you're not concerned about associativity in the furture, turn dimaso off and
> the dimensions will be merely text and line objects.
>
> Dennis Shinn
Yeah, that's an idea. To tell you the truth, the first 4+ years I used
AutoCAD (R10, 11, 12) I did NOT use associative dimensions, and was darn
proud of it :) I now use them in R13 (new job, new standards) and would
not go back, unless I had to (as you may have to). I'll tell you one
thing, I had prettier drawing without assoc. dimensions, I was not
limited by what Acad forces you to do with dimensions at all.
chris
--
`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`
Blah Blah Blah
cking@pcc1.com
Subject: CFP: 1997 Intl. Symp. on Physical Design, April 14-16, CA
From: ispd97@jade.cs.Virginia.EDU (1997 International Symposium on Physical Design)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:57:32 GMT
=============================================================================
Call for Papers
1997 International Symposium on Physical Design
April 14-16, 1997
Napa Valley, California
Sponsored by the ACM SIGDA in cooperation with
IEEE Circuits and Systems Society
The International Symposium on Physical Design provides a forum to
exchange ideas and promote research on critical areas related to the
physical design of VLSI systems. All aspects of physical design, from
interactions with behavior- and logic-level synthesis, to back-end
performance analysis and verification, are within the scope of the
Symposium. Target domains include semi-custom and full-custom IC, MCM
and FPGA based systems.
The Symposium is an outgrowth of the ACM/SIGDA Physical Design
Workshop. Following its five predecessors, the symposium will
highlight key new directions and leading-edge theoretical and
experimental contributions to the field. Accepted papers will be
published by ACM Press in the Symposium proceedings. Topics of
interest include but are not limited to:
1. Management of design data and constraints
2. Interactions with behavior-level synthesis flows
3. Interactions with logic-level (re-)synthesis flows
4. Analysis and management of power dissipation
5. Techniques for high-performance design
6. Floorplanning and building-block assembly
7. Estimation and point-tool modeling
8. Partitioning, placement and routing
9. Special structures for clock, power, or test
10. Compaction and layout verification
11. Performance analysis and physical verification
12. Physical design for manufacturability and yield
13. Mixed-signal and system-level issues.
IMPORTANT DATES: Submission deadline: December 20, 1996
Acceptance notification: February 1, 1997
Camera-ready (6 page limit) due: March 1, 1997
SUBMISSION OF PAPERS:
Authors should submit full-length, original, unpublished papers
(maximum 20 pages double spaced) along with an abstract of at most
200 words and contact author information (name, street/mailing address,
telephone/fax, e-mail).
Electronic submission via uuencoded e-mail is encouraged (single
postscript file, formatted for 8 1/2" x 11" paper, compressed with
Unix "compress" or "gzip''). Email to:
ispd97@ece.nwu.edu
Alternatively, send ten (10) copies of the paper to:
Prof. Majid Sarrafzadeh
Technical Program Chair, ISPD-97
Dept. of ECE, Northwestern University
2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL 60208 USA
Tel 847-491-7378 / Fax 847-467-4144
SYMPOSIUM INFORMATION:
To obtain information regarding the Symposium or to be added to the
Symposium mailing list, please send e-mail to ispd97@cs.virginia.edu.
Information can also be found on the ISPD-97 web page:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~ispd97/
SYMPOSIUM ORGANIZATION:
General Chair: A. B. Kahng (UCLA and Cadence)
Past Chair: G. Robins (Virginia)
Steering Committee: J. Cohoon (Virginia), S. Dasgupta (Sematech),
S. M. Kang (Illinois), B. Preas (Xerox PARC)
Program Chair: M. Sarrafzadeh (Northwestern)
Keynote Address: T. C. Hu (UC San Diego) & E. S. Kuh (UC Berkeley)
Special Address: R. Camposano (Synopsys)
Publicity Chair: M. J. Alexander (Washington State)
Local Arrangements Chair: J. Lillis (UC Berkeley)
Technical Program Committee: C. K. Cheng (UC San Diego)
W. W.-M. Dai (UC Santa Cruz)
J. Frankle (Xilinx)
D. D. Hill (Synopsys)
M. A. B. Jackson (Motorola)
J. A. G. Jess (Eindhoven)
Y.-L. Lin (Tsing Hua)
C. L. Liu (Illinois)
M. Marek-Sadowska (UC Santa Barbara)
M. Sarrafzadeh (Northwestern)
C. Sechen (Washington)
K. Takamizawa (NEC)
M. Wiesel (Intel)
D. F. Wong (Texas-Austin)
E. Yoffa (IBM)
=============================================================================
Subject: Re: Autodesk Dumps on Educational Users
From: jimf@protosys.com (Jim Fitzgerald)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:37:53 GMT
jimmy@fac.unc.edu (Jimmy Brown) wrote:
...snip...
>Now the real kicker. I just received a new copy of R13c4a. This CD was
>specifically marked "EDUCATIONAL" (the first time I had seen this).
>This version comes complete with a "NAG" screen that reminds you that
>you are running an educational version every time you start the
>program, and a statement to the same effect that appears on every plot
>that you make. THIS IS TO MUCH !!!!!
>
>Our division of the university is responsible for all new construction
>and renovations that take place on campus. This work is done both by
>our own Physical Plant and by outside contractors, with many of the
>construction documents being prepared in house. These documents have
>to go through several departments for review before being approved for
>construction. I'm suppose to send these documents out with this
>statement plotted on it. I DON'T THINK SO.
>
>With 35 AutoCAD licenses and 3 AutoCAD LT licenses, plus over 110
>Softdesk modules in use, we have a sizable investment in software and
>training, but things can change if Autodesk continues this train of
>thought toward its educational users.
...snip...
While I don't necessarily agree with the Autodesk's policy of placing
educational banner on plots generated from educational versions, I
think that using educational versions of AutoCAD for facilities
planning on campus certainly violates the spirit of "educational"
software..
To me "educational" means "for education of the use of this product",
not "for commercial use by educational institutions".
Educational versions are made available to students and teachers, at a
greatly reduced price, for the express purpose of teaching people how
to use the software. I think the reason Autodesk is implementing these
changes is to stop people like you from using educational software for
non-educational purposes. And in this case, it seems to be working....
-Jim Fitzgerald
Subject: Re: Multi sessions problem w/ r13c4 & W95
From: mfelkins@sprynet.com (Michael Felkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 01:17:07 GMT
I still have this problem!!!! Does anyone have any
suggestions????????????
mfelkins@sprynet.com (Michael Felkins) wrote:
>Hello Rajesh,
> I am running a 100MHz Pent. w/ 32 meg ram, 2 meg video card. But
>I am not running a permanent swap file. I thought it was needed with
>Windows95, is it still recommended? If so, how large should it be?
>Hope this helps to fix this.
>Thank you for your support,
> Michael Felkins
>>hopltd@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (G Rajesh) wrote:
>>mfelkins@sprynet.com (Michael Felkins) wrote:
>>>Hello,
>>> I am having a problem after I run multiple sessions of AutoCAD
>>>R13c4 on my Windows95. The problem is that for some reason it looks
>>>like W95 think that all of the sessions of AutoCAD are still running
>>>execpt the first one, which seems to end out okay. So, if I try to
>>>exit W95 after have running multiple sessions I get a notice that a
>>>program is still running. If I do a Ctrl-Alt-Del after running
>>>multiple sessions I can see that there is the following showing for
>>>each session of AutoCAD that I had run after the first one: "Acad (Not
>>>responding) & Acadapp".
>>>
>>> Can someone help me find out what is going wrong here and how to
>>>fix it?
>>>
>>Michael,
>>I did the same steps as mentioned by you.I opened 6 sessions of R13c4 in
>>Windows 95 . But it didn't come up.What is your system setup.Can you say
>>that.How much is your permanent swap file size and RAM.
>>Meanwhile I will also look into other possibilities.
>>G.Rajesh
>>//Autodesk Product Support on the Internet//
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
>>http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
Subject: Re: Scanning vs. Digitizing
From: Don Jacobsen
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:56:23 -0800
> My concern is that scanned files will contain a lot of extraneous
> information that will have to be cleaned up before we can use the scan. It
> seems to me it would be simpler (and faster) to digitize the blueprint to
> get the building perimeter and inside walls, and go from there. Also, the
> boss doesn't like the idea of us using the outside CAD contractor - he
> If anyone out there has experience with this sort of problem, I'd like to
> hear about it. Thanks for your help.
Hi Erich
We just started scanning some of our drawings where I work. There
really isn't to much "clean-up" involved with them. We have found that
instead of running sepias or bluelines thru the scanner we get a black
and white copy made of the drawing (we have a full sized copier for
this) then run the copy thru the scanner. Also, if you get the setting
right on the scanner, you should be able to get good quality scans. If
you scan the drawings then you need the software to edit them. We use
Cad Overlay ESP for this. The draw back is it is pretty expensive
software. So now you have to add up the cost of a scanner and a
raster/vector editing program. It is much faster to scan a drawing than
it is to redraw it or digitize it. You need to look at how many
drawings you have and the amount of information that is on them and come
up with an estimate of how long it would take a person who gets paid X
amount of dollars per hour to digitize them. Compare that to the cost
of a scanner and the software. If you have a lot of drawings it may be
cost effective to get the scanner. Like I said, once you get the
settings on the scanner set right the scanning goes very quickly.
So far I have been pretty impressed with the quality of the scanned
images we have gotten
Don
Subject: Re: Hey AutoDesk! What gives? (was Re: ACAD R13c4a and Windows NT 4.0)
From: Cara Denko
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:38:43 -0800
Miles Constable wrote:
>
> I have seen a number of articles in the last few weeks (months?) that
> allude to this problem (AutoCad r13c4a not exiting properly in Windows
> NT 4.0).
>
> And I have seen nary a response from our AutoDesk Lurkers.
>
> Not even a curt "at this time AutoDesk does not recommend running
> AutoCad r13 under Windows NT 4.0" (or words to that effect) or some such
> similar nonsense.
>
> Hey AutoDesk! What's the story? (r13 c5 here we come?)
>
> Anyway, I can't remember if anyone from autodesk posted this pointer,
> but the article located at
> http://www.autodesk.com/support/techdocs/acadicp/td101346.htm
> touches on the subject of digitizers and the possible adverse effects to
> processor usage, etc. etc.
Hi Miles,
AutoCAD R13c4a *is* officially supported under Windows NT 4.0.
The document you mention (TD101346) applies to both Windows NT 4.0 and 3.51, and the
performance degradation only occurs after closing multiple sessions of AutoCAD, if
AutoCAD is configured for a digitizer rather than the system pointing device. (That
document isn't an NT 4.0-specific issue.)
If you are experiencing a different problem specific to NT 4.0, please post the
details of that problem, or point me to the articles you mention.
Thanks,
-Cara, Autodesk
Subject: Re: LT Win95 problem
From: "S. Yoder"
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:42:07 GMT
Christopher Fickert wrote in article
<329B7C1A.247B@inch.com>...
> My linetypes all change to "continuous" when viewing and printing either
> an x-ref or drawing inserted as a block! Has anyone else had this
> problem? The model is fine: switching to tilemode turns all the lines
> into continuous ones even though the layer control and properties
> manager still describe them as dashed....help
>
Since you speak of tilemode I assume this happens when you go to
paperspace.
There are 2 variables you need to take a look at:
1) LTSCALE - linetype scale
2) PSLTSCALE - does pspace help control LTSCALE or not
For (1), let's say you are in modelspace and were planning to plot
directly from there at a given scale. Now, when you use a paticular
linetype you are using dimensions that tell LT how long this dash
is and how short that space is. These dimensions are usually give as
though you were going to plot 1=1. So to plot at 1=1 your LTSCALE=1.
If you wanted to plot a dwg at 1/4=1 and have the exact same dimensions
in your dash and space of that linetype your LTSCALE=4. Which means the
computer takes the dimensions, given in the LIN file, and multiplies
them by 4. Four is used because you are scaling everthing down by 1/4
for plotting.
For (2), you are in paperspace with your viewports all scaled, by
using ZOOM XP for setting the scale. PSLTSCALE only has two possible
values: 0 and 1 or off and on. If it is set to off the computer
ignores whatever scale the viewport maybe set at. When it is off, and
LTSCALE is set to any value, you are seeing exactly what will plot.
If it is set to on the program looks at the LTSCALE variable and
the viewport zoom factor. So if you had a viewport set for 1/4=1
you could just set LTSCALE=4 and PSLTSCALE=0. That is all fine and
dandy if you only have one scale set in any number of viewports.
If you have multiple viewports set with different scales then you
need to use (and you can do this w/ just one scale or one viewport)
PSLTSCALE=1 and set LTSCALE=1 (if you like LTSCALE=.5 when you plot
at 1=1 then use .5). This says "hey program! you figure out what
the linetype's scale should be based on the viewport scale and
the factor I gave you." So if you had 1/4=1 and your LTSCALE=1
the computer would make that viewport appear as if LTSCALE=4.
And if you had another at 1/8=1 then that one would appear as
if LTSCALE=8 without affecting the 1/4=1 viewport.
I set up two buttons on my toolbar like this
Name:Modelspace
Macro:\3\3tilemode;1;ltscale;
Name:Paperspace
Macro:\3\3tilemode;0;psltscale;1;ltscale;1;
And if you want to get real adventurous, this is what I use
in my ***AUX menu (ie. the mouse button menu):
$M=$(if,$(>,$(getvar,tilemode),0),^C^Cltscale;1;tilemode;0,+
^C^Cltscale;\tilemode;1)
I have this set as ***AUX4 2nd line, since I have a 3-button mouse,
so Ctrl+Shift+middlebutton toggles between the tilemodes and either
sets the LTSCALE to one if tilemode will be 0 or asks (\) for
the ltscale.
The trick with either of these methods, when working with larger
dwgs, is to know when to hit [Esc] (or Ctrl+C) when it begins
to regen the first time without canceling the rest of the macro.
Hope I haven't confused you too much,
Stef
--
______ ( ) http://www.netcom.com/~yodersj/
| |-| (oo) mailto:yodersj@ix.netcom.com
| |-| \/ ------------
------- | | \ CAD
_____^ ------------| \ Cow
------ | | | * Aided
^ ^ ^ Drafting
Subject: Re: Help: Pauses caused by TCP/IP?
From: ricksink@mindspring.com (Rick Sink)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:37:12 GMT
David Geesaman wrote:
>I have been having similar problems in all of my apps, but on the order
>of 15 s every 12 minutes. I am on a university network where I need to
>use TCP/IP (and IPX/SPX) regularly. If someone knows of a way to avoid
>this, or what feature of the protocol is causing this I would be glad to
>know.
>Dave
>Tuan Le wrote:
>>
>> Ralph Repp wrote:
>> >
>> > I am experiencing 4 dramatic 1-second pauses every 5 minutes on the graphics page
>> > in Autocad 12 running under Win 95.
>> >
>> > It also is present in other applications, but is not a problem
>> > as the keyboard buffer hold the keypunches until needed.
>> >
>> > Anyone else experiencing this or have an idea what is causing the problem.
>> >
>> > I have saw comments in another group but the solution was invalid:(
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Ralph Repp
>> > rrepp@iquest.net
>> >
>> > Success is not permanent: The same is true of failure.
>>
>> Do you have a network card? Under Network in the Control Panel, check
>> to see if you have the TCP/IP on your network card. If you do, remove
>> it (you probably don't need it), but leave the TCP/IP on your dial-up
>> adapter. Good luck!
>>
>> Tuan
Had same problem. Below is my original post, with response from
someone _which solved the problem_.
Rick
In article <54jiss$6sc@castle.nando.net>, ricksink@nando.net says...
>
> Since I installed Win95 I have been experiencing pauses or delays in
> cursor movement. This is most noticeable in Autocad for Windows
> Release 12 and also in Autocad LT for Win95. It manifests itself as a
> "jerky" cursor as I move about in a drawing file. This behavior occurs
> for about 3-5 seconds every 5-10 minutes. It's extremely annoying but
> does not seem to cause any "permanent damage" to files.
>
> I have not yet determined whether this pause occurs in other
> applications. The phenomenon did not occur when I previously had WFWG
> 3.11 and Acad Rel 12 for Windows installed on the same machine.
>
> My system is a 90MHz Pentium from Micron, 32meg memory. I am tied into
> a network with 3 other machines. Two are running WFWG 3.11 and the
> third is also a Win95 machine. We are using the peer-to-peer
> capability of WFWG 3.11 and Win95; no other NOS is employed. The other
> Win95 machine is not experiencing this problem, despite having Autocad
> LT for Win95 installed. It's a 486 DX2-50 with 16 meg RAM.
>
> Does anyone know what might be causing this? Are there any utilities I
> could run which might reveal what is happening? Thanks for any help.
>
> Rick Sink
>
>
>
>
>
I had this problem also, and it turned out to be this:
The problem is with the network; you might be requesting an IP address
when there is no server to provide you with one.
HERES HOW YOU FIX IT:
1. Go to Control Panel | Network
2. Select TCP/IP > (net card)
3. Pick the "IP address page"
4. Click on "Specify an IP address" and enter anything you want (if
your
not using TCP/IP over the Ethernet) and a net mask of 255.255.255.0
Give it a try; it just may work!
Tony
Subject: Dimensioning solids
From: Matt Ridge
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:12:03 -0500
I am fairly new at using the solids poriton of AutoCad and a have a
question concerning the process of dimensioning.
I cannot use dimensioning commands such as radius, diameter, center,
etc. on the circles in any of the viewports. After drawing my solid, I
switched to paper space and used SOLVIEW to create my needed viewports.
Then I used SOLDRAW to create the lines in each viewport. So far, so
good. When I try to select any of the objects in the viewport, they are
not selectable. All of the layers are on, thawed and unlocked. Here's
the weirdest part: I can use snaps like center and endpoint on the
objects, but not quadrant, nearest, etc.
The workaround I have used is to draw another circle on top of the
existing one and dimension this.
Let me know if there is a better way.
Matt Ridge
Subject: Re: Hey AutoDesk! What gives? (was Re: ACAD R13c4a and Windows NT 4.0)
From: Miles Constable
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:47:38 -0800
Cara Denko wrote:
[Note: For the sake of bandwidth I have deleted my original post; MAC]
> Hi Miles,
>
> AutoCAD R13c4a *is* officially supported under Windows NT 4.0.
My apologies. I had read (in error) somewhere else that this was not
the case.
> The document you mention (TD101346) applies to both Windows NT 4.0 and
> 3.51, and the performance degradation only occurs after closing
> multiple sessions of AutoCAD, if AutoCAD is configured for a digitizer > rather than the system pointing device. (That document isn't an NT
> 4.0-specific issue.)
[Note: I have reformatted the above due to the word wrapping of long
lines prefaced with the ">" by my newsreader; MAC]
Yes. I was aware of the "nonspecific to NT 4.0" (emphasis mine) nature
of the document. However, as far as I can tell, the majority of
postings that reference the errant exit behavior of AutoCAD also make
mention that the platform employed is NT 4.0. Sorry I have mislead
anyone with the original post.
> If you are experiencing a different problem specific to NT 4.0, please > post the details of that problem, or point me to the articles you
> mention.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Cara, Autodesk
(As an aside: I have yet to make the upgrade to NT 4.0, although not by
my choice.)
Regarding the articles which touch on this subject, I can only offer the
following list of newsgroup articles. This brief list was taken from a
rather rudimentary search through the newsgroup using the DejaNews web
site (http://www.dejanews.com).
The articles listed are the "top" article in the thread. I have not
listed the pointers to the replies as they can be accessed once the
"top" article is loaded. In total there are approximately 15 articles
which comprise the original postings and replies.
In some cases the replies to the "top" article indicate similar problems
as the originator.
The last article listed among the this listing is the one and only
response to this problem that I could find from any Autodesk
representative (G. Rajesh) here in the comp.cad.autocad newsgroup.
I should also note that I failed to append the appropriate "smiley" [:)]
at the end of the line in my original posting which makes reference to
AutoDesk 'lurkers'. I trust that this was not the cause of too much
consternation.
All in all, I can only say ...
"Oh, but that I could get that c4a CD from my dealer as fast as you
have responded!" [:)], but that's another story ...
Regards,
Miles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~ A listing of some Articles posted to comp.cad.autocad ~~~~~
~~~~ since September 1, 1996 regarding problems with ~~~~~
~~~~ AutoCad exiting properly. Message-Id: numbers taken ~~~~~
~~~~ from the header in the Deja News article ~~~~~
Subject: Windows NT 4.0 quit problems
From: "Andrew Dunn"
Date: 1996/10/09
Message-Id: <01bbb5bf$3b867870$67420acb@maxcad-01>
Subject: ACAD R13c4a and Windows NT 4.0
From: "Michael Roles"
Date: 1996/11/05
Message-Id: <01bbcb28$35453900$0c414781@michael>
Subject: AutoCAD R13_c4a for Windows 95 and NT Resource Leak????
From: "Greg Schroeder"
Date: 1996/09/18
Message-Id: <01bba594$2cd63800$0a11a8ce@sgm.rof.net>
Subject: Re:Win NT r13c4 Losing Tablet
From: hopltd@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (G Rajesh)
Date: 1996/10/28
Message-Id: <846511998.13858@dejanews.com>
Subject: FS: Kurta IS/ONE tablet with drivers
From: tomgrant@primenet.com (Tom Grant)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 21:56:02 -0700
Bought these from a large manufacturer, didn't get the pens or cursors though.
All I got were the drivers and tablets....
The drivers are compatible with MS-DOS 3.1 and later as well as
MS-Windows 3.1 and later, Windows for Workgroups 3.11 and Windows 95.
The specific Kurta tablets supported by this driver include: XGT,
XGT Penmouse, XLC, XLP, XMT, IS/ONE, and Penmouse.
Driver Version 2.3
$20 plus shipping
tomgrant@primenet.com
