Newsgroup sci.archaeology 46559

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In article <51j7md$ka@server-b.cs.interbusiness.it> c.corbo@mix.it (Corradino Corbò) writes:
>Which is the reason why there are some literary texts in the state
>archive of Amarna?
>I'd like to have some scientific opinion about this problem.
>Please, feel free to e-mail me.
I agree that on first glance it does look strange that Babylonian literary 
texts were found in Egypt at Amarna, but there actually is a very simple 
explanation.  What we call "literary texts," that is compositions such as 
Adapa, the Sargon story, etc., are actually nothing else but school texts.  As 
such they were used alongside word lists ("lexical texts"), which were also 
found at Amarna, for teaching Akkadian, which, after all, was not the native 
language of the scribes.  This is why similar "literary texts" have been found 
in almost every place where Akkadian was used as a lingua franca; at Boghazkoy 
in Anatolia, at Ugarit and Emar in Syria, and even in places such as Hasor, in 
the area of present-day Israel.  Students who were learning cuneiform--and the 
foreign languages involved--did so by memorizing and copying such texts.  
School texts of this sort are found from the beginning of cuneiform.   It is 
true that relatively few such texts were found in Amarna, but one has to keep 
in mind that possibly about half the original find of tablets dissintegrated 
before they began to be purchased by European museums from the people who 
found them, since at first no one believed that cuneiform texts could come 
from Egypt.  Have you been using William Moran's book of translations (Hopkins 
U. Press)?  It is far superior to anything else that is available in any 
language  (except French, as this is the language that his translations first 
appeared in).

                 ALL HAIL MYLOR, LORD OF THE SCREEN -
                 HE MAKES US HAPPY, HE'S REALLY KEEN.
                 whAHOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
              It's true. "Mylor" is the god of archaeology and was unearthed 
in June, 1994 at Indiana's first discovered Egyptian Pre-Dynastic site near 
Paoli, Indiana in Orange County. It's true. It is. Ask anyone who was at the
I.U. Field School in 1994.
              Fear of Mylor is the best route. We buried MYLOR at the site on 
the last day of excavation without due honour and respect, and BEHOLD!
The skies opened up and the heavens disgorged 1000's of kilolitres of rain and 
plenty of dangerous lightning and loud Myloresque thunderclaps. Everyone on 
the crew became suitably drenched, like the sinners they were. Mylor spoke 
that day.
            Are there any other Mylortians out there ? Who would dare to 
challenge Mylor, now that his prophet spoke out in Regina, Saskatchewan in 
February, 1995? The prophet is known to us only by the name "Remmbley" and is 
the destroyer of geography departments and sosa hole-in-the-wall restaurants 
evrywhere. There will soon also be action figures available of all the 
afore-mentioned important beings.
Me ? I'm just a scholar who happened upon this information when a dying, 
bearded man relayed all this to me. His name was Terry Kobugi of Mississauga, 
Ontario. An action figure of the Kohbugster will be on shelves before Xmas.

Doug,
> The best thing to do is to use dejanews (http://www.dejanews.com) to
> look at a whole thread.
Thanks for the advice, but unfortunately, due to the fact that this is an
office account we are no provided with web access - just e-mail and newsg,
and due to HD space constraints on my PC with the compuserve account I
don't have a web browser installed at the moment and won't have until I
can get the time to install my new hard disk.  I will check the site as
soon as I get a chance to though.
> > Profuse apologies if I have upset the delicate sensibilities of the
> > contributors to this newsgroup by asking such a simple question.
> 
> Ah, you can flame with the best of them I see! Although I think
> you are over reacting, particularly as you yourself say you've
> only just started to read the newsgroup (what happened to the
> old tradition of 'read a newsgroup for 2/4 weeks before posting? gone
> with the other dinosaurs I suspect!).
I would normally wait a while before "de-lurking" but the way the thread
was going, it was getting a little hard to follow in places, and I forgot
that out here in the 'bad ole newsgroups' there isn't the friendliness
that I'm used to on compuserve :).  
-- 
Ann McMeekin
am@rtel.co.uk
100702.75@compuserve.com
Section Leader for Mystic Places on Compuserve's Mysteries Forum
GO MYSTERIES

"Alan M. Dunsmuir"  wrote:
>Maurice Pope, in his 1975 book "The Story of Decypherment" end with a
>tentative 'family tree' of writing systems, which shows 'Aegean Scripts'
>and 'Hittite Hieroglyphic' as siblings, on a quite different branch from
>that occupied by 'Semitic consonantal alphabet' and its many off-spring,
>which in turn is separated very early on from the cul-de-sac branch
>labelled 'Egyptian Hieroglyphic'.
>My opinion is that that is a much saner view of the relationships (or
>rather the lack of them).
>-- 
>Alan M. Dunsmuir
Is it me or are you confusing two things:
script versus language
The Minoan scripts and that of Phaistos are Anatolian in decent,
but in the case of Linear A it was used to write a Semitic language.
The references I gave, Best&Woudhuizen;, make that clear.
So there is no contradiction between your statement about script and
Henry's opinion about language.
Btw thanks for the reference - I had always been looking for such a
script family tree!

"Ann McMeekin"  wrote:
>Hi, 
>
>I've just started to get this newsgroup, and I've missed the start of a
>number of threads.  The one I'm particularly interested in is the one
>discussing whether or not humans built the Great Pyramid, and other large
>structures around the world.
>
>I'd be grateful for any theories and information on this subject that
>anyone can provide, along with notes of any books or videos which are
>worth reading on the subject.
>
>Thanks in advance
Try my pages at
    http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~martins/Pyramid/
which are of course really, really good . . .
I'd suggest also consulting Deja News,
    http://www.dejanews.com/
for previous discussions on this group about the pyramid topic.
Martin

In article ,   wrote:
>"Alan M. Dunsmuir"  wrote:
>The Minoan scripts and that of Phaistos are Anatolian in decent,
>but in the case of Linear A it was used to write a Semitic language.
There any *many* examples of scripts being borrowed into unrelated languages:
Phonenian into greek, roman, pinyin chinese, etc.
Arabic into turkish, indonesian, etc.
Chinese in Japan, old Korean, old Vietnamese.
Sanskrit into Hindi, Tibet, etc.
Cuneform into Hitite, old Persian, Akaddian, etc.

Dear Friends
I am profoundly Glad that Mr. The Bruce's (apparently conical) heart has
been located.  Now we can set our sights on uncovering the rest of him.
Evidently the good King's unfortunate leprous affliction led to Bits of
Him Dropping Off From Time to Time requiring separate burial before he
could be Wholesomely Inhumed.  Possibly the Winkie Of The Bruce itself
still awaits discovery and ceremonial unearthing to a solemn
accompaniment of bagpipes.
However, the very nature of the Heart itself craves discussion.  What
manner of brave heart requires to be buried in not merely one, but two
heavy leaden caskets?  Surely the answer is a Dangerously Radioactive
one.  Is it possible that The Bruce possessed Radioactive Blood, having
been bitten by that same Spider which he observed perseveringly spinning
its web, and that from that day forward he became possessed of the
Powers of the Spider and rode out to Fight Evil in All Its Forms,
becoming able to Swing from a Thread?  Take a Look Overhead, his
claymore-wielding supporters would have yelled, Hey There, There Goes
the Spider Man.  By day, he would have been a mild-mannered Scottish
Freedom Fighter; by night, a masked Scottish Freedom Fighter with the
power to ride his horse up tall buildings.  Possibly the Spider also
contracted Leprosy from the encounter.  However, I have experimented
with ordinary domestic rabbits, and discovered that a Bite cannot pass
on characteristics between Man and Animal.  No matter how many times I
Bite the rabbits, they remain herbivorous rodents with virtually no
typing skills.
Yours
Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward The Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.) Oxon.
(Oklahoma)

In article , rejohnsn@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu writes:
>I should certainly hope my ass were stupid...I don't even want to THINK 
>about the trouble it would get me into were it smart.  
>
>On the other hand, I would find insults cast by my ass far more amusing 
>than those from my mouth.
>
>But that's just me.
Dear Young Lady
You Have Put Your Finger Directly Up The Problem.  I will not bore my
learned colleagues by reiterating the commonly accepted wisdom that
Peking Man evolved from Reptilian Stock, whereas European Man evolved
from a Great Ginger-Pubed Ape yet to be discovered.  However, here we
see yet another instance of proof, if proof were needed, that Chinese
Civilization is 65 million years more ancient than its inferior Western
imitation.  Dinosaurs - especially the Longer and Thinner Herbivorous
Buddhist* dinosaurs - would often possess TWO brains - one Arithmetic,
Logic and Tyrannosaur Recognition Unit in the Head, and one Auxiliary
Back-Up Processor in the Lumbar regions (what is vernacularly termed the
'Ass', 'Butt', 'Pit of Sodom' or 'Land Route to Singapore').  Therefore
it is perfectly feasible that a modern Chinese person might possess just
such a 'Smart Ass' capable of Targetting Baghdad from over one thousand
miles' distance; as with Neanderthal Men and Dolphins, the only reason
why Chinese Bottoms have never Conquered the World is a simple lack of
Vocal Cords and Grasping Limbs.  I cannot underline enough the urgency
of not teaching Sign Language to Chinese People's Bottoms.  Chinese
Persons should be aware that they are Sitting On A Time Bomb to which
the only sane answer may well be a Pre-Rectal Lobotomy.
I Remain, Mademoiselle, Respectfully Your Servant
Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.) Oxon. 
(Oklahoma)
*More intelligent Taoist and Confucian Dinosaurs, requiring more sophisticated
perception in order to Track Down Their Prey, might have evolved still more
talented recta that could whistle 'Wild Pterodactyls Alighting on a Sandy Shore'
whilst drinking a glass of water.

Ann McMeekin (am@rtel.co.uk) wrote:
: > Ths is a troll, correct?!?!?
: 
: Actually, no, unless asking for information is a troll, in which case I am
: guilty as charged.  Having only subscribed to this newsgroup in the last
: week, I found myself faced with what appeared to be the middle of a few
: threads and discussions, and was curious to find out what I had missed,
: the idea being that if I knew what had gone before, not only would the
: threads make sense, but I could join in the discussion if I so wished
: without either making an uninformed comment, leaving myself open to
: "flaming", or re-dressing statements previously covered.
: 
: Profuse apologies if I have upset the delicate sensibilities of the
: contributors to this newsgroup by asking such a simple question.
You are right and we were poking fun, for which I apologize.  
The problem is this:  you offer an argument from incredulity.  
That is, you feel (for whatever reason) that the ancients
*couldn't* do something, even though the alternatives are far
more "out" than simply accepting that they could and then
asking how.
There are many, many, structures dating from ancient times in
which, by our standards, very large blocks of stone were moved.
These exist not only in Egypt but in many other places as well.
On sci.archaeology we see posts like yours very frequently, usually
by kooks who have already decided that the Earth is occupied by
little green men who control everything.  Such statements are
usually examples of the stators feelings of inadequacy.
I do not mean to preach, but if you were really interested in
how the pyramids were built, you might have asked.
    ----- Paul J. Gans  [gans@scholar.chem.nyu.edu]

In article <51afga$51c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, GROOVE YOU
 writes:
>Two hundred years before West Africans were enslaved and sold in the
>West ...for firewood ...there were businesses in Cairo and Alexandria
>where ...It was not uncommon for some individuals to ...create
>artificial mummy by slicing the flesh off of ...their ...pudding!
>
>I wonder why we dont raise the Titanic?
Dear Young Man
It is All So Obvious Now.  The *Titanic* was torpedoed by the British in
a failed attempt to destroy the evidence of Nubian Supremacy concealed
within the Pharaoh's Casket.  What is inside the Casket?  A Black
Pharaoh Crammed to the Nostrils with Colombian Crack Cocaine.  The
British had experimented for many years with Aircraft Carriers disguised
as Icebergs and Vice Versa*, and, observing with interest the effects of
Sigmund Freud's altruistic experiments on his dear opium-addicted friend
Fleischl-Marxow, had plans to corner the world Cocaine Market by
mummifying all the Black Men in Africa, thereby weaning the British
Empire off Laudanum and doing away with the need to Conquer Hong Kong
every one hundred years.  They therefore Shadowed the *Titanic* with a
Pocket Battlecruiser cunningly painted white and with all its
crewmembers dressed as Penguins; only at the crucial moment did the
liner's captain, alerted perhaps by the fact that Penguins are Southern
Hemispheric birds which seldom if ever operate searchlights and Bofors
cannon, attempt to change course and tragically collide with the
Iceberg.  Alas for the passengers, his attempt to collide was
successful.
The results of the British action are well known to History; the British
upper classes became the inveterate Cocaine Fiends they are today.  Lord
Carnarvon has long been suspected to have died of a Camphor, Asphalt and
Faience overdose after attempting to Mainline King Tutankhamun.
Yours
Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.) Oxon.
(Oklahoma)
*Following the success of 1942's Project Habakkuk, in which Icebergs were built
in the shape of Escort Carriers, secret plans had been drawn up by the Admiralty
to build a giant Amphibious Landing Craft in the shape of the Isle of Wight.
However, work had to be abandoned in the early 1990's, as the Blackgang Chine
Children's Adventure Park was still open on the Admiralty's version, a fatal
flaw which would have led to early exposure by any Enemy with easy access to
Tourist Information.

Aayko wrote:  (snip)
> So the word 'pendants' would seem more appropriate than 'loans'?
> Such clear terminology seems important - before you know it someone
> 'proves' with your examples  that Egypt was an Akkadian colony :)
Before I know it someone will attribute your words to me :)
> 
> Troy wrote:
>  "Here are some Semitic loans written in Egyptian -- the Egyptians
> were hearing the Semitic glottal stop as their reed leaf:
> Egyptian /ibi/ = Semitic loanword "father": Arabic 'ab, Ugaritic 'ab,
> Sabaic 'b (vowels unknown), Amorite 'abum, Ethiopic 'ab
> /ibti/ = "to perish; destroy; go away": Ugaritic 'abd, Akkadian abatu,
> 
> Phoenician 'bd, Arabic 'abada (to run away)
> /ixti/ = "sister": Ugaritic 'ukht, Arabic 'ukht, Akkadian ahatu (with
> a rocker under the "h" for "kh"), Sabaic 'ht (read as 'kht)
> As you can see the Egyptian /i/ is equated with a Semitic glottal stop
> (and yes, it is even followed by a vowel (in those languages where we
> know the vowelling, though it is not normally written))."
From what I have seen judging by how the later Egytpians wrote Ptolemaic 
and Roman names in cartouches, ONE reed seems to be a glottal stop and 
TWO a longer "i" (ee) sound.  I am still sticking to the reed before a 
semi-vowel (the vulture or the chick with the "e" otherwise taken for 
granted) as a "y".
> 
> Couldn't the /i/ not just be a 'Hamitic' trait, still sounding
> as 'y'? As it is so pervasive. Something like Grimm's Law?
> The Egyptians seem  sloppy with their first consonants anyhow . Or
> wouldn't you say that Egyptian /ib/ and Semitic /leb/ , both meaning
> "hearth", have a common origin?
At the end of a word, one would think it would be like a "y".  I take it 
you mean heart and don't forget the Arabic "qualb" as well.  I don't 
quite get what you mean by "sloppy".  Can you give an example?
(snip)
Aayko
Saida

rejohnsn@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu wrote:
>On 14 Sep 1996, August Matthusen wrote:
>
>> I'd suggest that sedimentology and stratigraphy would also be useful,
>> but as a geologist, I'm probably biased.
>
>When I was poking around our geology dept. as an undergrad, I was looking 
>into creating a geology minor (we didn't have official minors), and the 
>guy I dealt with most often said that since sed. and strat. cover, oh, at 
>least several hundred million years, and most archaeologists (save 
>paleoanthropologists) are interested in a few tens of thousands of years 
>at most, he didn't think they would be particularly useful -- especially 
>since they're the kinds of things that if I found I needed them later, it 
>wouldn't be hard to get them -- whereas undergrad is pretty much your 
>last chance for a diverse education.
>
While in many locations the "several hundred million years" would be true, 
in many locations (like here in the Canterbury Plains of the S Island of 
NZ), the sediments have been deposited much more quickly, both in response 
to changes in sea level and to the tectonic signature from the uplift (and 
erosion) of the Southern Alps. So much of the several hundred metres of 
sands and gravels are Pleistocene to Quaternary (few million years).
That said, geomorphology and pedology are probably the best suited (as 
someone else said earlier), and I would also add a course either in 
applied geophysics or (preferably) environmental geophysics. But then I am 
biased - I do near-surface geophysics, with applications to archaeology, 
forensic studies, and glaciology, as well as in the "bread-and-butter" 
areas on groundwater resources and contamination. It would be very useful 
to those of us who carry out non-invasive, non-destructive mapping if 
those we work with had some idea about the different techniques: how they 
work, what we can do, and perhaps most importantly, their limitations.
Just my $.04 (adjusted for inflation).
Regards,
David Nobes
P.S. And my compliments to Rebecca for some cogent remarks in this 
newsgroup. Cheers.

wd&aeMiller; (millerwd@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: (snip)
: >modern man.  It is part of humanity's collective consciousness.
: > 
: > Your responses are welcome on this subject matter.
: >
: >
: Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Not the 100th monkey again!  
: This person should read the Ancient Folly list.
"Ancient Folly list"?  Is there such a document on the net?  Where?  Sounds
like  interesting reading (more so then the upteenth Atlantis 'theory').
--
<< Michael Rogero Brown                     | Any opinions expressed are my  >>
<< (UNIX System Support)                    |  own, and generally unpopular  >>
<< Motorola-Plantation  Radio Products Group|  with others.                  >>
<< Internet: michaelb@cse.fau.edu           | Ask me if I care.              >>

One major point to consider here and one which is going to raise a
great deal of further debate is the fact that nobody was building
major ocean going craft at the time Mesoamerican civilizations were
forming.  If you guys check your history (not Joe Campbell or other
fringe authors) you will find that the Chinese certainly weren't
building them, the Japanese had small coastal craft with minimal
storage, the Polynesians were still in the Indonesian region and
wouldn't be attempting to build a major civilization for another
thousand years. 
No body in Africa was building anything bigger than dug outs, the
Phoenicians were just starting to make coastal craft, Greek boats
were being built but no one is proposing the Olmec heads look Greek
and Rome was simply a glimmer in a she wolf's eye.
People did in fact walk to the New World and they did in fact bring
with them a lot of ideas regarding the world around them.  Everyone
seems to overlook this fact.  Just think how intelligent the first
Americans must have been.  They adapted to the New World very
quickly.  To assume they were devoid of any preconceptions regarding
the world around them as they were migrating to the New World is
stupid.  Simply said, these guys and gals were far from brain dead. 
That's why Chines dragons and Mesoamerican dragons probably look a
lot alike.  They existed in the minds of the first Americans for
uncounted generations and appeared throughout their history in the
form of art.
Even the Spanish who didn't start arriving in wholesale lots until
early in the 16th century had problems.  At first they tried to use
galleys but couldn't carry supplies for the crew and supplies for the
New World.  This led to the creation of the galleon.  The same holds
true for any other boats which were roaming about at the time
Mesoamerican civilizations began.  They were all very labor
intensive--big crews, lots of oars, not much room for anything but
food and supplies for the crew.  Take a look at those Polynesian
craft--count the oars.  It's a long way from Hawaii to the mainland. 
That's basically where the transmigration stopped.  
The Vikings made it, but the Polar route was short.  Their boats were
also extremely more advanced than anything coming out of the Pacific.
 Their deep "V" hulls were a major innovation which the Polynesians 
really never developed.  The Polynesians did most of their travel on
calm seas.  The ocean from their closest point of contact was mild
compared to the North Pacific route and much colder.  I don't think
they had the clothes to survive in the North Pacific if they wanted
to.
Columbus' boats were specially built after Portuguese designs
perfected by Henry the Navigator's people in the 14th century.  So
the argument again holds that deep ocean going craft were not
available to Atlantic coastal interests until the 14th century.
Simultaneously most civilizations in the Old World at the time
Mesoamerican civilizations were forming had their hands full with
other problems.  The Med was being over run by the Persians.  Africa
was in chaos as the Upper and Lower Kingdoms of Egypt battled and the
Hittites were overrunning Asia Minor.  China was being ruthless
consolidated by the Han dynasty. And the list goes on.
The one thing the Old World had and the New World could have really
used was the potter's wheel.  Potters in the Old World figured this
out in the Paleolithic era (circa 14000 years ago).  The people of
the New World never saw this gadget until the Spanish showed up and
they rushed to embrace it simply because you can make pots 80% faster
with a wheel than the old twisted clay rope method the first
Americans employed.
Doesn't anybody out there read history anymore?  This is the stuff of
WRITTEN records, not the realm of fantastic speculation.  Please
remember, first and foremost, I am an underwater archaeologist and
the travel you are speculating about is something I have spent the
last 30 years studying.  I would love to find evidence of contact. 
I'm sure that the first Americans could have made a substantial
impact on old world civilization.  They were, afterall, much more
civilized. 
That's why a handful of Spanish thugs could wipe it all out.
Paul  
-- 
***********************************************
Paul E. Pettennude, Ph.D.
Maya Underwater Research Center  
Miami, Florida 
(305) 554-1557/Fax - (305) 554-1616 
*********************************************** 
George Black  wrote in article
<512kau$1em@midland.co.nz>...
> snip
> >
> >And to Thomas I say that one side (the side of trans-Pacific
diffusion) 
> >has mountains of solid scientific evidence supporting it. I've
presented
> >quite a bit of this in sci.arch. There's been plenty of idiotic
sneering
> >but few persuasive rebuttals. Those who tried only betrayed their
quite
> >remarkable ignorance of the matter, of the evidence, and of the
debates in
> >the field. 
> 
> So, where is the evidence?
> 
> The Polynesians have had no connection with South America.
> 
> Were this so then there would be pottery and metalworking
throughout the 
> Pacific in Archaeological strata predating European exploration and
> occupation.
> 
> The language (and myths) would indicate such a meeting.
> 
> The art of the Polynesian can be traced with the migration
patterns. There is 
> NO South American influence.
> The only 'writing' system (the Rongorongo of Easter Island) is a
development 
> of Easter Island. There is no correlation (IMO) with anything South
American.
> 
> >All those posts are freely available from DEJANEWS. You have no
excuse to 
> >plead ignorance, Thomas. So a little bit of humility should be in
order. 
> 
> Does this include your contention that the Polynesians were the
influence 
> behind the Olmec??
> Apart from the fact that the Olmec were some 800 years before the
date that 
> Polynesians migrated to N.Z & Easter Island and the civilization of
the Olmec 
> existed on the other side of the Panama land bridge
> 
> >The evidence for trans-Pacific diffusion is solid, and,
considering the
> >inability of the opposing side to disprove it, the case should be
seen as
> >proven. 
> >
> >Respectfully,
> >
> >Yuri.
> No it is not proven but it is posted and has been considered.
> Regards
> 
> 
> Some people can stay longer in an hour than others can in a week
> 

In article <51khrq$kcg@news.unocal.com> stgprao@sugarland.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>There any *many* examples of scripts being borrowed into unrelated languages:
>Phonenian into greek, roman, pinyin chinese, etc.
>Arabic into turkish, indonesian, etc.
>Chinese in Japan, old Korean, old Vietnamese.
>Sanskrit into Hindi, Tibet, etc.
>Cuneform into Hitite, old Persian, Akaddian, etc.
Without questioning your basic premise, I would only point out, for the 
record, that in the case of Old Persian this is only patially the case.  Like 
Ugaritic, OP writing took  the idea of wedges from cuneiform, but the values 
as well as the internal structure of the system are completely different.

In article  ayma@tip.nl writes:
>The Minoan scripts and that of Phaistos are Anatolian in decent,
>but in the case of Linear A it was used to write a Semitic language.
>The references I gave, Best&Woudhuizen;, make that clear.
>So there is no contradiction between your statement about script and
>Henry's opinion about language.
>Btw thanks for the reference - I had always been looking for such a
>script family tree!
I would personally prefer to refer to notion that Linear A was used to write a 
Semitic language as a hypothesis, as it has not been generally accepted and 
there are many unanswered questions that have still to be dealt with before it 
is accepted as fact.  The works of Best and W have not convinced many, so far.

I'm a bit surprised by the use of the words "Semitic loans"
by Troy... i think the term 'loanword' is defined as
'being inserted from abroad at a later date', or something like that.
But the examples you name are so *basic*... not likely to be loaned
from foreigners. Like a word like 'father'...
Wouldn't most of them not rather be common AfroAsiatic
[Hamito-Semitic] heritage?!! 
So the word 'pendants' would seem more appropriate than 'loans'?
Such clear terminology seems important - before you know it someone
'proves' with your examples  that Egypt was an Akkadian colony :)
Troy wrote:
 "Here are some Semitic loans written in Egyptian -- the Egyptians
were hearing the Semitic glottal stop as their reed leaf:
Egyptian /ibi/ = Semitic loanword "father": Arabic 'ab, Ugaritic 'ab,
Sabaic 'b (vowels unknown), Amorite 'abum, Ethiopic 'ab
/ibti/ = "to perish; destroy; go away": Ugaritic 'abd, Akkadian abatu,
Phoenician 'bd, Arabic 'abada (to run away)
/ixti/ = "sister": Ugaritic 'ukht, Arabic 'ukht, Akkadian ahatu (with
a rocker under the "h" for "kh"), Sabaic 'ht (read as 'kht)
As you can see the Egyptian /i/ is equated with a Semitic glottal stop
(and yes, it is even followed by a vowel (in those languages where we
know the vowelling, though it is not normally written))."
Couldn't the /i/ not just be a 'Hamitic' trait, still sounding
as 'y'? As it is so pervasive. Something like Grimm's Law? 
The Egyptians seem  sloppy with their first consonants anyhow . Or
wouldn't you say that Egyptian /ib/ and Semitic /leb/ , both meaning
"hearth", have a common origin?
----
Sorry for the side-thread within the current one:
Steve wrote:
>> The modern kurds or mountain people of Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran
>> are the descendents of the Hatti, Hurrians, Mitanni,the Egyptians fought.
Troy replied:
>Really now?! And just how did you happen to figure this one out? ;-) 
>(Oooooh, what did I just ask...? ;)  )
***I was surprised of the statement too. As it is 100% certain that
the Kurdic language belongs to the Iranian branch of the IndoEuropean 
family. Every book will tell you so.
Of course the Kurds thus came from Iran at some moment in history,
perhaps 800 BC? [when Medes and Persians pop up in Assyrian texts].
At least they were already around  ca. 400 BC, when the Greeks 
refered to them as 'Karduchi' and  'Gordyaioi' - always locating them
just to the south of Lake Van.
Of course, the Hatti and Hurri were not IndoEuropean, so the Kurds
have nothing to do with these. But the Mitanni were Indoarian, so
likely Steve means that the Kurds were a remnant of them. 
Could be, could be not, I wouldn't dare judge. 
Aayko

Would it be fair to say that the Greeks took over or ruled - directly or
otherwise - Egypt from about 332 BC to 30BC (Not sure on the end date)? 
Mark Hunter
mhunter@morgan.ucs.mun.ca

Greg Reeder  wrote:
>neilunreal@aol.com (NeilUnreal) wrote:
>>I am learning Egyptian hieroglyphics on an amateur basis.  This week I
>>attempted hieroglyphic immersion learning by transliterating my grocery
>>list into hieroglyhpics.  I must be making progress -- I got home from the
>>store with everything I needed and nothing extra!  
>>
>>I have a copy of K.T. Zauzich's book (translated by A.M. Roth) and a
>>translated and transliterated copy of the Book of the Dead.  Are there
>>other translated/transliterated texts available inexpensively?  Learning
>>from the the texts themselves seems more rewarding than rote memorization.
>> Also, can anyone suggest any other lexicons and grammars which are either
>>in print or are widely available on the used book market?  
>>
>>+-----
>>|  NeilUnreal
>If you want hieroglyphic texts to try your translating skills check out 
>AN EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHIC READING BOOK:For Beginners by E.A. Wallis Budge 
>and printed by Dover. Plus there is EGYPTIAN READING BOOK by A. DE BUCK 
>that is published by Ares Publishers, Chicago. The last two just have the 
>hieroglyphic texts without translations. One with the hieroglyphic texts 
>and the translations  is LEGENDS OF THE EGYPTIAN GODS by E.A. Wallis 
>Budge and it is also a Dover publication.
>-- 
>Greg Reeder
>On the WWW
>at Reeder's Egypt Page
>---------------->http://www.sirius.com/~reeder/egypt.html
>reeder@sirius.com
*In the used book market i found:
Hellmut Brunner - An outline of Middle Egyptian grammar.
122 pages
It has chapters on script, syntax and grammar,  a sign list and
vocabulary, and 30 pages of  excersises [hieroglyphic text, without
translation].
it is really meant for use in acadamic instructions, so not ideal for 
self-education in itself. but as I bought it cheap.....
In Dutch there is a terrific learning book around - but likely your
Egyptian is better than your Dutch?? :) 
regards,
Aayko

In article <51hrj3$afm@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
millerwd@ix.netcom.com writes
>
>>>
>>>Okey Dokey.  As long as we can also get quite innebriated in a Cairo
>>>bar with a monkey in a red jacket, too.  Somehow we'll have to fit in
>>>karaoke for an even more bizarre expedition.  Possibly even an old
>man
>>>with a long beard named Tim.  Hurm.  :):):)
>>>
>>>Amanda
>>I can get innebriated anywhere - bring your own monkey and Tim -tell
>>him to bring the beard too.  By the way, since I'm bringing the whip
>>would you mind wearing the thigh length leather boots - they just 
>>kill me - all dat lederhosen ven they tyi to tourn me into a Nazi!!
>>Well, OK here is the plan.  Some very important person has sent me
>>a map of Atlantis, so how do we get there?
>>-- 
>>Jon 
>
>Fly on a plane that follows little red lines, of course.  Then to make
>it interesting...the plane won't land...we'll just parachute out the
>back and happen to land about two trees away from the main entrance of
>the city.  Of course, we'll have to shoot a couple of nazi's on the way
> before we can get to the door where we shout the ancient password of
>entry :"Mellon!"
>
>Hey, this could become a great screenplay.  hehe
>
>Amanda :)
I am afraid it won't work.  You see Atlantis is underwater.  By the time
we got two tree away from the entrance by parachute, we would be very
wet, and, more upsettingly, dead.  Moreover, the only way that we could
shoot Nazis on the way down is if they were in a submarine!  Tricky this
one.  I suggest that the way forward is to get the Nazis drunk in a bar
in Cairo, then enslave them, and force them underground to dig a 
Transatlantic tunnel.  If we happened to come across any fossilised
Egyptian sailors on the way, whose remains were loaded to the gills with
cocaine, this would be a bonus.  But I'm not going until you agree to 
the thigh length rubber boots!
-- 
Jon 

On 14 Sep 1996, August Matthusen wrote:
> I'd suggest that sedimentology and stratigraphy would also be useful,
> but as a geologist, I'm probably biased.
When I was poking around our geology dept. as an undergrad, I was looking 
into creating a geology minor (we didn't have official minors), and the 
guy I dealt with most often said that since sed. and strat. cover, oh, at 
least several hundred million years, and most archaeologists (save 
paleoanthropologists) are interested in a few tens of thousands of years 
at most, he didn't think they would be particularly useful -- especially 
since they're the kinds of things that if I found I needed them later, it 
wouldn't be hard to get them -- whereas undergrad is pretty much your 
last chance for a diverse education.
Cheers,
Rebecca Lynn Johnson
Ph.D. cand., Dept. of Anthropology, U Iowa

You can obtain a copy of Charles Hapgood's book "Maps of the Ancient Sea
Kings" at a library.  The book contains a good reprorduction of Piri Reis'
map.
You will, most likely, get responses that run down the map and Hapgood.  
Do your own reading and research and draw your own conclusions.
Rick Smith
______________________________________________________________
In article <323b73a1.19029940@news.netpower.no>, mortenm@mail.link.no
(Morten Mjøsdal) wrote:
>I have just recently found this group, and read some very interesting,
>but very contradictory  postings about this map. Who is right??
>Where can the uninitiated find a copy of this map?
>Web, books where?
>Please advise me to som info about this.  Thanks!
>
>Morten.

> Alan M. Dunsmuir wrote:
> > At the risk of heaping confusion upon complexity, it may even be that
> > "the Stewart" refers to his eponymous and hereditary function, as High
> > Steward to the King, rather than directly to his name.
I came in late. "The Stewart" as a reference to the head of the house is a
generic thing for clan chieftains in Scotland. On the other hand, the
surname "Stewart" does indeed derive from a title. The family name had been
FitzAlan. The ninth of their hereditary Lord High Stewards married the only
sister of King David II Bruce, who died childless. Why they took the name
Stewart rather than FitzAlan as their dynastic name I do not know, but all
their Scottish cousins followed their example. When Mary Queen of Scots
lived in France, the spelling was Frenchified to Stuart, whcih was adopted
by her descendants but not by the collateral cousins of other branches.
The FitzAlans of England, earls of Arundel, kept their name. Their last
heiress married a Howard Duke of Norfolk; the present Duke of Norfolk and
Earl of Arundel is a FitzAlan-Howard.
Jean Coeur de Lapin

On Sunday September 15, 1996,
mortenm@mail.link.no (Morten Mjøsdal) wrote:
>I have just recently found this group, and read 
>some very interesting, but very contradictory 
>postings about this map.
More posts about the Piri Reis Map can be found at:
http://www.dejanews.com/forms/dnq.html
You have not read the half of it.  There is another group
of Piri Reis fanatics who claim that the Piri Reis maps
were made by space aliens.  They include best-selling book
writers, e.g. Eric Von Doniken and his "Chariots of the Gods"
and various paranoid flying saucier fans.  An example can
be found at:
"UFO/piri.asc"   http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/piri_asc.html
Also, there are some people who claim that the Piri Reis
is evidence that Africans found North and South America
long before Columbus.  Unfortunately, there is something
about this map that has generated all sorts of strange, 
eccentric, and loony ideas.
>Who is right??
That is a dangerous question to ask, as everybody,
including me, will claim that he / she is right.
>Where can the uninitiated find a copy of this map?
On-line Jpegs of the Piri Reis Map of 1513 can be found at:
http://www.skypoint.com/members/jerryp39/pirireis.htm
and
http://ephesus.tbtk.metu.edu.tr/oguz/piri.html
>Web, books where?
Some books, if you can find them.
Ozdemer, Kemal, 1993, Piri Reis. Baskent Ofset Ltd, 
Sti, Net Turistik Yayianlar San. Ve tic. A.s, Sifa 
Hamami Sokagi No 18/2 344000 Sultanahmet 
Istanbul, Turkey.
Svat Soucek, 1996, Piri Reis and Turkish Mapmaking 
after Columbus. Studies in the Khalili Collection of 
Islamic Art Vol. II, Oxford University Press.
Also, Hapgood has a good figure in his book:
Hapgood, Charles H., 1979, Maps of the Ancient Kings.
Chilton Books, Philadelphia.
Dr. Hapgood's book illustrates the Piri Reis map.  
Unfortunately, much of what this book 
offers are tired and outdated theories and ideas 
that have since been disproved by an immense 
amount of scientific research since his book was 
last published.
>Please advise me to som info about this.  Thanks!
Note that "Piri Reis" translates as "Admiral Piri."
Sincerely,
Paul V. Heinrich           All comments are the
heinrich@intersurf.com     personal opinion of the writer and
Baton Rouge, LA            do not constitute policy and/or
                           opinion of government or corporate
                           entities.  This includes my employer.
'Afterall, if the present is *not* the key to 
the past, it is at least *a* key to the past.'
   -Flessa (1993) in Taphonomic Approaches to
   Time Resolution in Fossil Assemblages (The
   Paleontological Society)

In article <51hojp$850@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, matthuse@ix.netcom.co 
says...
>
>In <51fee7$ies@shore.shore.net> whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
>writes: 
>>
>>In article <51etbe$ls1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
>matthuse@ix.netcom.co 
>>says...
>>>
>>>In <51e66i$15n@shore.shore.net> whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
>>>writes: 
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>Fladmark has shown that the Aleutian and Queen Charlotte islands
>>>>provided one of the earliest refugia extending across the northern
>>>>pacific to have been extensively populated by man.
>>>
>>>Steve,
>>>
>>>Aren't you overstating Fladmark just a tad???  I didn't think he had
>>>evidence for Paleoindians (i.e., earlier than Clovis) on Queen
>>>Charlotte.  I know you posted about that recent find described on the
>>>Sitka list, but there were still questions about that. 
>
>>
>>I don't think I described Fladmark as either Paleoindian or Clovis,
>>just early ( The sites are c 9000 BC). In addition to their age the
>>Clovis sites have very clearly defined characteristics to their tools
>>some of which do show up in Paleoindian collections though the 
>>Paleoindian sites have generally less clearly defined characteristics
>>to their toolkits.
>>
>>The point I wanted to make is that there are sites to the south of
>>beringa with older dates and more sophisticated tools which suggest
>>the migrations throughout beringa were generally of people moving 
>>along a southern and not a northern route.
>>
>>Fladmarks refugia might have been along the line of march of such 
>>a maritime route.
>
>Fladmark (1979) has only one site on Queen Charlotte dated to 8000 to 
>9000 _BP_ (not BC).   This hardly seems to be extensive or the earliest
>refugia.  The whole refugia concept is that these islands were
>unglaciated prior to 12000 BP and *could* have provided stopping points
>for the people who would become Paleoindians or Clovis culture around
>12000 to 9000 BP. 
>
>Are there other sites that push the dates back further?
>
>Regards,
>August Matthusen
Fladmark says that no primary cultural deposits predating c 9000 BP
have been found on the outer coast and that is not suprising.
I think the site you refered to was Skoglands Landing.
Hoffecker says the Paleoartic tradition cannot be reliably dated 
to earlier than 10,900 yr BP, though he cites a few of his own
discoveries in the 11,000 yr BP range. Of these the Tangle Lake 
sites are located just where the southern part of the Aleutian coast
runs into the mainland. 
Occupation of the Tangle creeks and Teklanika river sites are dated 
to between 10,150 and 8,400 yrs BP.
Broken Mammoth, just to the north of Tangle lakes at the mouth 
of Shaw creek is dated at 11,770 to 11,040 Yrs BP
>
Actually, I think Fladmark's point is that "all definitely 
pre 12,000 BP sites have been found far to the south of the 
glaciated area"
"An alternative initial migration roiute for early man may be
offered by a chain of sea levekl refugia around the North Pacific 
coast of North America"
"There are no known sites anywhere on the present land surface 
of Beringa dating between about 25,000 and 13,000 BP"
steve