Subject: Re: Immortal Emperor
From: "Alan M. Dunsmuir"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:32:43 +0100
In article <843064026snz@bozzie.demon.co.uk>, "\"Paul C. Dickie\""
writes
>Still, at least the BBC managed to smash large chunks from one edifice they
>helped to create -- the tall tales told by that arch-fake, Henry Lincoln,
>regarding Rennes le Chateau, Berenger Sauniere and the Knights Templar...
Yes - it was very enjoyable, wasn't it? Rarely have I seen a loon so
comprehensively hoist with his petard as these two latest "Tomb of God"
freaks.
Sean Connery was more convincing when he uncovered the code to the
entrance to the Venician catacombs in "Indiana Jones and the Last
Crusade", than they managed to be with their 'geometrical truth'.
--
Alan M. Dunsmuir
Subject: Re: Immortal Emperor
From: pcd@bozzie.demon.co.uk ("Paul C. Dickie")
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 16:27:06 GMT
In article <6tdJoKAnvAQyEwVp@moonrake.demon.co.uk>
alan@moonrake.demon.co.uk "Alan M. Dunsmuir" writes:
>In article <51olqo$97j@news.enterprise.net>, Adrian Gilbert
> writes
>>I am surprised noone has mentioned the BBC documentary that was shown in
>>Britain on Sunday about work going on in China with the tomb of the First
>>emperor,
>
>I'm not. A more over-hyped and underweight blurb for a commercial
>organisation's feeble attempt at mounting an Archaeology Exhibition
>would be hard to find. ("Roll up to the British Museum, everybody, and
>queue to see Rupert Murdoch's <>")
I do hope you didn't mean to draw comparisons (mean, vindictive, ruthless, etc)
between the 1st Emperor of China and Saint Rupert of Wapping? o-)
Still, at least the BBC managed to smash large chunks from one edifice they
helped to create -- the tall tales told by that arch-fake, Henry Lincoln,
regarding Rennes le Chateau, Berenger Sauniere and the Knights Templar...
< Paul >
Subject: Re: Egyptian junkie pharaohs
From: "Alan M. Dunsmuir"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:39:13 +0100
In article <323ff188.93025855@pubnews.demon.co.uk>, Gonzo
writes
>you are, of course, correct. It is an alkali, such as lime juice which
>is needed to get the correcty effect from the leaves. :)
Dong! Next please!
(1) Lime juice == citric acid - decidely NOT alkali. (Etymology
ultimately from the Arabic limah; cognate with 'lemon'.)
(2) Lime as in limestone, slaked lime, quicklime etc. (all implying 'a
compound of calcium'), most of which have alkali associations, has a
quite different etymology, ultimately from the Latin limus, 'mud'.
--
Alan M. Dunsmuir
Subject: Re: New Pharohs tomb found?
From: pcd@bozzie.demon.co.uk ("Paul C. Dickie")
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 16:03:24 GMT
In article
grenvill@iafrica.com "Keith Grenville" writes:
>> Saida wrote:
>> >Mike Yates wrote:
>> >> Fraud or not, it made the main national TV news here in UK. It was
>> >> said to have been discovered several decades ago by an Egyptian who
>> >> promptly bought the land and built his house over it. They did not
>> >> say if this was to protect it or to plunder it
Both, probably...
>> >> or why it has now come into the news.
The house has fallen down? o-)
>> >That's a good one--find a tomb and simply build a house over it, thereby
>> >hiding it from view, and get yourself a "bargain basement" (sorry, an
>> >Americanism) while you're at it! What I'm trying to say is--one can
>> >have a jumble sale, then, whenever one wants from the "cellar". If
>> >one's cellar has occupants, one merely keeps "mum" about it.
"Mummy", surely? o-) (I think you meant "mumb", HTH...)
>> >This fellow who built the house, his name didn't happen to be Rassoul
>> >by any chance?
Why "Rassoul"?
>It was also reported on South African radio news - only on one bulletin 0800
>last Sunday morning. Nothing else. If there's a house built on top of the
>tomb it cannot be in the Valley of the Kings!
The news reports here said it was about a mile from the Valley of the Kings
>The only place where that frequently happens is on the west bank at Qurna
>- and those are the tombs of the Nobles.
Let's leave to one side the matter of the body being from the XIXth dynasty.
The apparent discovery of a Pharoah's body in what may turn out to be a noble's
tomb makes one wonder if the identification of the body has been completely
mistaken (ie it's simply a noble that has been found), or if a Pharoah's body
was placed there, either in antiquity or more recently.
If it was placed there more recently, that might imply that there is another
cache of mummies elsewhere in the Valley; if it was placed there in antiquity,
it could either have been a hasty internment like that of Tutanhkamun, or from
the work of the reburial commission that we know was responsible for some of
the caches of bodies in and around the Valley.
How certain is the evidence that the mummy was XIXth dynasty -- and is it
possible that one of the XIXth dynasty rulers was exhumed in antiquity from a
tomb that had already been partially plundered and interred in a noble's tomb,
some distance away from the Valley and its known riches?
< Paul >
Subject: Re: Conjectures about cultural contact
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 15:29:47 GMT
Paul (Kekai) Manansala (sac51900@saclink3.csus.edu) wrote:
[Yuri:]
: : >And to Thomas I say that one side (the side of trans-Pacific diffusion)
: : >has mountains of solid scientific evidence supporting it. I've presented
: : >quite a bit of this in sci.arch. There's been plenty of idiotic sneering
: : >but few persuasive rebuttals. Those who tried only betrayed their quite
: : >remarkable ignorance of the matter, of the evidence, and of the debates in
: : >the field.
[Someone else:]
: : The Polynesians have had no connection with South America.
: : Were this so then there would be pottery and metalworking throughout the
: : Pacific in Archaeological strata predating European exploration and
: : occupation.
I just want to clarify what I said before:
There WAS very ancient pre-European pottery on many Polynesian islands.
Lapita ware, from about 4,000 pb.
Yuri.
: That's not a valid argument. At least if you believe those who suggest
: Viking contact with the new world. If Vikings came to the New World
: and returned to tell stories, where are the new world crops and artifacts?
: Why no metal working or Viking artifacts, culture, language, etc. in the
: New World? Negative evidence does not prove anything. Polynesians are
: also missing many cultural artifacts from areas of Asia, both insular and
: mainland, and even the Western Pacific from whence they came. What
: would be important is positive evidence of contact. I'm simply
: referring though to contact, and not the type of cultural influence
: suggested by Yuri.
--
#% Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto %#
-- a webpage like any other... http://www.io.org/~yuku --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness === W. Allen
Subject: Denial of Culture, or Conjectures about cultural contact
From: Randal Allison
Date: 18 Sep 1996 17:05:03 GMT
yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
>Paul Pettennude (tekdiver@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: Please
>: remember, first and foremost, I am an underwater archaeologist and
>: the travel you are speculating about is something I have spent the
>: last 30 years studying.
>
>So, it looks like we have here one more specialist showing himself to be
>sadly misinformed...
>
>: I would love to find evidence of contact.
>
>There's evidence aplenty, Paul, if you only open your mind and look at
>it. I've posted plenty of useful bibliography here. Look at my webpage.
And the list of contributors goes on and on from here.
This is probably a Quixotic quest, but here goes:
Long before Romulus and Remus were whelped and the Great Wall of China was
but a picket fence, there were developing cultures in Mesoamaerica whose
civilizations rivalled and sometimes surpassed anything in the European
and Asian worlds. Yet for any number of reasons, perhaps some form of
cultural penis envy, there has been a 500+ year tradition of subjugation
of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and a gross denial of their
cultures.
The current thread has been focussed on the alleged importation of culture
by Polynesians (who seemingly have expanded of late to include the
Japanese and Chinese) to the poor brutes of the Americas. Like Barry Fell
and his phantastic Phoenician hypothesis, theories of lost tribes of
Israel, wayfaring Egyptians, Norse explorers, and travelling Africans
bringing culture and enlightenment to the peoples of Mesoamerica, the
Caribbean, and South America, the Polynesian sources are not trained in
ethnology and philology. Yet they persist in denying these people their
culture
Settlement and cultivation of crops like corn and squash dates bach to
7000 BCE in the Tehuacan Valley of Mexico. By 2000 BCE, settled
agriculture was the norm in Mesoamerica, and the Olmec began emerging by
1400 BCE. The previously proposed idea that the Olmec appeared seemingly
out of nowhere is as full of holes as saying the Romans appeared out of
nowhere--cultures develop and evolve over time, a truism taught in any
basic ethnology course. The peoples of Mesoamerica, the Caribbean, and
South America were thriving culturally long before most of the European
and Asian cultures began to emerge.
Sadly, this denial of the beauty and originality of the cultures of the
Americas has been used to support over 500 years of church and state
supported genocide, and continues in all of its vile glory
today. Particularly abhorrant is the continued insistence of supposedly
educated scholars to deny that the peoples of the Americas could have
developed a culture without input from afar. This denial has allowed for a
multitude of sins to be justified. After all, if their culture came from
someone else, then we are obviously improving their lives by bringing them
under our control and teaching them our culture, aren't we?? I would hope
that the inherrent racism is subconscious, but it is there all the same.
Demands that the people of the Americas only have culture because of the
magnanimous nature of the enlighted bearers from Polynesia, Phoenicia,
Africa, Japan, China, Cloud Cuckoo Land, outer space, and a host of other
locations only serve to promote a system of continued denial of indigenous
cultures. It is, though, a quest worthy of Don Quixote to disabuse the
cultural imperators of their notions that the peoples of the Americas were
uncultured brutes before they received enlightenment from travellers and
cultural gurus from Asia, Europe, Africa, or the ethereal world. Such
people will not and can not be persuaded otherwise.
--
_______________
Randal Allison, Ph.D.
---Never use a big word when a diminutive alternative will suffice---
Subject: Re: Leader of Mysteries
From: matts2@ix.netcom.com (Matt Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:06:37 GMT
In sci.archaeology "Ann McMeekin" wrote:
matt silberstein wrote:
>> You may have received poor treatment (though mostly it was jokes), but
>> you responded very quickly with your own pricklyness. This suggests
>> that if you were not expecting this kind of reaction, you have been
>> involved this kind of "dialogue" before.
>In as much as I will alwyas respond to any sort of unfair treatment
>(whether online or in real life) yes, I suppose that I have been involved
>in such "dialogue" before. I certainly did not set out to start a fight.
>If someone patronised you, I really don't think you'd just let it pass
>without coment.
Actually I have ignored a vast amount of patronizing, insult,
rudeness, and so on. It is interesting how different people take the
net. I am told that Ted Holden (a well known net kook), is very nice
in person. On the net he is very nasty. In person I tend to be a bit
sharp, on the net far less so. This is, in fact, one of the more
abrasive converstations I have had in a newsgroup.
As an example you can look to several thread in this group concerning
Native Americans. I had said things others considered offensive and
they responded to the offensiveness. I could have continued to
escalate and we would have had a fine nasty flame fest. But we would
not have communicated anything interesting. Instead we were able to
keep to the topic and learn.
I suggest that you try to ignore the first (and second)
patronizing/rude/nasty response you get. Pay attention to the content,
the style. With luck you both parties can get past the surface and
find the true disagreement below.
I know this probably sounds partronizing, and for that I appologize. I
do not claim any kind of superiority. When I do what I suggest in the
post I am going against my instincts, but it works.
Matt Silberstein
-----------------------------
The opinions expressed in this post reflect those of the Walt
Disney Corp. Which might come as a surprise to them.
Subject: Re: Pyramids and Aliens
From: Charlie Rigano
Date: 18 Sep 1996 17:03:27 GMT
"Ann McMeekin" wrote:
>I have never claimed to be an expert, instead being an interested amateur,
>and the reason I posted a message here was to try and find out a wider
>range of opinions, presuming, however much in error I may have been, that
>by posting to a newsgroup entitled sci.archaeology, I would find sensible
>and educated theories and responses as opposed to the infantile nonsense
>that it is very easy to find elsewhere.
Ann, if I remember your original post asked for information
- or sources - on aliens building the pyramids and you
hoped (identified above) that you would get educated
theories and responses in a group titled sci.archaeology.
I think you have to start by understanding that almost
everyone here thinks as a starting point that the basis of
your question - aliens built the pyramids - is extremely
silly. While the reponses you got may sound infantile - OK
they were - your question to almost every educated person
here is equally infantile and naive.
If you would like to present some evidence for your idea,
maybe some people would engage you in conversation.
Others won't
Charlie
Subject: Re: Conjectures/ contact..More Dialog
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 16:19:17 GMT
Paul Pettennude (tekdiver@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
...
: I think the contact occurred over the land bridge and that it
: happened is going to be proved within the next decade. The
: Indonesians used the same technique as the Maya to create books.
: Many of the beliefs in Mesoamerican cultures appear to have oriental
: origins. The Chinese and the Maya both see a rabbit in the moon, and
: the list goes on. I think the Polynesians were out of the loop, but
: others were not.
Paul,
Thank you for bringing up these instances of apparent diffusion. Rabbit on
the Moon is an interesting example of similarities in mythological
elements between the New and the Old World. It occurs widely in China.
More about this can be found in J. Needham, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES, a slim
volume that's a veritable goldmine of solid _scientific_ information.
Another reference: Gonzalez Torres, EL CULTO A LOS ASTROS ENTRE LOS
MEXICAS, Mexico City, 1975.
Regards,
Yuri.
--
#% Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto %#
-- a webpage like any other... http://www.io.org/~yuku --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness === W. Allen
Subject: Re: Pyramids and Aliens
From: matts2@ix.netcom.com (Matt Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:09:40 GMT
In sci.archaeology Vladimir Vooss wrote:
>Paul J. Gans wrote:
>>
>> Ann McMeekin (am@rtel.co.uk) wrote:
>> : > Ths is a troll, correct?!?!?
>> :
>> : Actually, no, unless asking for information is a troll, in which case
>rest snipped
>> I do not mean to preach, but if you were really interested in
>> how the pyramids were built, you might have asked.
>She did, Paul. That was the first thing she asked. People immediately
>jumped on her. And I do believe you're preaching - to the jump meisters.
>You've got to admit, this wasn't any fun for Ann. And it's Ann's
>sensibilities that are at issue here, not your'all's decision to decide
>whether a request is a troll and therefore quick meat to jump on. If the
>net, and this newsgroup has any resemblance to the human race, an
>apology to Ann wouldn't hurt.
To be precise she ask for information about alien and the pyramids,
not how they were built. There is an implied position behind the
statement. However, if it will make people feel better and help the
signal to noise ratio I appologize. I saw an opportunity for a funny
line and took it rather than consider it an valid request.
Matt Silberstein
-----------------------------
The opinions expressed in this post reflect those of the Walt
Disney Corp. Which might come as a surprise to them.
Subject: Re: Conjectures about cultural contact
From: froggy@praline.no.neosoft.com (Carlos May)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 16:54:11 GMT
Paul (Kekai) Manansala (sac51900@saclink3.csus.edu) wrote:
: George Black (gblack@midland.co.nz) wrote:
: : snip
[...]
: : Were this so then there would be pottery and metalworking throughout the
: : Pacific in Archaeological strata predating European exploration and
: : occupation.
: That's not a valid argument. At least if you believe those who suggest
: Viking contact with the new world. If Vikings came to the New World
: and returned to tell stories, where are the new world crops and artifacts?
: Why no metal working or Viking artifacts, culture, language, etc. in the
: New World?
Correction: Viking metal work has indeed been found, at L'Anse aux Medows,
in Newfoundland, Canada.
Before the discovery of this site, historians debated the chronicals
of a Viking voyage to somewhere called "Vinland"; there were various
opinions as to where this "Vinland" might be and how reliable the
chronicals were.
However archeology cleared up this matter. The Vikings may not
have stayed long (it may have been more a wintering station than
an intended permenent settlement), but they left plenty of phisical
evidence of their stay.
The Viking accounts mention some sort of grapes or berries they
found in the area, but nothing like maize corn. (I don't know if
it was grown in Newfoundland c. 1000 ad.)
: Negative evidence does not prove anything.
Agree. Nor does speculation without evidence.
: [...] What would be important is positive evidence of contact.
Absolutely. That's why Viking contact with the New World (albeit
very limited) is accepted from evidence, and other alleged
Pre-Columbian Old->New World contacts are not.
--
C.M. froggy@neosoft.com
Subject: Re: Conjectures..A Response To Ignorance
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 16:45:15 GMT
Paul Pettennude (tekdiver@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: > The Pacific is a "calm sea"? Really, Paul...
: For a guy who lives in Toronto (Yuri), this comment is
: understandable. I doubt if he's ever seen the Pacific ocean.
For the record, Paul, I've spent many years in Asia (Japan, China,
Thailand, India, etc.). So my acquaintance with Asian cultural traditions
is far from superficial. Also, I've spent considerable time is
Mesoamerica.
And, you may be surprised, I've actually sailed quite a lot on small
fishing sailboats off Philippine islands.
Good luck in your trying to prove that the Pacific (South or North or East
or West) is really pacific.
As far as the Enc. Brit., I never used it for my main reference. But,
frankly, I wouldn't want to argue against it, unless my case is
rock-solid. Unfortunately for you, yours isn't...
I can see I hit a raw nerve here...
I _tried_ to be polite in my reply to you, Paul, to start with. I found
some apparent errors, and I tried to correct them. I regret that my
criticism was misunderstood as personally motivated.
Paul, I am only interested in establishing the truth, and in honest
scholarship.
Regards,
Yuri.
--
#% Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto %#
-- a webpage like any other... http://www.io.org/~yuku --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness === W. Allen
Subject: Re: 200 ton Blocks
From: fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:04:37 GMT
Dear Steve,
To answer you queries and skepticism, first, just because Vitruvius
mentions the Romans using rollers or rolling blocks is irrevelant as
far as what techniques the ancient Egyptians used. Secondly, regarding
the ramps that were used, at the Temple of Karnak, at the rear face
of the First Pylon, a substantial remnant of the ancient mudbrick ramp
still survives. Enough of it shows, to indicate that it was compartment
built, with the compartments perhaps filled with sand or rubble. That
agrees with description of a construction ramp described in Papyrus
Anastasi I, the debate between two scribes, see Wente, Letters from
Ancient Egypt (Atlanta: Scholars' Press 1991). Further, Lehner and
Hawass have found part of the feeder ramp at Giza leading up from the
quarry, and it was indeed topped with tafla clay. Topped with tafla
is the key idea. The whole ramp was built of rubble, topped with the
tafla. Further, the video, This Old Pyramid clearly showed, at first,
the Egyptian masons trying to manhandle a square block by rolling it.
It did not work, at all. Later Lehner, principally, got them to try
the sledge, and it moved very well up the ramp they had constructed.
So, sneering at this film does not quite suit its presentation. Indeed
the Indiana mason also had to be convinced of the effectiveness of the
ramp. They also tried the old lifting machine thesis, using rockers
and levers to lift a block, and they had a near disaster with it as
the inserted timbers failed. The sledge on the wetted ramp moved easily
and smoothly and they also surmounted the problem of turning a corner.
Thus, the evidence that was developed by practical application in that
film showed that the ramp system combing a feeder ramp and then ramps
around the pyramid sides were feasable. Again, you queried the evidence
from the Meidum Pyramid, but it is key, for the lowest blocks of the
final casing are rough dressed, while those above them are smoothly
finished, certain evidence that the final polish was applied from the top
downward.
Its unfortunate that thus far, a relief or painting has not been found
showing a construction ramp, but for the reasonable minds, the Karnak
Pylon evidence is proof enough, while the Princess Idut and Deir el-
Bersheh relief and painting, albeit hauling statues on sledges across
a level surface, do indicate that sledges were normally used for hauling
large masses. Of wheeled vehicles, there is nothing until after the Hyksos
age. Also, of lifting cranes there is zero evidence. The shaduf that uses
a lifting device, was only introduced in the New Kingdom, based on its
representation in monuments. So, for the Old and Middle Kingdoms, there
is no other evidence, save the cited relief and painting, and the
unfinished monuments, like the Meidum Pyramid, plus the archaeological
evidence from Giza, where the fragment of a feeder ramp has been found.
So again, I say, study the monuments and the archaeological evidence,
and then assess the situation. Citing Roman practice and other speculation
about cranes, has no relevance for the Old-Middle Kingdoms when the
largest pyramids were built in Egypt.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago
--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Norse sailings to Vinland/Markland (Was: Deep Sea Sailing in Palaeolith)
From: "Edward C. Vincent"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:21:42 -0700
Kaare Albert Lie wrote:
>
> matts2@ix.netcom.com (Matt Silberstein) wrote:
>
> >>Another report says that in 1189 the Greenlander Asmund
> >>Kastanrasti came to Iceland in a ship that was nailed together
> >>solely with wooden nails, and bound together with sinews. Wooden
> >>nails instead of iron nails was unusual, and again indicates that
> >>Asmund's ship was built far away from available iron supplies.
> >>The most probable place would again be Markland.
>
> >Wooden nail? Not pegs? Do you have a reference for this since I would
> >like to read up on the technology.
>
> Well, pegs may perhaps be the correct word. My English surely
> could be better - sorry. I quote from Kaare Prytz, _Lykkelige
> Vinland_, Oslo 1975, p. 73:
>
> I 1189 kom grønlendingen Asmund Kastanrasti til Island med et
> skip som var "sømmet sammen alene med trenagler, bortsett fra at
> det også var bundet sammen med sener".
>
> The word is "trenagler", composed by "tre-" = wooden, and
> "-nagler" = nails. But of course, "pegs" may be a better
> translation.
>
> Prytz does not give any further reference here. But in the
> passage just before this, where he tells about the ship without
> anchor, he refers to the Skaalholt Annals of Iceland. I suppose
> Icelandic annals should be the place to look.
>
> I agree that an anchor could just have been lost or dropped, but
> the report of a ship built without iron nails (which were normal
> in Norse ships) suggests that both ships may have built in an
> area with enough wood, but with little or no iron available. One
> of them belonged to a Greenlander, the other was reported sailing
> between Markland and Greenland. There is a high probability that
> both ships were built in Markland. Or can you suggest another,
> more likely place?
>
> To build a ship, materials have to be sought out and dried before
> construction work can be started. This took time, and the
> shipbuilders would probably have to stay over the winter in
> Markland. As far as I remember, L'Anse-aux-Meadows was not
> inhabited that late (1189 - 1349) - correct me if my memory plays
> tricks on me here. If so, there should be remains of other
> Norse/Greenlandic dwellings in Markland waiting for the
> archaeologists to find them.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Kåre Albert Lie
> kalie@sn.no
The word is "trenagler", composed by "tre-" = wooden, and
"-nagler" = nails. But of course, "pegs" may be a better
translation.
Viel leicht es soll " wooden doll" sein. Danke fuer english schreiben.
Auf wiedersehen. Deine english schau gut zu mir.
Subject: Re: Conjectures ...Polynesians Were Not The Kind Of People Mom Would Have Liked
From: "Paul Pettennude"
Date: 18 Sep 1996 19:26:16 GMT
Gang,
Using Yuri's favorite source other than the late, not so great Joseph
Campbell, I plucked this little tidbit out of Britannica Encyclopedia
Online (god ain't computers wonderful)......
"Violence and cruelty were ever-present elements of Polynesian
cultures. This is reflected in their oral literature and in all
aspects of traditional life. Custom controlled and repressed direct
physical expression of aggression within the kin group and the tribe
up to a point, but there were definite limits beyond which only
violence could restore status or assuage injured pride. Punishments
for transgressing rules of behavior toward chiefs and high priests or
for violating various rituals incorporated ritual sacrifice and
cannibalism as major features. Intertribal warfare was extremely
common, particularly when population pressure had built up and land
and resources were limited."
How far do you think these guys could have gotten with this kind of
"attitude" in Mesoamerica. My guess is they would have been invited
for lunch, and been part of the floor show and some of the menu.
Paul
Yuri Kuchinsky wrote in article
<51h04o$91k@news1.io.org>...
> Randal Allison (rallison@mail.myriad.net) wrote:
> : yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
>
> : >The Olmecs, with their impetus for building large public
projects and
> : >monuments, appeared seemingly out of nowhere as a sudden burst
of very
> : >rich cultural influences unprecedented on the continent before
them. The
> : >hypothesis that they carried influences from Asia and Oceania
seems like
> : >a very valid one.
>
> : Given your hypothesis that the Olmec, a glorious, original
civilization in
> : the Yucatan from 1500--600 BCE represent some form of Asian or
Oceanic
> : culture in the Americas, what cities laid out in an axial pattern
in Asia
> : and Oceania did the Olmec draw from in the creation of San
Lorenzo around
> : 900 BCE and later in La Venta?
>
> I don't know. (Haven't looked into that.) Are you claiming that San
> Lorenzo was the first such city in the world? This would be quite a
> claim...
>
> : What similar forms of carvings are
> : represented in Asia and Oceania from this time period,
>
> Joseph Campbell's volumes (MYTHIC IMAGE, ATLAS OF WORLD MYTHOLOGY)
have
> not only the necessary references, but actual high-quality
illustrations
> of such very similar art-work from Asia and from the Americas,
Randy.
>
> : and what forms of
> : city-states existed in Asia and Oceania during this period?
>
> Many forms, I would say.
>
> : Additionally, your hypothesis that a group carried influences
from Asia
> : and/or Oceania to the lands of the Olmecs--and this has been
extended in
> : prior posts to cover contact with the maya, Toltec, Quechua and
Amarya
> : peoples of Peru, *et al*, would necessitate some long-standing
contact.
>
> Why not?
>
> : Given the propensity of Native American groups throughout the
Americas to
> : borrow those things from other groups which they feel are
beneficial, and
> : this includes new vocabulary, where are the linguistic reminders
in the
> : Central American groups' languages?
>
> Such linguistic reminders remained. I have to go back to the
volumes I
> cited already, but they've been pointed out among the names of
plants,
> and also names of sailing craft. The sailing craft of the West
Coast S.
> and N. American natives were _remarkably similar_ to the ones of
Asia and
> Oceania. The linguistic connections are especially clear in the
case of
> N. American West Coast tribes (Washington State and Brit.
Columbia). In
> this case, the diffusion is pretty well obvious.
>
> Regards,
>
> Yuri.
> --
> #% Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto %#
> -- a webpage like any other... http://www.io.org/~yuku --
>
> Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness === W. Allen
>
Subject: RE: Neanderthals and diet
From: ntrider1@msn.com (Tarzan The Apeman)
Date: 18 Sep 96 17:18:49 -0700
Yes- But I must ashamedly admit that my info comes from the show
Archaeology..... Lewis Binford, who is a top archaeologist in many
areas, including Neandertal arch., has discovered that the eating
patterns and remains of these patterns have followed a sharply
sexually-dimorphic pattern. In essence, Male neanderthals have been
associated with large amounts of fauna remains, bone and so-on,
whereas female neandertals have been associated with more traditional
gathering remains such as plant materials. Binford has hypothesized
that the Neandertals hunted and gathered in sex-restricted groups,
with the men hunting in groups and the women gathering in groups.
However, it appears that the men and women did not share in their
proceeds. This has lead Binford to speculate that female
malnutrition was what really caused the extinction of neandertals-
the women were subsisting mainly on nuts, roots and berries, which
were insufficient to maintain the body-weight they needed to ovulate.
The male neandertals were dining on megafauna- large ice-age animals
such as mammoth and sloth- which required a tremendous amount of
physical effort and group coordination to acquire. Female
neandertals seems to have been remarkable smaller than male
Neandertals- which could be a product of the same sexual dimorphic
tendancies that make differences in size in modern species, or it
could have been produced by the apparent difference in diet.
However, when the smaller stature of Neandertal females and the fact
that a group would most likely have had several infants with them is
compared to the robust size of a male neandertal, it makes alot of
sense that they werre not hunting megafauna.
I Hope this helps. Bob Ashby
Subject: Re: Denial of Culture, or Conjectures about cultural contact
From: jmccown@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James R McCown)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 20:20:22 GMT
In article <19960918.202122.93@heridoth.demon.co.uk>,
Mike Tittensor wrote:
>
>A minor point but when the Conquistadores finally hit mainland America, the
>first main culture they find is the Aztec Empire, an aberration among the
>history of the MesoAmerican civilisations, I hope we can agree. However, to
>the Conquistadores, it was a vision of hell.
>
>C16 was not renowned as a period of peace or gentleness in Europe. However,
>the nightmares of the Aztec temples coloured European attitudes to the
>American cultures for a long time after. Ritual cannibalism, the bizarre
>ritual of the flayed mendicants, the idols of blood etc. were not the best
>way to impress the Europeans with the validity of native culture.
>
>Cortez was seen as a liberator in Central America until the political
>counter-culture of the late C18-C19. Before their removal as politically
>incorrect, most towns would have had a statue of the man.
>
>I have no doubt of the native nature of MesoAmerican culture. I am very
>aware of its achievements. I am also aware of the unfortunate coincidence
>that made European civilisation's first contact a disastrous one.
>
>
> --
> Mike Tittensor
>(mike@heridoth.demon.co.uk)
Before anyone takes this the wrong way, I don't see the Aztec empire as being
particularly worse or better than any of the contemporaneous cultures anywhere
else in the world.
Secondly, I don't see the Aztec empire as an aberration. The historical legends
and archaeological evidence of the Toltec empire (approximately 900 - 1200 AD),
show many of the same practices. At the sites in Tula and Chichen Itza, they
have found the remains of skull racks (tzompantli) with thousands of human
skull fragments nearby. These are similar to the skull racks described by the
spaniards in Tenochtitlan.
In Chichen Itza, there are murals showing the loser of the ball game being
decapitated, and evidence of human sacrifice in the cenotes.
In Teotihuacan, there has been recent discoveries of human sacrifices near the
temple of Quetzalcoatl.
Apparently, these practices go back hundreds, if not
thousands of years in Mesoamerica.
From our perspective, there are many things about both the Spaniards and the
Aztecs that we would consider immoral today. But there is little to be
accomplished by passing moral judgement on people who have been dead for 500
years. Wasting time about who was or was not acting according to 20th century
standards will not aid our understanding of our ancestors.
Subject: Re: Conjectures about cultural contact
From: fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:39:11 GMT
Dear Paul,
In fact, there is evidence in North America of Viking Contact. At a site
called Anse aux Meadows, I believe, there is archaeological evidence of
a Viking Settlement, where a Viking coin was excavated, along with other
Viking cultural materials. As for the possible Polynesian contact with
South America, to the doubters, I would note, how then, did the sweet
potato, a distinct South American crop reach the Polynesian and Melanesian
cultures? South American Amer-Indians did not engage in cross ocean
voyaging, as far as is known, whereas, the Polynesian peoples are well
known for their epic trans-Pacific voyages in which they managed to settle
just about every habitable island group. Easily they could have touched
South America during one of those exploratory voyages, and if they made
contact, one thing they would have wanted was the sweet potato, as it was
a root crop, just like taro, with which the Polynesians were well
acquainted. That they did not pick up pottery and other traditions is
not very surprising, as pottery making, in fact, had died out among the
Pacific island cultures, because the makeup of many of the islands lacked
clay neede to make pottery, and pottery was space consuming and cumbersome
for the out-riggered ships they used to cross the ocean. Still, the sweet
potato is a tell tale signal, as sweet potatoes are distinctly a New
World crop developed by the Amer-Indians of South America, in particular.
Nor do I think it likely as did Heyerdahl that Amer-Indians sailed to
Easter Island. The settlement there, originally was distinctly Polynesian.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago
--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Learning Hieroglyphics
From: James Petts
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:34:06 +0100
In article <1379.6834T1371T2118@extro.ucc.su.oz.au>, Angus Mann
writes
>>I have a copy of K.T. Zauzich's book (translated by A.M. Roth) and a
>>translated and transliterated copy of the Book of the Dead. Are there
>>other translated/transliterated texts available inexpensively? Learning
>>from the the texts themselves seems more rewarding than rote memorization.
>> Also, can anyone suggest any other lexicons and grammars which are either
>>in print or are widely available on the used book market?
There are quite a number of student texts available, though not
necessarily very cheap.
The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, ed R.B. Parkinson, Oxford 1991
Middle-Egyptian Stories, Aylward M. Blackman, Bruxelles, 1972
A Reading Book of Second Intermediate Period Texts, ed Frank T. Miosi,
Toronto, 1981
Egyptian Reading Book, ed Adriaan de Buck, Leiden, 1977
The Story of King Kheops and the Magicians, Aylward M. Blackman,
Reading, 1988
Textes de la Premiere Periode Intermediaire et de la XIeme Dynastie,
J.J.Clere et J. Vandier, Bruxelles, 1982 (if you know French).
There is also a ccopy of The Autobiography of Weni on line, but I don't
have the URL right now.
There is an excellellent new teaching grammar, not yet published
officially. However, if you can find the email address of James E. Hoch
at the University of Toronto and email him you might get some luck.
I have also heard good things about Middle Egyptian: An Introduction by
Gertie Englund, Uppsala, 1995. However, I couldn't get on with it: it
seemed just like a condensate of Gardiner, which I found too difficult
(plus although it is the seminal text, is now somewhat dated compared
to, say, Hoch)
Very useful dictionaries are Raymond O. Faulkner, A Concise Dictionary
of Middle Egyptian, Oxford, 1988 and the reverse English-Egyptian
version by David Shennum, Malibu 1977.
--
James
"I'd rather fall off Ilustrada than ride any other horse!"
Subject: Re: Denial of Culture, or Conjectures about cultural contact
From: mike@heridoth.demon.co.uk (Mike Tittensor)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:21:22 GMT
A minor point but when the Conquistadores finally hit mainland America, the
first main culture they find is the Aztec Empire, an aberration among the
history of the MesoAmerican civilisations, I hope we can agree. However, to
the Conquistadores, it was a vision of hell.
C16 was not renowned as a period of peace or gentleness in Europe. However,
the nightmares of the Aztec temples coloured European attitudes to the
American cultures for a long time after. Ritual cannibalism, the bizarre
ritual of the flayed mendicants, the idols of blood etc. were not the best
way to impress the Europeans with the validity of native culture.
Cortez was seen as a liberator in Central America until the political
counter-culture of the late C18-C19. Before their removal as politically
incorrect, most towns would have had a statue of the man.
I have no doubt of the native nature of MesoAmerican culture. I am very
aware of its achievements. I am also aware of the unfortunate coincidence
that made European civilisation's first contact a disastrous one.
--
Mike Tittensor
(mike@heridoth.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Piri Reis, where to find map?
From: Henrik Bäärnhielm
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:46:42 +0200
Morten Mjøsdal wrote:
>
> I have just recently found this group, and read some very interesting,
> but very contradictory postings about this map. Who is right??
> Where can the uninitiated find a copy of this map?
> Web, books where?
> Please advise me to som info about this. Thanks!
>
> Morten.
The Piri Reis map is on show at the Museum of Anatolian Civilization in
Istanbul. Reproductions can be found in various books on the history of
cartography, possibly on the WWW. At my job at the Royal Library
Stockholm, I have a PhotoCD version (low resolution) which I could send
you by mail. In fact this map is notorious in much not-so-serious
discussion on the discovery of America, Atlantis etc.
Kind regards
Goran Baarnhielm
--
***************************************
Internet : Henrik.Baarnhielm@abc.se
Fidonet : Henrik Baarnhielm, 2:201/235
***************************************
Subject: Re: The Minoan Linear A Language?
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 23:09:47 GMT
In article <51n9ht$19h0_001@news.cyberix.com>, Berlant@dynanet.com says...
>
>In article , ayma@tip.nl wrote:
>>"Alan M. Dunsmuir" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Maurice Pope, in his 1975 book "The Story of Decypherment" end with a
>>>tentative 'family tree' of writing systems, which shows 'Aegean Scripts'
>>>and 'Hittite Hieroglyphic' as siblings, on a quite different branch from
>>>that occupied by 'Semitic consonantal alphabet' and its many off-spring,
>>>which in turn is separated very early on from the cul-de-sac branch
>>>labelled 'Egyptian Hieroglyphic'.
>>
>A different opinion was presented by Laurence A. Waddell in his lightly
>regarded "Sumer Origins of Egypt", which traces many early
>Egyptian hieroglyphs back to Sumerian pictographs -- in many cases
>convincingly.
There are some very striking similarities among the Sumerian
pictographs I have seen and both Egyptian hieroglyphics and
the Phaistoes Disk.
"dingra, an" is identical to Gardiner N14
and is identical to one of the glyphs on the phaistoes disk
"u4, ud" is very similar to Gardiner N27
"a" is identical to one of the glyphs on the phaistoes disk
"se" is identical to one of the glyphs on the phaistoes disk
"nig2, ninda" is similar to Gardiner V30
"du, gin, gub" is identical to Gardiner D58
That's six out of the nine pictographs I have
so far identified as equivalent to cuniform values
are essentially also congruent with Egyptian glyphs
and the glyphs of the Phaistoes Disk which was
found on Crete and can be identified as a
precursor to Minoan Linear A and B
steve
Subject: Re: New Pharohs tomb found?
From: Saida
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:31:03 -0500
Paul C. Dickie wrote:
>
> In article
> grenvill@iafrica.com "Keith Grenville" writes:>
> >> >This fellow who built the house, his name didn't happen to be Rassoul
> >> >by any chance?
>
> Why "Rassoul"?
The Rassoul family were the ones who had discovered the Deir el Bahari
cache of royal mummies, quietly selling their grave goods on the
antiquities market for several years before the authorities got wind of
it and made them devulge the location of their find.
>
> >It was also reported on South African radio news - only on one bulletin 0800
> >last Sunday morning. Nothing else. If there's a house built on top of the
> >tomb it cannot be in the Valley of the Kings!
>
> The news reports here said it was about a mile from the Valley of the Kings
>
> >The only place where that frequently happens is on the west bank at Qurna
> >- and those are the tombs of the Nobles.
>
> Let's leave to one side the matter of the body being from the XIXth dynasty.
>
> The apparent discovery of a Pharoah's body in what may turn out to be a noble's
> tomb makes one wonder if the identification of the body has been completely
> mistaken (ie it's simply a noble that has been found), or if a Pharoah's body
> was placed there, either in antiquity or more recently.
>
> If it was placed there more recently, that might imply that there is another
> cache of mummies elsewhere in the Valley; if it was placed there in antiquity,
> it could either have been a hasty internment like that of Tutanhkamun, or from
> the work of the reburial commission that we know was responsible for some of
> the caches of bodies in and around the Valley.
>
> How certain is the evidence that the mummy was XIXth dynasty -- and is it
> possible that one of the XIXth dynasty rulers was exhumed in antiquity from a
> tomb that had already been partially plundered and interred in a noble's tomb,
> some distance away from the Valley and its known riches?
>
> < Paul >
As I said in an earlier post, all the tombs of the 19th Dynasty pharaohs
are accounted for--but not the mummies! Ramesses I is still missing and
so is Amenmesse, a shadowy king who reigned between Merenptah and Seti
II.
>
>
Subject: Re: Denial of Culture, or Conjectures about cultural contact
From: "Paul Pettennude"
Date: 18 Sep 1996 22:33:20 GMT
Randal,
Way to go. This is beautiful. Everybody read this.
Paul
Randal Allison wrote in article
<51pa3v$3r8@news.myriad.net>...
> yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
> >Paul Pettennude (tekdiver@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> >: Please
> >: remember, first and foremost, I am an underwater archaeologist
and
> >: the travel you are speculating about is something I have spent
the
> >: last 30 years studying.
> >
> >So, it looks like we have here one more specialist showing himself
to be
> >sadly misinformed...
> >
> >: I would love to find evidence of contact.
> >
> >There's evidence aplenty, Paul, if you only open your mind and
look at
> >it. I've posted plenty of useful bibliography here. Look at my
webpage.
>
> And the list of contributors goes on and on from here.
>
> This is probably a Quixotic quest, but here goes:
>
> Long before Romulus and Remus were whelped and the Great Wall of
China was
> but a picket fence, there were developing cultures in Mesoamaerica
whose
> civilizations rivalled and sometimes surpassed anything in the
European
> and Asian worlds. Yet for any number of reasons, perhaps some form
of
> cultural penis envy, there has been a 500+ year tradition of
subjugation
> of the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and a gross denial of
their
> cultures.
>
> The current thread has been focussed on the alleged importation of
culture
> by Polynesians (who seemingly have expanded of late to include the
> Japanese and Chinese) to the poor brutes of the Americas. Like
Barry Fell
> and his phantastic Phoenician hypothesis, theories of lost tribes
of
> Israel, wayfaring Egyptians, Norse explorers, and travelling
Africans
> bringing culture and enlightenment to the peoples of Mesoamerica,
the
> Caribbean, and South America, the Polynesian sources are not
trained in
> ethnology and philology. Yet they persist in denying these people
their
> culture
>
> Settlement and cultivation of crops like corn and squash dates bach
to
> 7000 BCE in the Tehuacan Valley of Mexico. By 2000 BCE, settled
> agriculture was the norm in Mesoamerica, and the Olmec began
emerging by
> 1400 BCE. The previously proposed idea that the Olmec appeared
seemingly
> out of nowhere is as full of holes as saying the Romans appeared
out of
> nowhere--cultures develop and evolve over time, a truism taught in
any
> basic ethnology course. The peoples of Mesoamerica, the Caribbean,
and
> South America were thriving culturally long before most of the
European
> and Asian cultures began to emerge.
>
> Sadly, this denial of the beauty and originality of the cultures of
the
> Americas has been used to support over 500 years of church and
state
> supported genocide, and continues in all of its vile glory
> today. Particularly abhorrant is the continued insistence of
supposedly
> educated scholars to deny that the peoples of the Americas could
have
> developed a culture without input from afar. This denial has
allowed for a
> multitude of sins to be justified. After all, if their culture came
from
> someone else, then we are obviously improving their lives by
bringing them
> under our control and teaching them our culture, aren't we?? I
would hope
> that the inherrent racism is subconscious, but it is there all the
same.
>
> Demands that the people of the Americas only have culture because
of the
> magnanimous nature of the enlighted bearers from Polynesia,
Phoenicia,
> Africa, Japan, China, Cloud Cuckoo Land, outer space, and a host of
other
> locations only serve to promote a system of continued denial of
indigenous
> cultures. It is, though, a quest worthy of Don Quixote to disabuse
the
> cultural imperators of their notions that the peoples of the
Americas were
> uncultured brutes before they received enlightenment from
travellers and
> cultural gurus from Asia, Europe, Africa, or the ethereal world.
Such
> people will not and can not be persuaded otherwise.
>
>
> --
> _______________
> Randal Allison, Ph.D.
> ---Never use a big word when a diminutive alternative will
suffice---
>
>
>