Newsgroup sci.archaeology 47103

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Dear Frank,
At what point in history did the Polynesians become prodigious navigators?
Paul
-- 
***********************************************
Paul E. Pettennude, Ph.D.
Maya Underwater Research Center  
Miami, Florida 
(305) 554-1557/Fax - (305) 554-1616 
*********************************************** 
Frank Joseph Yurco  wrote in article
...
> Dear Steve and Yuri,
> 
> The Pacific Islanders, especially the Polynesians and Micronesians, were
> prodigious navigators. They had learned to navigate by the stars, also
> used wave patterns, and watched clouds, as well as bird formations. All
> these could give signals of undetected islands nearby. High islands are
> cloud covered at higher elevations, waves would bounce off islands, and
> certain birds were ranging far out to sea, while others stuck close to
> land. So, all these techniques were used in combination to reach and
> settle new islands. That's how Hawaii was found, Easter Island, as well
> as New Zealand, all settled by Polynesian navigators. The old
sea-voyaging
> canoes were large double out-riggered craft, very capable of long
voyages,
> and the Polynesians stocked such exploratory voyages with food and
plants,
> and water, not only sufficient to supply the voyagers, but actually
enough
> to plant a new settlement, were an island group located. Again, recently
> a recreated voyage was made from Hawaii, with a navigator trained by
> traditional methods in Micronesia. He had never previous travelled
outside
> Micronesia. Yet, he was able using the traditional navigation with a
> reconstructed Polynesian style sea-going craft, to sail from Hawaii, and
> plot a course for Tahiti, and make direct landfall in Tahiti. That
program
> was broadcast on a Nova PBS program a few years ago, but it was
especially
> impressive, as the group that made the voyage took along no modern
> navigational instruments, but trusted completely the abilities of the 
> Micronesian navigator. Alas, with the advent of modern travel, the old
> traditions are dying out, even in Micronesia, where they last survived.
> Fortunately, the Hawaii-Tahiti voyage awoke interest in the traditional
> sailing methods both in Hawaii and Tahiti, so at the eleventh hour,
> perhaps the old technique will not be completely lost. Otherwise the
> arch skeptic would laugh off Polynesian and Micronesian navigation and
> trans-oceanic sailing abilities. These abilities also lead me to believe
> that it is far more probable that the Polynesians touched South America,
> and there acquired the sweet potato, that in Pre-Columbian times they
> then dispersed through certain islands. The Marquesas Island Polynesians
> are the likeliest to have done this, as the sweet potato then spread in
> the larger high islands, and eventually became established in Melanesia
> and especially New Guinea. 
> 
> Most sincerely,
> Frank J. Yurco
> University of Chicago
> 
> 
> -- 
> Frank Joseph Yurco                           fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu
> 

> >
> >         Others are so removed that it's hard to believe they're cognates.
> >
> > Craig Urquhart
> 
> Don't forget the Egyptian words "mut" for mother and "da hems" (to
> dwell, to make inhabited).
> 
Since we made some headway on a thread called "Egyptian Tree Words" 
establishing that (at the very least) some Egyptian words for exotic 
things not found in European climes found their way into Anglo-Saxon, I 
will add a couple of items, one given to me by an Egyptologist 
acquaintance:
Baboon:  from Greek bebon from late Egyptian /b3b3/ from Middle/Old 
Egyptian /b3by/.  The Egyptian and the Greek refer to a baboon-headed 
god named "Baba"/"Babi" and not the animal itself.  The OED says English 
gets it from Latin, but the origin is unknown.  Looks good to me.
Also, there is an Egyptian word for monkey "gf" or "gfu", which might 
have been pronounced "gafu", hence the German "Affe" and the English 
"ape".  Come to think of it, monkeys and apes are often confused, so I'd 
better look up the source of "monkey".  My dictionary says "prob. of LG 
origin; akin to Moneke, name of an ape, prob. of Romance origin; akin to 
OSp mona monkey)
As there are no monkeys indigenous to either Greece or Italy or even 
Spain, let me dig further into this.

Thank you for the further details on Cahokia and the spelling correction. 
Although the "woodhenge" tracks the sun (and perhaps other things as 
well? I did not have enough time to visit it and inform myself more fully 
) I do not think it impossible that the people were unaware of the Milky 
Way. 
A very convincing book I am reading The Secrete of the Incas by Wm 
Sullivan  makes a very interesting case for the Milky Way as having its 
own unique place in Cosmology. And I believe that the ancient Greeks 
attributed the "Golden Age" to the period when the Milky Way was visible 
at the Vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
According to  Astronomy of the Ancients in the chapeter titled 
"The language of Archaic Astronomy" "In the first place, the 
establishment of the cismic frame, which forms the subject of the 
Timaeus, clearly belongs at the beginning of the Golden Age, the time 
when the Milky Way overarched the sky between Gemini (then the sun's 
place at vernat equinox) and sagittarius (then the sun's place at 
autumnal equinox)."

Thank you for the further details on Cahokia and the spelling correction. 
Although the "woodhenge" tracks the sun (and perhaps other things as 
well? I did not have enough time to visit it and inform myself more fully 
) I do not think it impossible that the people were unaware of the Milky 
Way. 
A very convincing book I am reading The Secrete of the Incas by Wm 
Sullivan  makes a very interesting case for the Milky Way as having its 
own unique place in Cosmology. And I believe that the ancient Greeks 
attributed the "Golden Age" to the period when the Milky Way was visible 
at the Vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
According to  Astronomy of the Ancients in the chapeter titled 
"The language of Archaic Astronomy" "In the first place, the 
establishment of the cismic frame, which forms the subject of the 
Timaeus, clearly belongs at the beginning of the Golden Age, the time 
when the Milky Way overarched the sky between Gemini (then the sun's 
place at vernat equinox) and sagittarius (then the sun's place at 
autumnal equinox)."

Thank you for the further details on Cahokia and the spelling correction. 
Although the "woodhenge" tracks the sun (and perhaps other things as 
well? I did not have enough time to visit it and inform myself more fully 
) I do not think it impossible that the people were unaware of the Milky 
Way. 
A very convincing book I am reading The Secrete of the Incas by Wm 
Sullivan  makes a very interesting case for the Milky Way as having its 
own unique place in Cosmology. And I believe that the ancient Greeks 
attributed the "Golden Age" to the period when the Milky Way was visible 
at the Vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
According to  Astronomy of the Ancients in the chapeter titled 
"The language of Archaic Astronomy" "In the first place, the 
establishment of the cismic frame, which forms the subject of the 
Timaeus, clearly belongs at the beginning of the Golden Age, the time 
when the Milky Way overarched the sky between Gemini (then the sun's 
place at vernat equinox) and sagittarius (then the sun's place at 
autumnal equinox)."

Thank you for the further details on Cahokia and the spelling correction. 
Although the "woodhenge" tracks the sun (and perhaps other things as 
well? I did not have enough time to visit it and inform myself more fully 
) I do not think it impossible that the people were unaware of the Milky 
Way. 
A very convincing book I am reading The Secrete of the Incas by Wm 
Sullivan  makes a very interesting case for the Milky Way as having its 
own unique place in Cosmology. And I believe that the ancient Greeks 
attributed the "Golden Age" to the period when the Milky Way was visible 
at the Vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
According to  Astronomy of the Ancients in the chapeter titled 
"The language of Archaic Astronomy" "In the first place, the 
establishment of the cismic frame, which forms the subject of the 
Timaeus, clearly belongs at the beginning of the Golden Age, the time 
when the Milky Way overarched the sky between Gemini (then the sun's 
place at vernat equinox) and sagittarius (then the sun's place at 
autumnal equinox)."

Thank you for the further details on Cahokia and the spelling correction. 
Although the "woodhenge" tracks the sun (and perhaps other things as 
well? I did not have enough time to visit it and inform myself more fully 
) I do not think it impossible that the people were unaware of the Milky 
Way. 
A very convincing book I am reading The Secrete of the Incas by Wm 
Sullivan  makes a very interesting case for the Milky Way as having its 
own unique place in Cosmology. And I believe that the ancient Greeks 
attributed the "Golden Age" to the period when the Milky Way was visible 
at the Vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
According to  Astronomy of the Ancients in the chapeter titled 
"The language of Archaic Astronomy" "In the first place, the 
establishment of the cismic frame, which forms the subject of the 
Timaeus, clearly belongs at the beginning of the Golden Age, the time 
when the Milky Way overarched the sky between Gemini (then the sun's 
place at vernat equinox) and sagittarius (then the sun's place at 
autumnal equinox)."

Sorry for the duplicate postings..the machine went on the fritz! My final 
comment was that if they were aware of the sun 's positions at solstices 
and equinoxes its not too far fetched to speculate that they might have 
related it to the larger frame work of the heavens.
Regards,
Nebt Khut Mau

In article ,
malloy00@io.com (MA Lloyd) wrote:
> Did I miss a recent film or pseudoscience assertion?  This 
>is the second time this month I have seen this.
It is possible that a NBC show called "Atlantis, In Search 
of A Lost Continent" was shown recently.  In it, David 
Childress makes an identical claim.  The same writer of
Charles Berlitz-like books also appeared on "Mysterious
Origins of Man" to claim that the Japanese fishermen 
had recently caught a plesiosaur.
Maybe, it is sunspots. :-)  :-)
Sincerely,
Paul V. Heinrich           All comments are the
heinrich@intersurf.com     personal opinion of the writer and
Baton Rouge, LA            do not constitute policy and/or
                           opinion of government or corporate
                           entities.  This includes my employer.
To persons uninstructed in natural history, their country 
or seaside stroll is a walk through a gallery filled with 
wonderful works of art, nine-tenths of which have their faces
turned to the wall.
- T. H. Huxley

In article , yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
> Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
> 
> George Black (gblack@midland.co.nz) wrote:
> : In article <51gtlj$6c6@news1.io.org>, yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
> : >George Black (gblack@midland.co.nz) wrote:
> 
> : >: There is no pottery in the Polynesian pre-European archaeology strata.
> : >: Had they (the Polynesian) visited the Americas (or even the Asian
mainland) 
> : >: pottery would havew been present.
> : >
> : >This is quite an interesting claim, George. Would you like to 
> : >substantiate? Or perhaps to withdraw it?
> 
> : Again. There is no evidence of pottery in the Polynesian pre-European 
> : Archaeological strata.
> : I have been to a number of sites here in New Zealand. There have never been 
> : pottery remains.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> What about Lapita pottery?
> 
> Yuri.
>
I'll bite Yuri.  What about it?
But cite sources, and ones that are not off the top of  your head.
Michael
-- 
Michael Paine
gmp@lamg.com
Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens.

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Atlantis in Mediterranean
Ray Haren  wrote:
in Message-ID: <5243nr$ivd@news.erinet.com>
>My theory on Atlantis is that it was a city that is now
>buried under the Mediterranean Sea.
>During the ice age the Med Sea was nearly completely dry 
>because the world's sea leavel dropped and the Atlantic 
>Ocean didn't reach the straights of gibralter.  The great 
>rivers of europe and africa only formed small salt lakes, 
>solar evaporation kept the water level down.  Its easy to 
>imagine cities on the edges of the deltas of the rivers.
>But then around 10,000 years ago the ice melted enough 
>that the Atlantic Ocean reached the straights of gibralter.  
>These straights are much shallower than the bulk of the 
>Mediterranean Sea 'valley'.  The result was a HUGE wall 
>of water roaring down the valley wiping out everything, 
>including Atlantis.
>So Atlantis didn't sink into the sea, the sea rose over it.
>Flame at will.  No, I mean flame at Will, and my name ain't Will.
I suggest that you before you get too involved with your ideas, 
you should read some of the published literature about it.  If you
do, you might find all sorts of problems with your theories.
For the "drying" up of the Mediterranean, critical papers include:
Cita, Maria B., 1982, The Messinian salinity crisis in the 
Mediterranean; a review. In Berckhemer, H., and Hsu,
K. J. (eds.), pp. 113-140, Alpine-Mediterranean geodynamics. 
Geodynamics Series. no. 7, American Geophysical Union. 
Washington, DC, United States. 
Clauzon, G., 1982, Le canyon messinien du Rhone; une preuve 
decive du "desiccated deep-basin model" (Hsue, Cita and 
Ryan, 1973) [The Messinian Canyon of the Rhone; a decisive proof 
of a "desiccated deep-basin model"; Hsu, Cita and Ryan, 1973.] 
Bulletin de la Societe Geologique de France. vol. 24, no. 3, 
pp. 597-610. 
Clauzon, G., Suc, J. P.,  and others, 1996, Alternate 
interpretation of the Messinian salinity crisis; controversy 
resolved?. Geology. vol. 24, no. 4, pp. 363-366.
Hsu, K-J., Montadert, L., and others, 1975, History of the 
Mediterranean salinity crisis. In: Leg 42, Part 1, of the cruises 
of the Drilling Vessel Glomar Challenger; Malaga, Spain, to 
Istanbul, Turkey, April-May 1975. Initial Reports of the Deep 
Sea Drilling Project. vol. 42, Part 1, pp. 1053-1078. Texas 
A & M University, Ocean Drilling Program. College Station, 
TX. 
Hsu, K-J., Montadert, L., and others, 1977, History of the 
Mediterranean salinity crisis. Nature vol. 267, no. 5610, 
pp 399-403. 
For the Pleistocene Mediterranean, the papers include:
Buckley, H. A., and Johnson, L. R., 1988, Late Pleistocene 
to Recent sediment deposition in the central and western 
Mediterranean. Deep-Sea Research. Part A: Oceanographic 
Research Papers. vol. 35, no. 5A, pp. 749-766.
Emeis, K. C., Camerlenghi, A., and others 1991, The 
occurrence and significance of Pleistocene and upper Pliocene 
sapropels in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Marine Geology. vol. 100, 
no. 1-4, pp. 155-182. 
Muerdter, D. R., Kennett, J. P., and Thunell, R. C., 
1984, Late Quaternary sapropel sediments in the eastern 
Mediterranean Sea; faunal variations and chronology. 
Quaternary Research. vol. 21, no. 3, pp. 385-403.
Nolet-Gilbert-J; Corliss-Bruce-H, 1990, Benthic foraminiferal 
evidence for reduced deep-water circulation during sapropel 
deposition in the eastern Mediterranean. Marine Geology. 
vol. 94, no. 1-2, pp. 109-130.
Perissoratis, C., and Piper, D. J. W., 1992, Age, regional 
variation, and shallowest occurrence of S1 sapropel in the 
northern Aegean Sea. Geo-Marine Letters. vol. 12, no. 1, 
pp. 49-53.
Sancetta-Constance, 1993, Oceanography; green sea, black 
mud. Nature. vol. 362, no. 6416, pp. 108.
Troelstra, S. R., and van Hinte, J. E., 1995, The Younger 
Dryas-sapropel S1 connection in the Mediterranean Sea. 
Geologie en Mijnbouw. vol. 74, no. 3, pp. 275-280.
The big mystery that I would like have answered is whether 
David Childress took the time and trouble to find and 
read any of these references before he proposal the exact
same claim on a NBC show called "Atlantis, In Search 
of A Lost Continent. "
Sincerely,
Paul V. Heinrich           All comments are the
heinrich@intersurf.com     personal opinion of the writer and
Baton Rouge, LA            do not constitute policy and/or
                           opinion of government or corporate
                           entities.  This includes my employer.
To persons uninstructed in natural history, their country 
or seaside stroll is a walk through a gallery filled with 
wonderful works of art, nine-tenths of which have their faces
turned to the wall.
- T. H. Huxley

The Greeks were johnny come lately  plaguerers!....

Where are the Ancient european civilizations? ...Where did they 
originate? That is a question that european scientists should  research
and answer, Of course it is well known that they are not a ancient people,
but , when did they come on the scene?...

In article <52979v$2d7@bart.rogerswave.ca>,
	craig.urquhart@utoronto.ca (Craig) writes:
>
>	I'm a bugaboo, but this complete misconception of the "New World"
>really bugs me.
>
>	taking umbrage at this slight against icelandic heritage is fine, but
>NO ONE discovered North America.  The "Skraelings", I'm sure, were a
>little surprised at being "discovered" by the Norse in iceland.
>
>	No Europeans "discovered" the new world.
>
>	A seemingly minor point, but when you consider the implications
>arising from and intent behind it, it's not minor at all.
>
>	You simply, absolutely, CANNOT discover some other human's home.
>Hello, that's not discovering, it's arriving.
>
>	But our entire cultural, social and historical mythology has been
>constructed in denying this basic fact:  there were people here
>before; they had, yes, civilizations (De Soto travelled on "roads" in
>what was to become the Misissippi Valley and the peoples of Southern
>Ontario mined metals for the states of the Ohio Valley), and to say
>that even the Beothuks were "discovered" dehumanizes them completely.
>
>	Iceland was empty, maybe, but Vinland was populated, as was Groenland,
>by people who weren't "discovered", like penguins or whatles.
>	It's not pedantic.  It's a symptom of a nasty, vicious disease.
>
>	How's that for umbrage?
>
Geez Loueeez! Its a matter of perspective isn't it?
I walk around the corner and find your cave. From
my point of view I've discovered a new cave. From 
your point of view someone has arrived at your home.
So what? How is that dehumanizing? How about an
analogy? I read your post and think I've discovered
a Troll. You submit your post and think you're 
being cute. It all depends on one's point of view.
-- 
===========================================
"A yawn may be defined as a silent yell" 
- G. K. Chesterton
Brigitte Darcel     __
LMPS Motorola      )o (--o    EXTERMINATE!
Schaumburg, IL     """"===-(  EXTERMINATE!
                  |::|:\      EXTERMINATE!
                  |::|::\
                  =======
brigitte@tr.comm.mot.com
===========================================

Olice, the only person  that is talking about racial elevation is you 
yourself, I have never discussed racial elevation. You  like other
eurocentrics cant stand the truth, and If what I say is poison ...then 
the root of the poison is the sick poisonous acts of  europeans by
exploiting the dead of another culture. I know the truth hurts, but deal
with!

andersda@cadvision.com (Danzig) wrote:
> Some years ago I saw an ad in an archeological magazine for replica
> Greek vases.  I'd love something like this.
> So, does anyone know much about this?  What company offers these
> replicas, what is their address, and are they still around?
If you go to Rhodes, in the old town there are several shops which
deal in these.   You can see demure Rhodian ladies busily painting red
and black figure replicas, many of them from the more outrageously
bawdy models.
-- 
Alexander MacLennan  sandymac@sandymac.demon.co.uk

In article <527alg$9c4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, wd&aeMiller;
 writes
>In  Jon 
>writes: 
>>
>>In article <51qlag$3sj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, wd&aeMiller;
>> writes
>>>In  Jon 
>>>writes: 
>>>>
>>>>In article <51n7v8$deu@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>millerwd@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Fly on a plane that follows little red lines, of course.  Then to
>>>>>make
>>>>>>>it interesting...the plane won't land...we'll just parachute out
>>>the
>>>>>>>back and happen to land about two trees away from the main
>entrance
>>>>>of
>>>>>>>the city.  Of course, we'll have to shoot a couple of nazi's on
>the
>>>>>way
>>>>>>> before we can get to the door where we shout the ancient
>password
>>>of
>>>>>>>entry :"Mellon!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hey, this could become a great screenplay.  hehe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Amanda :)
>>>>>>I am afraid it won't work.  You see Atlantis is underwater.  By
>the
>>>>>time
>>>>>>we got two tree away from the entrance by parachute, we would be
>>>very
>>>>>>wet, and, more upsettingly, dead.  Moreover, the only way that we
>>>>>could
>>>>>>shoot Nazis on the way down is if they were in a submarine! 
>Tricky
>>>>>this
>>>>>>one.  I suggest that the way forward is to get the Nazis drunk in
>a
>>>>>bar
>>>>>>in Cairo, then enslave them, and force them underground to dig a 
>>>>>>Transatlantic tunnel.  If we happened to come across any
>fossilised
>>>>>>Egyptian sailors on the way, whose remains were loaded to the
>gills
>>>>>with
>>>>>>cocaine, this would be a bonus.  But I'm not going until you agree
>>>to 
>>>>>>the thigh length rubber boots!
>>>>>>-- 
>>>>>>Jon 
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, well.  Ok.  As long as the thigh-high leather boots can be
>>>purple
>>>>>and green tye dye.  :)  As for the tunnel...good idea!  Perhaps we
>>>can
>>>>>use our enslaved nazi's for even longer working hours if we let
>them
>>>>>chop up and snort any mummies they find.
>>>>>
>>>>>Amanda
>>>>>:)
>>>>>
>>>>>P.S.  For all you people out there, who haven't followed this
>thread
>>>>>from the beginning....It's a JOKE!!!!   DOH!!!!   Laugh!  Have
>fun!!!
>>>
>>>>>Get bent!  
>>>>You mean - gasp, you're not serious. How can I find Atlantis without
>>>>you - who will wear the boots. No calm down Jon, surely she jests in
>>>>case any Nazis are looking in.  No, the mummies have to be preserved
>>>>to confound the Egyptologists.  Now any really expert archaeologist
>>>>should regularly confound Egyptologists - it's modern form of pig
>>>>sticking!
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>>>Jon 
>>>
>>>Sorry, but I had to be careful there for a day or two.  I heard the
>>>Nazi regime was reading our posts.  Can't let them in on the secret,
>>>now can we?  Darn, I really thought the mummy idea was good.  :)  I
>>>guess we'll just have to settle for Nazi slave labor.  Of course, I
>>>could always drive the heel of my boot into the back of the slow
>>>workers.....(grin)
>>>
>>>Amanda
>>It's OK, I have the whip for that - you only have to kick them for
>>fun, but watch out for the ones who enjoy it!
>>-- 
>>Jon 
>
>We'll just have to make them scrub the toilets.  :)
>
>Amanda
TOILETS!  Sub Atlantic cesspits.  You have to remember to leave loads
of clues, but no substantial information.  This is the essence of all
ologys. I eons to come, when our transatlantic tunnel to Atlantis
lives on a mountain peak somewhere a geologist will find some 
fossilised human shit, a jackboot, and build an entire theory about
the 20th century from it, then an archaeologist will find several
human fossils bearing whip and boot marks, dating from the same era
and come up with a totally different hypothisis.  Then the telly and
newspapers will get involved and there will be heated debates in learned 
societies - we are not only in the business of discovery, but creating
employment for thousands of otherwise unemployable people in millenia
yet to come.  It is an onerous burden Amanda!
-- 
Jon 

In <3248becf.6422417@news.mhv.net> Bob@io.com (Bob Sacamano) writes: 
>
>I am doing research on early primates, their evoltution, and pre-man.
>If anyone has information on this please e-mail me ASAP!
>Thanks
Just a thought...Why don't you go to the library?

On 21 Sep 1996 20:05:25 GMT, jwbst22+@pitt.edu (John W Bornmann)
wrote:
>Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
>
>In article <51vkav$ru7@orb.direct.ca>, Ashli Gasten  wrote:
>>I'm looking to find any sort of anthropology newsgroups/web sites out
>>there.  I'm editing our university anth department newsletter, so I'm
>>looking for interesting info to put in there.  Specifically, are there
>>any sites out there that have weekely "what's new" updates?  ANy leads
>>would be appreciated,
>>	-Ashli
>>
>
>
>				
>This information would be valuable to myself as well, and probably a number
>of lurkers.  If anyone has this, please post it, and don't hoard the 
>information . . . :)
>Angstboy
>
Run a search on any of the Search Engines, Yahoo, Excite, Magellan,
Alta Vista  etc... You'll find hundreds of sites.

tell you what bothers me!
where can i get that cement that they used in the pyramid. boy after  4000
years the arabs heated the stones and poored cool vinager on the  stones
to crack them.because they could not break the cement. im building a brick
wall and would like to have that cement and oh i forgot it was spread up
and down in between those 200 ton blocks at a 1/50th of an inch width
ammazing heh
jim denning

skupinm@aol.com (SkupinM) writes:
> The eccentric are *not* the danger: when their ideas do not stand the test
> of time, they are simply gone; 
Righhhhhhht. So, for instance, nobody sells, reads, or believes Churchward's
books on Mu.
> There are more dangerous things in life than the temporary disorientation
> caused by an idea that is a little off-center; a dainty fellow indeed who
> fears it!  The vertigo passes; common sense wins out.
The problem isn't personal disorientation. The problem is distorted
priorities, beliefs, and decisions made by the misinformed on the basis
of the misinformation.

I suggest you read Alexander Marshack and check
his bibliographic references for further leads.
I have a manuscript entitled "Upper Paleolithic
Symbol Systems of the Russian Plain: A Cognitive
and Comparitive Analysis" by Marshack which he
eventually published if you'd like a copy please
email me for further arrangement.
						Pete Rhode

I suggest you read Alexander Marshack and check
his bibliographic references for further leads.
I have a manuscript entitled "Upper Paleolithic
Symbol Systems of the Russian Plain: A Cognitive
and Comparitive Analysis" by Marshack which he
eventually published if you'd like a copy please
email me for further arrangement.
						Pete Rhode

Jiri Mruzek wrote:
> 
> Rodney Small wrote:
> >
> > Did anyone on this board ever read the above titled-article in
> > Analog magazine in August 1984?  The author, Christopher P. Dunn,
> > states that a granite hole and core found by Flinders Petrie in
> > the Giza Valley Temple in 1880 bore the following
(snip)
> The paper thin predynastic granite vases and bowls must have
> been bored out by the same technology. The rate of drill's
> descent through the stone is said to indicate huge pressures
> on it - about two tons. But maybe it indicates this ultrasonic
> drilling instead..
> Regards,
> Jiri Mruzek http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jiri_mruzek/
Yes, and I have a paper copy in my boxes.
E-mail me for more detail !
*************************************************************************
Richmann                                Richmann@sympatico.ca
  What does'nt kill you makes you stronger !
*************************************************************************

Please suggest readings of ancient peoples, 5,000 to 25,000 BP,
particularly the group called Indo-europeans, and what we now call the
Middle East.  I would also like to read theories regarding the dispersal
of humans from geographic origins, including the development sequences of
such things as tool making, transportation devices (boats, use of horses,
oxen), early weaponry, pottery, housing, etc.  What subgroups (library) of
anthropology should I be searching?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.  This is for a reading hobby
extending backward in time from the germanic tribes of about 2000 BP.

In article <3249AF73.24F2@pioneerplanet.infi.net>,
Saida   wrote:
... I 
>will add a couple of items, one given to me by an Egyptologist 
>acquaintance:
>Baboon:  from Greek bebon from late Egyptian /b3b3/ from Middle/Old 
>Egyptian /b3by/.  The Egyptian and the Greek refer to a baboon-headed 
>god named "Baba"/"Babi" and not the animal itself.  The OED says English 
>gets it from Latin, but the origin is unknown.  Looks good to me.
	The likely progression is (some sub-Saharan African language) -> 
Egyptian -> Greek -> Latin -> English; the word would have traveled with 
the animal.
>Also, there is an Egyptian word for monkey "gf" or "gfu", which might 
>have been pronounced "gafu", hence the German "Affe" and the English 
>"ape". 
	Old English has apa; I confess I find it hard to imaging a g 
being dropped so readily.
... Come to think of it, monkeys and apes are often confused, so I'd 
>better look up the source of "monkey".  My dictionary says "prob. of LG 
>origin; akin to Moneke, name of an ape, prob. of Romance origin; akin to 
>OSp mona monkey)
>As there are no monkeys indigenous to either Greece or Italy or even 
>Spain, let me dig further into this.
	There are simians indigenous to a *nearby* area -- northwest
Africa near the Rock of Gibraltar -- there is a macaque species called the
Barbary Ape that comes from there. 
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html

For those of us who seem to have been chasing our tails for the last week looking for information on the 
alleged tomb discovery in Luxor - this morning I found the following report, dated 19/9/96 at URL 
:
** Tom Heagy kindly sent me this information:
In the Sept 15 Chicago Tribune quoting Reuters as the source an article quotes an article that appeared 
in the Egyptian newspaper "al-Ahram" in their Saturday edition that a new tomb of a 19th dynasty king 
has been discovered "near the Valley of the Kings".  The tomb was apparently robbed in antiquity but 
still contains a sarcophagus with a complete lid both decorated in color.  The complete mummy was also 
found in its linen wrappings but was not in the sarcophagus.  Tomb also contains statues of the king and 
his wife.  Other goods found but not specified.  Most goods missing.
The tomb was apparently found 10 years ago by man who works for the antiquities service who hid it by 
building a house over the entrance intending to sell contents.  Not clear if he had actually sold 
anything. "The pharaoh has not yet been identified..."
A Reuter report sent to me by David Howell indicated that the king is 19th dynasty, and gave this 
further information:  Apparently the underground tomb contains a large hall with 10 columns, six of them 
marble, statues of the pharaoh and his wife and a burial chamber with the large red granite sarcophagus 
and the complete mummy nearby.  The sarcophagus is about six feet (1.84m) long and three feet (.92m) 
tall, has a complete lid and is decorated with hieroglyphic writing and drawings in colour, it added.  
The burial chamber lay at the end of a spiral corridor 328 feet long, leading off the pillared hall.
Any further information will be appreciated.**
The report doesn't say exactly where the tomb is located but I can only imagine it might be at Qurna 
which is where the Tombs of the Nobles are found, or in the Deir el Bahari area - both places are where 
some recent structures have been built.
----
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa

In article <3249AF73.24F2@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>, Saida
 writes
>Also, there is an Egyptian word for monkey "gf" or "gfu", which might 
>have been pronounced "gafu", hence the German "Affe" and the English 
>"ape".
Sorry - the German 'ff' seems to be a modification from an original Old
Teutonic 'p'.
-- 
Alan M. Dunsmuir

On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Dave Washburn wrote:
> Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
> 
> rmp@seanet.com (Norm) wrote:
> 
> >The Theran Volcano is the mother of the
> >Exodus myths.
I doubt it. I'd say that the Mt Sinai and the monotheistic 
worship on that mountain is.
[...]
> >3.exodus 14:24-25  The death of the egyptians in the 
> >"sea of reeds".  The volcano created a tsunami that inundated
> >the nile delta.  There is evidence all over the eastern med.
> >shoreline for a bronze age tsunami.  
> 
> First, the reference is wrong.  You mean 27-28.  Second, before this
> "tsunami" the text says that there were walls of water on either side
> of the Israelites as they passed through.  I'd love to hear how a
The best explanation I read about it comes from "La montagna di Dio"
("The mountain of God"), by E. Anati. He claims that the runaway
slaves (or prisoners escaped from labor camps; my comment) went
on the strip of sand separating the Sinai Peninsula from the
Mediterranean. Thus on one side you would have the Mediterranean,
and on the other the lake Sirbonis (actually a lagoon).
The area is and was full of quick sands, which would explain the
success of the runaways in not getting captured by the soldiers
at their pursuit. Surely if they took that road, there must have
been someone from that area among the runaways. Otherwise it would
it would have been too risky.
> volcanically-induced tsunami can do that.  If you're going to use a
> volcanic eruption to explain the story, you're going to have to use it
> to explain all of it (the notion of "later accretions," unless
> accompanied by actual documentary evidence, is a cop-out and not
> allowed).  Third, wouldn't it be convenient that such a tsunami "just
> happened" to occur at that very moment so it caught the Egyptians and
> not the crowd they were chasing?
The cute thing is that going toward Canaan they were going toward
another land in Egyptian hands :-)
Hence the hiding in the Sinai desert, and probably the trip to
the Mt Sinai as a an act of thanksgiving to One God worshipped 
there, and maybe as a safe haven/asylum.
[...]
> >Here is how the Exodus myth was created.
> 
> There's only one myth here, and I'm responding to it right now.
> 
> >The catalclysm was witnessed by many.  Their memories and descriptions
> >became stories told by the elders around the campfire meetings.  After
> >years went by, the old stories were woven into the story of Moses by
> >Canaanites who evoloved into the ancient Israelites.
> 
> There is no solid evidence that Canaanites "evoloved" [sic] into the
> ancient Israelites, or that they created a "story of Moses" or that
> such tales were told around campfires.  The evolutionary model for the
> origin of the Israelites has been discredited many times.
As far as I understand there is no difference among the artefacts
of the populations of Canaanites and Isrealites until 1200-1100 BC.
This would indicate that the two were either cohabiting and
mixing, or that they were one and the same.
The presence of Habiru since 2050-1950 BC in Canaan, if these
were the [proto]Jews would indicate that Jews were mixing with
Canaanites, i.e. "coevolved", and later "differentiated".
Go on, flames on.
Siro

I can't find the post I was referring to. I'll use this one.
On 23 Sep 1996, Timo Niroma wrote:
[series of comets at 180 years interval]
> And last but not least: if there ever was an Atlantis (drowned in 
> catastrophe of 2193), it was outside of the Mediterranian. Sources: 
> Plato, Oera manuscript and common (Occam) sense.
  ^^^^^
Plato uses, abuses and misuses info. He did that across all
his works and "defends" it by saying that the important thing 
is that people believe what they are told (use of the 'mythos'
in Plato).
There is non reason to believe that the material about Atlantis is any 
different. I doubt it that he invented it, just as he didn't
invent the story about Gyges, but he adapted it to fit his
theories of the perfect state.
I have very little doubt that Atlantis is the Minoan civilization.
Old enough to be poorly understood by the newcomer Greeks,
old enough to have been recorded by the Egyptians.
I don't know where you stand on this.
My $ 0.02 
Siro

Charles Packer  wrote:
: I guess now that I want to see just how circular the purported
: "circles" are. But even if we're conservative about what we define
: as art, as another followup by Paul Gans insists, the possibility
: that humanoids were making markings twice as far back as the
: French cave paintings _would_ have profound implications.
Aust. tv coverage of the find was quite extensive on the network I saw,
and there was a long shot of teh carvings in question. To my uneducated
eye they looked fairly circular and covered a more or less horizontal rock
face, covering several square metres. I dunno if I'd call it "art", but
then art is purely relative .. one persons art is another person's trash
.. and it does bear similarities with aboriginal rock paintings. Below
that level (according to the news report), were found stone artifacts
(chippers etc), which have been tentatively dated to between (I think,
from memory) 117,000 to 167,000 years BP.
David.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sooner or later, our sun will grow old and burn out, whether it happens
in 100 years or a million years. And it won't just take us with it. It
will take Marilyn Monroe, Buddy Holly, ... And all of this - ALL of this
would have been for nothing, unless we go to the stars. (Babylon 5)
	      Dragon code: DC.D f++ s+ h++ Csilv a++++ $+
	 dragon@triode.net.au (David Powell, Sydney Australia)
 	      http://www.triode.net.au/~dragon/www.html
     dragon@sleeper.apana.org.au - http://sleeper.apana.org.au/ ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <3249AF73.24F2@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> Saida  writes:
>
>Since we made some headway on a thread called "Egyptian Tree Words" 
>establishing that (at the very least) some Egyptian words for exotic 
>things not found in European climes found their way into Anglo-Saxon, I 
>will add a couple of items,
snip
>Also, there is an Egyptian word for monkey "gf" or "gfu", which might 
>have been pronounced "gafu", hence the German "Affe" and the English 
>"ape".  Come to think of it, monkeys and apes are often confused, so I'd 
>better look up the source of "monkey".  My dictionary says "prob. of LG 
>origin; akin to Moneke, name of an ape, prob. of Romance origin; akin to 
>OSp mona monkey)
>As there are no monkeys indigenous to either Greece or Italy or even 
>Spain, let me dig further into this.
I, for one, am not convinced that we all came to any agreement over supposed 
loans from Egyptian in Anglo-Saxon, but I would like to add a bit to the 
discussion on the possibity that Ape and the like come from Egyptian.  I have 
no idea what the origins of the word might be, but I think that it might be 
difficult to argue that it has to come from Egyptian.  The Egyptian word in 
question, however one transliterates it, is a "culture word" in the ancient 
Near East . It is fairly certain that it originated in some other language, 
and then was loaned into a variety of languages.  Hebrew kof, Akkadian pagu, 
and Sumerian ugubi are all reflections of this (Hebrew f is historically p, 
and note that in the Akkadian the consonants are inverted).  This is not an 
Afrosiatic root, but a foreign loan in all these languages.  If Ape would 
really be a loan, one would have to prove that it came from Egyptian and not 
some other language.  

Doug Weller (dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article 
:           jabowery@netcom.com (Jim Bowery) wrote:
: > Doug or Kathy Lowry (housekat@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: > : In reading articles, in the "Illustrated London News", from the twenties 
: > : the camber was opened then.  It consisted of a short tunnel dug under 
: > 
: > This was the chamber that was "discovered" at about the time West et al 
: > were scheduled to be allowed access to the Sphinx for their own work but, 
: > surprise, were put off indefinitely.
: > 
: > This has all the earmarks of disinformation.  Anyone who can't see that 
: > is intellectually blind.
: Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting the CIA invented time
: travel to go back to the 20s and fabricate articles in the Illustrated
: London News? Or are you complaining about the timing of the Lowry's
: post?
No, I'm suggesting that you are most aware of the least widely 
disseminated information concerning this chamber and least aware of the 
most widely disseminated information concerning this chamber.
I am suggesting also that the most widely disseminated information was 
that this chamber was supposedly "discovered" only about a year ago -- 
said "discovery" occuring at the same time that West et al were scheduled 
to be given access to the Sphinx -- but were, in fact, denied.
: Were West et al actually going to be allowed access to the Sphinx when
: qualified archaeologists weren't? 
Are you suggesting that NO "qualified archaeologists" were being given 
access to the Sphinx over the last couple of years?  *I* certainly wasn't 
making such a suggestion.
-- 
The promotion of politics exterminates apolitical genes in the population.
  The promotion of frontiers gives apolitical genes a route to survival.
                 Change the tools and you change the rules.

In article ,
   petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>In article <51uijt$fe7@shore.shore.net>,
>Steve Whittet  wrote:
>
>>The Egyptians concieved of living the life in Ma'at or doing what 
>>was right and proper as a way of becoming one with Neter (nature).
>
>	There you go again. English "nature" is from Latin natura, what 
>something has built-in, from nasci, to be born, ultimately from 
>Indo-European *gen@- "to generate, beget, ..."
Of course, nobody who understands the history, philosophy, or methodology of 
the empirical sciences would continually attempt to refute hypothesized 
cognations of real words by parroting as if they were axioms what are 
ultimately nothing more than different hypothesized cognations. This, 
notwithstanding the fact that the parroted cognations have been declared "O.K. 
to parrot" by the etymology board of the American Heritage Dictionary. 
The parroted cognations are still -- from a philosophical and scientific 
perspective -- far weaker than those they are intended to refute, because the 
former depend on one or more additional hypotheses: 1) the existence of one or 
more hypothetical words, roots, and/or forms thereof, parading under the 
euphemistic aegis of "unattested"; and, 2) the unobserved and empirically 
unverifiable action of one or more hypothetical sound shifts. 
So, to axiomatically invoke, as Mr. Petrich has, that a real word like Latin 
"natus" was derived from in the accepted way -- from a hypothetical form 
*gna-sko- of a hypothetical zero-grade form *gö@-sko- a hypothetical 
Indo-European root gen@- -- as a basis for refuting Mr. Whittet's hypothesis 
-- i.e., "natus" reveals its cognation with the semantically and phonetically 
very close Egyptian word Neter -- is nothing but shear and utter lunacy -- 
given especially the wealth of evidence that Egyptian words could easily have 
and did move prehistorically into the so called Indo-European lexicon.   
Mr. Petrich's repeated attempts to invoke the similarly hypothetical 
etymologies to silence Mr. Whittet should, thus, be viewed for what they 
clearly are: a manifestation of the linguistic community's long standing 
campaign to inculcate its students with a taboo that makes it very difficult 
for them to even consider the possibility that allegedly, extra-Indo-European 
words could possibly be cognate with -- but, especially, ancestral to -- the 
gerrymandered body of words that was used to frame the Indo-European theory in 
the first place.    
But, it should it matter one iota to anyone who does understand the 
aforementioned aspects of science how many supposedly intelligent people have 
been inculcated to believe that Mr. Petrich's parroted cognations are facts. 
I can state with impunity that facts never have been, are not, and never will 
be determined by the form of scholarly consensus that was used to frame such 
etymologies. If facts could be determined in such a way, we would all be 
walking around on a flat earth in a geocentric solar system.
Regards,
Steve Berlant
"Facts which at first seem improbable will, even on scant explanation, drop 
the cloak which has hidden them and stand forth in naked and simple beauty." 
Galileo Galilei, Dialogues Concerning Two New Sciences [1638] 
The great tragedy of Science is the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an 
ugly fact. Biogenesis and Abiogenesis, Thomas Henry Huxley [1870] 

GROOVE YOU wrote:
> 
> Where are the Ancient european civilizations? ...Where did they
> originate? That is a question that european scientists should  research
> and answer, Of course it is well known that they are not a ancient people,
> but , when did they come on the scene?...
Why ask us, Groove?  You have been telling us all along that they came 
into being when black people decided they wanted to look white!

In article <52coe9$t3g_003@news.cyberix.com> Berlant@cyberix.com writes:
>
>Mr. Petrich's repeated attempts to invoke the similarly hypothetical 
>etymologies to silence Mr. Whittet should, thus, be viewed for what they 
>clearly are: a manifestation of the linguistic community's long standing 
>campaign to inculcate its students with a taboo that makes it very difficult 
>for them to even consider the possibility that allegedly, extra-Indo-European 
>words could possibly be cognate with -- but, especially, ancestral to -- the 
>gerrymandered body of words that was used to frame the Indo-European theory in 
>the first place.    
One more conspiracy theory.  There is no such taboo, as the study of loans and 
language contact is a very active part of linguistics, as can bee seen, for 
example, in the explosion of syudies on creoles, etc.  Linguistics may not be 
a "science" in the sense of the paradigmatic sciences, but it does have a body 
of various principles, and competing ways if viewing things.  One of them is 
that you have to have a system of understanding lanaguage borrowing and to be 
able to provide regular correspondences, as well as logical historical 
explanations.  There are, and, more important, have been thousands of 
languages on this planet, and the idea that IE had to have borrowings from 
Egyptian, as opposed to any other language, is very strange indeed.  When it 
comes to proto-IE, it could not have borrowed from Egyptian, as the latter 
language did not even exist, not to mention the geographical problems.  As for 
later times, no one has ever doubted the masses of outside loans in various IE 
groups and individual languages, not to mention secondary borrowing between 
them.   Of all the languages that IE came into contact with, Egyptian could 
not have been very important.  Turcic language, for example have left a bigger 
impact, especially on Slavic languages.  This whole conspiray theory works 
only if one does not have a proper understanding of the whole area of contact 
linguistics.  

This story looks suspicious on several grounds. All the 19th Dynasty
pharaohs are known from monuments and inscriptions. We have mummies of
all but two: Ramesses I and Amenmesse. Both, however, have known tombs
in the Valley of the Kings. The tomb described in Al-Ahram, secondly,
is more akin to early Dynasty 18 tombs, such as Hatshepsut's which does
indeed have a long winding corridor. Dynasty 19 tombs were straight,
with a sequence of chambers ending in the burial chamber. All were located
in the Valley of the Kings, also. So, are we dealing with a post Dynasty
reburial perhaps, akin to the caches discovered in 1881 and 1901? As to
who this could be, that's the real mystery. Another problem in the story:
There's no marble in the Valley of the Kings, or in the Qurna necropolis,
anywhere, only limestone of varying quality. So, there's a mixture of
facts and fictions in this story, and a lack of squaring with the known
Dynasty 19 mummies, unless this be either a reburial of Ramesses I or
Amenmesse.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
-- 
Frank Joseph Yurco                           fjyurco@midway.uchicago.edu

I would like to ask a question that seemingly hasn't been asked here 
before. 
Re: the concentration of cocaine in the hair of the mummies. Is this
concentration consistent with, or similar to, the concentration of
cocaine in the hair of modern-day Andean farmers who chew the leaf? (This
concentration is probably quite low compared to persons using the
purified drug.) If so, then a hypothesis at least could be proposed that 
ancient Egyptians had access to leaf cocaine.
If the concentration in the mummies is higher than this, then the 
question should be asked if the ancients knew how to purify cocaine. What 
about ancient S. Americans? Did they know how to purify the drug?
Can someone help with these questions please?
Best,
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen

SkupinM (skupinm@aol.com) wrote:
: An additional artifact that proves the Polynesians' maritime prowess is
: the Malgache language, spoken on Madagascar; Malgache has been traced to
: Dayak areas on Borneo, so the distance of this westerly migration is
: comparable to the easterly one(s) correctly cited by Yuri in a previous
: post.  
Thanks, Mike, this is a valid argument, it seems.
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen

G. Michael Paine (gmp@lamg.com) wrote:
: > What about Lapita pottery?
: > 
: > Yuri.
: >
: I'll bite Yuri.  What about it?
Lapita pottery (from about 4000 bp) is found in Polynesia.
: But cite sources, and ones that are not off the top of  your head.
For beginners, I recommend Enc. Brit. Look in the index.
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen