Newsgroup sci.archaeology 47143

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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: 2200 BC -- From: timo.niroma@tilmari.pp.fi (Timo Niroma)
Subject: Re: Symbolism in the palaeolithic -- From: dbarnes@liv.ac.uk (Dan Barnes)
Subject: Re: OLDEST AUSTRALIAN ROCK ART -- From: dbarnes@liv.ac.uk (Dan Barnes)
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: Saida
Subject: Re: Replica artifacts? Greek vases -- From: kopfj@mailhub1.aimnet.com (John O. Kopf)
Subject: Re: bats -- From: adam c briggs
Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: Saida
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Replica artifacts? Greek vases -- From: ab292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Christopher John Camfield)
Subject: Re: 200 ton Blocks -- From: james denning
Subject: Re: 200 ton Blocks -- From: james denning
Subject: Death of I. E. S. Edwards -- From: Martin Stower
Subject: RE: Edgar Casey--The theory of civilization not yet known to man--undiscovered -- From: HoodNAssoc@msn.com (Ryon Hood)
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: Saida
Subject: Re: Edgar Casey--The theory of civilization not yet known to man--undiscovered -- From: millerwd@ix.netcom.com(wd&aeMiller;)
Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: pmv100@psu.edu (Peter van Rossum)
Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets -- From: pmv100@psu.edu (Peter van Rossum)
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: Saida
Subject: Chariots of da Gods?!! -- From: JRC@austen.oit.umass.edu (John Rice Cole)
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: piotrm@umich.edu (Piotr Michalowski)
Subject: Gordion furniture restoration -- From: Adam_Korn@brown.edu (Adam_Korn)
Subject: Re: Origins of Europeans.. -- From: grooveyou@aol.com (GROOVE YOU)
Subject: Re: Sphinx chamber -- From: August Matthusen
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark??? -- From: Saida
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words -- From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words -- From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words -- From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words -- From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)

Articles

Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 16:38:13 GMT
Peter van Rossum (PMV100@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
[Yuri:]
: >Peter, this is a MINORITY view in the field. To say that a capsule will be
: >picked up by a beachcomber seems so far-fetched... How are they going to
: >recognize this unknown plant? How would they know about its benefits?
: >
: >If the seeds germinated this still does not mean they will propagate on
: >their own. They need human assistance to survive. This is NOT a wild
: >plant!
: >
: >Sure a case can be made for your #5. But this will be pretty well on the
: >same level as saying the Aliens were depositing those plants from their
: >spaceships...
: Your responses are truly getting weak Yuri.  I give a full quote
: from a 1993 book on plant origins and dispersals by a second generation
: plant geographer and you respond with an assertion that he's wrong.
No, I didn't. He was not wrong. He simply listed a number of
possibilites, some of them quite impossible. 
BTW, your post gave a ref. to an article of 1968, didn't it? Is this 
"recent"?
: How about you demonstrate that this is a "minority view"?
This is my impression based on my reading in the area. It would be more
difficult to show conclusively which view is mainstream. 
: Or how about
: you give any kind of recent research that refutes the possibility of
: a natural dispersal? 
This is easy to find. I will post more info in the separate post today.
: Why don't you write to Dr. Sauer and explain to
: him that he doesn't know what he's talking about?  I've provided you
: with current research, all you seem to counter with is a basic, "I don't
: want to believe it." If you won't research and support your points with
: accurate data I suggest you leave archaeology to those of who will.
Keep blowing hot air, Peter, and see if it will help your case...
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen
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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 15:59:27 GMT
George Black (gblack@midland.co.nz) wrote:
[Yuri:]
: >If the seeds germinated this still does not mean they will propagate on 
: >their own. They need human assistance to survive. This is NOT a wild 
: >plant!
: Do you mean to say that this plant had no origin in the wild??
I think you should learn about the basic difference between a cultigen 
and a wild plant.
Many cultigens will not be able to survive in the wild without human 
protection. The local vegetation will overwhelm and supplant them.
Yuri.
: The Maori bought with them the Kumera. This root requires a lot of attention 
: if you want a good plentiful crop. Otherwise it will grow on its own
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen
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Subject: Re: 2200 BC
From: timo.niroma@tilmari.pp.fi (Timo Niroma)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 14:20:03 GMT
In article , Siro 
Trevisanato  says:
>
>I can't find the post I was referring to. I'll use this one.
>
>On 23 Sep 1996, Timo Niroma wrote:
>
>[series of comets at 180 years interval]
>
>> And last but not least: if there ever was an Atlantis (drowned in 
>> catastrophe of 2193), it was outside of the Mediterranian. Sources: 
>> Plato, Oera manuscript and common (Occam) sense.
>  ^^^^^
>
>Plato uses, abuses and misuses info. He did that across all
>his works and "defends" it by saying that the important thing 
>is that people believe what they are told (use of the 'mythos'
>in Plato).
>
>There is non reason to believe that the material about Atlantis is any 
>different. I doubt it that he invented it, just as he didn't
>invent the story about Gyges, but he adapted it to fit his
>theories of the perfect state.
>
>I have very little doubt that Atlantis is the Minoan civilization.
>Old enough to be poorly understood by the newcomer Greeks,
>old enough to have been recorded by the Egyptians.
>
>I don't know where you stand on this.
>
>My $ 0.02 
>
>Siro
This is something I must answer immediately.
At the moment I am doing heavy comparative study about Plato: how the 
information arrived to him, did he manipulate it (and if, in what way and 
for what reason), did Solon remember the story correctly, did the priest 
in Sais tell an accurate or rogue story, is there something in the story 
that is impossible either logically (is it inconsistent) or compared to 
the scarse evidence we have, what legends may have connections to the 
story of Atlantis, etc. 
The first results indicate that Plato did not invent the story. Then 
there is the question if is related to the greatest catastrophe in 
mankind's history, the 2200 BC history, I already dare to say so after a 
three month's intensive research. And the question of the 9000/10000 
years. Are there two or even more stories involved?
Minoan culture was not the Atlantis culture. But Minoan culture may have 
borrowed something from the Atlantis (if it existed, and if it existed in
the 3rd millennium BC).
I'm deeply involved in the research now, and it make take some time 
before I get results that I publish. But this so big an issue that a 
great a delay of months or even years is worth while when studying a 4200 
year old catastrophe.
And catastrophe there was, it's not dependent on the issue whether 
Atlantis was involved or not.
Timo  
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Subject: Re: Symbolism in the palaeolithic
From: dbarnes@liv.ac.uk (Dan Barnes)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:01:55 GMT
In article <32471CB6.5F3F@stud.isv.uit.no>, aniemi@stud.isv.uit.no says...
>
>I´m currently writing an essay on the subject of the use of symbolism as
>social communication in the Upper Palaeolithic, i.e. the development of
>art; cave art and mobilary art. Does anybody have any refrences to
>relevant litterature or URLs, or any comments on that subject?
>
You could try:
Lindly, J. & Clark, G. (1990) Symbolism and modern human origins. Current 
Anthropology. 31 (3). 233 - 40.
This is well referenced and has lots of comments from leadind researchers.
You could also try:
Marshack, A. (1989) Evolution of the human capacity: The symbolic evidence. 
Yearbook of Physical Anthropology. 33.
Although I don't seem to have the complete ref for that one. If you need the 
pages numbers let me know and I'll send them.
	Dan
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Subject: Re: OLDEST AUSTRALIAN ROCK ART
From: dbarnes@liv.ac.uk (Dan Barnes)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:56:42 GMT
In article <52755l$mua@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sloan7876@aol.com says...
>
>Does anyone have the inside scoop on the 75,000 year old rock engravings
>and even older tools reported in the NYT on Saturday, Sept. 21? 
>
Try sci.anthropology.paleo or the Origins of Humankind site for further comment.
	Dan
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Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: Saida
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:58:25 -0500
Piotr wrote: 
> I, for one, am not convinced that we all came to any agreement over supposed
> loans from Egyptian in Anglo-Saxon, but I would like to add a bit to the
> discussion on the possibity that Ape and the like come from Egyptian.  I have
> no idea what the origins of the word might be, but I think that it might be
> difficult to argue that it has to come from Egyptian.  The Egyptian word in
> question, however one transliterates it, is a "culture word" in the ancient
> Near East . It is fairly certain that it originated in some other language,
> and then was loaned into a variety of languages.  Hebrew kof, Akkadian pagu,
> and Sumerian ugubi are all reflections of this (Hebrew f is historically p,
> and note that in the Akkadian the consonants are inverted).  This is not an
> Afrosiatic root, but a foreign loan in all these languages.  If Ape would
> really be a loan, one would have to prove that it came from Egyptian and not
> some other language.
Or it may have originated in Egypt and borrowed by the others.  Perhaps 
the Egyptians got it from another African people who brought them apes 
and monkeys, because I am not clear if such creatures are indigenous to 
Egypt.  Zoology is not a strong area with me, but I think someone will 
know the answer to this.  Still, who would have gotten the simians 
first--the Egyptians or those peoples you mention to the east?
I said I would do some research on the word "monkey" .  I had an idea 
that I would find this came from Egyptian and, sure enough, I came 
across the term "ma'akhau", which Budge gives as "a kind of animal".  It 
is spelled "owl, extended arm, plant, chick" with the determinative 
being the hindquarters of an animal with a long tail.  Since this 
determinative is present in nearly all Egyptian words denoting monkeys 
or apes (when the picture of the total monkey isn't there) I think this 
is the word I am looking for.  I am fairly certain the "ayin" sound 
represented by the "extended arm" was heard and or transliterated by the 
Greeks (and others) as a nasal.  This is documented variously.  
Therefore "ma'a" would become "mon".
Loren wondered how easily the "g" in "gaf, "gafi" or "gafu" would be 
lost to become "Affe", and "ape".  Actually the Egyptian glyph that 
begins this word (the one I call the little hearth) is not a very strong 
consonant.  It is thought to be pronounced between a "g" and a "k" 
(although Egyptian has a hard "k", too).  The next sign in the sequence, 
the "alif vulture" is, I think, another story.  Nowadays it is thought 
to represent the "r" or "ar" but, knowing the Egyptians, I think this 
was just pronounced "ah" or "aw".  In Late Egyptian, anyway, the "r" was 
seldom pronounced anymore.  IMHO the "alif vulture" was said in the 
exaggerated way that a very posh Briton would say "Cahn't do it, old 
chap" and that was what was heard more the the first consonant.
From what I have been able to gather about Egyptian pronunciation, I 
have the weird suspicion that it WAS, in many ways, very much like posh 
English intonations, except that it probably included sounds not used in 
English like the "ayin", although we don't know for sure what sort of 
"ayin" came out.  One notices that, in British English, the "o's", for 
example, are pronounced differently than our American one or from the 
"o" in other European languages (not including Scandinavian!)  Now 
ancient Egyptian is not even supposed to have an "o" but, in Ptolemaic 
times, a glyph supposedly pronounced close to an "o" was used for 
writing this vowel.  Maybe this was the equivalent of a BBC English "o".
I could say more but, let me just state, risking your derision, that it 
wouldn't surprise me somehow if the Britons of long ago, whoever they 
were, knew some Egyptians.  Not only met them but admired their way of 
talking (as we Americans admire the melifluous British accent and 
intonation that can make the most prosaic statements sound as beautiful 
as poetry), adopting it as a high-class accent of their own.
And wouldn't it be a hoot if one of those shadowy "Sea Peoples" were 
from the British Isles?  In fact, when I hear this term, I don't think 
of Phoenicians or Greeks, I think of the English (Britannia rules the 
waves) with their naval prowess.  In modern history, the British sailed 
into the Mediterranean in ships barely thought seaworthy by present 
standards, fought and won the "Battle of the Nile" and kicked Napoleon 
out of Egypt. And Napoleon, surely, had an immeasurably better navy than 
any sea-hating pharaoh could have assembled.
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Subject: Re: Replica artifacts? Greek vases
From: kopfj@mailhub1.aimnet.com (John O. Kopf)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 03:10:28 GMT
These are often offfered by the museums themselves; try the Deyoung
(San Francisco), Metropolitan (NY), or your local art museum.
If you search YAHOO for "antiquity" / "antiquities", there are a number
of firms that sell the *real* objects (not replicas) on the internet.
JK
In article <52c4df$5vig@elmo.cadvision.com>
andersda@cadvision.com (Danzig) writes:
> Some years ago I saw an ad in an archeological
> magazine for replica Greek vases.  I'd love something
> like this.
> 
> So, does anyone know much about this?  What company
> offers these replicas, what is their address, and are they
> still around?
> 
> Please reply to:  andersda@cadvision.com
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Danzig
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Subject: Re: bats
From: adam c briggs
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:49:21 -0400
 If you are interested in the study of bats and ancient ideas about them
consult Athropology and Roman Culture by Maurizio Bettini, published by
Johs Hopkins Press (English translation by John Van Sickle.)
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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 17:14:21 GMT
Peter van Rossum (PMV100@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote to Yuri:
: Or how about
: you give any kind of recent research that refutes the possibility of
: a natural dispersal? 
Here we go, Peter -- bits and pieces from my webpage, and some other 
stuff:
Needham clearly believes that the human-assisted transmission for sweet
potato is the mainstream view. I trust Needham. 
From Needham, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES:
"...in the case of the sweet potato (_Ipomoea batatas_) it is ... fairly
sure that there was a connection between S. America and Polynesia, though
whether the Peruvians took it, or the Polynesians came and fetched it,
remains quite unknown. But the transfer is accepted on all hands." (p. 61)
A wealth of material on this and other issues can be found in Riley, C.
L., et al, eds, MAN ACROSS THE SEA; PROBLEMS OF PRE-COLUMBIAN CONTACTS,
Univ. of Texas Press, Austin, 1971, p. 343. (Cited by Needham.)
I just got hold of this book, and it contains a whole lot about the 
potato.
**********
The following comes from SEED TO CIVILIZATION, by Charles Heiser (New
edition, 1990, Harvard U. P.). He is quite a famous scholar of the
origins of agriculture.
It should be noted that Heiser is no diffusionist. In fact he's often a
significant _opponent_ of diffusionists. Yet he accepts human-assisted
diffusion for the sweet potato! Significant. For other plants in question
he's careful to hedge his bets and to qualify his language.
      At the time of the European discovery of the New World,
      the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) was widely cultivated
      in tropical America and was also being grown on some of
      the Pacific islands. ... The presence of the plant on
      either side of the Pacific at such an early date poses
      several interesting questions -- among them, how and when
      did it get across the ocean? ... While either the
      introduction of seeds by some natural means or an
      independent domestication remain a possibility, it
      seems _far more likely_ that people were responsible for
      the introduction of the sweet potato from the Americas
      to the Pacific region. There are two ways in which this
      might have occurred. ... (p. 139)
I hope this answers your objections satisfactorily. He has a lot more on
this, so refer to the book if you're interested.
*********
More info about sweet potato can be found in the following work by 
Lathrap.
Lathrap is an anthropologist and archaeologist with a strong
interest in paleo-ethno-botany -- the study of the origins of
domestication of earliest agricultural plants. In 1977, he published
a seminal work, OUR FATHER THE CAYMAN, OUR MOTHER THE GOURD. It is
included in the important volume, ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE, C. A.
Reed, ed., Mouton (Proceedings of the IX International Congress of
Anthropological and Ethnological Sciences). This volume includes
many more important works about diffusion, including the article by
George C. Carter, A HYPOTHESIS SUGGESTING A SINGLE ORIGIN FOR
AGRICULTURE.
I hope these references will satisfy Peter, the stern taskmaster.
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen
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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 17:22:52 GMT
Peter van Rossum (PMV100@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
: Your responses are truly getting weak Yuri.  I give a full quote
: from a 1993 book on plant origins and dispersals by a second generation
: plant geographer and you respond with an assertion that he's wrong.
: How about you demonstrate that this is a "minority view"?
Well, what do you know, Peter... It seems like I found what you wanted to
see already! 
How about this quote:
"The current consensus is that the sweet potato originated in the
Americas and was taken thence into the Pacific in pre-Columbian times"
(Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356) [A long
list of references is given in a footnote at the bottom of the page.]
Next question?
Cheers,
Yuri.
--
             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness   ===   W. Allen
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Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: Saida
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:07:08 -0500
Alan M. Dunsmuir wrote:
> 
> In article <3249AF73.24F2@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>, Saida
>  writes
> >Also, there is an Egyptian word for monkey "gf" or "gfu", which might
> >have been pronounced "gafu", hence the German "Affe" and the English
> >"ape".
> 
> Sorry - the German 'ff' seems to be a modification from an original Old
> Teutonic 'p'.
> --
> Alan M. Dunsmuir
Okay, Alan, they say "monkey see, monkey do", but if the Egyptian monkey 
wanted to see himself, he could look in a mirror.  In Egyptian this is 
"miarar-hri" (probably pronounced "mi'ah-ri").  This meant "an object 
for looking at the face" the face part being "hri".  Will you now tell 
me that, ornate mirrors having been found in elaborate cases as far back 
as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, this word came from a people who at that 
time were nothing but barbaric tribes when the Romans arrived in 
"Germania"?
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Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 18:44:52 GMT
In article <324AC64C.2AE2@pioneerplanet.infi.net>,
Saida   wrote:
>Okay, Alan, they say "monkey see, monkey do", but if the Egyptian monkey 
>wanted to see himself, he could look in a mirror.  In Egyptian this is 
>"miarar-hri" (probably pronounced "mi'ah-ri").  This meant "an object 
>for looking at the face" the face part being "hri".  Will you now tell 
>me that, ornate mirrors having been found in elaborate cases as far back 
>as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, this word came from a people who at that 
>time were nothing but barbaric tribes when the Romans arrived in 
>"Germania"?
	OK. English "mirror" is from Old French mireor (Modern French 
miroir), from mirer "to look at" from Latin mirari "to wonder at" from 
Latin mirus "marvelous", ultimately from IE *smei- "to laugh, smile".
	And what was the Egyptian word for "mirror"?
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
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Subject: Re: Replica artifacts? Greek vases
From: ab292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Christopher John Camfield)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 19:09:31 GMT
John O. Kopf (kopfj@mailhub1.aimnet.com) writes:
> These are often offfered by the museums themselves; try the Deyoung
> (San Francisco), Metropolitan (NY), or your local art museum.
> 
> If you search YAHOO for "antiquity" / "antiquities", there are a number
> of firms that sell the *real* objects (not replicas) on the internet.
Of course, those of us with respect for antiquity might feel happier
buying replicas than feeding any potentially questionable antiquities
dealers.
Chris
--
Chris Camfield - ab292@freenet.carleton.ca
"You're nothing in the eyes of the world
 But you're going up and down in the elevator still..." (FINN)
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Subject: Re: 200 ton Blocks
From: james denning
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:49:12 -0700
Kevin D. Quitt wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:21:42 -0700, Jiri Mruzek 
> wrote:
> >A slew of amazing problems had materialized.
> >If you actually tried to move the Hadjar el
> >Gouble, I am sure that a slew of problems would ensue, just as well.
> 
> So am I, but we're not talking about one thing, moved once.  We're talking
> about an industry of transporting stones.  The workers would quickly learn
> the problems and find the solutions.  Ask the people who moved the machine
> how hard it would have been to move it the second time, and the tenth.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to say it's trivial or easy; it's not.  It's a hell of
> a lot of work, but it can be done in a straightforward manner by not an
> unresaonable number of people.
> 
> >I have never disputed that. Of course there are limits to what you say.
> >For instance: To mount wheels, you would have several choices like
> >hoisting the block up, or dig holes, and then roll the wheel out,
> >or build three sides - roll the block, add the fourth side.
> >The problem is in getting enough people connected to the relatively
> >compact block to carry out all the chores.
> 
> That's true.  But again, it's not just once, for one block.  It's a process
> repeated many times.
> 
> >Spooling towing lines on the smaller diameter block produces
> >a mechanical dis-advantage. The length of rope needed to turn
> >the block once, will be shorter than the distance traveled by
> >the wheel, which will also spin around once.
> 
> That's true, but it probably doesn't really matter.  It might mean you need
> 11 people instead of ten (whatever), but isn't insurmountable.  On a level
> surface I don't think it would make a lot of difference.  Uphill it might,
> but then again you can add more people.
> 
> >You would really need to spool your ropes somewhere near the outside
> >of the taller wooden wheel. This spells troubles for the project..
> 
> It would give a better advantage, but I don't think it's a kill.  I suppose
> one could add rounded blocks of wood that would turn the block shape
> cylindrical where the ropes are.  Without going out and doing with those
> tremendous blocks, it's impossible to say what all the problems are.  I am
> convinced, however, that this technique can be used to move, by human labor
> alone, much heavier loads than many people thought.
> 
> >> Once again, I didn't mean for this to be *the* explanation.  There have been
> >> other reasonable ideas posted.
> >
> >Such as?
> 
> For moving the blocks up the ramps, sledges or mechanical advantage from A
> frames could be used.  Lots of things could be; I haven't really looked at
> moving the directly up as opposed to rolling them up a ramp.  I still feel
> that the ramp is the most likely.
> 
> >Well, only on the side ramps skimpy on material usage.. One could have a
> >wide road atop a large-volume self-supporting ramp.
> 
> I was thinking not of a ramp that spirals up the pyramid as much as a
> straigh ramp at 90 degrees to one of the sides.  And of course, once the
> block is rolled roughly into place, there's still the problem of accurate
> placement; perhaps A frames were used here.
> 
> >With a large ditch along the planned route, you could slip a large
> >spooler onto the wheel, and thus regain the mechanical advantage.
> 
> That's what I was talking about, above, with the rounded blocks.  As I say,
> I'm not sure they're necessary
> 
> >Must I do problem-solving for the skeptical party? :)
> 
> Hey!  *You're* the skeptic in this discussion!
> 
> >I just meant that there is no limit to skeptics simply scaling Lo-Tech
> >up to any desired size.
> 
> I apologize for personalizing it.  And you're right, you can't scale
> technology very far.  That's what killed the Titanic.
> 
> >Wanna launch satellites into orbit?
> >Build a sloping ramp high enough..
> 
> Nah, just a tower, straight up.  But it seems to me that was tried, once...
> 
> >With no signs of such a ramp to the higher reaches of the Pyramid,
> >this subject becomes purely academical, and generally oriented.
> 
> As far as I know, the builders never described how they did their work.  Too
> mundane for the nobility to worry about and record.  My goal was to show
> that the materials can be transported via low-tech means, without magic or
> alien intervention.  I believe we've agreed on that much.
> 
> >We still can't duplicate the Pyramid with Lo-Tech methods and
> >materials.
> 
> Do you have any idea how much that would cost, to the labor unions alone?!
> 
> You have to be careful when applying math to artifacts so that it doesn't
> become numerology instead.  Someone once posted a wonder article on how his
> bicycle held all the mathematical, physical, and astronomical constants and
> ratios, and he was working on QM at the same time.  A real pity I've
> misplaced it.
> --
> #include 
>  _
> Kevin D Quitt  USA 91351-4454           96.37% of all statistics are made up
> Per the FCA, this email address may not be added to any commercial mail list
but when you concider the lentgh of time cheops live and the amount of 
stone it would be one stone every ten minutes that was quite a feat and 
to think cheops didnt like it he was buried in a valley furthur down the 
road
jim denning
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Subject: Re: 200 ton Blocks
From: james denning
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:45:18 -0700
because we have the story from the people who broke into th pyramid and 
the had one tough time doing it
Martin Stower wrote:
> 
> Jiri Mruzek  wrote:
> 
> >[. . .] There were no
> >roughly finished blocks in the Great Pyramid's mantle, [. . .]
> How do you know?  Most of them were removed some time ago.
> 
> Martin
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Subject: Death of I. E. S. Edwards
From: Martin Stower
Date: 26 Sep 1996 20:57:44 GMT
I. E. S. Edwards died on 24th September (source: Nigel Strudwick's Egyptology).
How sad that so recently he received such shabby treatment in the pages of
Keeper of Genesis/Message of the Sphinx.
Martin Stower
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Subject: RE: Edgar Casey--The theory of civilization not yet known to man--undiscovered
From: HoodNAssoc@msn.com (Ryon Hood)
Date: 26 Sep 96 20:57:27 -0700
Saw the same show on Discovery.  Cannot understand why the area 
underground is not being looked at.  If you hear any more please let 
me now
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: Saida
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:42:40 -0500
Loren Petrich wrote:
> 
> In article <324AC64C.2AE2@pioneerplanet.infi.net>,
> Saida   wrote:
> 
> >Okay, Alan, they say "monkey see, monkey do", but if the Egyptian monkey
> >wanted to see himself, he could look in a mirror.  In Egyptian this is
> >"miarar-hri" (probably pronounced "mi'ah-ri").  This meant "an object
> >for looking at the face" the face part being "hri".  Will you now tell
> >me that, ornate mirrors having been found in elaborate cases as far back
> >as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, this word came from a people who at that
> >time were nothing but barbaric tribes when the Romans arrived in
> >"Germania"?
> 
>         OK. English "mirror" is from Old French mireor (Modern French
> miroir), from mirer "to look at" from Latin mirari "to wonder at" from
> Latin mirus "marvelous", ultimately from IE *smei- "to laugh, smile".
> 
>         And what was the Egyptian word for "mirror"?
Just what I said, Loren ;-^ except that the "i" that I put at the end of 
the word was, if it actually existed at all, just the merest glottal 
stop and was probably not pronounced.  That actually brings the term 
even closer to our "mirror".  I knew when I wrote the "mirror" post what 
the French word for this article is.  But I don't think the French got 
their word from the Latin for "marvelous".  I don't have a Latin 
dictionary anymore (I must get one to keep up with you guys!) but, if I 
recall, the Latin word for mirror is something different--more like the 
German "Spiegel".
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Edgar Casey--The theory of civilization not yet known to man--undiscovered
From: millerwd@ix.netcom.com(wd&aeMiller;)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 22:51:35 GMT
In <3wOwiPAYGcSyEwlx@skcldv.demon.co.uk> Jon 
writes: 
>
>In article <527alg$9c4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, wd&aeMiller;
> writes
>>In  Jon 
>>writes: 
>>>
>>>In article <51qlag$3sj@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, wd&aeMiller;
>>> writes
>>>>In  Jon

>>>>writes: 
>>>>>
>>>>>In article <51n7v8$deu@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>>>millerwd@ix.netcom.com writes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Fly on a plane that follows little red lines, of course.  Then
to
>>>>>>make
>>>>>>>>it interesting...the plane won't land...we'll just parachute
out
>>>>the
>>>>>>>>back and happen to land about two trees away from the main
>>entrance
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>the city.  Of course, we'll have to shoot a couple of nazi's on
>>the
>>>>>>way
>>>>>>>> before we can get to the door where we shout the ancient
>>password
>>>>of
>>>>>>>>entry :"Mellon!"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hey, this could become a great screenplay.  hehe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Amanda :)
>>>>>>>I am afraid it won't work.  You see Atlantis is underwater.  By
>>the
>>>>>>time
>>>>>>>we got two tree away from the entrance by parachute, we would be
>>>>very
>>>>>>>wet, and, more upsettingly, dead.  Moreover, the only way that
we
>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>shoot Nazis on the way down is if they were in a submarine! 
>>Tricky
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>one.  I suggest that the way forward is to get the Nazis drunk
in
>>a
>>>>>>bar
>>>>>>>in Cairo, then enslave them, and force them underground to dig a
>>>>>>>Transatlantic tunnel.  If we happened to come across any
>>fossilised
>>>>>>>Egyptian sailors on the way, whose remains were loaded to the
>>gills
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>cocaine, this would be a bonus.  But I'm not going until you
agree
>>>>to 
>>>>>>>the thigh length rubber boots!
>>>>>>>-- 
>>>>>>>Jon 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, well.  Ok.  As long as the thigh-high leather boots can be
>>>>purple
>>>>>>and green tye dye.  :)  As for the tunnel...good idea!  Perhaps
we
>>>>can
>>>>>>use our enslaved nazi's for even longer working hours if we let
>>them
>>>>>>chop up and snort any mummies they find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Amanda
>>>>>>:)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>P.S.  For all you people out there, who haven't followed this
>>thread
>>>>>>from the beginning....It's a JOKE!!!!   DOH!!!!   Laugh!  Have
>>fun!!!
>>>>
>>>>>>Get bent!  
>>>>>You mean - gasp, you're not serious. How can I find Atlantis
without
>>>>>you - who will wear the boots. No calm down Jon, surely she jests
in
>>>>>case any Nazis are looking in.  No, the mummies have to be
preserved
>>>>>to confound the Egyptologists.  Now any really expert
archaeologist
>>>>>should regularly confound Egyptologists - it's modern form of pig
>>>>>sticking!
>>>>>
>>>>>-- 
>>>>>Jon 
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, but I had to be careful there for a day or two.  I heard the
>>>>Nazi regime was reading our posts.  Can't let them in on the
secret,
>>>>now can we?  Darn, I really thought the mummy idea was good.  :)  I
>>>>guess we'll just have to settle for Nazi slave labor.  Of course, I
>>>>could always drive the heel of my boot into the back of the slow
>>>>workers.....(grin)
>>>>
>>>>Amanda
>>>It's OK, I have the whip for that - you only have to kick them for
>>>fun, but watch out for the ones who enjoy it!
>>>-- 
>>>Jon 
>>
>>We'll just have to make them scrub the toilets.  :)
>>
>>Amanda
>TOILETS!  Sub Atlantic cesspits.  You have to remember to leave loads
>of clues, but no substantial information.  This is the essence of all
>ologys. I eons to come, when our transatlantic tunnel to Atlantis
>lives on a mountain peak somewhere a geologist will find some 
>fossilised human shit, a jackboot, and build an entire theory about
>the 20th century from it, then an archaeologist will find several
>human fossils bearing whip and boot marks, dating from the same era
>and come up with a totally different hypothisis.  Then the telly and
>newspapers will get involved and there will be heated debates in
learned 
>societies - we are not only in the business of discovery, but creating
>employment for thousands of otherwise unemployable people in millenia
>yet to come.  It is an onerous burden Amanda!
>-- 
>Jon 
My only comment today...hehehehehehehe :)
That and fossils of human skulls with piercings.
Amanda
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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: pmv100@psu.edu (Peter van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:07:47 GMT
In article <52ebhl$bnd@news1.io.org> yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) writes:
>Peter van Rossum (PMV100@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
>
>[Yuri:]
>: >
>: >Sure a case can be made for your #5. But this will be pretty well on the
>: >same level as saying the Aliens were depositing those plants from their
>: >spaceships...
>
>: Your responses are truly getting weak Yuri.  I give a full quote
>: from a 1993 book on plant origins and dispersals by a second generation
>: plant geographer and you respond with an assertion that he's wrong.
>No, I didn't. He was not wrong. He simply listed a number of
>possibilites, some of them quite impossible. 
O.k. so you didn't say he was out and out wrong.  You said that while
he maintains the natural dispersal theory can not be ruled out, you
claim its as plausible as the theory that the sweet potato was transported
by extra-terrestrials.  Why don't you write to him and tell him that, 
I'm sure he'll be much happier.
>BTW, your post gave a ref. to an article of 1968, didn't it? Is this 
>"recent"?
>
>Yuri.
That was the reference supplied by Dr. Sauer himself.  I put it in
since it was necessary in order to supply an accurate quote of
what he said.  Dr. Sauer has obviously has been researching the 
topic of plant dispersals since that time - and probably since his 
childhood since his father was Carl Sauer (also a plant geographer).
Peter van Rossum
PMV100@PSU.EDU
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Subject: Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From: pmv100@psu.edu (Peter van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:11:02 GMT
In article <52ee5c$bnd@news1.io.org> yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) writes:
>Peter van Rossum (PMV100@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Your responses are truly getting weak Yuri.  I give a full quote
>: from a 1993 book on plant origins and dispersals by a second generation
>: plant geographer and you respond with an assertion that he's wrong.
>: How about you demonstrate that this is a "minority view"?
>
>Well, what do you know, Peter... It seems like I found what you wanted to
>see already! 
>
>How about this quote:
>
>"The current consensus is that the sweet potato originated in the
>Americas and was taken thence into the Pacific in pre-Columbian times"
>(Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356) [A long
>list of references is given in a footnote at the bottom of the page.]
>
>Next question?
>
>Yuri.
Come on Yuri, this is a reference from 1971.  I don't see how this
proves that this is the current consensus view.  Note, I'm not saying
it *isn't* the current consensus, I just don't know if it *is* but
I haven't seen anything yet which directly addresses the question.
With regard to your other post citing people who favor the human
dispersal hypothesis, I too have seen these, and the authors you cite
do indeed favor human diffusion.  However, I have also seen other
references that favor natural dispersal.
I've been trying to reply to your e-mail to me on the topic but the
server here hasn't been allowing me to send it, so instead I'll
put the gist of my reponse here.
Have you seen any references where the author directly takes on the 
question of whether a natural dispersal is plausible or not and gives 
specific reasons for their acceptance, or rejection of it?  I spent 4 
hours in the library earlier this week looking in various sources. 
While some favored the human dispersal and some favored the natural 
dispersal, none gave specific reasons why they accepted, or rejected,
the natural dispersal alternative - they all just took a position on 
the matter without explaining their logic.
I also posted this same question to sci.bio.botany but as of yet
no one there has responded either.  So at present I do not know
if a natural origin of the sweet potato is a reasonable alternative
(as Dr. Sauer states) or if it is so implausible as to be ludicrous
(as you suggest).  I would also suggest that you do not know for
sure either but are merely relying on the opinions presented by
Needham and Heiser in their books.  
Until we can find some research which directly takes on the problem, 
it will remain an open matter.  I have done all I can to find such 
work (even if it disagrees with my position) but have not been able 
to find anything.  I will keep you informed if I find anything but 
without such research this question would appear to be stalled.
Peter van Rossum
PMV100@PSU.EDU
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: Saida
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:24:29 -0500
Loren Petrich wrote:
> 
> In article <324AC64C.2AE2@pioneerplanet.infi.net>,
> Saida   wrote:
> 
> >Okay, Alan, they say "monkey see, monkey do", but if the Egyptian monkey
> >wanted to see himself, he could look in a mirror.  In Egyptian this is
> >"miarar-hri" (probably pronounced "mi'ah-ri").  This meant "an object
> >for looking at the face" the face part being "hri".  Will you now tell
> >me that, ornate mirrors having been found in elaborate cases as far back
> >as the Old Kingdom of Egypt, this word came from a people who at that
> >time were nothing but barbaric tribes when the Romans arrived in
> >"Germania"?
> 
>         OK. English "mirror" is from Old French mireor (Modern French
> miroir), from mirer "to look at" from Latin mirari "to wonder at" from
> Latin mirus "marvelous", ultimately from IE *smei- "to laugh, smile".
> 
>         And what was the Egyptian word for "mirror"?
Hello, Loren, I'm BAAAAACK!  The Latin word for "mirror" is "speculum", 
chum, so why didn't the French, who took so much from Latin, just use 
that?  It is rather "marvelous" to me that they didn't.  
"Est-ce toi, Marguerite...."  Saida, *smeing* to herself as she sings 
the "Mirror Song" from "Faust".  Probably, at some later date, she may 
have the last *smei*--(laugh).
Return to Top
Subject: Chariots of da Gods?!!
From: JRC@austen.oit.umass.edu (John Rice Cole)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 22:17:57 GMT
Summary: 
I just saw a promo about an "ALL NEW EVIDENCE TV show tonight on
ABC--"Chariots of the Gods?" ("Did civilization reach Peru from outer space?")
Is this some attempt to "top" NBC's "Mysterious Origins of MAn" and CBS's
"Ark" shows???
Oy.
--John R. Cole
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: piotrm@umich.edu (Piotr Michalowski)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:01:37
In article <324AC441.6719@PioneerPlanet.infi.net> Saida  writes:
>
>Or it may have originated in Egypt and borrowed by the others.  Perhaps 
>the Egyptians got it from another African people who brought them apes 
>and monkeys, because I am not clear if such creatures are indigenous to 
>Egypt.  Zoology is not a strong area with me, but I think someone will 
>know the answer to this.  Still, who would have gotten the simians 
>first--the Egyptians or those peoples you mention to the east?
I am sorry, but that was not my point.  The fact that this is a word that was 
borrowed into various languages makes it unlikely that of all of them it was 
Egyptian, which had the least contact, that was the source of a European word. 
 Why specifcally posit Egyptian?
As a second matter, I would simply say that it is equally unlikely that the 
route of the borrowing was through Egyprian.  The fact that ugubi in Sumerian 
and pagu in Akkadian are attested early, when there was little, if any, direct 
contact with Egypt (as opposed to indirect trade), when no Egyptian names or 
loan words are other wise attested, makes it improbable.  I would also add 
that monkeys were considered foreign in Mesopotamia and that they most likely 
came from the east, hence the word is more likely to be Dravidian or from some 
other language family in Iran.
Return to Top
Subject: Gordion furniture restoration
From: Adam_Korn@brown.edu (Adam_Korn)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 02:06:18 GMT
To all sci.archeology readers:
I am a student at Brown University currently doing research on the Gordion 
furniture restoration undertaken by Robert Payton and Elizabeth Simpson.  
Unfortunately, I am having trouble finding information through the Brown 
library and would appreciate any suggestions and/or information you might 
have.  Thank you for your time,
Sincerely,
Adam Korn
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Subject: Re: Origins of Europeans..
From: grooveyou@aol.com (GROOVE YOU)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 21:07:07 -0400
Saida wrote :                                                             
                            >                        
>Why ask us, Groove?  You have been telling us all along that they came 
into being when black people decided they wanted to look white! <
                I am assuming that by this remark , you are insinuating
that the Ancient Kemetians were white by your typical euro-semantical side
stepping remarks. With that in mind , then how come these white Egyptians
didnt build thier civilization at home in the caucus mountains, or in the
eurasian steppes?...why go to a land of people that you hate to build your
civilization?                                             Once again I ask
the Question..........Where did the (to quote the Egyptians) peculiar
looking people of the earth originate from? and "When did they come on the
scene?...My question is sincere...
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Sphinx chamber
From: August Matthusen
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:50:39 GMT
In article ,
	jabowery@netcom.com (Jim Bowery) wrote:
>No, I'm suggesting that you are most aware of the least widely 
>disseminated information concerning this chamber and least aware of the 
>most widely disseminated information concerning this chamber.
>
>I am suggesting also that the most widely disseminated information was 
>that this chamber was supposedly "discovered" only about a year ago -- 
>said "discovery" occuring at the same time that West et al were scheduled 
>to be given access to the Sphinx -- but were, in fact, denied.
Jim,
I'm confused with regards to which "chamber" you are referring.  Is this the 
supposed chamber under the left front paw which has recently (by Hancock 
I believe) been described as a 9 by 12 meter rectangular room?  If so, Dobecki 
and Schoch described this anomaly in their _Geoarchaeology_ article in 1992 
and noted that this anomaly "is in the same area as the deepened weathering 
between the paws as observed on refraction line S4 and where the the Japanese and
SRI have placed a potential cavity."  As this anomaly has been known about 
for some time before J.A.West, is there a more recent chamber which was discovered 
last year or is the widely disseminated information years out of date?
Regards,
August Matthusen
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Subject: Re: Linguistic stabs-in-the-dark???
From: Saida
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:22:47 -0500
Piotr wrote:
> I would like to add a bit to the
> discussion on the possibity that Ape and the like come from Egyptian.  I have
> no idea what the origins of the word might be, but I think that it might be
> difficult to argue that it has to come from Egyptian.  The Egyptian word in
> question, however one transliterates it, is a "culture word" in the ancient
> Near East . It is fairly certain that it originated in some other language,
> and then was loaned into a variety of languages.  Hebrew kof, Akkadian pagu,
> and Sumerian ugubi are all reflections of this (Hebrew f is historically p,
> and note that in the Akkadian the consonants are inverted).  This is not an
> Afrosiatic root, but a foreign loan in all these languages.  If Ape would
> really be a loan, one would have to prove that it came from Egyptian and not
> some other language.
Piotyr, I guess I really don't understand why you are bringing Akkadian 
and Sumerian into this.  Egyptian and Hebrew have plenty of words in 
common, but I don't really see the commonality of the other words you 
mention.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 02:56:08 GMT
In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>
>        [A lot of stuff on unit-fraction decompositions...]
>
>        A rather interesting curiosity, but hardly Euclid's _Elements_. I 
>think it interesting that Mr. Whittet has yet to claim any Egyptian 
>originals for the _Elements_, any Egyptian text that looks as if the 
>_Elements_ had been copied from it.
>-- 
>Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com                      And a fast train
>My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
>Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
>
>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Milo Gardner 
To: Loren Petrich 
Cc: Steve Whittet 
Subject: Euclid's Book VII and Unit Fractions
This paper presents an informal p/q generalized fraction point of view, 
long proposed by Boyer and many other math historians as not having been 
known in Babylon, Egypt or Greece prior to 600 BC. The informal evidence
that is being presented was taken from the 500 AD era, the Akhmim 
Papyyrus, a time period when p/q was a known aspect of Classical 
mathematics. Two tables of unit fractions, n/17 and n/19, will be "read" 
in a manner that closely resembles Middle Kingdom exact innovations, as 
discussed in the First and Second Installments as found on 
1. http://www.teleport.com/~ddonahue/phresour.html and
2. http://www.seanet.com/~ksbrown/iegypt.htm
Please note the manner than 4/17 and 8/17 are computed, possibly by the 
Euclidean algorithm. Comments would be appreciated by number theory or
hisotrian types that may be able to read Appendix I data in another
manner.
What I see, considering p/q as an unsolved Middle Kingdom problem, as an 
aspect discussed by Richard Guy in his popular treatise on the subject, 
4/y will not be directly proven to have been calculated by a 3-term unit 
fraction. Nor will a 5/y or x/y unit fraction series be proven by 
induction, or any other modern number theory method.
To justify one basis for presenting this informal proof, I would like to 
cite, Makers of Mathematics, by Stuart Hollingsdale. Hollingsdale asks: 
why did 500 AD Egyptians choose the awkward 7/29 = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232' 
rather than the much simplier modern form of 7/29 = 5' 29' 145'?
Simply stated, Egyptians appear to have known and fully utilized:
              5/29 = 1/6 + (6*5 - 29)/(6*29), as the Akhmim P. taught
                   = 6' 174'
and adding,   2/29 = 1/24 + (2*24 - 29)/(24*29), as the RMP taught
                   = 1/24 + (12 + 4 + 3)/(24*29)
                     24' 58' 174' 232'
Thus           7/29 = 6' 24' 58' (174' + 174') 232'
                    = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232', as the Akhmim P. taught       
Given that this explanation may one day be confirmed, over 2,500 years of 
unit fractions history, a set of n/p tables, can now be outlined by two 
tables, n/17 and n/19, per Attachment I. 
Attachment I
This officially unsolved number theory problem originates from ancient 
Egypt, covers a period from 2,000 BC to 500 AD a period of 2,500 
years. The source document is the Akhmim Papyrus, a Hellene 500 AD 
to 800 AD papyrus, found along the Nile, as cited by Wilbur Knorr, 
Stanford History of Science Department, Historia Mathematica, HM 9, 
"Fractions in Ancient Egypt and Greece". Knorr's excellent paper 
includes several x/y tables, as Guy described them, such as n/17 and 
n/19. Both tables will be attempted to be "read" using rules that 
that may have primarily originated in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era.
 n/17   Akhmim P. Value   Ideas from 1650 BC Egyptian Fractions
 ----  ----------------  -------------------------------------
 2/17   12' 51' 68'          2 a - p = 7 [a = 12, divisors 4, 3]
 3/17   12' 17' 51' 68'      2/17 + 1/17
 4/17   12' 15'17' 68' 85'   (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
                             (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v)*
or                           (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
             3/17 + 1/17     (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v) + 1/17 
    5/17   4' 34' 68'           5a - p [a = 10, divisors 2, 1]
    6/17   3' 51'               6a - p = 1 [ new general form]
    7/19   3' 17' 51'           6/17 + 1/17
    8/17   3' 15' 17' 85'       (1/3 + 1/17)(1/1 + 1/5) from 4/17
    9/17  1/2 34'               5/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
    10/17 1/2 17' 34'           5/17 + 5/17 
    11/17 1/2 12' 34' 51' 68'  10/17 + 2/17 (12' 51' 68')
    12/17 1/2 12' 17' 34' 51' 68'  11/17 + 1/17
    13/17 1/2  4' 68'           9/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
    14/17 1/2  4' 17' 68'      13/17 + 1/17       
    15/17 1/2  3' 34' 51'       9/17 + 6/17
    16/17 1/2  3' 17' 34' 51'  15/17 + 1/17
   *u, v were NOT generally compute by the Euclidean algorithm
   That is to say, Euclid's Algorithm was not copied from
   Egyptian fractions, as a general rule. 
                                 On set of "decoding" of Hellene
    n/19    Akhmim P. value      unit fractions using 1650 BC rules
    -----  --------------------- ------------------------------------
   2/19  10' 190'               2a- p = 1 is one of three methods
   3/19  15'  20' 57' 76' 95'   (1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
                              or 2/19 + 2/19 - 1/19 [a = 30, divisors 6, 5]
   4/19   5' 95'                2/19 + 2/19
   5/19   4' 76'                2a - p [ one of three methods]
   6/19   4' 19' 76'            5/19 + 1/19
   7/19   3' 38' 114'           7a - p = 2 [ a = 3, divisors 2, 1]
                             or (1/2 + 1/6)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
   8/19   3' 30' 38' 57' 95'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
   9/19   3' 12' 38' 57' 76'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
  10/19  1/2 38'                5/19 + 5/17
  11/19  1/2 19' 38'            10/19 + 1/19
  12/19  1/2 12' 38' 76' 114'   11/19 + 1/19 with new 5/19 + 5/19
                                 [5/19 = 12' 76' 114', a = 12, divisors 3, 2]
  13/19   3" 57'                 3" = 2/3 and 7/19 + 7/19 - 1/19
  14/19   3" 19' 57'            13/19 + 1/19
  15/19  1/2  4' 38' 76'        10/19 + 5/19 
  16/19  1/2  4' 19' 38' 76'    15/19 + 1/19 
  17/19  1/2  3' 30' 57' 95'    18/19 - 1/19
  18/19  1/2  3' 12' 57' 76'    1/2  + 9/19 - 1/38
  ** the 2/3 fudge factor as noted for 3/19, 7/19 and 9/19 may be
     the most direct method to read these unit fractions.
  Readers may wish to consider these additional facts:
  1. Prior to 2,000 BC Egyptian fractions followed a binary structure,
     with the notation being called Horus-Eye, as noted by
     1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 + ... + 1/2n + ...
  2. Babylonian base 60 followed a very similar decimal fraction structure 
     such that zero was not required to be used. Only the fractions needed
     were listed. Thus no zero place holders were required, as our base 10
     decimal system was set down by Stevins in 1585 AD.
  3. By 2,000 BC Babylonian algebra has been reported by the majority of
     mathematical historians, such as Boyer in his popular text, that
     this rhetorical algebra is equivalent to our modern algebra I.
  4. By 1850 BC, as recorded in 1650 BC by Ahmes in the Rhind Mathematical
     Papyrus an exact hieratic form of fractions alters greatly from the 
     earlier inexact Horus -Eye hieroglyphic fractions.
  5.  History of Science authors like Neugebauer, Gillings and Knorr have
      cited a consistent composite number pattern, as I prefer to write as:
      2/pq = (1/q + 1/pq)2/(p + 1) where p and q are prime with p > q.
  6. Neugebauer notes the general algorithmic aspect to the composite
     form, as does Gillings for the multiple of 3 case, and as does
     Knorr and many others. Few if any used algebraic notation to
     describe these easy to read unit fractions.
  7. Disagreement between scholars is noted on two RMP levels for the 
     exceptions 2/35, 2/91 and 2/95.
     a. First is the three composite case exceptions 2/35 and 2/91.
      Knorr discusses the 2/35 and 2/91 in a friendly manner, while
      Neugebauer and Gillings appear to be critical to this view.
      Concerning 2/35 and 2/91, a well known pattern does emerge,
      refuting the conclusions set down by scholars, a form that is 
      clearly an inverted Greek Golden Proportion, the product of
      the arithmetic mean and the harmonic mean.
      Note that the arithmetic mean A = (p + q)/2 and the
      Harmonic mean H = 2pq/(p + q) can be seen as
      2/AH = 2/pq = (1/p + 1/q)2/(p + q).
        Fill in the values for p = 5, q = 7 for 2/35 and
        p = 7 and q = 13 for 2/91 and see what I mean.
        As a 500 AD to 800 AD Akhmim Papyrus point, the Egyptian
        inverted Golden Proportion seems to be improved upon,
        as Howard Eves noted in his AN INTRODUCTION TO THE 
        HISTORY OF MATHEMATICS textbook, by:
        z/pq = 1/pr + 1/qr where r = (p + q)/2
       b. Second is the exception 2/95, which is really:
         2/19 stated as a prime unit fractions time 1/5.
         Here the prime unit fraction algorithm is revealed by:
         2/p - 1/a  = (2a - p)/ap where
         a is a highly divisible number, about 2/3rds the value of p,
         with 2a -p being additively composed of the divisors of a.
         Using 2/19 as an example a = 12 was chosen by Ahmes such that
         of the two sets of divisors of a that add to 5 < 2a - p, 
         (2(12) - 19) = 5> 4,1 and 3,2 to be specific the largest
         smallest term seemed to appeal to Ahmes.
         Writing out 2/19 = 1/12 + (3 + 2)/(12*19) 
                          = 1/12 + 1/76 + 1/114 or 
        or, as Greeks wrote,
                     2/19 = 12' 76' 114'
        At this point is should be made clear that little time has been
        spent on Classical or Hellene Greece. What is clear is that many
        minor changes were made by Greeks, one I suspect is a general
        form for primes and composite unit fractions, near this statement:
        n/pq - 1/a = (na -pq)/apq, 
        where q can be 1, reducing the algorithm to the earlier Egyptian 
        form. Seen in this way the messy rules for composites could be 
        reduced by now using all the divisors of a, p  and q to addively 
        compute the 2nd-4th partition value na -pq.
        It should be noted, in conclusion, in terms of RMP prime number 
        patterns that two aspects may be significant. First, and most 
        importantly, all prime numbers in the RMP 2/nth table follow ONE 
        rule, 2/p - 1/a = (2a -p)/ap. Since there are no exceptions to 
        this rule is is very unlikely it was not know by Greek and
        Egyptian mathematicians.
        Second, the essentials of the prime aliquot part algorithm, divisors
        of the first partition, was noted by B.L. van der Waerden in 
        SCIENCE AWAKENING, and by E.M Bruins and by Hultsch. Hultsch's 1895 
        number theory work by on Sylvester's 1880's work may now be 
        re-visited, right?
Milo Gardner 
Sacramento, CA
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 03:02:00 GMT
In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>
>        [A lot of stuff on unit-fraction decompositions...]
>
>        A rather interesting curiosity, but hardly Euclid's _Elements_. I 
>think it interesting that Mr. Whittet has yet to claim any Egyptian 
>originals for the _Elements_, any Egyptian text that looks as if the 
>_Elements_ had been copied from it.
>-- 
>Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com                      And a fast train
>My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
>Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
>
>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Milo Gardner 
To: Steve Whittet 
Cc: Loren Petrich 
Subject: Re: Euclid's Book VII and Unit Fractions
Hi Steve (and Loren):
Smallness of the last term tended to dominate shortness of
series, at least that is how I read the RMP, Reisner, Hibeh and
other ancient unit fraction documents.
That is to say,
On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Steve Whittet wrote:
> Milo Gardner wrote:
> > 
> > This paper presents an informal p/q generalized fraction point of view,
> > long proposed by Boyer and many other math historians as not having been
> > known in Babylon, Egypt or Greece prior to 600 BC. The informal evidence
> > that is being presented was taken from the 500 AD era, the Akhmim
> > Papyyrus, a time period when p/q was a known aspect of Classical
> > mathematics. Two tables of unit fractions, n/17 and n/19, will be "read"
> > in a manner that closely resembles Middle Kingdom exact innovations, as
> > discussed in the First and Second Installments as found on
> > 
> > 1. http://www.teleport.com/~ddonahue/phresour.html and
> > 
> > 2. http://www.seanet.com/~ksbrown/iegypt.htm
> > 
> > Please note the manner than 4/17 and 8/17 are computed, possibly by the
> > Euclidean algorithm. Comments would be appreciated by number theory or
> > hisotrian types that may be able to read Appendix I data in another
> > manner.
> > 
> > What I see, considering p/q as an unsolved Middle Kingdom problem, as an
> > aspect discussed by Richard Guy in his popular treatise on the subject,
> > 4/y will not be directly proven to have been calculated by a 3-term unit
> > fraction. Nor will a 5/y or x/y unit fraction series be proven by
> > induction, or any other modern number theory method.
> > 
> > To justify one basis for presenting this informal proof, I would like to
> > cite, Makers of Mathematics, by Stuart Hollingsdale. Hollingsdale asks:
> > why did 500 AD Egyptians choose the awkward 7/29 = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232'
> > rather than the much simplier modern form of 7/29 = 5' 29' 145'?
> > 
> > Simply stated, Egyptians appear to have known and fully utilized:
> > 
> >               5/29 = 1/6 + (6*5 - 29)/(6*29), as the Akhmim P. taught
> >                    = 6' 174'
> > 
> > and adding,   2/29 = 1/24 + (2*24 - 29)/(24*29), as the RMP taught
> >                    = 1/24 + (12 + 4 + 3)/(24*29)
> >                      24' 58' 174' 232'
> > 
> > Thus           7/29 = 6' 24' 58' (174' + 174') 232'
> >                     = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232', as the Akhmim P. taught
> > 
> > Given that this explanation may one day be confirmed, over 2,500 years of
> > unit fractions history, a set of n/p tables, can now be outlined by two
> > tables, n/17 and n/19, per Attachment I.
> > 
> > 
> > Attachment I
> > 
> > This officially unsolved number theory problem originates from ancient
> > Egypt, covers a period from 2,000 BC to 500 AD a period of 2,500
> > years. The source document is the Akhmim Papyrus, a Hellene 500 AD
> > to 800 AD papyrus, found along the Nile, as cited by Wilbur Knorr,
> > Stanford History of Science Department, Historia Mathematica, HM 9,
> > "Fractions in Ancient Egypt and Greece". Knorr's excellent paper
> > includes several x/y tables, as Guy described them, such as n/17 and
> > n/19. Both tables will be attempted to be "read" using rules that
> > that may have primarily originated in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era.
> > 
> >  n/17   Akhmim P. Value   Ideas from 1650 BC Egyptian Fractions
> >  ----  ----------------  -------------------------------------
> >  2/17   12' 51' 68'          2 a - p = 7 [a = 12, divisors 4, 3]
> 
> 17/2 = 8 1/17, 9>
> 
> 2/17 - 1/9 
> 9*17 = 153
> 18/153 - 17/153 = 1/153
> 2/17 = 9' 153'
> 
is shorter; however, the first partition denominator tended to be 
selected from a small set of EVEN numbers --- based on the tradition
of the 2/nth tables from the RMP.
Makers of Mathematics author Stuart Hollinsdale from the Open University 
asked the same question, as I may have stated in this post where 1/5 was
shown to be smaller than the selected series cited for 7/29 in the Akhmim.
> >  3/17   12' 17' 51' 68'      2/17 + 1/17
> 
> 3/17 = 6' 102'
> 
for all p > 13 the first partition was selected from highly divisible
numbers == abundant numbers. Note that 6 is perfect, and ONLY used in the RMP
for p < 13. I suspect the abundant number rule continued to be used
by Greeks, Romans and Copts.
> >  4/17   12' 15'17' 68' 85'   (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
> >                              (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v)*
> > or                           (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
> >              3/17 + 1/17     (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v) + 1/17
> 
> 4/17 = 6' 17' 102'
> 
again, p > 13 and perfect numbers seem not to be allowed.
> >     5/17   4' 34' 68'           5a - p [a = 10, divisors 2, 1]
> 
> 5/17 = 17/5 = 3 2/17, 4>
> 5/17 - 1/4 
> 4 * 17 = 68
> 20/68 - 17/68 = 3/68
> 3/68 -1/68 = 2/68 = 1/34
> 5/17 = 4' 34' 68'
> 
> >     6/17   3' 51'               6a - p = 1 [ new general form]
> 
> 3/17 = 6' 102'
> 6/17 = 3' 51'			doubling
yes, given a starting point, from an even number for the first partition,
doubling and halving for n/p tables then were easily available.
> 
> >     7/17   3' 17' 51'           6/17 + 1/17
> >     8/17   3' 15' 17' 85'       (1/3 + 1/17)(1/1 + 1/5) from 4/17
> 
> 17/8 = 2 1/8, 3>
> 8/17 - 1/3
> 3 * 17 = 51
> 24/51 - 17/51 = 7/51
> 51/7 = 7 3/7, 8>
> 7/51 - 1/8
> 8 * 51 = 408
> 56/408 - 51/408 = 5/408 = 1/408 + 4/408, 1/102
> 8/17 = 3' 8' 102' 408'  
> 
the first key to understanding Egyptian fractions is the 
choice of the first parition. The second rule appeared to
focus on the last term. A third rule, sometime equal in
importance to the second rule, was the length of the series --
always less than six, the length of the Horus-Eye fractions --
the notation that hieratic fractions superceded.
> (same number of terms, second term smaller)
> 
> >     9/17  1/2 34'               5/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
> 
> 10/17 = 2' 17' 34'; 9/17 = 2' 34'
> 
> >     10/17 1/2 17' 34'           5/17 + 5/17
> 
> 5/17 = 4' 34' 68'; 10/17 = 2' 17' 34'
> 
> >     11/17 1/2 12' 34' 51' 68'  10/17 + 2/17 (12' 51' 68')
> [this expansion does equal 11/17 even though 10/17 + 2/17 = 12/17]
> 
> 6/17   3' 51' 
> 5/17 = 4' 34' 68'
> 
> 11/17 = 3' 4' 34' 51' 68'
>
see, you have gotten the hang of Egyptian fraction tables. They 
are very easy to assemble, given an allowed starting point.
> >     12/17 1/2 12' 17' 34' 51' 68'  11/17 + 1/17
> 
> It appears that your calculation of 12/17 is affected by your
> method of calculating 11/17 and so should really equal 13/17
> 
> 12/17 = 3' 4' 17' 34' 51' 68'
> 
> but actually your expansion does equal 12/17 because 3' 4' = 2' 12'
> 
> >     13/17 1/2  4' 68'           9/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
> 
> 5/17 = 4' 34' 68'
> 9/17  1/2 34' 
> 2/34 = 1/17
> 9/17 = 2' 4' 68'
> 
> Yes,...
> 
again, all of my series are historical -- from the 500 AD Akhmim P.
> >     14/17 1/2  4' 17' 68'      13/17 + 1/17
> >     15/17 1/2  3' 34' 51'       9/17 + 6/17
> >     16/17 1/2  3' 17' 34' 51'  15/17 + 1/17
> 
> ... I think I am following you here
yes, the logic is straight forward. You have gotten it.
> > 
> >    *u, v were NOT generally compute by the Euclidean algorithm
> > 
> >    That is to say, Euclid's Algorithm was not copied from
> >    Egyptian fractions, as a general rule.
> > 
> >                                  On set of "decoding" of Hellene
> >     n/19    Akhmim P. value      unit fractions using 1650 BC rules
> >     -----  --------------------- ------------------------------------
> >    2/19  10' 190'               2a- p = 1 is one of three methods
> >    3/19  15'  20' 57' 76' 95'   (1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >                               or 2/19 + 2/19 - 1/19 [a = 30, divisors 6, 
5]
> >    4/19   5' 95'                2/19 + 2/19
> >    5/19   4' 76'                2a - p [ one of three methods]
> >    6/19   4' 19' 76'            5/19 + 1/19
> >    7/19   3' 38' 114'           7a - p = 2 [ a = 3, divisors 2, 1]
> >                              or (1/2 + 1/6)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >    8/19   3' 30' 38' 57' 95'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >    9/19   3' 12' 38' 57' 76'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >   10/19  1/2 38'                5/19 + 5/17
> >   11/19  1/2 19' 38'            10/19 + 1/19
> >   12/19  1/2 12' 38' 76' 114'   11/19 + 1/19 with new 5/19 + 5/19
> >                                  [5/19 = 12' 76' 114', a = 12, divisors 
3, 2]
> >   13/19   3" 57'                 3" = 2/3 and 7/19 + 7/19 - 1/19
> >   14/19   3" 19' 57'            13/19 + 1/19
> >   15/19  1/2  4' 38' 76'        10/19 + 5/19
> >   16/19  1/2  4' 19' 38' 76'    15/19 + 1/19
> >   17/19  1/2  3' 30' 57' 95'    18/19 - 1/19
> >   18/19  1/2  3' 12' 57' 76'    1/2  + 9/19 - 1/38
> > 
> >   ** the 2/3 fudge factor as noted for 3/19, 7/19 and 9/19 may be
> >      the most direct method to read these unit fractions.
> 
> The Egyptians used both 2/3 and 3/4, right?
> > 
> >   Readers may wish to consider these additional facts:
> > 
> >   1. Prior to 2,000 BC Egyptian fractions followed a binary structure,
> >      with the notation being called Horus-Eye, as noted by
> > 
> >      1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 + ... + 1/2n + ...
> > 
> >   2. Babylonian base 60 followed a very similar decimal fraction 
structure
> >      such that zero was not required to be used. Only the fractions 
needed
> >      were listed. Thus no zero place holders were required, as our base 
10
> >      decimal system was set down by Stevins in 1585 AD.
> 
> Also no place holders were needed because the signs for each decimal
> multiple
> are different "|" for units, "n" for tens, and "@" for hundreds; etc;
yes, Babylonian and Egyptian fractions, both Horus-Eye and hieratic,
required no place holders. Hieratic was particular clear -- having
no passing interest in zero -- the primary historical reason why
zero and base 10 decimals developed very late in teh Western Traditon,
1585 AD, by Stevins.
> > 
> >   3. By 2,000 BC Babylonian algebra has been reported by the majority of
> >      mathematical historians, such as Boyer in his popular text, that
> >      this rhetorical algebra is equivalent to our modern algebra I.
> > 
> >   4. By 1850 BC, as recorded in 1650 BC by Ahmes in the Rhind 
Mathematical
> >      Papyrus an exact hieratic form of fractions alters greatly from the
> >      earlier inexact Horus -Eye hieroglyphic fractions.
> > 
> >   5.  History of Science authors like Neugebauer, Gillings and Knorr have
> >       cited a consistent composite number pattern, as I prefer to write 
as:
> > 
> >       2/pq = (1/q + 1/pq)2/(p + 1) where p and q are prime with p > q.
> > 
> >   6. Neugebauer notes the general algorithmic aspect to the composite
> >      form, as does Gillings for the multiple of 3 case, and as does
> >      Knorr and many others. Few if any used algebraic notation to
> >      describe these easy to read unit fractions.
> > 
> >   7. Disagreement between scholars is noted on two RMP levels for the
> >      exceptions 2/35, 2/91 and 2/95.
> > 
> >      a. First is the three composite case exceptions 2/35 and 2/91.
> > 
> >       Knorr discusses the 2/35 and 2/91 in a friendly manner, while
> >       Neugebauer and Gillings appear to be critical to this view.
> > 
> >       Concerning 2/35 and 2/91, a well known pattern does emerge,
> >       refuting the conclusions set down by scholars, a form that is
> >       clearly an inverted Greek Golden Proportion, the product of
> >       the arithmetic mean and the harmonic mean.
> > 
> >       Note that the arithmetic mean A = (p + q)/2 and the
> >       Harmonic mean H = 2pq/(p + q) can be seen as
> > 
> >       2/AH = 2/pq = (1/p + 1/q)2/(p + q).
> > 
> >         Fill in the values for p = 5, q = 7 for 2/35 and
> >         p = 7 and q = 13 for 2/91 and see what I mean.
> 
> So were the arithmetic and harmonic means derived from unit fraction
> algorithms
> in use since 2,000 BC, (c 1850 BC min) or did they derive slightly later
> during 
> the Hyksos period (c 1650 BC when Ahmes writes them down)?
It appears that the paritioning of p/q by proportions did spawn
arithmetic and harmonic series -- as well as Euclid's Book VII.
> > 
> >         As a 500 AD to 800 AD Akhmim Papyrus point, the Egyptian
> >         inverted Golden Proportion seems to be improved upon,
> >         as Howard Eves noted in his AN INTRODUCTION TO THE
> >         HISTORY OF MATHEMATICS textbook, by:
> > 
> >         z/pq = 1/pr + 1/qr where r = (p + q)/2
> > 
> >        b. Second is the exception 2/95, which is really:
> > 
> >          2/19 stated as a prime unit fractions time 1/5.
> > 
> >          Here the prime unit fraction algorithm is revealed by:
> > 
> >          2/p - 1/a  = (2a - p)/ap where
> > 
> >          a is a highly divisible number, about 2/3rds the value of p,
> >          with 2a -p being additively composed of the divisors of a.
> > 
> >          Using 2/19 as an example a = 12 was chosen by Ahmes such that
> >          of the two sets of divisors of a that add to 5 < 2a - p,
> >          (2(12) - 19) = 5> 4,1 and 3,2 to be specific the largest
> >          smallest term seemed to appeal to Ahmes.
> > 
> >          Writing out 2/19 = 1/12 + (3 + 2)/(12*19)
> >                           = 1/12 + 1/76 + 1/114 or
> > 
> >         or, as Greeks wrote,
> > 
> >                      2/19 = 12' 76' 114'
> > 
> >         At this point is should be made clear that little time has been
> >         spent on Classical or Hellene Greece. What is clear is that many
> >         minor changes were made by Greeks, one I suspect is a general
> >         form for primes and composite unit fractions, near this 
statement:
> > 
> >         n/pq - 1/a = (na -pq)/apq,
> > 
> >         where q can be 1, reducing the algorithm to the earlier Egyptian
> >         form. Seen in this way the messy rules for composites could be
> >         reduced by now using all the divisors of a, p  and q to addively
> >         compute the 2nd-4th partition value na -pq.
> > 
> >         It should be noted, in conclusion, in terms of RMP prime number
> >         patterns that two aspects may be significant. First, and most
> >         importantly, all prime numbers in the RMP 2/nth table follow ONE
> >         rule, 2/p - 1/a = (2a -p)/ap. Since there are no exceptions to
> >         this rule is is very unlikely it was not know by Greek and
> >         Egyptian mathematicians.
> 
> How is this different from what Sylvester came up with?
Sylvester and Hultsch were very close to this algorithm - -but they
only stated a seven step recurive form -- not the simple algorithm.
Reference: Robins and Shute, The Rhind Mathemtical Papyrus.
> > 
> >         Second, the essentials of the prime aliquot part algorithm, 
divisors
> >         of the first partition, was noted by B.L. van der Waerden in
> >         SCIENCE AWAKENING, and by E.M Bruins and by Hultsch. Hultsch's 
1895
> >         number theory work by on Sylvester's 1880's work may now be
> >         re-visited, right?
> > 
> > Milo Gardner
> > Sacramento, CA
> 
> 
> really cool informational helpful post,
> 
> steve
> 
And thank you for reading the post so closely. I wonder if Loren has taken
any time to try to digest the math and references. 
Loren, it is now your turn.
Milo Gardner
Sacramento, CA
steve
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 03:03:11 GMT
In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>
>        [A lot of stuff on unit-fraction decompositions...]
>
>        A rather interesting curiosity, but hardly Euclid's _Elements_. I 
>think it interesting that Mr. Whittet has yet to claim any Egyptian 
>originals for the _Elements_, any Egyptian text that looks as if the 
>_Elements_ had been copied from it.
>-- 
>Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com                      And a fast train
>My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
>Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
>
>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 06:20:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Milo Gardner 
To: Steve Whittet 
Subject: Re: Euclid's Book VII and Unit Fractions
On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Steve Whittet wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 9/24/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hi Steve (and Loren):
> >
> >Smallness of the last term tended to dominate shortness of
> >series, at least that is how I read the RMP, Reisner, Hibeh and
> >other ancient unit fraction documents.
> >
> >That is to say,
> >
> >
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> Hi Milo,
> 
> I am getting hooked, I did the 19 series on the way home on the bus.
> 
> Do you mind if I post some of this discussion, albeit with some 
>judicious edits to keep them short and readable? Basically I would like 
>to put up the reasons you gave for thinking the algorithms originated 
>prior to 1650 BC.
yes, editing into readable threads would be nice. You have my permission
to post our communications in that manner. Note, do not exclude the 
EMLR and its 1/p and 1/pq forms. The EMLR may be a bridge between 
Horus-Eye fractions and the fully blown hieratic fraction notation.
> 
> steve
> 
> 
Milo
steve
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Egyptian standards of measure: Was Re: Egyptian Tree Words
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 02:58:44 GMT
In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>
>        [A lot of stuff on unit-fraction decompositions...]
>
>        A rather interesting curiosity, but hardly Euclid's _Elements_. I 
>think it interesting that Mr. Whittet has yet to claim any Egyptian 
>originals for the _Elements_, any Egyptian text that looks as if the 
>_Elements_ had been copied from it.
>-- 
>Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh
>petrich@netcom.com                      And a fast train
>My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
>Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
>
>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:46:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Milo Gardner 
To: Steve Whittet 
Cc: Loren Petrich 
Subject: Re: Euclid's Book VII and Unit Fractions
Hi Steve (and Loren):
Thanks Steve, for your email. Syvester first tried Fibonacci, and later
improved it by showing that the Euclidean Algorithm always computes
a unit fraction series. As a few example should clearly show that the
Eucidean Algorithm almost never computes a series as small as
Egyptians, Greeks and Romans wrote in their p/q tables.
Milo
On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Steve Whittet wrote:
> Milo Gardner wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Milo,
> 
> Great post! Really excellent
....snip...
I need to more work on Book VII and
show its connection to Egyptian number theory. The no part is, I
have modified an old post --- one that I had almost forgotten about.
> As far as Sylvesters work, as I recall his theory was that an Egyptian
> could convert a fraction to a unit fraction by dividing the numerator
> into the denominator and rounding up to the next whole integer, then
> subtracting a unit fraction with that denominator from the original
> fraction and repeating the process until there was no remainder left.
> 
> Is that essentially correct?
Sylvester tried several techniques, such as Fibonacci and
Euclid's Algorithm.
> 
> 4/17 
> 17/4= 4 1/17
> 4 1/17 > 5
> 
> 4/17 - 1/5
> 
> 5 * 17 = 85
> 20/85 - 17/85 = 3/85
> 85/3 = 28 1/85
> 28 1/85 > 29
> 
> 3/85 - 1/29
> 
> 85*29 = 2465
> 87/2465- 85/2465 = 2/2465
> 6485/2 = 3242 1/6485
> 3242 1/6485 > 3243
> 
> 2/2465 - 1/3243
> 
> 2465*3243 = 7993995
> 6486/7993995-2465/7993995 =4021/7993995
> 7993995/4021 = 1988.061428
> 1988.061428 > 1989
> 
> 4021/7993995 - 1/1989
> 
> 7993995*1989 = 15900056000
> 7997769/15900056000-7993995/15900056000= 3774/15900056000
> 15900056000/3774 =4213052.458
> 4213052.458> 4213053
> 
> 3774/15900056000- 1/4213053
> 
> 15900056000*4213053=
> 66987779000000000
> 15900062/66987779000000-15900056/66987779000000=6/66987779000000
> 
> =1/11164630000000
> 
> at which point I am exceeding my pocket calculators accuracy.
> 
yes, starting at the 'wrong p/q value quickly runs into bid denominastors.
That is why a close review of p/q + or - 1/q, 2/q and so forth is required
to find the smallest table of n/q unit fraction series.
> ...
> 4/17 = 1/5 + 1/29 + 1/1989 + 1/3243 + 1/4213053 = .235294118
> 
> 4/17 = 1/5 +1/29 +1/1989 + 1/3243 ... = .23529388
> 
> Your algorithm gives
> 
>   4/17   12' 15'17' 68' 85'   (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
>                               (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v)*
>  or                           (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
>               3/17 + 1/17     (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v) + 1/17
> 
> (I think it is sharp to subtract 1/17 off the top)
> 
Kevin Brown introduced this special case algorithm. As you know
it appears to be Euclid's algorithm,
> 
> 4/17 - 1/17 = 3/17
> 17/3 = 5 2/3
> 5 2/3 > 6
> 3/17 - 1/6 
> 6*17= 102
> 18/102 - 17/102 = 1/102
> 
> 1/6 + 1/17 + 1/102 = 4/17
> 
> 
> > 
> > Milo Gardner
> > Sacramento, CA
> 
> 
> steve
> > 
> > This paper presents an informal p/q generalized fraction point of view,
> > long proposed by Boyer and many other math historians as not having been
> > known in Babylon, Egypt or Greece prior to 600 BC. The informal evidence
> > that is being presented was taken from the 500 AD era, the Akhmim
> > Papyyrus, a time period when p/q was a known aspect of Classical
> > mathematics. Two tables of unit fractions, n/17 and n/19, will be "read"
> > in a manner that closely resembles Middle Kingdom exact innovations, as
> > discussed in the First and Second Installments as found on
> > 
> > 1. http://www.teleport.com/~ddonahue/phresour.html and
> > 
> > 2. http://www.seanet.com/~ksbrown/iegypt.htm
> > 
> > Please note the manner than 4/17 and 8/17 are computed, possibly by the
> > Euclidean algorithm. Comments would be appreciated by number theory or
> > hisotrian types that may be able to read Appendix I data in another
> > manner.
> > 
> > What I see, considering p/q as an unsolved Middle Kingdom problem, as an
> > aspect discussed by Richard Guy in his popular treatise on the subject,
> > 4/y will not be directly proven to have been calculated by a 3-term unit
> > fraction. Nor will a 5/y or x/y unit fraction series be proven by
> > induction, or any other modern number theory method.
> > 
> > To justify one basis for presenting this informal proof, I would like to
> > cite, Makers of Mathematics, by Stuart Hollingsdale. Hollingsdale asks:
> > why did 500 AD Egyptians choose the awkward 7/29 = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232'
> > rather than the much simplier modern form of 7/29 = 5' 29' 145'?
> > 
> > Simply stated, Egyptians appear to have known and fully utilized:
> > 
> >               5/29 = 1/6 + (6*5 - 29)/(6*29), as the Akhmim P. taught
> >                    = 6' 174'
> > 
> > and adding,   2/29 = 1/24 + (2*24 - 29)/(24*29), as the RMP taught
> >                    = 1/24 + (12 + 4 + 3)/(24*29)
> >                      24' 58' 174' 232'
> > 
> > Thus           7/29 = 6' 24' 58' (174' + 174') 232'
> >                     = 6' 24' 58' 87' 232', as the Akhmim P. taught
> > 
> > Given that this explanation may one day be confirmed, over 2,500 years of
> > unit fractions history, a set of n/p tables, can now be outlined by two
> > tables, n/17 and n/19, per Attachment I.
> > 
> > 
> > Attachment I
> > 
> > This officially unsolved number theory problem originates from ancient
> > Egypt, covers a period from 2,000 BC to 500 AD a period of 2,500
> > years. The source document is the Akhmim Papyrus, a Hellene 500 AD
> > to 800 AD papyrus, found along the Nile, as cited by Wilbur Knorr,
> > Stanford History of Science Department, Historia Mathematica, HM 9,
> > "Fractions in Ancient Egypt and Greece". Knorr's excellent paper
> > includes several x/y tables, as Guy described them, such as n/17 and
> > n/19. Both tables will be attempted to be "read" using rules that
> > that may have primarily originated in the Egyptian Middle Kingdom era.
> > 
> >  n/17   Akhmim P. Value   Ideas from 1650 BC Egyptian Fractions
> >  ----  ----------------  -------------------------------------
> >  2/17   12' 51' 68'          2 a - p = 7 [a = 12, divisors 4, 3]
> >  3/17   12' 17' 51' 68'      2/17 + 1/17
> >  4/17   12' 15'17' 68' 85'   (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
> >                              (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v)*
> > or                           (1/3 + 1/17)(1/4 + 1/5) or
> >              3/17 + 1/17     (1/a + 1/p)(1/u + 1/v) + 1/17
> >     5/17   4' 34' 68'           5a - p [a = 10, divisors 2, 1]
> >     6/17   3' 51'               6a - p = 1 [ new general form]
> >     7/19   3' 17' 51'           6/17 + 1/17
> >     8/17   3' 15' 17' 85'       (1/3 + 1/17)(1/1 + 1/5) from 4/17
> >     9/17  1/2 34'               5/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
> >     10/17 1/2 17' 34'           5/17 + 5/17
> >     11/17 1/2 12' 34' 51' 68'  10/17 + 2/17 (12' 51' 68')
> >     12/17 1/2 12' 17' 34' 51' 68'  11/17 + 1/17
> >     13/17 1/2  4' 68'           9/17 + 5/17 - 1/17
> >     14/17 1/2  4' 17' 68'      13/17 + 1/17
> >     15/17 1/2  3' 34' 51'       9/17 + 6/17
> >     16/17 1/2  3' 17' 34' 51'  15/17 + 1/17
> > 
> >    *u, v were NOT generally compute by the Euclidean algorithm
> > 
> >    That is to say, Euclid's Algorithm was not copied from
> >    Egyptian fractions, as a general rule.
> > 
> >                                  On set of "decoding" of Hellene
> >     n/19    Akhmim P. value      unit fractions using 1650 BC rules
> >     -----  --------------------- ------------------------------------
> >    2/19  10' 190'               2a- p = 1 is one of three methods
> >    3/19  15'  20' 57' 76' 95'   (1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >                               or 2/19 + 2/19 - 1/19 [a = 30, divisors 6, 
5]
> >    4/19   5' 95'                2/19 + 2/19
> >    5/19   4' 76'                2a - p [ one of three methods]
> >    6/19   4' 19' 76'            5/19 + 1/19
> >    7/19   3' 38' 114'           7a - p = 2 [ a = 3, divisors 2, 1]
> >                              or (1/2 + 1/6)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >    8/19   3' 30' 38' 57' 95'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/5)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >    9/19   3' 12' 38' 57' 76'    (1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4)(1/1 + 1/19) - 2/3**
> >   10/19  1/2 38'                5/19 + 5/17
> >   11/19  1/2 19' 38'            10/19 + 1/19
> >   12/19  1/2 12' 38' 76' 114'   11/19 + 1/19 with new 5/19 + 5/19
> >                                  [5/19 = 12' 76' 114', a = 12, divisors 
3, 2]
> >   13/19   3" 57'                 3" = 2/3 and 7/19 + 7/19 - 1/19
> >   14/19   3" 19' 57'            13/19 + 1/19
> >   15/19  1/2  4' 38' 76'        10/19 + 5/19
> >   16/19  1/2  4' 19' 38' 76'    15/19 + 1/19
> >   17/19  1/2  3' 30' 57' 95'    18/19 - 1/19
> >   18/19  1/2  3' 12' 57' 76'    1/2  + 9/19 - 1/38
> > 
> >   ** the 2/3 fudge factor as noted for 3/19, 7/19 and 9/19 may be
> >      the most direct method to read these unit fractions.
> > 
> >   Readers may wish to consider these additional facts:
> > 
> >   1. Prior to 2,000 BC Egyptian fractions followed a binary structure,
> >      with the notation being called Horus-Eye, as noted by
> > 
> >      1 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + 1/64 + ... + 1/2n + ...
> > 
> >   2. Babylonian base 60 followed a very similar decimal fraction 
structure
> >      such that zero was not required to be used. Only the fractions 
needed
> >      were listed. Thus no zero place holders were required, as our base 
10
> >      decimal system was set down by Stevins in 1585 AD.
> > 
> >   3. By 2,000 BC Babylonian algebra has been reported by the majority of
> >      mathematical historians, such as Boyer in his popular text, that
> >      this rhetorical algebra is equivalent to our modern algebra I.
> > 
> >   4. By 1850 BC, as recorded in 1650 BC by Ahmes in the Rhind 
Mathematical
> >      Papyrus an exact hieratic form of fractions alters greatly from the
> >      earlier inexact Horus -Eye hieroglyphic fractions.
> > 
> >   5.  History of Science authors like Neugebauer, Gillings and Knorr have
> >       cited a consistent composite number pattern, as I prefer to write 
as:
> > 
> >       2/pq = (1/q + 1/pq)2/(p + 1) where p and q are prime with p > q.
> > 
> >   6. Neugebauer notes the general algorithmic aspect to the composite
> >      form, as does Gillings for the multiple of 3 case, and as does
> >      Knorr and many others. Few if any used algebraic notation to
> >      describe these easy to read unit fractions.
> > 
> >   7. Disagreement between scholars is noted on two RMP levels for the
> >      exceptions 2/35, 2/91 and 2/95.
> > 
> >      a. First is the three composite case exceptions 2/35 and 2/91.
> > 
> >       Knorr discusses the 2/35 and 2/91 in a friendly manner, while
> >       Neugebauer and Gillings appear to be critical to this view.
> > 
> >       Concerning 2/35 and 2/91, a well known pattern does emerge,
> >       refuting the conclusions set down by scholars, a form that is
> >       clearly an inverted Greek Golden Proportion, the product of
> >       the arithmetic mean and the harmonic mean.
> > 
> >       Note that the arithmetic mean A = (p + q)/2 and the
> >       Harmonic mean H = 2pq/(p + q) can be seen as
> > 
> >       2/AH = 2/pq = (1/p + 1/q)2/(p + q).
> > 
> >         Fill in the values for p = 5, q = 7 for 2/35 and
> >         p = 7 and q = 13 for 2/91 and see what I mean.
> > 
> >         As a 500 AD to 800 AD Akhmim Papyrus point, the Egyptian
> >         inverted Golden Proportion seems to be improved upon,
> >         as Howard Eves noted in his AN INTRODUCTION TO THE
> >         HISTORY OF MATHEMATICS textbook, by:
> > 
> >         z/pq = 1/pr + 1/qr where r = (p + q)/2
> > 
> >        b. Second is the exception 2/95, which is really:
> > 
> >          2/19 stated as a prime unit fractions time 1/5.
> > 
> >          Here the prime unit fraction algorithm is revealed by:
> > 
> >          2/p - 1/a  = (2a - p)/ap where
> > 
> >          a is a highly divisible number, about 2/3rds the value of p,
> >          with 2a -p being additively composed of the divisors of a.
> > 
> >          Using 2/19 as an example a = 12 was chosen by Ahmes such that
> >          of the two sets of divisors of a that add to 5 < 2a - p,
> >          (2(12) - 19) = 5> 4,1 and 3,2 to be specific the largest
> >          smallest term seemed to appeal to Ahmes.
> > 
> >          Writing out 2/19 = 1/12 + (3 + 2)/(12*19)
> >                           = 1/12 + 1/76 + 1/114 or
> > 
> >         or, as Greeks wrote,
> > 
> >                      2/19 = 12' 76' 114'
> > 
> >         At this point is should be made clear that little time has been
> >         spent on Classical or Hellene Greece. What is clear is that many
> >         minor changes were made by Greeks, one I suspect is a general
> >         form for primes and composite unit fractions, near this 
statement:
> > 
> >         n/pq - 1/a = (na -pq)/apq,
> > 
> >         where q can be 1, reducing the algorithm to the earlier Egyptian
> >         form. Seen in this way the messy rules for composites could be
> >         reduced by now using all the divisors of a, p  and q to addively
> >         compute the 2nd-4th partition value na -pq.
> > 
> >         It should be noted, in conclusion, in terms of RMP prime number
> >         patterns that two aspects may be significant. First, and most
> >         importantly, all prime numbers in the RMP 2/nth table follow ONE
> >         rule, 2/p - 1/a = (2a -p)/ap. Since there are no exceptions to
> >         this rule is is very unlikely it was not know by Greek and
> >         Egyptian mathematicians.
> > 
> >         Second, the essentials of the prime aliquot part algorithm, 
divisors
> >         of the first partition, was noted by B.L. van der Waerden in
> >         SCIENCE AWAKENING, and by E.M Bruins and by Hultsch. Hultsch's 
1895
> >         number theory work by on Sylvester's 1880's work may now be
> >         re-visited, right?
> 
steve
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