Subject: Re: Noah , the Flood and Moses......where is the evidence?(WasBible's timeline for Egypt)
From: Xina
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:01:35 -0500
Saida wrote:
>
> Xina wrote:
>
> > > > There is **NO** evidence of the Israelite "exodus" in *any* Ramesid or other Egyptian text. Rameses II didnt mention it because it either> didnt happen in his lifetime *or* was such an insignifigant event that it was not even worthy of a passing footnote. How do you explain your
> > > > realignment of the calendar dates now?
>
> (a big snip)
>
> A precise date for the Exodus is going to be hard to come by and the
> alignment of the celestial bodies in ancient times is not going to offer
> any clues.
My point, with all due respect, is that even though the enforced labor
of the Isrealites is well documented, there has been presented no proof
of a mass Exodus during the time of Rameses II. I was under the
understanding that Mrenptah was citing his Grandfather's
accomplishments, not necessarily his father's. So again, the smiting of
Isreal is very difficult to pinpoint, if Merenptah is indeed simply
recounting the accomplishments of an ancestor. Im no doubting the
enslavement and smiting of the isrealites, Im disputing the hisorical
accuracy of Elijah's original conclusion that Rameses "messed up the
calendar" because he couldnt handle having his arse kicked by the
Isrealites and their God.
The However, there is a record called the
> "Israel Stele", on which Merenptah says "Israel is laid waste.
I have seen some materials on this stele, yes it is very interesting,
but again, it doesnt prove when the Exodus happened. The Brooklyn
papyrus I havent seen that much on and would like to read a translation
of it. (Any suggestions to any good titles?)
The whole thread was less about Moses and the Isrealites than someone
who was trying to pinpoint a date for the Flood, the Exodus and
Armageddon.
Thanks for the other information, Saida!
Respectfully,
Xina
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art And Beating Dead Horses!!!
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 96 15:54:12 GMT
In article <32711784.55EF@netins.net>, Xina wrote:
>Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>>
>> In article <3270E3ED.2D62@netins.net>, Xina wrote:
>> >Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
>> There are also people on this list claiming all sorts of things.
>> Btw, the masters of this type of trick are Eurocentric not Afrocentric scholars.
They were the first to this on a wide scale, are the main ones still doing it now.
>
>So who would you surmise are the *main* eurocentric scholars that are
>guilty of this now.
>
To name a few Lefkowitz, D'Souza, Murray and Herrnstein, Rushton. Out of respect
I will avoid a few names here, but their are many more.
>>
>> > I have
>> >> claimed that Egypt originated as a black African civilization.
>> >> The predynastic, early dynasty, and Old Kingdom Giza dynasties were
>> >> predominantly of that type (Prowse and Lovell, 1996; Keita, 1993, 1992).
>> >
>> >
>> >Yes, Im sure you are probably at least partially right. So?
>>
>> So, why not just acknowledge this with getting all upset? Are you being threatened in some way?
>
>No, Im not threatened, I just *did* aknowlege it, my complaint is the
>issue of race seems to come up again and again. There are many in the
>NG, not necessarily yourself or the Afrocentric 'scholars' who are not
>content with an aknowlegement. No, they want to continually throw it up
>into the faces of people who study Egypt for love of the subject matter,
>and there are even others that go further that say "how dare those
>'white' people look at our history and religion! They dont have enough
>melanin in their skins so they couldnt possibly have the appropriate DNA
>to understand it. I grew up experienceing the 'race issue' first hand.
>(Or did you think that no one has ever been prejudiced against anyone
>who is of another race other than black?) I grew up around it, it
>stinks no matter who is dishing it out....that and only that is what I
>find offensive.
>
>Paul, I can respect your point of view, I dont always agree with it
>100%, and you have presented more evidence on your side than most
>Afrocentric 'scholars', but honestly...after we admit to the race issue
>(which I have already done btw) still we have the quetsion....then what?
>
>
Nothing, just go on about our business. The problem is are still denying the race issue.
They are defending the old illusions. Also they are attacking multiculturalism
and ethnic study programs around the country.
>> >When you get done typecasting and putting everybody and everything into
>> >neat little petrie dishes, let me know. Because this whole bloody
>> >arguement is getting extrememly stale.
>> >
>>
>> You're quite the hypocrite. I you really were not interested in preserving myths
>> about the ancient Egyptians, then this conversation should not bother you
>> in the least. You could simply ignore it. The problem with Eurocentrists is that
>> they fly into rages when their false constructs are threatened.
>
>I care more about the legends and Religion of Ancient Egypt than you are
>capable of comprehending. How incredibly pompous a statement that is.
>You are the one who gets bent out of shape when it is pointed out to you
>in a calm and concise manner that there was an artistic cannon of
>Egyptian art, and that every glyph, every symbol every nuance was
>prescribed by that same cannon. Look at the glyph of a mouth (the
>letter R) it is ALWAYS Red, when it is painted, the Owl glyph (M) is
>ALWAYS Yellow.....the skin of Goddesses is ALWAYS yellow or gold....so
>my point is, you are going to have to live with the fact that the
>Eguptians did art, language, religion etc through the symbology, like it
>or not. No amount of conspiracy theories, no amount of jumping up and
>down nor denial is going to change the facts.
>
These points above are incorrect. Goddesses do not always have yellow
skin. Forget about conspiracies, you don't even have your facts straight.
>Im not a eurocentrist, Paul, Im the last person in the world who is
>intersted in perpetuating the liars scrawl of nineteenth century racist
>european authors. I read plenty of accounts of how my people were
>'ignorant heathen savages, in need of the white race's superior
>influence in order to save them from themselves'. Im glad that African
>Americans are proud of their heritage, Im certainly proud of mine. What
>bothers me are the notions put forth by **some** (Not necessarily YOU)
>Afro-C "scholars" or its self styled champions that we who dont have
>that much melanin in our skins shouldnt study egyptology...period. That
>would include all persons of non-black decent. An example of this would
>be (Im not making this up, Ive had it actually *said* to me )"Why would
>you study Egyptology? Youre not black! Its not *your* history its
>ours!" Thats audacity! That is what I find offensive.
>
You have a lot of nerve painting a whole group based on the comments of a single person.
Isn't this what you (wrongfully) charge Afrocentrists of doing? The internet is full of
racist whites spouting crap continously. Should I generalize their behavior to you? There i
s absolutely nothing wrong with Africans and other non-whites seeking vindication for
centuries of racist scholarship (which they are still battling to this day).
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject: Re: Noah , the Flood and Moses......where is the evidence?(WasBible's timeline for Egypt)
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 25 Oct 1996 22:09:44 GMT
In article <327115C7.6960@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>,
saida@PioneerPlanet.infi.net says...
>
>Xina wrote:
>>
>> Eliyehowah wrote:
>> Xina wrote:
>> > > There is **NO** evidence of the Israelite "exodus" in *any* Ramesid or
>> > > other Egyptian text.
That is not entirely true. When you read the Armana letters describing
the campaigns of Thutmosis I and the rest of the XVIIIth dynasty pharoahs
in the Djadi and Upper Retnu in support of their vassals who are being
pestered by some nasty Habiru bandits you have to ask who are these
Habiru and why are they burning cities and killing people throughout
Canaan.
It clearly indicates that after the Hyksos are defeated their power
shifts from the delta to Thebes. Now the captital of Egypt is
connected directly by the wadi Ham Ma'at to the Red Sea and the
trade with Punt opened up by hatshepset.
This straight road to Ham involved a regular ferry across the Red Sea
from Elim to Elat at the juncture of Midian and the territory of the
Amalakites. This is where Moses meets Jethro, his father in law and
fights the Amalakites, the place of Mt Horeb, Rephidian and Kadesh
Barnea c 1453 BC
In the Bible you can follow the progress of the Hebrews north up
the wadi Arabah between the boundaries of Moab and Edom and in the
Armana letters you can follow the progress of the Hapiru north up
the wadi Arabah to Beth Shean and the Jordan, Megiddo and Mt Carmel
north all the way to the headwaters of the Orontes where Ramesses
fights the battle of Kadesh in the mountains using iron shod chariots
and Deborah fights the battle of Kadesh in the mountains likewise
using iron shod chariots, c 1285 BC
The intervening period of 168 years works very well with the Biblical
chronology. Noted experts in the field of Biblical Archaeology such as
William Dever claim that "if we read the Bible with sophistication
- not simplistically - we can often correlate the Biblical text with
archaeological remains."
>> > > Rameses II didnt mention it because it either
>> > > didnt happen in his lifetime
It didn't happen in his lifetime, except for the very end of it, which
was the battle of Kadesh.
>> > > *or* was such an insignifigant event that
>> > > it was not even worthy of a passing footnote.
>> > > How do you explain your
>> > > realignment of the calendar dates now?
It's a lot like dendrochronological dating. You have to get
all the events to match the archaeological evidence, not just
focus in on one or two toponyms or personal names.
You also need to realise that the Exodus is the story of
a people who worship the Law. They carve an image of their god,
an icon of the principle which guides their beliefs
in stone and put it in an ark just as the
Egyptians did their gods.
The ten commandments were The Law.
They were considered as soverign over all the other gods
or over all the other principles.
Then you have to look at this in terms of those who agreed to
abide by the law were considered as protected by its covenants
and those who would not agree to abide by it were considered
outlaws and put under the ban. Putting a people under the ban
meant killing them and burning their cities.
1.) The Hyksos are a people who once ruled Egypt and gained
much wealth and power, but are now fallen on hard times.
2.) Their visirs or overseers or govenors now want them to
follow the laws of Egypt and obey the Pharoah.
3.) They say " No thank you, we are going to go go off and do our
own thing and you can't stop us."
4.) This amounts to a significant part of the population
suceeding from the state of Egypt and they take a good
part of its loot with them when they leave.
5.) They hire the ships of Hatshepsets fleet, built for the
trade down the Red Aea with Puint to carry them across to
Midian.
6.)Thereafter they head north toward their allies who are
already establishing themselves on the coasts of Palestine.
7.) The result is they are one of several groups fighting
for control of a border land with rich natural resources,
timber, copper, naptha and ivory.
>
>(a big snip)
>
>A precise date for the Exodus is going to be hard to come by and the
>alignment of the celestial bodies in ancient times is not going to offer
>any clues.
That is true, but actually archaeology can date it quite well
by styles of pottery, architecture and other artifacts. The
mention of the price of slaves, comparison of the blessings and
curses used in contracts and treaties, and the geopolitical
situation documented in the Armana letters are very helpful.
> The designation of Ramesses (or his successor, Merenptah) is
>not based on anything they personally claimed, but on the Biblical
>mention of the cities Pithom and Raamses, which the Israelites are
>supposed to have helped build.
This is simply nineteenth century psycobabble.
1.) Merenptah is referring to a whole sucession of campaigns fought
by his forefathers.
2.) Ra mes ses simply means
Ra = day
mes = birth
ses = guard
This can refer to either a place where the dawn is guarded or observed,
or a person responsible for making the sun to rise.
3.) The capital of Egypt during the XVIIIth Dynasty was at Thebes
not in the delta. Thus an exodus crossing the Red Sea from the
capital where the pharoah had his court had to leave from Elim,
the Red Sea port of Thebes.
> However, there is a record called the
>"Israel Stele", on which Merenptah says "Israel is laid waste. Her see
>is no more." In this rather premature bit of propaganda, the pharaoh
>refers to Israel (I believe this may be the only actual mention of the
>word "Israel" in the annals of ancient Egypt) being vanquished in war,
>but Merenptah is probably speaking of the deeds of an ancestor as he,
>himself, was not particularly militant.
This is probably a reference to the aftermath of the battle of Kadesh
fought by Rameses II.
>
>About slaves: Torgny Save-Soderbergh makes a couple of interesting
>observations in his "Pharaohs and Mortals":
>
>"As soon as Egypt was again weakened by internal strife in the 1700's,
>and the border guard began to slacken, large numbers of Semites wandered
>back into Egypt. That this was an immigration og major proportions is
>indicated by a recently uncovered papyrus (I think he means the Brooklyn
>Papyrus) which lists the members of an apparently average household
>during this period. The servants are for the most part Semites, for
>every three Egyptians there are four Asians--men, women or children."
I don't think the people of the Exodus could have been slaves.
They dressed in purple and had boots of scarlet leather,
They had embroidered garments
They had enough silk and brocade on thier backs to build
a sanctuary of it
They carried enough gold to melt it down and
make a graven image of a cow.
They included among their number priests, not usually
an occupation of slaves, doctors, politicians with the
stature to speak in the Royal court on a regular basis.
No... these were not slaves but rather the dispossessed
Hykos who considered their loss of power, wealth and stature
as equivalent to slavery.
>
>And:
>
>"The forced labor of the Israelites is also well documented.
Baloney, give your cites. There are no Israelites until
at least the time of Merenptah, the Exodus was a couple
of centuries earlier.
>Camps for prisoners of war and foreign slave labor are
>familiar throuh archaeological remnants, texts and pictures,
>which show foreign workers were usually pressed into doing
>as much of the heavy labor as possible."
No. What we see is that captives of war or prisoners
generally Libyans and Sea peoples or those people who
got in the way of the campaigns through the djadi and
upper retnu are bound and marched to places of resettlement.
Most scenes of work portray the skilled labor of Egyptians.
Semites are generally portrayed as nomads and traders, albeit
cloaked in coats of many colors and bringing with them slaves
to trade.
steve
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art And Beating Dead Horses!!!
From: Xina
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 17:18:16 -0500
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> >You are the one who gets bent out of shape when it is pointed out to you
> >in a calm and concise manner that there was an artistic cannon of
> >Egyptian art, and that every glyph, every symbol every nuance was
> >prescribed by that same cannon. Look at the glyph of a mouth (the
> >letter R) it is ALWAYS Red, when it is painted, the Owl glyph (M) is
> >ALWAYS Yellow.....the skin of Goddesses is ALWAYS yellow or gold....so
> >my point is, you are going to have to live with the fact that the
> >Eguptians did art, language, religion etc through the symbology, like it
> >or not. No amount of conspiracy theories, no amount of jumping up and
> >down nor denial is going to change the facts.
> >
>
> These points above are incorrect. Goddesses do not always have yellow
> skin. Forget about conspiracies, you don't even have your facts straight.
Im sorry, I have enough confidence in my facts and I dont really give a
damn if you agree with me or not. Please See "Treasures of the Nile"
eited by Peter Bitstien, or Ancient Egyptian Art (dont have the author
at the moment but can get it once I get home) take a look at each and
every tomb in the Bitstien book. You show me *where* the human Netjert
(Goddesses) are represented in another colour, other than a yellow, or
in a few cases that I have seen a reddish colour. You cite another
colour such as what you percieve as black and I will believe you and I
will concede to that fact. (BTW do you *know* how to tell the difference
between a Goddess, a Queen and just an ordinary Egyptian woman in
Egyptian Painting? Test Question for you, Paul) Until that time, you are
simply trolling and grasping at straws.
>
> You have a lot of nerve painting a whole group based on the comments of a single person.
> Isn't this what you (wrongfully) charge Afrocentrists of doing?
Did you not read *some* not necessarily YOU? Did you miss that? Did
you also perchance *miss* the fact that I agreed with you on some of
your points. No, the "help Im being oppressed and my legacy has been
stolen!" syndrome has driven you to a point where *apparently* you
didn't see that. I was citing an example of extreme Afrocentrism,
apparently however that fact seems to have elluded you.
The internet is full of
> racist whites spouting crap continously. Should I generalize their behavior to you? There i
> s absolutely nothing wrong with Africans and other non-whites seeking vindication for
> centuries of racist scholarship (which they are still battling to this day).
Damn straight, Baby!! And I lived the racist lies all my life, same as
you, yet because I want to see concretized facts, and I want to see
Afrocentric scholars present thier information with as much attention to
detail as any other scholar is expected to, you accuse me of being a
hypocrite!
The past is past, no amount of bitching is going to change it. I happen
to love Egypt for herself and her history her art, her religious and
mythological legacy are nothing less than incredible. Its given me alot
of years of joy just learning all I can about it, and its sad that
somehow for *some* people that isnt enough now we have to turn it into
some sort of thing that can be "claimed' and mounted on a wall or placed
on a mantle and displayed.
Im **always** ready to listen to the evidence, and I have no problem
with whatever colour the pharaohs end up being (one or 100 or ALL of
them) but when you put out and out bullshit about the art and the
history that is completely and utterly wrong on line, I and others are
going to call you on it. If Im wrong I am MORE than happy to admit it.
All of this kind of reminds me of a thread on alt.native where some
self-styled "expert" insisted Geronimo wasnt an Apache but in fact a
Lakota.
Xina
Subject: Re: The Mystery of Pyramid
From: Charlie Rigano
Date: 25 Oct 1996 22:36:49 GMT
solos@enterprise.net (Adrian Gilbert) wrote: But on the
other hand to dismiss them as simple tombs is
>also childish. Clearly they had some sort of important purpose or they
>wouldn't have gond to the trouble of building such enormous structures.
Of course they had an important purpose. They were to
house the body of a god. Almost equal trouble was gone to,
to build temples to the Egyptian gods. Much later man
spent 100 years building cathereals.
As the
>pharaohs of the New Kingdom proved, hiding a bosy is best done by putting it
>somewhere no one is going to look, not sticking it inside some huge, landmark
>structure that cries out to be robbed.
On course hiding the bodies underground did not work all
that great either.
> I would suggest you take what is written in text-books with a large pinch of
>salt. Egyptology has not adequately answered the mystery of the pyramids.
I have heard alot about this "mystery". Exactly what is
the mystery. I can't find one.
Even
>Dr. Edwards, who I met a few times, was intrigued by the idea that the
>pyramids might represent the stars of Orion's Belt.
Adrain,
I have gone to some trouble to try and match the pyramids
at Giza, Abu Roach, Zawiet el Aryan, and Dahsher to the
stars in Orion and Taruas by placing the pyramids on one
piece of paper and the stars on the other and manipulating
the papers to get a match. Now I don't have the papers
here, but as I remember my experiment I had to arrange the
papers to reverse north and south on one of the papers.
When I made a sketch of the sites to a scale that would
match the Giza pyramids and the Belt stars, all the other
pyramid/star relationships were very far off. Sorry I
don't have my numbers with me and have to be alittle
qualitative here. However, Dahshur and the Haydes were so
far off that there is no relationship. Additionally, the
magnitude of the belt stars as viewed with the eye are
about the same. Even from my dark yard I can't tell the
difference in brightness, yet Menkurra's pyramid is about
10% the volume of Khufu's.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Charlie
Subject: Re: KENT WEEKS to Speak in Berkeley Calif. Oct 19th
From: grenvill@iafrica.com (Keith Grenville)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 96 22:12:35 GMT
> Aron Hershberger wrote:
> >
> > Greg Reeder wrote:
> > >>> The tomb has not
> > >>> revealed all of its secrets yet and I am sure more wonderful
> discoveries
> > >>> await.
> >
> > have any of you out there actually SEEN this wonderous tomb, KV5? Or
> > know just how much speculation was going on during the the past two
> > summers of work down there?
>
> The public has no access to this tomb, Aron. It is in a state of
> excavation--authorized personnel only. Anything Greg and I have quoted
> comes directly from statements made or written by Kent Weeks, the
> director of the clearing and preservation of KV5.
Yes, I have seen the tomb - the exterior or the entrance, that is. I also have
taken photographs of the pottery shards found in the tomb and their being
sorted. Kent Weeks has helpfully placed a diagramatic chart of the shape of
the tomb outside the entrance to KV5, illustrating the details of the
different levels, the first chamber and some of the smaller offering areas.
----
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa
Subject: Bactrian Beauty Aid (was Egyptian Foreign Connections)
From: Saida
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 17:37:07 -0500
I just came across a delightful and graceful item in a back issue of
Minerva, a British archaeological magazine (Nov/Dec 1995 page 54). It
is described thus: "A Bactrian copper alloy cosmetic bottle, the
applicator crested with a billy-goats head. 3rd Millenium B.C. Actual
size." The applicator looks as if it might be of gold, but I'm not sure
about this.
All this says, I suppose, is that 3,000 years before Christ, the people
of Bactria were painting their faces like the Egyptians, using cosmetic
containers of equal (in this case more than equal) quality.
Subject: Re: Silver
From: seagoat@primenet.com (John A. Halloran)
Date: 25 Oct 1996 15:34:02 -0700
In article <54qq84$9ul@fridge-nf0.shore.net> whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet) writes:
>"Atmospherically deposited as a sediment" refers to the gases which
>vent from oil deposits often containing high concentrations of
>sulfur and other elements. It is an ongoing and continuing process.
>Sufur plus water gives sulphuric acid.
>The acid releases metals from their matricx and breaks them down.
>Natural gas picks up the fumes containing the metals and vents them
>into the atmosphere where the metals eventually sediment out. They
>cover a very wide range of territory as an accumulation or sediment.
>It is what amounts in geophysical terms to a film, generally a few
>inches thick at most.
>Over time the heat of the sun causes sufficient expansion and
>contraction to break the sheet or film into platelets of iron
>sulfate which can be picked up and worked into tools.
So does one find these iron platelets only near natural petroleum seepage
areas? Have they all been picked up by ancient peoples? There must have been
some natural oil seepage sites because the Sumerians and Babylonians made
regular usage of bitumen as a substance for caulking, artwork, and as fuel,
possibly for metal smelting. A possible metal smelting site from the Late
Uruk period, ca. 3200 B.C., is described by Hans J. Nissen on p. 82 of his The
Early History of the Ancient Near East. It would be great if you could give
some references for this phenomenon of iron sediments, because Near Eastern
archaeologists don't seem to know about it.
A. Leo Oppenheim said, "In the ancient Near East iron was both a newcomer to
be excluded in certain ideological contexts and a metal known from of old, a
metal that could fall from heaven and was therefore considered endowed with
magical properties." Ancient Mesopotamia, p. 322.
Regards,
John Halloran
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST)
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 96 18:34:02 GMT
In article <54r329$ibq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
alexeik@aol.com (AlexeiK) wrote:
>Paul Kekai Mansala wrote:
>>Regarding language, I do not know where Miguel goes off >saying that
>Egyptian is closer
>>to Berber and Semite than the languages of Nubia and the >Sudan. I had
>always heard the
>>best modern language to study to get an idea of ancient >Egyptian was
>modern Eastern
>>Sudani.
>What kind of language is "modern Eastern Sudani"? I've never heard of it.
>In the northern Sudan people speak Arabic; in the South they speak a
>variety of Nilotic languages, none of which are related to Egyptian. As
>for Miguel's statement, there's nothing in the least controversial about
>it: Egyptian, Berber and Semitic (as well as Cushitic, which includes
>Somali and Oromo, and Chadic, which includes Hausa) are all considered to
>be descended from a common Afro-Asiatic ancestor-language; they are *not*
>related to the Nilo-Saharan languages of Nubia and East Africa, although
>they've been in contact with them in historical times. This conclusion was
>not reached on a whim to prove a biased cultural point, but by people who
>actually learned the languages and comnpared their structures and
>vocabularies.
>AK
You didn't read Miguel's post close enough. He mentions the Beja who occupy
the Eastern Sudan and who speak a Cushitic language. He even cited an article
that claimed the Beja belonged to a people who inhabited the region between Eritrea
and Egypt from about 4,000 BC. I'm assuming the article supported the idea of
an origin of Afro-Asiatic in the Ethiopian region. Let's not forget that
the term "Cushitic" is derived from the word Cush (Kush).
However, Miguel's arguments are not based firmly on the Greenberg classification
you use above. There are scholars who do relate (modern) Nubian languages with
ancient Egyptian.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art And Beating Dead Horses!!!
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 96 18:55:15 GMT
In article <32713CA8.3BED@netins.net>, Xina wrote:
>Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>>
>> >You are the one who gets bent out of shape when it is pointed out to you
>> >in a calm and concise manner that there was an artistic cannon of
>> >Egyptian art, and that every glyph, every symbol every nuance was
>> >prescribed by that same cannon. Look at the glyph of a mouth (the
>> >letter R) it is ALWAYS Red, when it is painted, the Owl glyph (M) is
>> >ALWAYS Yellow.....the skin of Goddesses is ALWAYS yellow or gold....so
>> >my point is, you are going to have to live with the fact that the
>> >Eguptians did art, language, religion etc through the symbology, like it
>> >or not. No amount of conspiracy theories, no amount of jumping up and
>> >down nor denial is going to change the facts.
>> >
>>
>> These points above are incorrect. Goddesses do not always have yellow
>> skin. Forget about conspiracies, you don't even have your facts straight.
>
>Im sorry, I have enough confidence in my facts and I dont really give a
>damn if you agree with me or not. Please See "Treasures of the Nile"
>eited by Peter Bitstien, or Ancient Egyptian Art (dont have the author
>at the moment but can get it once I get home) take a look at each and
>every tomb in the Bitstien book. You show me *where* the human Netjert
>(Goddesses) are represented in another colour, other than a yellow, or
>in a few cases that I have seen a reddish colour.
So you admit your error, "Goddesses" (now qualified as Netjert) can now be
portrayed in "reddish" color. They also can be portrayed in black and many
other colors.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST)
From: Timothy Hall
Date: 25 Oct 1996 23:32:32 GMT
pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) wrote:
>In article <326EE403.17698307@decan.com>,
> "S. F. Thomas" wrote:
>>Saida wrote:
>>>
>>> S. F. Thomas wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Saida wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > S. F. Thomas wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > It is the eurocentrists who,
>>> > > > by contrast, are maddening in their obfuscation, and their
>>> > > > penchant for incestuous citing of "authority".
>>> > >
>>> > > Same old song and dance. One excuse fits all.
>>> > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Consider this one example, drawn from a recent exchange within
>>> > > > this very thread: I cited Diop's "African Origins" in making
>>> > > > the claim that Pharaoh Thutmose III, the so-called "Napoleon
>>> > > > of antiquity", looked Black African in appearance. A picture
>>> > > > of his bust appears on the cover of "African Origins". One of
>>> > > > my detractors said that Thutmose III was the least Nubian
>>> > > > looking of pharaohs that one could conceive, or words to that
>>> > > > effect. I said, well, here is a chance to prove Diop wrong
>>> > > > on a question of pure FACT. Is that the bust of Thutmose III,
>>> > > > or not. Nothing more is heard from this detractor on the subject,
>>> > > > but he leaves in a pout, calling me a "troll", and vowing not
>>> > > > to respond any more to my "drivel". Good Lord Almighty, give
>>> > > > me strength!
>>> > >
>>> > > Perhaps he could also arrange to give you a good case of jock-itch while
>>> > > He was at it. Since you can't stop talking about me, I must assume you
>>> > > miss me after all. First of all, I am not a "he", I am a woman. I am
>>> > > not the pouting kind. The reasons I didn't bother to debate your claims
>>> > > about Thutmose III are:
>>> > >
>>> > > 1. Your stock reply, your song and dance--see above.
>>> > > 2. I know you would discount everything I said, even though I am no
>>> > > Eurocentrist.
>>> > >
>>> > > 3. You are a bloody creep
>>> > >
>>> > > You offer the presence of a picture of Thothmose III on the cover of a
>>> > > book by Diop as proof that this pharaoh was black, as some sort of
>>> > > irrefutable FACT??? Oh, my goodness yes, that is the most convincing
>>> > > piece of factual evidence ever known to science. Just being on the
>>> > > cover of a book by Diop could send a man to jail faster than some of his
>>> > > DNA being on the scene of a crime! By your reasoning, even a blue-eyed,
>>> > > tow-headed Scandinavian could be called black by the sheer inarguable
>>> > > actuality that he is on the cover, or the fly-leaf, or whatever of a
>>> > > book by Diop!
>>> > >
>>> > > Right now I am not looking at a book by Diop, myself, but at a book
>>> > > about the royal mummies. I am looking at the face of Thutmose III. I
>>> > > see his great, aquiline nose, now crushed, his thin lips, his small,
>>> > > dimpled chin and his big, platycephalic head, shaved bald.
>>> >
>>> > Surely if you would calm down it might occur to you that
>>> > the figure you describe and the bust I describe may not
>>> > belong to the same person?
>>>
>>> You said Thutmose III! How the hell do you expect us to know whom you
>>> are talking about if you can't even identify the person??
>>
>>Clearly neither you nor I know THutmose III. We are both relying
>>on the representations made by those who have discovered the bust,
>>in my case, and the mummy, in yours. My point was that perhaps
>>Diop is wrong, or perhaps your book of photographs is wrong. The
>>bust that I am looking at is Black African, and I do not doubt
>>you when you say that the mummy you are looking at is not. The
>>question I pose is: was Diop wrong? or is your book of photographs?
>>
>
>S.F., the whole mummy thing is just a lot of smoke. Human hair
>loses color and thickness after death. It also changes texture
>( Rogers, Spencer Lee, _Personal identification from human remains_
>Springfield, Ill., Charles C. Thomas, c1987, p. 8). Hair can
>be altered by different chemicals and treatment. So, we can't
>even speculate on the effects of mummification.
>
>Heyerdahl was probably the first to use this technique when he used
>Peruvian mummy hair to support his theory on the white origin of
>civilization in the Western hemisphere.
>
>There is a study in which x-ray analysis is made of the royal mummies:
>
> _An X-ray atlas of the royal mummies_ edited by James E. Harris
> and Edward F. Wente, Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1980.
>
>The x-rays showed a strong occurence of prognathism among the 18th
>Dynasty Pharaohs. Thutmose I & II had rather extreme prognathism,
>as did the early royal queens. Also, a comparison of dental wear
>of nearly all the mummies with that of modern Nubians showed strong
>similarity.
>
>
>Regards,
>Paul
>
>
I thought I cleared this up...
Arab Egyptians, especially during the Pharoahs, were and are generally
Caucasoid, not Negroid. Go try your revisionist history on some other
NG, please.
PEACE
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art And Beating Dead Horses!!!
From: "S. F. Thomas"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 19:40:11 -0400
Xina wrote:
>
> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> >
> > >You are the one who gets bent out of shape when it is pointed out to you
> > >in a calm and concise manner that there was an artistic cannon of
> > >Egyptian art, and that every glyph, every symbol every nuance was
> > >prescribed by that same cannon. Look at the glyph of a mouth (the
> > >letter R) it is ALWAYS Red, when it is painted, the Owl glyph (M) is
> > >ALWAYS Yellow.....the skin of Goddesses is ALWAYS yellow or gold....so
> > >my point is, you are going to have to live with the fact that the
> > >Eguptians did art, language, religion etc through the symbology, like it
> > >or not. No amount of conspiracy theories, no amount of jumping up and
> > >down nor denial is going to change the facts.
> > >
> >
> > These points above are incorrect. Goddesses do not always have yellow
> > skin. Forget about conspiracies, you don't even have your facts straight.
>
> Im sorry, I have enough confidence in my facts and I dont really give a
> damn if you agree with me or not. Please See "Treasures of the Nile"
> eited by Peter Bitstien, or Ancient Egyptian Art (dont have the author
> at the moment but can get it once I get home) take a look at each and
> every tomb in the Bitstien book. You show me *where* the human Netjert
> (Goddesses) are represented in another colour, other than a yellow, or
> in a few cases that I have seen a reddish colour. You cite another
> colour such as what you percieve as black and I will believe you and I
> will concede to that fact. (BTW do you *know* how to tell the difference
> between a Goddess, a Queen and just an ordinary Egyptian woman in
> Egyptian Painting? Test Question for you, Paul) Until that time, you are
> simply trolling and grasping at straws.
>
> >
> > You have a lot of nerve painting a whole group based on the comments of a single person.
> > Isn't this what you (wrongfully) charge Afrocentrists of doing?
>
> Did you not read *some* not necessarily YOU? Did you miss that? Did
> you also perchance *miss* the fact that I agreed with you on some of
> your points. No, the "help Im being oppressed and my legacy has been
> stolen!" syndrome has driven you to a point where *apparently* you
> didn't see that. I was citing an example of extreme Afrocentrism,
> apparently however that fact seems to have elluded you.
>
> The internet is full of
> > racist whites spouting crap continously. Should I generalize their behavior to you? There i
> > s absolutely nothing wrong with Africans and other non-whites seeking vindication for
> > centuries of racist scholarship (which they are still battling to this day).
>
> Damn straight, Baby!! And I lived the racist lies all my life, same as
> you, yet because I want to see concretized facts, and I want to see
> Afrocentric scholars present thier information with as much attention to
> detail as any other scholar is expected to, you accuse me of being a
> hypocrite!
>
> The past is past, no amount of bitching is going to change it. I happen
> to love Egypt for herself and her history her art, her religious and
> mythological legacy are nothing less than incredible. Its given me alot
> of years of joy just learning all I can about it, and its sad that
> somehow for *some* people that isnt enough now we have to turn it into
> some sort of thing that can be "claimed' and mounted on a wall or placed
> on a mantle and displayed.
>
> Im **always** ready to listen to the evidence, and I have no problem
> with whatever colour the pharaohs end up being (one or 100 or ALL of
> them) but when you put out and out bullshit about the art and the
> history that is completely and utterly wrong on line, I and others are
> going to call you on it. If Im wrong I am MORE than happy to admit it.
>
> All of this kind of reminds me of a thread on alt.native where some
> self-styled "expert" insisted Geronimo wasnt an Apache but in fact a
> Lakota.
Very noble sentiments, belied however by the selectivity of
the outrage expressed. If there is a battle between your Native-
American self and your European self I have little doubt which
one is winning... Whatever the external cloak deployed--Native
American, naturally--to lay spurious claim to objectivity and
dispassion. You succeed in fooling yourself. No one
else.
> Xina
Regards,
S. F. Thomas
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST)
From: "S. F. Thomas"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 20:27:10 -0400
Timothy Hall wrote:
> Arab Egyptians, especially during the Pharoahs, were and are generally
> Caucasoid, not Negroid.
Where were the Arabs when the Egyptian high culture was
founded?
This guy is in for a rude shock when he looks at the
likeness of the sphinx, the god Ausar, the proto-historical
Egyptian figure Lord Tera Neter, and the first pharaoh Narmer.
He is also in for a rude shock if and when he actually
visits Egypt.
> Go try your revisionist history on some other
> NG, please.
Unfortunately we all have to unlearn a lot of LIES that
were taught by the eurocentric writers, and re-writers,
of history. The first revisionists were those who
developed the "Aryan Model", which denied the Black
African provenance of ancient Egypt, and which was
such a masterful exercise in white feel-good propaganda,
masquerading as truth, that most people still believe that
the ancient Egyptians were white, and that "afrocentrist"
is a word for some type of boogeyman.
What NG are you posting from? If you don't like the
discussion, use your kill-file.
Regards,
S. F. Thomas
"Truth has traction; and traction generates heat. Boo!"
Subject: Re: MUSEUM LOVERS: What's Happening to Boston's MFA???
From: Alexandra Haropulos
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:55:32 GMT
Fragments wrote:
>
> The Boston Museum of Fine Arts, arguably host to one of the finest
> collections of classical antiquities in America, is showing signs of wear
> and tear after several years of budget cuts, staff reductions and
> lower-than-expected fundraising.
>
I'm afraid I have a slightly different take on this "problem".
I was very familiar with the MFA 30 years ago, and found it
an excellent place that made a serious effort to be a museum
and not a showcase; in other words, they kept a good
spectrum of items on display and damn the level of public
interest in fads or placing just a few objects in a large
space and calling it a "show".
Like a number of other museums in the '70's and 80's that
acccepted a huge influx of Federal dollars, the MFA turned
itself into a toy for "curators" that were more window-
dressers than scholars. They are now paying the price
for creating an unmaintainable showcase, and bloating
their staff with "communications specialists" and
other chaff.
I hope they manage to win back to virtue, but to my
mind what the MFA needs right now is a good dose of
fiscal realism and a 50-year outlook. They might
just get back to the basics of conserving and
displaying as much art as possible.
Alexandra_Haropulos@co.xerox.com
Subject: Re: Aircraft Flight Paths & Pyramids?
From: heinrich@intersurf.com (Paul V. Heinrich)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 21:08:17 -0600
In article <3270072B.24CB@ix.netcom.com>,
matthuse@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Alan Alford wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Visited your page. Saw the following footnote: "(4) Dr Robert Schoch, a
> geologist at Boston University, highlighted the weathering profile of
> the limestone rock, out of which the Sphinx had been carved. This
> weathering could only have been caused by prolonged rainfall, leading
> Schoch to estimate that the Sphinx had to be between 9,000 and 12,000
> years old. Nearly three hundred geologists have endorsed Schoch's
> conclusions."
>
> Could you please clarify two things? Where did Schoch publish
> the age estimate of 9000 to 12000 years old? Who were these
> 300 geologists and where can we see this endorsement? This same
> myth has been circulating for years on sci.arch and no one knows
> who they are. Since you have this on your web page, I'm sure you
> must.
I would hypothesize that these numbers come from a similar
source as the claim there have been 500 dissertations
written about the Piltdown Man. :-)
Yours,
Paul V. Heinrich
heinrich@intersurf.com
Baton Rouge, LA
Subject: Re: Old Copper Culture in the Lake Forest Tradition.
From: August Matthusen
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 19:42:21 -0700
Wade Westworth wrote:
>
> I am looking for information on the subject of the Old Copper Culture in
> the lake forest tradition.
>
> If you have information on this subject you can post it here or better
> yet email me at dbaron.gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
>
> I appreciate any information that you can send me!!
You may want to take a look at these references:
Rapp, G. Jr, E. Henrickson, J. Allert, 1990. Native Copper sources of
Artifact Copper in pre-Columbian North America; in Lasca N.P and
Donahue, J. eds, Archaeological Geology of North America, ., Geological
Society of America, Centennial Special Volume 4, pp. 479-498.
Vernon, W.W., 1990. New Archaeomettallurgical perspectives on the Old
Copper Industry of North America; in Lasca N.P and Donahue, J. eds,
Archaeological Geology of North America, ., Geological Society of
America, Centennial Special Volume 4, pp. 499-512.
Rapp et al. (1990) list 540 locations in North America
where native (elemental) copper sources were
exploited. Vernon (1990) describes in more detail the
Old Copper industry, but I don't see a specific mention
of the lake forest tradition. Both articles have
extensive bibliographies; you may be able to find more
info there.
Regards,
August Matthusen
[posted and mailed to auto-reply address because e-mail address in
post does not appear correct as it doesn't have an "@"]
Subject: CAPE TOWN EGYPTIAN SOCIETY
From: grenvill@iafrica.com (Keith Grenville)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 05:35:58 GMT
F O U N D A T I O N M E E T I N G
of
T H E C A P E T O W N E G Y P T I A N S O C I E T Y
*7.30pm Monday, 4 November*
**The Josephine Mill, Boundary Road, Newlands, Cape Town, South Africa**
Interested persons are invited to attend a free illustrated lecture entitled
"Egyptian Odyssey" and hear about the new society, which will provide a minimum
of 10 meetings per annum comprising lectures, videos, films, visits to places
relevant to the interests of the society and other activities.
The subscription (R60) will include free entry to normal society lectures,
quarterly newsletter, access to an "Information Pool", discount on
Egypt-related books, travel options and other privileges. There will be close
liaison with the South African Cultural History Museum (Egyptian collection).
Membership applications and subscription payments for the first year will be
accepted at the foundation meeting on 4th November.
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa
Telephone/Fax (021) 72 9471
Subject: CAPE TOWN EGYPTIAN SOCIETY
From: grenvill@iafrica.com (Keith Grenville)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 05:36:29 GMT
F O U N D A T I O N M E E T I N G
of
T H E C A P E T O W N E G Y P T I A N S O C I E T Y
*7.30pm Monday, 4 November*
**The Josephine Mill, Boundary Road, Newlands, Cape Town, South Africa**
Interested persons are invited to attend a free illustrated lecture entitled
"Egyptian Odyssey" and hear about the new society, which will provide a minimum
of 10 meetings per annum comprising lectures, videos, films, visits to places
relevant to the interests of the society and other activities.
The subscription (R60) will include free entry to normal society lectures,
quarterly newsletter, access to an "Information Pool", discount on
Egypt-related books, travel options and other privileges. There will be close
liaison with the South African Cultural History Museum (Egyptian collection).
Membership applications and subscription payments for the first year will be
accepted at the foundation meeting on 4th November.
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa
Telephone/Fax (021) 72 9471
Subject: CAPE TOWN EGYPTIAN SOCIETY
From: grenvill@iafrica.com (Keith Grenville)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 05:37:05 GMT
F O U N D A T I O N M E E T I N G
of
T H E C A P E T O W N E G Y P T I A N S O C I E T Y
*7.30pm Monday, 4 November*
**The Josephine Mill, Boundary Road, Newlands, Cape Town, South Africa**
Interested persons are invited to attend a free illustrated lecture entitled
"Egyptian Odyssey" and hear about the new society, which will provide a minimum
of 10 meetings per annum comprising lectures, videos, films, visits to places
relevant to the interests of the society and other activities.
The subscription (R60) will include free entry to normal society lectures,
quarterly newsletter, access to an "Information Pool", discount on
Egypt-related books, travel options and other privileges. There will be close
liaison with the South African Cultural History Museum (Egyptian collection).
Membership applications and subscription payments for the first year will be
accepted at the foundation meeting on 4th November.
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa
Telephone/Fax (021) 72 9471
Subject: Re: Biblical view of Egypt cannot be disproven by mere rude propaganda
From: "Patricia A. Shaffer"
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:15:44 -0400
Pharaoh Chromium 93 wrote:
>
> Atlas wrote:
> >
> > Beautiful, but last that I checked with several Biblical scholars, the
> > afor mentioned flood actually did take place. It has been found in more
> > than one ancient documents reference to the flood that destroyed most of
> > the area and killed most of the people living in that region. If I'm
> > wrong, please let me know.
>
> Because the flood allegory was an almost universal tradition.
Peace, brothers!
You might look into the geological studies done on the Sphinx recently,
and read some of John Anthony West's material. The modern geologists
said that the weathering of the Sphinx is more consistent with the
effects of water ... being submerged ... than with wind and sand. Also,
since the ancient Egyptians were so precise on proportions in their
structures, the new idea is that about a quarter of the upper part of
the original Sphinx is missing ... the image we now see is a much later
one than the original, and forensic specialists say it is not that of
Chephren.
Ramsa
Subject: Re: Deluge Info
From: sudsm@aol.com (SUDSM)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 05:18:51 -0400
Jonathon & Marcus,
.
Marcus.utbox@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
>> I need info on the variations of the flood story, Biblical,
>>Babylonian, and Sumerian. Especially the similarities/
>>differences between the three heroes. Any ideas for books or
>>periodicals tha would help? Any info would be appreciated.
.
and Jonathan Ferguson wrot:
>N.M. Bailkey's "Readings in Ancient History" 5th ed. (1996)
>includes both the Hebrew Noah myth and the Sumerian Ziusudra myth
>as appended to the Epic of Gilgamesh under his Babylonian name
>Utnapishtim.
.
You will find important information about "The Destruction of
Mankind" or "Deluge" story (found in one form or another all over
the world) in the preamble to my "Biblical Chronology". If your
system displays files in proportional spacing that will mess up
the columnization of the chronology, but it won't affect the
preamble about the "Deluge". If you need to restore the columns
for the chronology you can do that by writing the file to your
hard disk. Go to File and "Save as" (filename) OK, then read the
(filename) on your hard disk with any wordprocessor that will read
an 80 column ASCII file.
The problem with the "Deluge" story is that the name (Noah)
changes with languages, and various details of the story changed
with time; but it is still recognizable as the same story, hence
differences are of no consequence -- though sometimes interesting.
The Hebrew version (Noah, et al) is in the "first book" of Genesis
(the first 11 chapters) and was already ancient when Moses wrote
or had it written for the Torah. It is grossly distorted in all
versions but, as Frazer has pointed out, we still commemorate "The
Destruction of Mankind) in November -- it is the Egyptina New Year
"Festival of the Dead" (Nov. 1 by our Greg. calendar) and it is our
Halloween.
Suds
DARWIN IS BURIED IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY WITH OTHER CHURCH OF ENGLAND GREATS
Subject: Re: Pyramids and Aliens
From: sudsm@aol.com (SUDSM)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 05:16:11 -0400
Baron & Charlie,
.
Baron Szabo writes:
>Any furthur debate should be exploring whether actual bodies would ever
>have been within the various sarcophagi. This line of discussion is
>very interesting and very relevant.
.
and, Charlie Rigano writes:
>Queen Iput I was a wife of Teti. In her pyramid at
>Saqqarra, in the burial, in the sarcophagus, which had the
>lid still cemented in place, inside the ceder coffin was
>found the Queen's body.
Why shouldn't some of them be tombs and some just monuments?
The problem is in confusing the Great Pyramid with "the pyramids".
The GP was not and could not have been a tomb. There is no
decoration of any kind anywhere within the GP. That is
inconceivable for a tomb. It is difficult enough to conceive that
it was even Egyptian!
.
It could not have been used as a tomb anyway. The ascending
passage is sealed off by a twenty ton granite plug at its lower
end. Even correcting for subsidence and other deterioration, that
plug could not have been moved in the ascending passage. It has
to have been built in place right where it is. Since the GP was
completed at least seven years before the death of Khufu, the so-
called King's Chamber and Queen's Chamber were inaccessible for
tombs, even if the lack of decortions did not rule out such use.
.
There is no question, however, that the GP had enormous
religious significance to the Egyptians. That would explain, not
only the "spirit ship" placed there, but also the copying of its
form ever after (and all over the world) for tombs and/or
monuments. It also tends to confirm the theory that Zoser's
pyramid, and the two Sneferu pyramids, built before the GP, were
built for the purpose of developing the needed labor organizing
and building techniques, with the GP as the goal all along.
.
In any event "the pyramids" of Egypt should never include or
be confused with the GP, which is in a class by itself.
.
Suds
DARWIN IS BURIED IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY WITH OTHER CHURCH OF ENGLAND GREATS
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art and Beating Dead Horses!!!!
From: Xina
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 07:58:49 +0000
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>Xina wrote:
>>Im sorry, I have enough confidence in my facts and I dont really give a
>>damn if you agree with me or not. Please See "Treasures of the Nile"
>>eited by Peter Bitstien, or Ancient Egyptian Art (dont have the author
>>at the moment but can get it once I get home) take a look at each and
>>every tomb in the Bitstien book. You show me *where* the human >Netjert
>(Goddesses) are represented in another colour, other than a yellow, or
>in a few cases that I have seen a reddish colour.
So you admit your error, "Goddesses" (now qualified as Netjert)
'Netjert' is the Ancient Egyptian word losely translated as Goddesses,
but you are a hack scholar and dont know that obviously! "T" is the
female determanative for the word "Netjer" look it UP!
can now beportrayed in "reddish" color. They also can be portrayed in
black and many other colors.
Here are the ONLY colours that I have ever seen Anywhere for colours
for Goddesses. I will cite you my sources. YOu find me a bloody
source for a black one anywhere and I will bow to your brand of hack
'scholarship' Unitl then I shall not hold my breath because I know I
should die of asphixiation!
The colours are according to the artistic cannon for Goddesses
(Netjert):
1)yellow
2) reddish brown (I have seen ONE illustration of the Goddess Ma'at on a
papyrus, please see "the Book of the Dead papyrus of Nakht on page 108
of the Dictionary of Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw and Paul Nicholson, 1995)
3) blue (gasp!) I have seen this again ONE time with the goddess Nut
Please see "Treasures of the Nile by Kamal El Mallackh, edited by Robert
Bianchi, (yes I had the name wrong earlier, I was at work....I cant very
well tote around my entire library, a few hundred books arent that
portable) on page 138...I think she is BLUE because she is a SKY
Netjert, or do you suppose since the British were the ones in the
Ancient world who painted themselves blue that Nut might have hailed
from Britain?
I understand of course no amount of reference materials and citations
that I can produce will suffice to convince you otherwise, but I might
ask that you read 'Egyptian Painting " by Arpag Mekhitarian, Rizzoli
Books, 1978, who is an expert on the subject. Of course I believe this
source again doesnt cite Diop so right away it disqualifies itself as
being worthy of your consideration.
I know what Im talking about, but then I have an advantage,I am
objective and dont care what colour the Egyptians are and were.
Em Hotep!
Xina
"Race and colour of skin, illusions of the world are these, as all
matter. A thing of geography and circumstance are they. All souls are
of the same Father-Mother. They who can overcome the ignorance of their
culture will embrace all humanity and creation as their kin."
- An Ancient Egyptian Proverb
Think on that one awhile, Paul...
Subject: Re: Nefertiti (was Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST))
From: mobius@smart.net (Stephen Hendricks)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 13:16:29 GMT
Saida wrote:
>Stephen Hendricks wrote:
>> >> modern copiers, not the Egyptians.
>> >>
>> >> >Why is it that there is no talk of "artistic canon" when
>> >> >Nefertiti and pink skin tones are involved?
>> >>
>> >> There should be. Nefertiti and the others there are clearly neither "white"
>> >> nor "black" in the sense you people want. Nefertiti looks, in fact, like
>> >> a much improved version of Boutros Boutros-Ghali.
>>
>> >I don't know about that, but I can buy the olive-skin or yellow-ish
>> >cast. I have never seen the bust of Nefertiti in person, only color
>> >photos, which are not necessarily reliable. Yet I wonder why you would
>> >say that a person with an olive skin cannot be considered "white"?
>>
>> Being caucausian involves a lot more characteristics than skin color.
>> The Asian Indians are also caucasians, are not negroid or hamitic.
>> Nefetiti, is clearly the image of the Ideal European woman, when
>> disregarding skin color. Nefertari image is clearly Negroid in
>You have clearly never been in the tomb of Nefertari! The artist there
>painted her with various pink tones that make her actually bloom with
>beauty. There is nothing "Negroid" about this lady except in your
>imagination.
>> appearance.
>>
>> If we are going to discuss superficial characteristics, we should
>> discuss the entire group that makes up a racial description.
>> Nefertiti, could easily have been GREEK, as was Cleopatra VIII.
>> Mobius: in admiration of Mobius and Crelle
>> Mobius Digital Services - Custom Computers
>> and Web Services.Stephen Hendricks- mobius@smart.net
>Nefertiti Greek?? Anything is possible, I suppose, but you are
>indulging in unwarranted speculation here because there is NOTHING to
>indicate any Hellenistic background for this queen.
No I am not suggesting she was Greek, I am merely repeating what the
Egyptians told me who were guiding me up and down the chambers of the
tombs. They are highly amused, in general, that the blacks in the USA
want to claim that the ancient Egyptians are of negroid descent. They
pointed out to me, that where there was a Nubian, they were always
depicted as black in the wall murals. And they also take high offense
at the suggestion that Nefertiti was black, pointing out, amoung other
observations, that based on the statue (unfinished and unstolen) in
the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, that Nefertiti could be a modern
European Woman, clearly not negro in any facial characteristic. There
is a aquline noise, straight hair, narrow lips, a prominent nasal
bridge etc.. all obvious caucasian characteristics.
As for Nefertari, I was in one tomb where here image was painted in
Black, and my Egyptian Guide, who is a family friend told me she was
Nubian. If you know better, then I bow to your knowledge.
I do think the point of this discusison, is that the person claiming
all ancient Egyptian were black, is clearly applying racist principles
where none are needed. This detracts from any useful discussion, and
is basically irrelevant. Since the basis for the Afro-Centrism in the
USA is based on the activities of the Prince Albert lodges, which
attempted to copy the Free Masons (according to the book "Not Out of
Africa") it is clear this concept can do nothing more than destroy
the credibility of those proposing these theories.
Mobius: in admiration of Mobius and Crelle
Mobius Digital Services - Custom Computers
and Web Services.Stephen Hendricks- mobius@smart.net
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST)
From: mcv@pi.net (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:22:01 GMT
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>
> In article <54r329$ibq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> alexeik@aol.com (AlexeiK) wrote:
> >Paul Kekai Mansala wrote:
> >>Regarding language, I do not know where Miguel goes off saying that
> >>Egyptian is closer
> >>to Berber and Semite than the languages of Nubia and the Sudan. I had
> >>always heard the
> >>best modern language to study to get an idea of ancient Egyptian was
> >>modern Eastern Sudani.
> >What kind of language is "modern Eastern Sudani"? I've never heard of it.
> >In the northern Sudan people speak Arabic; in the South they speak a
> >variety of Nilotic languages, none of which are related to Egyptian. As
> >for Miguel's statement, there's nothing in the least controversial about
> >it: Egyptian, Berber and Semitic (as well as Cushitic, which includes
> >Somali and Oromo, and Chadic, which includes Hausa) are all considered to
> >be descended from a common Afro-Asiatic ancestor-language; they are *not*
> >related to the Nilo-Saharan languages of Nubia and East Africa, although
> >they've been in contact with them in historical times. This conclusion was
> >not reached on a whim to prove a biased cultural point, but by people who
> >actually learned the languages and comnpared their structures and
> >vocabularies.
>
> You didn't read Miguel's post close enough.
I believe that post came after the one this is responding to.
> He mentions the Beja who occupy
> the Eastern Sudan and who speak a Cushitic language. He even cited an article
> that claimed the Beja belonged to a people who inhabited the region between Eritrea
> and Egypt from about 4,000 BC. I'm assuming the article supported the idea of
> an origin of Afro-Asiatic in the Ethiopian region. Let's not forget that
> the term "Cushitic" is derived from the word Cush (Kush).
Not quite. The EB (that's Encyclopaedia Brittanica when I'm lazy)
article ["Beja"] claims that the Beja have occupied the coastal mountain
zone, between the Nile and the Red Sea, ever since at least 4,000 BC.
That is to say: *not* the land of Kush (Wawat, Nubia, Middle Nile, etc.)
There is no discussion of AA origins in the article. The term Cushitic
is modern European usage, and has suffered the same geographical shift
as the term Ethiopia (the Greek word for Nubia). We're just stuck with
it.
> However, Miguel's arguments are not based firmly on the Greenberg classification
> you use above. There are scholars who do relate (modern) Nubian languages with
> ancient Egyptian.
My arguments were based on the modern classification of the Afro-Asiatic
languages, which is basically in agreement with Greenberg. The only
scholars I'm aware of that related the modern Nubian languages to
Ancient Egyptian were 19th and early 20th century German scholars
(Mueller, Meinhof), whose results were based only on typological and
racial arguments, not on anything that might be considered serious
evidence today. Just compare, as a tiny sample, Berber nekk, Egyptian
inok, Semitic anaku, Somali anigu, Margi niyu "I" versus Nubian ai, "I".
Old (8th-14th c. AD) and Modern Nubian are members of the Nilo-Saharan
language family, which consists of:
1. Songhai [doubtful] (Timbuktu/Niger bend, W. Africa)
2. Saharan (Tibesti --> Kanem)
3. Maban-Fur (Waddai and Darfur)
4. East Sudanic
a. Nubian and related languages (Nubia, Kordofan)
b. Nyimang-Temein-Tama-Daju (Kordofan, Darfur, Waddai)
c. Nilotic (e.g. Shilluk, Luo-Acholi, Nuer, Dinka, Karamajong,
Turkana, Maasai; Upper Nile --> E. Africa)
d. Kuliak (Upper Nile)
5. Central Sudanic
a. Kresh-Bongo-Bagirmi (S. Chad)
b. Moru-Madi-Mangbetu (NE. Zaire)
6. Berta-Kunama (Sudan-Ethiopia border)
7. Komuz (Sudan-Ethiopia border)
The Nubian language first appears as the language of the Nubian kingdoms
of Pachoras (Faras), Makurra (Mugarra) [later merged into the Dunqulah
(Dongola) kingdom], and `Alwah (Alodia, Aloa, Subah), after the
destruction of Meroe by the Beja and the Axumites.
The language of the Meroe kingdom of Nubia is known from inscriptions
from the 6th c. BC to the 4th c. AD. It is believed to be Nilo-Saharan,
possibly related to the Komuz (Koma-Gumuz) languages now spoken on the
Sudan-Ethiopia border. Archaeologically, Meroitic can be traced back to
the Nubians of the 25th Egyptian Dynasty, and before that, to the Karmah
culture of Kush (S. Nubia) and the C-group of Wawat (N. Nubia).
There is no direct evidence for the language of the A-group Nubians.
Based on the early geographical distribution of the Nilo-Saharan and
Afro-Asiatic peoples, my speculation would be Northern Cushitic (Beja).
The Nilo-Saharans probably came in from the West or South (Darfur,
Kordofan) in at least two waves (Meroitic-Komuz and Nilotic-Nubian),
driving a wedge between the Egyptians and the Cushites by occupying the
Middle Nile (Nubia).
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
mcv@pi.net |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Subject: Re: BLACKNESS in Egyptian Art, Murals, etc. (REPOST)
From: Saida
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 10:01:43 -0500
>
> Actually, I could give you dozens of other attempts to classify Egyptian,
> given your timeline of the late 70s, but generally I don't think a close
> relationship between Egyptian and Semitic has ever been widely accepted.
> Previously, Egyptian was treated as a Hamitic language closely related
> to those found south of Egypt. This was based largely on morphology.
> The widely-accepted modern theories like those of Greenberg classify Egyptian
> as a totally separate family.
>
> One problem with Egyptian-Semitic comparisons is Egyptian is composed mostly
> of monosyllabic roots of one or two consonants. Semitic has mostly two-syllable
> roots with three consonants. There are many other problems, but that would be
> better addressed in a linguistic forum.
This is hilarious. Again, you are displaying a vast ignorance.
Egyptian has been classified as an Afro-Asiatic language. It's
similarity to the Semitic languages is overwhelmingly evident to anyone
who knows Egyptian (and Hebrew, Arabic, etc.) and it is also
overwhelmingly evident that you have no idea what you are talking about.