Newsgroup sci.archaeology 49621

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"Michael D. Painter"  wrote:
>That hardly applies here. Had Scientific American gone to the site, watched
>the flight, and then published the above their might be a comparison.
>Conrad has had his rocks investigated by a number of people, people HE
>picked.
>How many such incidents have occurred since 1906? That was a while back.
Yes Scientific American could have gone to the site, but didn't. Yes,
it may have been a while back. A more recent example is cold fusion
where Pons and Fleischmann were accused of all manner of crimes in the
press. Yet Eneco now have a European patent on Pons-Fleischmann
technology.
Ian.

Satrap Szabo  wrote:
>Greg Reeder wrote:
>> 
>> So now we have two choices? Outer space or Atlantus? Why not the genius
>> of the Egyptians?
>
>I still think its weird that the Giza pyramid builders had knowledge of
>geometrical pie (among many other things) and yet hadn't invented the
>wheel until the Hyksos introduced it to them 1000 years later.
>
>It's sort of like the advanced Mayan knowedge of celestial dynamics
>although they hadn't invented the wheel either.
>
>
>> I do not think the Gods were flesh and blood...outside of Iuemhotep and
>> Amunhotep son of Hapu and Khufu the Great and ...well you know what I
>> mean. Most of the Gods were the Sun, the air, the Nile, the land, the
>> horizon, the sky, the desert,The abyss, the hidden, the all, etc.That is
>> natural states.
>
>You don't think...  That's your best evidence?    ;)    Sorry, just
>playing devil's advocate.  And I DO advocate the devil, since the
>serpent was really the good guy in the old texts.   :)
>
When it comes to stating the physical reality of the gods I can only use 
my imagination.
>Yes, Imhotep was a flesh and blood mortal elevated to worship status.
>What is your evidence that the earliest OK gods were merely concepts
>like land, horizon, sky, etc.?  It seems to me that these were epithets
>of beings (perhaps contrived) that were described as traveling in boats
>of millions of years, or dwelling in the afterlife world, or underworld,
>or actually walking in flesh and blood on Earth.  Remember the ancient
>Egyptians affinity and reverence for multiple metaphor? (which I admit
>is pretty ambivelant evidence...)
 I know of no evidence that would indicate otherwise. The Egytians 
worshipped those forces around them that affected them. As I mentioned 
there were those occasional "real people" that became divine. But I don't 
believe Re, Nut, Nun, Atum, Sekhmet, Amun, or Horus or Isis were ever 
human. There has been some talk that maybe Osiris had been based on a 
real King who had died but I think 
( sorry that is all I can go on) it more likely that he is a 
anthropormorphism of  the vegitative and regenerative process of nature.
>
>zoomQuake - A nifty, concise listing of over 200 ancient history links.
>            Copy the linklist page if you want! (do not publish though)
>----------> http://www.iceonline.com/home/peters5/
-- 
_
_____
Greg Reeder
On the WWW
at Reeder's Egypt Page
---------------->http://www.sirius.com/~reeder/egypt.html
reeder@sirius.com

In article <327bb343.497675@news.easynet.co.uk>, ian@knowledge.co.uk (Ian
Tresman) wrote:
> "Michael D. Painter"  wrote:
> 
> >That hardly applies here. Had Scientific American gone to the site, watched
> >the flight, and then published the above their might be a comparison.
> >Conrad has had his rocks investigated by a number of people, people HE
> >picked.
> >How many such incidents have occurred since 1906? That was a while back.
> 
> Yes Scientific American could have gone to the site, but didn't. Yes,
> it may have been a while back. A more recent example is cold fusion
> where Pons and Fleischmann were accused of all manner of crimes in the
> press. Yet Eneco now have a European patent on Pons-Fleischmann
> technology.
> 
That's a jaundiced reading of recent history. I was there at the U of Utah
when Pons & Fleischmann made their announcement (I worked in the biology
building, right next door to chemistry). Remember that P&F; published this
stuff in Science and Nature -- that doesn't sound like any kind of 
suppression by the scientific establishment. The initial tone of all
the early reports was cautious, dubious optimism and curiousity. There was
definitely a much more openly encouraging attitude by the press than you
imply! 
That attitude did become more hostile fairly quickly, I will admit. The 
reason for that, though, was that everybody had serious problems replicating
the experiment, and P&F; were not at all forthcoming with useful protocols.
And I saw the U of Utah sink quite a bit of money into that pit before they
got forced out of the business by some ethical improprieties with diversions
of funds (not by P&F;, but by over-enthusiastic members of the U administration).
And yes, they may have a patent, but that is meaningless. I don't see anyone
heating their homes, powering their cars, or even running a transistor radio
off the P&F; technology.
-- 
Paul Myers                               Department of Biology
myers@netaxs.com                         Temple University
http://fishnet.bio.temple.edu/           Philadelphia, PA 19122

> >Bryan Atherton wrote:
> >> Eli, If there is so much error in the findings of past and present
> >> scholars, why should you be correct, you yourself claim that you are a
> >> voice going unheard, if you were correct in your claims and had any
> >> trace of proof your talk would not fall on deaf ears!  Why should we
> >> listen to you (no offence) but i need more than what sounds like mere
> >> speculation.
>Eliyehowah wrote:
> >John's voice and Jesus' voice fell on deaf ears too.
Angus Mann wrote:
> You're likening yourself to Jesus?
I note that you ignore my signature referring to John so that you
can induce a greater dispruption with the use of Jesus' name.
Where am I likened to Jesus. Rather **YOU** bitch are being likened
to the killers of Jesus. So go to war. Many a men kill whole cities to
please the ruling bitch.
I recall that your evil brothers likewise spoke as you to Jesus by saying
that he himself claimed to be God, of which he never did.
And then you people after killing him resolve wash your hands by
saying he WAS indeed God who wanted to die, no judicial crime 
occurring against him. Are you again preparing people to carry out
your judicial crimes? You have the perfect psyche to do so !
And God knows their are now millions like you.
> Someone really is off the fucking planet.
> Perhaps people don't listen to you because it is obvious, at first glance, that
> your writings are those of a mentally unstable loser who has never had any
> attention in his life because he is, at his core, utterly worthless, and who
> believes that it's easier to sit in front of a keyboard than stand on top of a
> soapbox outside his local train station, and that others thus have no interest
> whatsoever in your ravings.
>                           Angus Mann, Sydney Australia
>                           eMail amann@mail.usyd.edu.au
BTW your country has a problem when American sailors say that you
have a custom of letting your women gather on piers to take them home
to feed and bed them.
Gee throw your hat to them with your name in it and they'll take you home.
Two hats and you got a choice !
Some even have husbands who feed you and give you bed. They like
watching you with their wife !  I suggest you find a moral code for your
country before you accuse this world of having too many people
behaving like Jesus. Of course in your mind, you always win if you
accuse them of claiming to be Jesus.
************
A voice crying out and going unheard,
http://www.execpc.com/~elijah/myPhoto.gif
(40 years Oct 7) Nehemiah's (9:1) 50th JUBILEE of Tishri 24 
elijah@wi.net
Discover the world's true chronology thru the Bible at
          http://www.execpc.com/~elijah
God's 1000 years has begun Sep 14 of 1996.
http://www.execpc.com/~elijah/Ezra1991CE.gif

In Article<55gaoa$ktr@fridge-nf0.shore.net>,  write:
> Path: 
ddsw1!news.mcs.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!cam-ne
ws-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-f
eed2.bbnplanet.com!shore!news
> From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
> Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
> Subject: Re: The Mystery of Pyramid
> Date: 2 Nov 1996 20:25:46 GMT
> Organization: Federal Street Architects
> Lines: 60
> Message-ID: <55gaoa$ktr@fridge-nf0.shore.net>
> References: <325D208D.7DCA@pl.jaring.my> <3269B520.1ABA@sympatico.ca> 
<54dig6$rlu@dole.uninett.no> <326a8dbe.4402513@netnews.worldnet.att.net> 
<54uv46$6mg@news.enterprise.net>  
<5595m4$nut@sun.sirius.com> <327B27D4.5704@iceonline.com> 
<327B82C1.230F@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-16-10.slip.shore.net
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
> X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.6
> 
> In article <327B82C1.230F@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>, 
> saida@PioneerPlanet.infi.net says...
> >
> >Satrap Szabo wrote:
> >> 
> >> Greg Reeder wrote:
> >> >
> >> > So now we have too choices? Outer space or Atlantus? Why not the genius
> >> > of the Egyptians?
> >> 
> >> 
> steve
There may be more choices - where is the design trail.  By 
this I mean where are the little pyramids.  As a commercial
artist I know that many good designs are the result of
experiment and this must be the same in serious engineering.
There is more.  How did the Egyptians transfer their results to
the Yucatan and the Myans.  Nobody seems to care how they, the Myans,
did it.
I have a hard time understanding how early engineers could decide to
build a pyramid, Egypt, with all the requirements that a decision like
that takes.  It has been estimated that an undertaking of that magnitude
would be impossible today.
My point is that the historical impact is just as important as trying
to determine whether the builders used the wheel or a cord with knots.
Norb

    > In article , grenvill@iafrica.com 
    > (Keith Grenville) writes:
    > |>
    > |> Perfection is difficult to attain and maintain!  Maybe it didn't 
    > "quite" fit!  
    > |> Certainly the tiny gap can be seen on the video record.  Remind 
    > yourself also 
    > |> that there was/is evidence of a "black dust" indicating organic 
    > decomposition.
    > |>     > 
    > |>     > Consider also that one of the two metal handles has broken off 
    > the door
    > |>     > and is lying on the shaft floor. These two facts suggest to me 
    > that the
    > |>     > custodians of the Great Pyramid have already looked behind the 
    > door using
    > |>     > an endoscope...
    > |>     > 
    > 
    > 
    > This was an interesting posting, but was it interesting enough to
    > post five times?
Only if you read it five times!  Hopefully you discovered the repetition before 
you embarked on the fifth posting.   Sorry!  The quintuplet posting was a fault 
of my computer and not a fault of my intention.  Notwithstanding, I am glad you 
consider it an interesting posting!
----
Keith Grenville
Cape Town, South Africa
Telephone/Fax (021) 72 9471

>Dear sir
>Regards your site and the statement that the Egyptians did
>not have the wheel.
Cant respectfully call me sir if you claim anywhere that
I said the Egyptians had no wheel. If this were so, then
how did they roll the cubit to obtain pyramid length?
>People said the Egyptians did not have the counter weight
>to build their temples and pyramids. I know they had the 
>shadouf for water drawing, this is the counter weight. 
>On a similar note I suspect they had the wheel long before 
>the 18th dynasty.
>People said the camel wasn't domesticated 4,000 years ago, 
>therefore Isaac's wife did not come to him by camel, there-
>fore the bible is wrong. But we know now that the camel was
>domesticated then. Now Toyota boasts their 4 wheel
>drive supersedes 4,000 years of camels!
>The Egyptians had the wheel. Their measurements of pi, and
>measuring in general was probably done with this device. It
>is a short stroke to turn this into a cart or chariot.
You seem to think biblical evidence is being ignored by me.
Rather, I posted that it is biblical scholars who
supply the info for Egyptologists who then ignore the Bible.
Further, it is a serious error against the true God Jehovah
and any of his word for christian Africanus to say that Mena or
the pyramid existed before the flood. So be wary of which
lying christian you accept and go for the truth from a
true christian.
>Be wary of assuming important dates, end of the world 
>scenarios etc.. for Christianity. I find that EVERY such
>prophecy has this urgent element that these things are going
>to happen a) just about now, b) within your lifetime. And of
>course c) they are all wrong.
>The gospel is not about fear.
>Jesus himself did not know when the end would come.
>George :)
Like Satan who accused God of threatening fear of the fruit
to Adam and Eve, you demons against God's warning that the end
is here this year now tell lie again claiming this warning is a
threat of fear rather than a loving urge to get to safety.
You deserve death, you will get death, and you will bring death,
and catastrophicly increase CASUALTIES (the most stupid word
you asses have created for the word death).
>Eliyehowah wrote:
>> > called "the 2nd Intermedeiate period (c.1750 BC),
>> I will venture to say
>> that neither Africanus nor Eusebius nor Manetho nor Josephus
>> says anything about 1st intermediate periods
>> and  2nd intermediate periods or 3rd.
>> These are created because scholars cant agree or align.
>> They keep saying that the Bible says nothing, and yet they themselves
>> are creating intermediate periods when the figures of
>> Africanus, Eusebius, Manetho, and Josephus are overwhelmingly
>> more than enough so as to permit absolutely NO GAPS at all.
>> There is no room for intermediate periods, and are merely names
>> to appease the bickering disputing scholars.
>>
>> Another reason for intermediate blanks in history is due to
>> the first of this 20th century's scholars insisting Egypt went
>> back to 5500 BC. Get this !  These scholars who make the Bible
>> useless had the gaul to use Africanus who claimed Adam was Mena
>> created in 5500 BC. Thus they chose this Mena theory for Egypt's
>> epoch. Of course, they are going to have the same gaps and problems
>> christian Africanus had to face should papyrus ever be uncovered
>> to prove his 5500 BC false. So what do they do now, blame
>> a christian for leading them that way !
************
A voice crying out and going unheard,
http://www.execpc.com/~elijah/myPhoto.gif
(40 years Oct 7) Nehemiah's (9:1) 50th JUBILEE of Tishri 24 
elijah@wi.net
Discover the world's true chronology thru the Bible at
          http://www.execpc.com/~elijah
God's 1000 years has begun Sep 14 of 1996.
http://www.execpc.com/~elijah/Ezra1991CE.gif

> 
> Saida says:
> 
> >Some people today think the Egyptians used the wheel as a surveying tool
> >when building the pyramids, measuring by the revolutions.
Steve Whittet wrote:
> 
> Hi Saida,
> 
> This is well on its way to becoming one of those myths which pervade
> academia and can be very hard to get rid of. I would ask those people:
> 
> 1.) If this was the way the Egyptians measured, against the evidence
> of their rulers and knotted cords, why don't all the monuments in
> Egypt have the Pi relationship?
> 
> 2.) Why would they invent this method of measuring for the
> Great Pyramid and then discard it and never use it again?
> 
> 3.) How would they deal with the coursing where the length of the
> rows does not lay out evenly with a wheel as the pyramid rises up?
> 
> 4.) How would they get their wheel to also incorporate the value Phi
> in the proportion of the apothem to the run?
> 
> 5.) How would they get their wheel to determine the length of the
> individual stones which were cut to size in a quarry off site?
> 
> 6.) Assuming your answer to number 5 is "make a template" and
> keeping in mind that the Egyptians made their calculations
> in unit fractions how would you convert the proportions of the
> wheel to something the workmen could use as a template to check
> their accuracy on a stone by stone basis?
> 
> 7.) How would you deal with the 3' inset in the sides and
> how does it affect your layout?
> 
> Lets put this issue to rest. My hope is that you would agree
> the Egyptians tended to reject "immediately obvious" solutions
> in favor of the right answer, as a general rule...
> 
> steve
I would have no idea and certainly have no opinion about any of it.  
When I said "some people" I meant the Japanese scientists who presented 
this theory in a documentary they made about the Great Pyramid.  
However, if I do recall correctly, they did say that Pi was 
"automatically" (this is my word) present in the Egyptians' calculations 
here.  I wish I could remember more details, but I don't.

Saida wrote:
> >Let's stick to the Hyksos for now.  I do assume they were numerous for
> >several reasons:  Josephus tells us that the Hyksos came and took over
> >Egypt without a struggle.  But, actually, scholars feel that it was not
> >a case of a sudden invasion but a gradual influx of peoples, mostly
> >Semitic-speaking for CENTURIES (Sir Alan Gardiner, "Egypt of the
> >Pharaohs" pgs 155-170) the actual fact of their numerous presence
> >enabling them to take control.  The Hyksos are not necessarily ONE
> >people.  It seems to me that the ancient Egyptians were no less
> >chauvanistic than yourself and the idea of foreign rule was terribly
> >repugnant to them.  Yet the fact remains they were unable to do anything
> >about it for over 100 years of Hyksos pharaohs!  Think of all these
> >foreigners multiplying from the Delta to Memphis in the space of a
> >century and you may begin to grasp the ridiculousness of asserting that
> >there were not a great many and did not have much impact on the
> >population of Egypt.
> 
> Studies conducted by el Batrawi in the 40s and Brace these days show that
> the Egyptians of pre-Dynastic times were not significantly different than
> the modern Egyptians. This is why I know that they were not numerous. If
> they had been, there would be a difference (even a slight one). This
> logic can be appplied to all invaders including the Arabs. Science backs
> my opinion.
I am not familiar with these studies.  Perhaps you can quote us 
something from these sources.  It would be interesting to see what they 
have to say.  Maybe you could, also, dig up a geneticist who explains 
what happened to all those foreign genes over the centuries.  Did they 
just disappear?  You make the Egyptians sound like quite a namby-pamby 
lot.  A "handful" of people always seemed able to conquer them!  A "few" 
Arabs, according to you, took over Egypt and changed the religion and 
language forever.  How?
(snip)
Hab:
> >>
> >> There is much diversity within the Egyptian population (even though there
> >> seems to be a great similarity in nasal shape) and they are all EGYPTIAN.
> >
> >What is this shape?
> 
> Prominent nasal root and fleshy tip.
Saida:
> 
> >  Yes, of course, they are all Egyptian.  Nobody
> >challenged this.  I thought we were talking about ancient times and
> >upheavals that may have affected the racial balance of the Egyptian
> >population forever.  For some reason, you do not seem to want to admit
> >this was possible.
> 
> Because science does not agree with this reasoning and neither do I. An
> Egyptians of 4000 BC is similar to one of 1996 AD.
> 
> >> Long live Egypt and the Egyptains.
> >>
> >> The Hab
> >
> >You sound like the Pharaoh Ahmose!
> 
> More like the Pharaoh Nasser of the New Statedom;).
> 
> The Hab
Ahhh!  Yes.  I remember now.  Egypt for the Egyptians!  Suddenly a good 
many people who felt themselves to be one-hundred-per cent Egyptian 
weren't Egyptian anymore.  They had to leave.  So much for diversity!  
By the way, why did your family leave Egypt?

This may seem trivial amidst all the flames that are going on here, but I just 
received the announcement that the long awaited 5 volume Cambridge 
Encyclopedia of Archaeology has just been published.  It is expensive, 
alas, and it is on old fashioned paper, not on line, but I hope that it will 
be available in libraries and that people may consult if from time to time 
before going on about gods being planets, pots being people, and all that.