Subject: Re: New Study Supports Man Hunting Mammoth to Extinction
From: lilnbige@lc.gulfnet.com (Eric G. Taylor)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 22:28:11 -0500
In article <57uur6$2d9@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, jimamy@primenet.com wrote:
>
While this may be possible, I have a hard time envisioning an
> elephant grazing on steppe in front of a continental ice sheet.
True. I know of no cold weather elephants!
>
> I also have a hard time seeing a WOOLY mammoth on our hundred + degree
summer
> days in North America.
Also true.
> M. columbi is a different story. The "Artic
> Circle" was further south in those days. Was Florida "subtropical" when
> ice sheets covered Wisconsin and south?
The faunal lists from Plio-pleistocene deposits in florida include many
tropical and subtropical animals during almost the entire time mammoths
were present (c. 2 MYBP.) Not much doubt as the climate here during that
time, I am afraid. Major difference might have been the dryer nature of
the current peninsula as the coast line was quite a bit further out to sea
during glacial periods!
> Could the advance of water
> (making large parts of Florida a swamp) have broken up the M. columbia
> groups into smaller, more easily huntable groups?
Doubt it. There was always lots of water and mammoths were probably
largely open savanna dwellers.
>Have we found M. columbi fossils under the sea around Florida? i.e. was
there a larger range before the rise in the sea level?
There was a larger range, but probably because there was more land!
Mammoth fossils have been found out to sea off both coasts. Lots off
Venice Beach, for example.
> Honest questions (I'm not trolling).
And good ones too!
Eric Taylor
Eric (BigE)
Subject: The True Meaning of Christmas
From: Dominic Green
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 00:23:02 +0000
In this season of goodwill to all persons, I feel it is time to heed the
True Meaning of Christmas. What began as a pagan Bacchanal orgy of
drink, feasting and licentiousness has today been perverted by the
values of our modern society to the extent that we are expected both to
attend Church, and to give money to small children without so much as
having our chimneys swept by the little ruffians.
It has long been known that the Guiding Star of Bethlehem was in fact
the Retro-Rocket of Jesus's Antigravity-Powered Space Dreadnought as it
hovered menacingly over Bethlehem. However, what is less well known is
that the original space vessel which crashed in Bethlehem in six B.C.
still lies in the vaults of the Vatican, where Popish engineers puzzle
to this day over its inexplicable Heretic-fired power system, and study
the original bas-reliefs of the Autopsy conducted by Roman Military
Surgeons on the Angel Gabriel. Critics of these bas-reliefs point to
the fact that they are executed in Bakelite, a material not commonly
associated with the Ancient Hebrews. However, Thor Heyerdahl has sailed
Bakelite Rafts for many miles up and down the Dead Sea without going
Mad, and the same may be presumed of the Ancient Hebrews. Why did the
Pharisees hide the wondrous craft upon its discovery? Evidently the
Jews, an astute race, had realized in advance that they were Heretics,
and that they would be used as Fuel.
I now propose that the vessel be removed from the Vatican and presented
to Strategic Air Command at Omaha for the Good of All Mankind.
Furthermore, since there are now more Moslems in the world than
Catholics, Catholics should now provide the Onboard Reaction Mass,
particularly at this important Christian festival when they are soaked
in Brandy and at their most Combustible.
Yours
Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.) Oxon.
(Oklahoma)
Subject: Re: marianna- Hurrian or IE?
From: vidynath@math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao)
Date: 10 Dec 1996 00:05:00 GMT
In article <58c02b$rcn@halley.pi.net>,
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
>It is a myth, as you said previously. A myth like the myth of the
>Indo-Aryans charioteers of India themselves. Or the Kurgan charioteers
>of Europe.
A similar myth endures among Indologists, who generally believe
that Indo-Iranians invented the chariot and went forth conquering
everything in their way. All writings on the `Aryan Invasion into
India' are permeated with this. Yet, these writings are cited as
standard authority by everybody.
Here are two quotes from a recent article by a professor of Sanskrit
at Harvard:
The terminology of horse care and horse racing as taught by
the Mitanni Kikuuli to the Hittites was Indo-Aryan as well ...
How do we know the Hittites had to be taught these things? Hittite
kings may simply have been collecting books for their library.
In both scenarios [sc: Kassites and Mitannis in the Near East
and Indo-Aryans in India] the immigrant group was politically
dominant because of its new military technology and tactics,
especially the horse-drawn chariot which was quickly taken over
by all major states in Egypt, Mesopotamia and China (Mair 1990:44)
although without taking over the language of the chariot drivers.
The first appearance of thundering chariots must have stricken
the local population with a terror similar to that experienced by
the Aztecs and Incas upon the arrival of the iron-clad,
horse-riding Spaniards.
[Both quotations from `Early Indian history: Lignuistic and textual
parameters' by M. Witzel in ``Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia'',
p.109 and p.114].
OK, so Witzel has not read Littauer and Crouwell, and Piggot on
wheeled transport, so does not know the objections to the belief
underlying his remarks. Surely those who list these two in their
references would be immune. Ha!
Let us turn to Asko Parpopa's `Deciphering the Indus Script', p.151 (col 2):
The horse-chariots buried with their owners in the Sintasha Cemetry
had two wheels with ten spokes each (fig 8.20). In the ancient
Near East, most chariots continued to have only four spokes
until about 1400 BC. Thus the early Andronovo of the northern steppes
was more advanced and had the potential to introduce new chariot
technology into the ancient Near East, where the Mitanni Aryans
appear as masters in chariotry by the sixteenth century BC
(sect 8.5). In fact, one Syrian seal dated between 1750 and 1600 BC
shows a war-chariot with two eight-spoked wheels.
Turning to Littauer and Crouwell, we learn that there are Syrian seals
showing six, eight, and in one case, nine spokes. That the presumably
less advanced Egyptian chariots with four or six wheels had integral
naves which speak of sophisticated construction.
Indeed, when Parpola wants to argue that `Aryans' had invaded and
set up shop some place, he simply says that evidence of horses,
trumpets and/or chariots has been found. This `proves' that Aryans
had invaded and conquered that area.
--
Vidhyanath Rao It is the man, not the method, that solves
nathrao+@osu.edu the problem. - Henri Poincare
(614)-366-9341 [as paraphrased by E. T. Bell]
Subject: Re: "Out of India"
From: bdiebold@pantheon.yale.edu (Benjamin H. Diebold)
Date: 10 Dec 1996 05:12:16 GMT
Piotr Michalowski (piotrm@umich.edu) wrote:
: In article seagoat@primenet.com (John A. Halloran) writes:
: >One of the earliest indications of Neolithic economic activity are the clay
: >tokens for counting goods. These are found at 8,000 B.C. C-14 in widely
: >separated sites, at Tell Mureybet, level III, in Syria and at Ganj Dareh,
: >level E, in Iran. 8,000 B.C C-14 is at least 9,000 B.C. on the calibrated
: >scale.
I'm responding to this via Piotr's message because it hasn't propagated to
my site yet.
I don't believe it is accurate, even given flux in neolithic chronologies,
to place Ganj Dareh, level E, at 9000 BC calibrated. 7500 BC is much more
like it, and would fit much more closely in with artifact and
architectural sequences, especially the presence of pottery.
Hole (1987: 49), who excavated many of these Zagros neolithic sites
(though not Ganj Dareh), places level E of Ganj Dareh in the middle of the
eighth millennium.
What is your source for the radiocarbon date? Are you sure it wasn't
presented to you in an already calibrated form?
Ben
P.S. Thank you, Piotr, for your comments on S-B and writing. Incisive and
interesting, as ever.
Subject: Re: The True Meaning of Christmas
From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(E Douglas Kihn)
Date: 10 Dec 1996 03:21:59 GMT
In Dominic Green
writes:
>
>
>In this season of goodwill to all persons, I feel it is time to heed
the
>True Meaning of Christmas. What began as a pagan Bacchanal orgy of
>drink, feasting and licentiousness has today been perverted by the
>values of our modern society to the extent that we are expected both
to
>attend Church, and to give money to small children without so much as
>having our chimneys swept by the little ruffians.
>
>It has long been known that the Guiding Star of Bethlehem was in fact
>the Retro-Rocket of Jesus's Antigravity-Powered Space Dreadnought as
it
>hovered menacingly over Bethlehem. However, what is less well known
is
>that the original space vessel which crashed in Bethlehem in six B.C.
>still lies in the vaults of the Vatican, where Popish engineers puzzle
>to this day over its inexplicable Heretic-fired power system, and
study
>the original bas-reliefs of the Autopsy conducted by Roman Military
>Surgeons on the Angel Gabriel. Critics of these bas-reliefs point to
>the fact that they are executed in Bakelite, a material not commonly
>associated with the Ancient Hebrews. However, Thor Heyerdahl has
sailed
>Bakelite Rafts for many miles up and down the Dead Sea without going
>Mad, and the same may be presumed of the Ancient Hebrews. Why did the
>Pharisees hide the wondrous craft upon its discovery? Evidently the
>Jews, an astute race, had realized in advance that they were Heretics,
>and that they would be used as Fuel.
>
>I now propose that the vessel be removed from the Vatican and
presented
>to Strategic Air Command at Omaha for the Good of All Mankind.
>Furthermore, since there are now more Moslems in the world than
>Catholics, Catholics should now provide the Onboard Reaction Mass,
>particularly at this important Christian festival when they are soaked
>in Brandy and at their most Combustible.
>
>
>Yours
>
>Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A. (Dom. Sci.)
Oxon.
>(Oklahoma)
>
Reverend Colonel,
Thank you for that holiday cheer! But to tell you the truth,
you're taking quite a chance with your immortal soul. I don't think
that God (in heavy syrup) wil take too kindly to heavy sarcasm about
His angels and prophets. But I at least appreciate your imagination!
Dr. Doug
Subject: Re: "Out of India"
From: piotrm@umich.edu (Piotr Michalowski)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 22:10:28
In article seagoat@primenet.com (John A. Halloran) writes:
>One of the earliest indications of Neolithic economic activity are the clay
>tokens for counting goods. These are found at 8,000 B.C. C-14 in widely
>separated sites, at Tell Mureybet, level III, in Syria and at Ganj Dareh,
>level E, in Iran. 8,000 B.C C-14 is at least 9,000 B.C. on the calibrated
>scale.
>I have these facts at my fingertips because I just added a page devoted to the
>tokens to my web site:
>http://www.primenet.com/~seagoat/sumerian/
>The tokens are found over distances as widely separated as Khartoum in the
>Sudan and at the pre-Harrapan site of Mehrgahr in Pakistan.
There are actually more questions concerning the so-called tokens than there
are answers. It is not at all certain that all the objects that have been
classified by that name belong to the same class of artifact, nor that all, if
any of them (in certain periods at least) are "counters." Some could be game
pieces, parts of toys, etc. The simplistic evolutionary theory that Denise
Schmandt-Besserat has repeatedly written about, which is nothing but a rather
simple-minded elaboration of something observed by Pierre Amiet years ago, on
these tokens and their role in the "development" of writing, has been widely
criticized by those who actually know something about writing and archaeology.
The only positive reviews of her book on the subject have come from people who
do not realize how bad her data collection was and how many errors are in the
book. Paul Zimansky in the Journal of Archeological Science, J. Frieberg in
Bibliotheca Orientalis, and even this writer in American Anthropologist have
all been very critical of this, as was, somewhat earlier, Steve Lieberman in
the American Journal of Archaeology. Caveat emptor!
Subject: Re: New Study Supports Man Hunting Mammoth to Extinction
From: lilnbige@lc.gulfnet.com (Eric G. Taylor)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 22:41:05 -0500
In article <57uur6$2d9@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, jimamy@primenet.com wrote:
>
While this may be possible, I have a hard time envisioning an
> elephant grazing on steppe in front of a continental ice sheet.
True. I know of no cold weather elephants!
>
> I also have a hard time seeing a WOOLY mammoth on our hundred + degree
summer
> days in North America.
Also true.
> M. columbi is a different story. The "Artic
> Circle" was further south in those days. Was Florida "subtropical" when
> ice sheets covered Wisconsin and south?
The faunal lists from Plio-pleistocene deposits in florida include many
tropical and subtropical animals during almost the entire time mammoths
were present (c. 2 MYBP.) Not much doubt as the climate here during that
time, I am afraid. Major difference might have been the dryer nature of
the current peninsula as the coast line was quite a bit further out to sea
during glacial periods!
> Could the advance of water
> (making large parts of Florida a swamp) have broken up the M. columbia
> groups into smaller, more easily huntable groups?
Doubt it. There was always lots of water and mammoths were probably
largely open savanna dwellers.
>Have we found M. columbi fossils under the sea around Florida? i.e. was
there a larger range before the rise in the sea level?
There was a larger range, but probably because there was more land!
Mammoth fossils have been found out to sea off both coasts. Lots off
Venice Beach, for example.
> Honest questions (I'm not trolling).
And good ones too!
Eric Taylor
Eric (BigE)
