Subject: Re: Carbon Dating (Shroud of Turin)
From: August Matthusen
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:51:44 -0800
Keith littlejo@comm.net wrote:
>
> In another post, Dr. August Matthusen reported on some rather
> bogus science by a creationist, Dr. D.A. Kouznetsov, known
> for other rather strange going-ons, including alleged fictional
> citations and Jull et al. (1996) who comments on the many
> problems of his work.
Keith,
Thanks for the kind words but I don't have a PhD, just an
M.S in geological sciences. Given all the recent posts
on doctorates and what constitutes an "ologist" I wouldn't
want to give any false impressions. FWIW I've known some
damn fine "ologists" in several fields who had a
bachelors degree.
> For this stuff see Jull et al. (1996) and:
> http://earth.ics.uci.edu:8080/faqs/kouznetsov.html
>
> However, what you refer to is a paper presented by H. E. Gove
> at the University of Rochester and Dr. Leoncio Garza-Valdes,
> a pediatrician and self-proclaimed "archaeologist." at the 7th
> International AMS Conference in Tucson, Arizona which was
> published as an abstract in the Volume 38, #1 of RADIOCARBON.
> They claim that a "bioplastic coating" on the linen skewed the
> shroud dating by introducing modern carbon into the dated
> shroud. Judging from the lack of any further discussion,
> the AMS community apparently failed to be convinced that
> the microbial contamination actually skewed the dates.
>
> The problem with their claim is that people who do radiocarbon
> dating are well aware that fungi and bacteria growing on cloth,
> wood, or any other organic material can skew dates by
> introducing modern carbon. As a result, samples are rigorously
> pretreated to remove such material. Anybody who takes the
> time to read the original report, Damon et al. (1989), finds that
> such pretreatments were performed and such contaminants, if
> present, were removed prior to dating. I suspect that the paper
> by Gove and Garza-Valdes is nothing more then an additional
> smoke screen to obscure and deny data that contradicts their
> personal religious beliefs.
The whole contamination premise is even more amazing when
you consider the amount of contamination that would be required.
*If* the cloth were 2000 years old and the contamination started
after the fire the physics of radiocarbon decay require that
the contaminant supply twice as much C-14 as is in the cloth
for the cloth and contaminant to date to c. 400 BP (and this is
assuming that the contaminant is not removed by pretreatment).
If the contaminant was being constantly added to a 2000 year old
cloth then the contaminant would have to supply *much* more C-14
(I've seen estimates of up to six times) to achieve a date of
c. 400 BP.
> References:
>
> Damon, P. E., D. J. Donahue, B. H. Gore, and many others.
> (1989) Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin. Nature. vol
> 337, pp. 611-615.
>
> Jull, A.J.T, D. J. Donahue, and P. E. Damon (1996)
> "Factors Affecting the Apparent Radiocarbon Age of Textiles: A
> Comment on 'Effects of Fires and Biofractionation of Carbon
> Isotopes on Results of Radiocarbon Dating of Old Textiles: The
> Shroud of Turin,' by D.A. Kouznetsov et al.," _Journal of
> Archaeological Science_, JAN 01 1996, v 23, n 1,
> pp. 157-160.
Kind regards,
August Matthusen
Subject: Re: Egyptian flame war & Pygmies
From: August Matthusen
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 11:15:50 -0800
Doug Kihn wrote:
>
> In <32c2261c.110789931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> fmurray@pobox,com
> (frank murray) writes:
> >
> >On 20 Dec 1996 20:02:18 GMT, vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
> >
> >>Never have I come across any ancient writings that put forward
> >>the notion that skin color had anything to do with intellegence
> level.
> >
> >hmmm...before this could mean anything beyond lips flapping in the
> >wind of voice, i'd need some mention of which ancient texts you've
> >examined that deal with both the concept of "intelligence level" and
> >the possibility that it "had anything to do with" anything at
> >all...might you cite a few such texts??...
> >
> >frank
> >
> Most Roman Republican sources (Livy, Cicero, Caesar, Plautius, Sallust,
> etc.), Greek sources, Chinese sources, it's pointless to rattle off all
> of the sources I've read in my life. The question is, can you name ONE
> SOURCE before the advent of capitalism that talks about race/skin color
> being a determinant of intelligence?
>
> All I'm after is the truth. I really want to know if there is a source
> like that? Maybe I missed something.
I don't know about "determinant of intelligence" but there is
the supposed biblical injunction (in Genesis 9) which indicates
that the children of Ham and Canaan shall be servants of the
other descendents of Moses. Quite a bit of racism has been based
on these passages and it appears to pre-date capitalism as we know it.
Regards,
August Matthusen
Subject: Re: Egyptian flame war & Pygmies
From: The Hab
Date: 21 Dec 1996 20:16:45 GMT
August Matthusen wrote:
>Doug Kihn wrote:
>>
>> In <32c2261c.110789931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> fmurray@pobox,com
>> (frank murray) writes:
>> >
>> >On 20 Dec 1996 20:02:18 GMT, vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
>> >
>> >>Never have I come across any ancient writings that put forward
>> >>the notion that skin color had anything to do with intellegence
>> level.
>> >
>> >hmmm...before this could mean anything beyond lips flapping in the
>> >wind of voice, i'd need some mention of which ancient texts you've
>> >examined that deal with both the concept of "intelligence level" and
>> >the possibility that it "had anything to do with" anything at
>> >all...might you cite a few such texts??...
>> >
>> >frank
>> >
>> Most Roman Republican sources (Livy, Cicero, Caesar, Plautius, Sallust,
>> etc.), Greek sources, Chinese sources, it's pointless to rattle off all
>> of the sources I've read in my life. The question is, can you name ONE
>> SOURCE before the advent of capitalism that talks about race/skin color
>> being a determinant of intelligence?
>>
>> All I'm after is the truth. I really want to know if there is a source
>> like that? Maybe I missed something.
>
>I don't know about "determinant of intelligence" but there is
>the supposed biblical injunction (in Genesis 9) which indicates
>that the children of Ham and Canaan shall be servants of the
>other descendents of Moses. Quite a bit of racism has been based
>on these passages and it appears to pre-date capitalism as we know it.
It was Canaan who was cursed not all of Ham's children.
The Hab
Subject: Ed Conrad Deconstructed
From: jackechs@erols.com (Words from the Monastery)
Date: 21 Dec 1996 19:38:15 GMT
Dearest and Most Revered Reverend Colonel Ignatius Churchward Von Berlitz M.A.
(Dom. Sci.) Oxon. (Oklahoma);
To my shock and somewhat dismay, I am saddened to report that there is a
pretendor to your satirestic academic throne ... alas the poor humorless sod
(I've heard bastard murmored in the streets of the Internet, however, I have
no personal knowledge of his lienage so I will leave it as a side bar rumor
at best) has completely lost his way down the lane whilest tripping through the
tulips and stepping on Miss Daisy (she was picnicing after a rather long and
tedious country drive upon dry Roman roads of yore). He, it appears, has gone
as far as to believe his statements once made in jest as now being actual
proofs of the pudding that we all realize in the light of the your own chosen
field of omnisciencient satirestic archaeological fish and field studies to be
less than pudding, but more than jello ... either way needless to say Dr. Bill
Cosby wouldn't speak for him either. But is there something that you can
recommend? Some remedy ... or antiquated cure of some archaic and formally lost
in the out houses of yesteryear to cure this poor lost soul before it is much
too late? Or is it too late? Your learned analysis would be highly appreciated
... no doubt by the academic world and others of lesser stature whose lives are
guided and lit by your ruminations of ancient wisdom not so old as yesterday,
but not as new as today.
your most loyal and humble servant,
Father Jack Anthony Echs
Order of the Ever Blooming Lily
Subject: Russian Academy of Natural History
From: presid@nature.saratov.su
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:31:02 -0600
RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF NATURAL HISTORY
The Academy of Natural History is enrolled of 27 julies 1995 in
Department of Russian justice
Organizational-legal form - non-profit organization.
Main mission - assistance the realization of The doctrine of the
development of Russian
science.
Structural subdivisions Academy be 16 sections (Biological sciences,
Veterinarian sciences, Geographical sciences, Geological and
mineralogical sciences, Medical sciences, Pedagogical sciences,
Psychological sciences, Regionovedenie, Sanitary and epidemiologic
supervision, Agricultural sciences, Technical sciences, Pharmaceutical
sciences, Physical-mathematical sciences, Chemical sciences, Economic
sciences).
In Academy composition enter 19 academicians, about 300
members-correspondents and more 1500 members and collective members from
74 Russia cities and few
countries.
Are registered about 30 regional (Republican) offices.
There is printed organ - "Herald Academy of Natural History"
ACADEMY OF NATURAL HISTORY INVITES NON-PROFIT, STATE, COMMERCIAL
ORGANISATIONS AND ALL TO
COLLABORATION
__________________________________________________________________
RUSSIA, MOSCOW, 105037, BOX 47, Fax: (095)-975-09-33)
E-mail: presid@nature. saratov. su
Natalia Stukova
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Subject: Re: Egyptian flame war & Pygmies
From: August Matthusen
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 12:41:55 -0800
The Hab wrote:
>
> August Matthusen wrote:
> >Doug Kihn wrote:
> >>
> >> In <32c2261c.110789931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> fmurray@pobox,com
> >> (frank murray) writes:
> >> >
> >> >On 20 Dec 1996 20:02:18 GMT, vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Never have I come across any ancient writings that put forward
> >> >>the notion that skin color had anything to do with intellegence
> >> level.
> >> >
> >> >hmmm...before this could mean anything beyond lips flapping in the
> >> >wind of voice, i'd need some mention of which ancient texts you've
> >> >examined that deal with both the concept of "intelligence level" and
> >> >the possibility that it "had anything to do with" anything at
> >> >all...might you cite a few such texts??...
> >> >
> >> >frank
> >> >
> >> Most Roman Republican sources (Livy, Cicero, Caesar, Plautius, Sallust,
> >> etc.), Greek sources, Chinese sources, it's pointless to rattle off all
> >> of the sources I've read in my life. The question is, can you name ONE
> >> SOURCE before the advent of capitalism that talks about race/skin color
> >> being a determinant of intelligence?
> >>
> >> All I'm after is the truth. I really want to know if there is a source
> >> like that? Maybe I missed something.
> >
> >I don't know about "determinant of intelligence" but there is
> >the supposed biblical injunction (in Genesis 9) which indicates
> >that the children of Ham and Canaan shall be servants of the
> >other descendents of Moses. Quite a bit of racism has been based
> >on these passages and it appears to pre-date capitalism as we know it.
>
> It was Canaan who was cursed not all of Ham's children.
Right you are, Hab, my mistake. Of course, Ham didn't get
the blessings that Japheth and Shem got. I suppose it has
always puzzled me why Canaan got cursed as he doesn't
appear to have any prior involvement in the story as
written in the bible.
Regards,
August Matthusen
Subject: Re: I cannot believe that there is a true Jew (in every sense) in today's world
From: dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk (Douglas Weller)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:47:02 GMT
On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 22:36:50 GMT, hillj@ozemail.com.au (Jeff Hill) wrote:
> I cannot believe that there is a true Jew (in every sense) in
>today's world.
Another sick Christian emoting -- (I just ran into one saying how pleased he
was that Sagan was screaming in Hell).
[SNIP]
> In short, before some deceitful rabbi killfiles me, I lament
>that this newsgroup even EXISTS - you gullible people are ripe for the
>slaughter again!
>
Weird too, why does he lament sci.archaeology's existence?
Stupidities like this are the price of free speech. There are sick people all
over the place, and some of them are bound to find their way here.
--
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org
Requests To: arch-moderators@ucl.ac.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Subject: Circumventing the Kill File (Was SCORE Etc.)
From: Lioness
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:59:44 -0600
Saida wrote:
> He only pops in here
> to flame people, which is his main delight in life, judging from his
> posts. Usually, he stays in soc.culture.Egyptian, where he keeps busy
> telling his fellow Egyptians to go f*** their mothers.
You know, you dwell on the sexuality of other people so much....is there
something to this? As for flaming, I believe you have made it your
business to flame anyone and everyone in this room who doesn't bend over
and kiss your holier-than-thou arse? I know for a fact that you inquire
quite freely about the mating habits of others, is there a voyuristic
quality to your inquisitiveness, or do you merely like to be an online
gossip with an Egyptological bent?
>I daresay this "boy", the Hab, (I cannot call him a
> man) is only popular with people very much like himself.
Does it make you more of a woman, indeed more of a human being to point
out the flaws in everyone else? Cast no stones, oh thou who dwelest in
the tower of glass.
> Thus the saga of the bully Ihab Khalil. He loves to dish it out, but he> takes it with extreme bad grace.
Pot calling the kettle black once again. Oh Im sorry...If I say that am
I now a racist?
Still, as sure as Adam bit the apple,
> we can expect the likes of Katherine, Xina, or Marc Line not to waste
> any opportunity to speak up for their soulmate (or to trash me).
I don't think you need any assistance. The point of this post is to let
you know that "kill files" can be circumvented extremely easily. You
know all about this, don't you Marriane? Yes you do. What you don't
know is that some of us have several email accounts and you will be
spending a great deal of time trying to tune us out. You can run,
Saida, but you cannot hide....especially not from the garbage you
yourself spew. Sooner or later, as I have said to you , you have to
clean up your own mess or risk having to wallow in your own defecation.
None
> of them seems to have the intelligence to realize how much the bad odor of each one is rubbing off and clinging to the other.
Is this to imply that your own shit doth not stink? Think again. From
where this reader sits, you are somewhat less than the scent of jasmine
yourself.
>
> As for me "reproducing myself", that caveat is too late. Ihab Khalil is 24. I am twice that.
I would have thought a puckered up embittered person such as yourself
would be at least in her 60's. But as it is I can see that your dealing
with the "change of life" (menapause) is not agreeing with you at all.
There are some really great herbs you can take to help you with that. I
feel that since I once regarded you with some respect, the least I could
do is send you the herbal formula for such a problem. You need to take
a good deal of licorice root, some chammomile tea about six times a day,
and of course good sex wouldnt hurt, even though I know when going
through such a thing you feel more like leveling a shotgun at your
partner than 'riding the hobby horse.' It is alright....in time this
too will pass, and your normal and more even personality will emerge.
I have four lovely, intelligent daughters and an
> adorable grandson.
Thats wonderful! Congratulations! I do hope however that if you share
your love of ancient Egypt with any of them that you offer up something
other than Budge for their education on the subject.
In this position, I feel sorry for Ihab's parents.
> I hope they are not spending their life's savings trying to educate this> emotionally disturbed young person.
No worse than your children having to watch you implode from your own
poison.
It is abundantly obvious he is
> already well on his way to becoming a total waste of time.
You know...so are you. COme to think of it, Saida, from now on I won't
react to any more that you say. In this post, to which I am
responding, I have gotten a clear picture that you have no intention of
apologizing
to anyone here. Certainly not to me, who never until this week had one
negative thing to say about you. If you had asked me a week ago how I
thought about you, I would have not said one bad thing about you. I
still think you can salvage what is left of your reputation, but the
ball is now on your side of the net. I have no intention of wasting my
words, or my time on you either.
Obsess at will.....we all know what is *really* at the heart of the
matter....don't we, Saida?
Xina
"As for the fool who will not listen, there is no one who can
do anything for him. He regards knowledge as ignorance and what
is beneficial as something harmful; he does everything hateful, so
that men are angry with him every day. He lives on that whereby
men die, and to distort speech is his food. His character in this
respect is in the knowledge of the wise ones, dying alive every
day; men pass over his deeds because of the multitude of troubles
on him every day....control your mouth; so will your counsel be
heard among the wise". -From "The Maxims of Ptah-hotep"
BTW.....if you haven't read this Saida, and I assume you have, you might
want to contemplate it for just a while.
Subject: Re: Words and meanings - a basic primer.
From: Saida
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:30:48 -0600
Marc Line, now calling himself "Maresh" (probably his "familiar" as he
seems to do quite a lot of posting in newsgroups with names like
"alt.wicca")wrote:
>
> Maresh wrote:
> >
> > Again, my apologies for this duplication. It has been necessary in this > case to give Saida a fair chance to substantiate her allegations.
> I do > not intend to repeat this challenge to Saida. As far as I am
> concerned, > if she cannot present the evidence which is so conspicuous > by its > absence, she will be forever branded a hysterical
liar and > render > herself liable for prosecution under the provisions
of > jurisprudence > which cater to the offence that is defamation of
> character. I assure > you all that this will not happen again and crave > your considerable > indulgence on this occasion. Thank you.
Saida:
> You phoney asshole!
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Dec 1996, at 17:20:25, Saida cajoled electrons into this
How long are you going to keep using this "cajoled electrons"? It has
worn pretty thin.
> Marc Line: (before he became "Maresh")
> > Your dictionary seems to be falling down rather a lot lately Saida.
> > That perhaps explains why you have still failed to grasp that a person > > who studies Egyptian culture and teaches classes
professionally in the > > subject, is allowed to call themselves an
Egyptologist.
Is that the new rule in the UK? Not in the states!
> > >Email addresses of Egyptologists (Nigel Strudwick's Egypt Pages from
> > >Cambridge University) 4 December 1996
> > >
> > >This file contains ethereal addresses of Egyptologists (graduate
> > >students and professionals) known to us, in a format that can be
> > >sorted by last name. We do not know all the people personally, and some > > >may not really be Egyptologists. (many names snipped)
> >
> > many more snipped
> >
> > >Griffis (Greenberg), Katherine; Univ. Alabama grifcon@usa.pipeline.com
> >
> > Sorry but am I missing something? Where is the mention of a PhD?
> Saida:
> Listen, Putz, you really are missing something. Griffis is listed with > a lot of illustrious people, all with PhDs (and some, as
Strudwick has > pointed out, who are not really Egyptologist). What do
you suppose > Nigel Strudwick means by that? He means that UNLESS ONE
HAS A DEGREE IN > EGYPTOLOGY ONE HAS NO RIGHT TO LABEL ONESELF AS A
PROFESSIONAL > EGYPTOLOGIST. That applies to psychologists,
neurologists, radiologists > and pathologists! By listing herself among
persons known to have > degrees in Egyptology, Griffis is implying that
she, too, has one. > Which she does not. Now, I have an idea: Since
Griffis in her letter > to me claims that she is sufficiently
well-acquainted with Professor > Frank Yurco of the Oriental Institute
for him to reveal to her his true > feelings about me, why does she not
ask him to come into this discussion > and verify that Katherine
Griffis, in his opinion, is a qualified > Egyptologist? Then I will be
satisfied. Before then--no.
Marc Line seems to have trouble with this entire concept of someone
actually being accredited within the spectrum of the branches related to
archaeology. I wonder why. Here's how he reacted to someone else some
time ago:
-Nntp-Posting-Host: bosagate.demon.co.uk
References: <4p0ed2$11ro@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Organization: Bozeat Historical & Archaeological Society
Mime-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.archaeology
In article <4p0ed2$11ro@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, Kim Salkeld
writes
>Since I have had no responses to my requests in regards to Caribbean
>Archaelogy or The Taino, I assume that few of the readers of this
>newsgroup actually work in the archaeology field. Just can't figure how >come there isn't any actual intelligent conversation or postings
in >here.
Marc Line:
My dear, (he said as patronisingly as possible)
I am truly sorry that you have not managed to interest anyone enough to
cause them to respond to your requests.
There could, of course, be many reasons for the lack of response.
It is perhaps the case that no-one active in this group has any
knowledge of Caribbean Archaeology or the Taino.
It is also perhaps the case that your attitude as expressed in the above
abuse does not immediately endear people to you.
There are a good many "real" archaeologists in this forum, both
professional and amateur (whatever those words mean). Also, there is a
good deal of intelligent conversation. Sadly, you do not seem able,
willing or qualified to recognise it or participate.
I suspect you would be best advised to spend some time studying manners
before venturing into archaeology. Alternatively, ask your questions
and make your vaccuous statements in another forum more suited to you.
Might I suggest alt.arrogant.arseholes or alt.attitude.problem.
Thanks for your intelligent input.
Marc Line - Director of Archaeology (B.H.A.S.)
What in the devil is the "Bozeat Historical & Archaeological Society"?
And if you are a "Director of Archaeology", why are you constantly
posting in newsgroups having to do with witchcraft and satanism????
Subject: Re: SCORING THE FIGHT??
From: Saida
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 15:30:27 -0600
I will leave it to Frank or whoever else wants to "keep score" in this
stupid business (BTW not begun by me) to do so. In fact, as has been
noted, the combatants are mainly all in my kill-file, yet, if I know
anything about them, their vituperation is busy flowing like champagne
on New Years Eve. Yes, keeping score might not be easy. But here is a
little information about the "gladiators":
Katherine Griffis--Phoney "Egyptologist"--now become
uncharacteristically silent.
Ihab Khalil--Young Canadian sociopath--his words speak for themselves.
Marc Line--avowed "Director of Archaeology" of the "Bozeat
Archaeological and Historical Society" in the UK. Although Marc posts
in the archaeological newsgroups, he is just as often to be found in
such groups as "alt.pagan, demon.ip.support.ne, alt.religion.wicca and
alt.animals.dolphin"!! You can look him up in Deja News in the older
posts from the first of the year until October to find his views on any
of the topics that might be deemed appropriate in these groups. Lately,
he has probably not been there, being too busy flaming me right here.
Christina VanSpoor (Xina)--She is right there with her buddy, Marc, in
the aforementioned groups. Right now she says I am human waste or
perhaps even a pervert of some sort, but not so long ago on something
called "The Ancient Wisdom List" (ugh!) she made it publicly clear that
she wished to become my devoted "disciple". Here's Xina:
Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:57:02 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Christina VanSpoor
To:
saida@PioneerPlanet.infi.net
Saida:
>At 01:45 PM 8/29/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>-Message sent by Saida
(snip)
I posted this to the mail list, and I have to say I like seeing your
perspective. Frankly, I hope that both sides can remain balanced in
this. My feeling is that Ramses Seleem is connected with the Ammmonite
Foundation and thier High Priest (Per'a) Sekhmet Montu.
I have to say some of the information in this list has been frustrating
in that it is highly sensationalized. I belong to the House of Netjer,
run by Tamara Siuda who is an Egyptologist, but believes in practicing
the Egyptian Religion from what we KNOW through liturgical texts etc and
that we can substantiate. I think Im going to invite her to be a part
of it and see where it goes.
Would love to hear your thoughts. You seem to be one of the few with
thier heads screwed on straight.
Christina VanSpoor
and then
Xina@netins.net
"hristina Van Spoor
To:
Saida
Saida:
You wrote:
>Christina, bless her, said in Egyptian "How profoundly mysterious! (or
>wonderful)" Thanks, Christina, but not so mysterious as some things
>I've been reading lately...
My phrase was not meant to bait you. I meant it with all due respect.
In my conversations with Marc Line in the UK, I know well that you are
not to be doubted. Your latest post to the list is proof of that Anyone
who can speak and write the medum Neters in real time and with such
eloquence deserves admiration! :))
Im just starting in learning the Medu Neters, I wish I knew more. I
really want to know as much as I can, but other than intense self study,
which I have done for a fair amount of time, I have to admit you have
left me quite 'dusted' as it were. I get the general gist of what you
are saying however.
On a lighter note, if you ever want a devoted student, anxious to
please, I would be happy to apply! Where do I sign my life away!?
Ankh udja seneb em hotep!
Christina!
MY contention is that I am not really fighting anybody. I don't really
know how to deal with such people. If the inmates have been allowed to
take over the asylum, it is not my fault. On a personal note, I am a
part-time writer and full-time mother. I have no interest in demons,
witches, witchcraft, warlocks whatsoever.
"Race and colour of skin, illusions of the world are these, as all
matter. A
thing of geography and circumstance are they. All souls are of the same
Father-Mother. They who can overcome the ignorance of their culture will
embrace all humanity and creation as their kin."
- An Ancient Egyptian Proverb
Subject: NEW EGYPT WEB SITE
From: Mark Rigby
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 08:26:55 +1100
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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For a nice diverse site on Egypt visit Rigby's World of Egypt at:
http://www.powerup.com.au/~ancient/
It includes a tour of Egypt, love poetry from ancient Egypt, lots of
Egyptian antiquities, news, and some good links.
--------------38F743B2AD9
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Base: "http://www.powerup.com.au/~ancient/"
WELCOME TO RIGBY'S WORLD OF EGYPT
WELCOME TO RIGBY'S WORLD
OF EGYPT
Most people who visit Egypt fall in love with the country. The Web Pages
you will find here reflect my areas of interest - both in the country and
its past.
Take a tour of the country, find out about Egyptian antiquities, and
explore links to other Web sites.
This site will continue to develop,
so check back often!!!
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Tour Of Egypt
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Copyright © 1996 Mark T. Rigby
--------------38F743B2AD9--
Subject: Re: Evolution, `progress', and language (was Re: "Out of India")
From: vidynath@math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao)
Date: 21 Dec 1996 23:12:50 GMT
In article ,
John A. Halloran wrote:
>In article <59e6u7$l4b@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> vidynath@math.ohio-state.edu (Vidhyanath K. Rao) writes:
>
>>[For newcomers to this thread: This is about the article ``Language
>>Paedomorphoses'' by B. H. Bichakjian in ``Geneses of Language'' edited
>>by W. A. Koch, (Brockmayer, 1990). The major claim made by Bichakjian
>>is that modern languages are `better' because they are `more evolved'.
>>It should be noted that modern here really means modern West European
>>languages.]
>
>That must be another article by Bichakjian in the same book. I did not copy
>it because I didn't see it being as valuable as the article to which I was
>referring, "The Primitive Features of a Protolanguage" on pp. 228-256.
You are right. I was looking at the table of contents, and did not
realize that Bichakjian had two articles in that book. I was talking
about the `The Primitive Feutures'
>Since I don't know Tamil, can you identify these words so as to make your
>argument meaningful to an English speaker?
See my article in the sister thread.
[I deleted the bit where Halloran asked about ships and airplanes being
better than fifty years ago. I can't get it back easily. Anyway, here
is my response:
Does this apply to religion also? Is Christianity better than Judaism?
Is Islam better than Constantine's christianity? Do we even want to
touch this can of worms?]
--
Vidhyanath Rao It is the man, not the method, that solves
nathrao+@osu.edu the problem. - Henri Poincare
(614)-366-9341 [as paraphrased by E. T. Bell]
Subject: Re: more on Velikovsky
From: rejohnsn@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:37:59 -0600
On 17 Dec 1996, Bud Jamison wrote:
> PJG> What does reading Velikovsky have to do with being a scientist?
> PJG> One can add to the list of his stupidities his ignorance of
> PJG> chemistry (confusing carbohydrates with hydrocarbons) and
> PJG> of astrophysics (planetary pinball violating the law of conservation
> PJG> of energy).
>
> If you haven't READ him, how the hell would you KNOW he'd confused anything?
> Take someone else's word for it? That's NOT 'science'.
Not that reading Velikooksky would make it science.... As I read these
defenses of V., I get the impression that his defenders would have each
and every detractor begin from first principles in each and every
detraction. Such people can't ever be convinced; why bother?
Cheers,
Rebecca Lynn Johnson
Ph.D. stud., Dept. of Anthropology, U Iowa
Hatrack ratcatcher to port weapons...brickbat lingerie!!
-- Cdr. Susan Ivanova, B5
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: "AUSAR ( LORD OF THE PERFECT BLACK )"
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 14:44:12 -0800
J Shearer wrote:
>
> Phillip Assaad scribbles across the screen: > AUSAR
> >
> > I have a confession to make: You have successfuly been able to make me
> > feel stupider and stupider every single day.
**
**No Phillis, that's your own doing...
> >
Lemme get this striahgt:
**
**O.K. how do you get something striahgt? Boy are you stupid...
> >
> > You're a black homeBOY with a greek name and no last name coz it is your
> > master's name (Jackson - any relation to Jesse? .. hehehehe :)) - all
> > that and the fact that you think you're Egyptian too? And you don't
> > even know who your real father is? Nuff said.
**
**Sorry to bust the old stereotype, but I KNOW who my Heavenly Father
is, and my Earthly one too...
> >
> > I have one piece of advice for you:
**
**You need the piece of advice far more than I, monsieur.
> >
> > You wanna improve yourself and get some respect for yourself as a black
> > man? Stop buying that crack cocaine from your white drug dealer and
> > sober up and go get yourself a real education and maybe you'll know the
> > real history of US Egyptians and not the Egyptians of your imagination.
**
**If you want to help society more, go tell your people to stop bring
that shit into this country so that people wouldn't resort to such
CRIMES against Humanity. How sad...but no thanks to people that look
similar to yourself.
> >
> > Oh - and on a side note - how come you don't adopt the same theory about
> > the ancient Egyptians as they protray in hollywood (i.e. the movie
> > Stargate). I mean, the theory that we come from aliens is more valid
> > than the one that we are actually black.
**
**You Phillis, came from the movie Stargate. And I do believe you came
from Aliens...
> >
> Phillip, your racism is even more embarrassing than your ignorance
> of archaeology. Talk about "fossils"! --amazed, but not amused--Jan
**
**I'm AMUSED, definitly NOT amazed...
AUSAR (LORD OF THE PERFECT BLACK)
ausar@best.com
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: "AUSAR ( LORD OF THE PERFECT BLACK )"
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 15:02:53 -0800
Deborah Burnham bleeded:
>
> They probably think the same thing the rest of us do... you are a liar, a
> fake and a coward. You hide behind your color and don't even have the
> guts to use your real name.
**
**I NEVER hide behind my color, it is my badge of honor. You see Debbie,
that statement didn't even make since. How can one hide behind their
color? Moving on. Sure, I don't use my real name, however, EVERYONE
knows what it is. But really, WHAT the hell difference does that make? I
still have the same thoughts, I'm still my own person, none that will be
compromised with the likes of you. And you Miss, sound just as bad as
other racist by making such statements...therefore, I'll display no
respect towards you...
But let's get one thing straight. I'm no coward, I'm not hiding behind
anything, as a matter of fact, it's obvious, I've been very outspoken
here. See, I'm not hiding, I have NOTHING to hide about. Get it straight
lady...
I noticed you only answered my post in
> private.... please say "Weeeee" I could not help but notice it is what
> you fall back on when your 'brain' snaps shut.
**
**I have words for you on this stupid shit you posted but will save
yourself some heartache! You would be best off to skip my posts and move
on. Come at me with your vile tongue again, and I'll bite back.
>
African... honey if you
> have been to Africe you sure don't behave like it. Before you go using
> their identity you might want to as them what they think of you....
> yankee! -djb
**
**I could give a rat's ass how someone else thinks of me. Get it. Good.
And I got your 'yankee' right on the edge of my foot READY to stick it
in someones ass that tries my patience.
AUSAR (LORD OF THE PERFECT BLACK)
ausar@best.com
Subject: Re: Circumventing the Kill File (Was SCORE Etc.)
From: Saida
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:06:35 -0600
(Xina's regurgitation snipped):
LOL, Xina, you have got to be the biggest helium-head ever! Most
people, when they want to circumvent a kill-file don't put on a subject
title "Circumventing the Kill File"! Ha, ha, ha!
Well, now, you say I am interested in other peoples' sex lives. Whose?
You don't happen to mean yourself and Marc Line, by some chance, do
you? The two of you have given us here on the sci.arch so much detail
of your individual sexual orientation, habits, fantasies, etc. that we
need hardly inquire ourselves! In fact, I am on record in my mailbox
saying to someone that the two of you have gone too far. My God, Xina,
you're such a Drama Queen. You went on arguing for about a year with
Elijah. You can stand anything but being ignored. Look at the lengths
you're going to to get my attention. Beware, lest you become obsessed
with me, Sweetie! I'm not your type!
Em Hotep, Ditzarella!
Subject: Re: SCORING THE FIGHT??
From: Vladimir Vooss
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 16:52:42 +0000
traffic between Saida's postmaster and myself deleted.
(Aside) Since I'm in Saida's killfile, I assume I speak freely...and
parenthetically. If she bites, however, then she's a liar, forsooth!
> >(this was from Saida to Vladimir):
> > >Stay out of my mailbox, Vlad the Impaler, or I'll report you to
> > >your server as a nuisance. You are also going into my kill-file, whose > >list of kooks is growing by the day!!
So, Saida, you have found a way to read my mail. However you got a hold
of this traffic, you forgot to mention one VERY important thing. The
command to stay out of my mailbox Vlad the Impaler was YOUR POST to MY
MAILBOX. I had never ever posted to your mailbox prior to that statement
in YOUR invasion of MY mailbox. Is that clear? BTW, you didn't post the
second posting from your postmaster to me where the rules of your
service provider ARE included. Interesting reading? The calculated
snipping of the original traffic is also significant.
Who are you, Saida? Your postmaster refers to you as "she". You know
it'd be just perfect for you to emigrate to Roumania, China, hey!,
Greater Serbia would be great. Russia - now there's a place where your
computer skills would be just dandy. You've got all the attributes and
talent of a govyennaya stoukatchka. We've met many of your kind in the
forties and fifties. Now I know where you're coming from Pay back for
the Holocaust by beating us up. But this is clue enough.
Vlad the Impaler is used among Americans,usually used as a racist
epithet. As a naturalized American citizen, I've grown used to such
racism, you boring product of suburbia, most likely. You don't know that
Vlad the Impaler was indeed a hero of his time and country, and for me,
as a half-Armenian, this would be a compliment. Vlad, aka Drakul, I
believe, began the successful beating back of the Turks of their
intended world domination. Only uneducated red-necks don't know this,
and repeat the phrase, I suspect because cartoons and the movies portray
Vlad so. As for me, Vlad is a, shall we say the American diminutive form
of my name, reserved for friends and close ones. You are not aware that
diminituves, or nicknames are not polite to use when people don't know
each other well. But you wear rudeness so well, Saida. I firmly believe
that in this case, the best way to deal with Saida is to invoke Stalin's
dictum - given 'em a piece of rope, and they'll hang themselves - will
work for Saida as well. Shills can't pass on the temptation. Stalin, as
we know from the works of Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, by far outdid Hitler in
sheer numbers of people killed. The Turks beat that by a wide margin
between 1892 and 1915/6. Holocaust, take a number - #3. Is this,
perhaps what's bothering you, bucky?
Vladimir
Subject: Re: SCORING THE FIGHT??
From: xina@netins.net
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 18:41:06 -0600
In article <32BC56F3.54E3@PioneerPlanet.infi.net>,
Saida wrote:
Here's Xina:
> I have to say some of the information in this list has been frustrating
> in that it is highly sensationalized. I belong to the House of Netjer,
> run by Tamara Siuda who is an Egyptologist, but believes in practicing
> the Egyptian Religion from what we KNOW through liturgical texts etc and
> that we can substantiate. I think Im going to invite her to be a part
> of it and see where it goes.
>
> Would love to hear your thoughts. You seem to be one of the few with
> thier heads screwed on straight.
I do remember having a good deal of respect for you at one time, at least I did
until about a week ago. I would have
to say that in one week's time you have completely obliterated that. Thank you
for showing me and the rest of the world what you truly are, an embitterd woman.
On the ancient wisdom list we had someone touting an Egyptian Sage by the name
of Rameses Selim. I have no idea how legitimate he is or was but he never made
his appearence on the list. Saida, trying to see just how "legitimate" this
sage was posted this to the list. Those of you who read the hieroglpyphs might
want to check out her phonetic spelling etc.: You can see by the
confrontational tone of this post to an elist that she really wanted to be the
center of attention THERE, too.
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:16:05 -0500
From: Saida
Organization: InfiNet
To: ancient_wisdom@lists.io.com
Subject: Re: Source of Information
Saida wrote:
>
> > Now I have a question for Master Ramses Selim, which he should easily be
> > able to answer. In fact, the most junior priest-apprentice must know
> > this. Here goes, in the old tongue:
> >
> > Enedj herek, ya Tchaisu! Ankh, wadja, seneb! Mai'i inek er ma. Semi
> > tu iref. Djetek set en! Peti tri su Ma'au Tawi? Pu tri renef?
> >
> > I await the answer.
>
My....now who is the drama queen?
And yes this is what I sent to Saida after that:
>Your latest post to the list is proof of that Anyone
> who can speak and write the medum Neters in real time and with such
> eloquence deserves admiration! :))
Again, that is pretty respectful. (BTW...I showed your "phrase" to another
person who is more fluent than even yourself in the hieroglyphs..and the
commentary was "wow,...pretty crappy." but even then I chose to go forward and
say:
>
> Im just starting in learning the Medu Neters, I wish I knew more. I
> really want to know as much as I can, but other than intense self study,
> which I have done for a fair amount of time, I have to admit you have
> left me quite 'dusted' as it were. I get the general gist of what you
> are saying however.
>
> On a lighter note, if you ever want a devoted student, anxious to
> please, I would be happy to apply! Where do I sign my life away!?
To which you never replied. You are far too busy pursuing people whom you have
an unexplainable grudge. Why? No one can explain it, least of all you. Oh
that's right.
> MY contention is that I am not really fighting anybody. I don't really
> know how to deal with such people. If the inmates have been allowed to
> take over the asylum, it is not my fault. On a personal note, I am a
> part-time writer and full-time mother. I have no interest in demons,
> witches, witchcraft, warlocks whatsoever.
O.K. Saida. I will say it now for the record. I am a Wiccan Initiate,in other
words a WITCH. I don't shrink from the word, I am what I post. I don't pretend
to be something other than what I am. IF you asked me point blank I would have
said "yes." I have left that Path because its not where I belong. I still
talk to people about it because I DO know something about it. I am not ashamed
of it, nor will I take back a single word that I said to you. I was rather
puzzled at why you never answered, but now I see, you are not only a racist (yes
you ARE..if you deny it you are a liar, too.) you are a religious bigot. You
hate without reason you inflame and defame with no provocation.
I approached you with honor and respect and was rewarded with your venom and
malice. How sad it must be that you have so much time on your hands in order to
sit and fester in such a manner. Nothing I could say to you would ever reach
into such a hardened heart.
BTW...youre not my type either. Frigidity aint my thang!
Xina
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Subject: Racism and ancient history (was Egyptian flame war & Pygmies)
From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn)
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:37:02 GMT
In <32BC3766.7032@ix.netcom.com> August Matthusen
writes:
>
>Doug Kihn wrote:
>>
>> In <32c2261c.110789931@netnews.worldnet.att.net> fmurray@pobox,com
>> (frank murray) writes:
>> >
>> >On 20 Dec 1996 20:02:18 GMT, vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn)
wrote:
>> >
>> >>Never have I come across any ancient writings that put forward
>> >>the notion that skin color had anything to do with intellegence
>> level.
>> >
>> >hmmm...before this could mean anything beyond lips flapping in the
>> >wind of voice, i'd need some mention of which ancient texts you've
>> >examined that deal with both the concept of "intelligence level"
and
>> >the possibility that it "had anything to do with" anything at
>> >all...might you cite a few such texts??...
>> >
>> >frank
>> >
>> Most Roman Republican sources (Livy, Cicero, Caesar, Plautius,
Sallust,
>> etc.), Greek sources, Chinese sources, it's pointless to rattle off
all
>> of the sources I've read in my life. The question is, can you name
ONE
>> SOURCE before the advent of capitalism that talks about race/skin
color
>> being a determinant of intelligence?
>>
>> All I'm after is the truth. I really want to know if there is a
source
>> like that? Maybe I missed something.
>
>I don't know about "determinant of intelligence" but there is
>the supposed biblical injunction (in Genesis 9) which indicates
>that the children of Ham and Canaan shall be servants of the
>other descendents of Moses. Quite a bit of racism has been based
>on these passages and it appears to pre-date capitalism as we know it.
>
>Regards,
>August Matthusen
Thank you, August. You're quite right, that a lot of racism has been
based on these passages - but beginning around 1500. During the first
2000 years or so of post-biblical history, I don't recall any racist
tracts.
Now it's true that these passages were used by the Israelites to
justify their nationalism. But even the Israelites didn't talk about
skin color, hair kinkiness, lip thickness, "brain size," etc. as a
factor in intelligence. Just non-Israeliness. Correct me please if
I'm wrong.
Racism is really a philosophy. It was first used by the Portugese,
Spanish, and Dutch to justify to their home populations the "new"
institution of slavery. There are plenty of instances of ancient
sources honoring people of different color. It's even difficult at
times for us modern "race conscious" historians to figure out what
color some people were, it was that unimportant. Hence the confusion
and acrimonious debate about the "race" of ancient Egyptians.
For example, ancient Romans were of many different hues, from light
skinned blonds (Caesar) to swarthy hook-nosed southerners (Cato the
Younger), and yet swarthy southerners were never put down because they
were swarthy. Today in modern Italy, racist put-downs by light-skinned
northerers of swarthy southerners is common.
Subject: Re: more on Velikovsky
From: Karl Kluge
Date: 21 Dec 1996 20:42:43 -0500
d.rosin@cs.gu.edu.au (Darryl Rosin) writes:
> In article <92og215st5z.fsf@heron.eecs.umich.edu>, Karl Kluge
> wrote:
>
> >Suppose someone wrote a book claiming pi was *exactly* 3.14159268. Would
> >I have to actually read the book to know it was nonsense? No. Suppose
> >someone wrote a book claiming to show how to square the circle with compass
> >and ruler. Would I have to actually read the book to know it was nonsense?
> >No. While these aren't completely accurate analogies since they deal with
> >mathematical theorems, it's still the case that given an accurate summary
> >of the thesis advanced, it is more than possible to put forward reasons
> >it is rubbish without reference to the specific arguments made in V's books.
>
> Actually, they're _extremely_ bad analogies. Mathematics is not science,
> and once a theorem is proven, no amount of 'new data' could ever cause it
> to be modified. Unlike science, where a model is always able to be
> revised, and even abandoned. (Sorry Karl, you just hit one of my pet
> peeves and it wasn't on its leash...)
However, there may well be a large enough established body of data
contradicting Velikovsky's chronological revision (say) that it's not
unreasonable to a priori dismiss it on the grounds that the problems created
by it have to be far more severe than any problems it solves. At this point
in time, can you imagine *any* conceivable data that could convince you that
Abraham Lincoln died before George Washington was born?
Subject: Re: Carbon Dating (Look up the word "heretic", dear...( Re: Spark the Heretic, you are no Chri
From: Rodney Small
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:55:45 -0800
Don Lindsay wrote:
>
> In article <1996Dec16.212121.26246@atl.com>,
> David B. Greene wrote:
> >>I do know that I read that fibers from the
> >>shroud of Turin was subjected to more than one dating technique.
> >
> >What other techniques were used?
>
> Well, one technique that was used was to interview the artist who
> painted the shroud.
>
> When the shroud first appeared, the Bishop of Turin did exactly
> that. He wrote a letter to the Vatican, saying he had done so. That
> letter still exists in the Vatican archives. Which is why the Catholic
> Church does _not_ hold the shroud to be a true relic.
If you can produce ANY documentation of the "letter" that "still exists,"
I would like to see it. Frankly, your claim sounds either like a
fourth hand legend or was made up out of whole cloth, so to speak.
Regards,
Rodney
Subject: Re: What did the first Organic Thingamadoodle eat?
From: dleichte@nimbus.temple.edu (David Leichter)
Date: 22 Dec 1996 01:56:16 GMT
rejohnsn@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu wrote:
: On 18 Dec 1996, Paul J. Gans wrote:
:
: > Todd A. Farmerie (taf2@po.cwru.edu) wrote:
: > : Please people. The first organic thingamadoodle is not the subject of
: > : anthropology or archaeology. The only way to stop the groups from being
: > : completely overrun by this drivel is to pay close attention to the
: > : cross-posting and the followups, and not continue the discussion in
: > : inappropriate groups.
: >
: > Or, as Todd was too polite to point out, to not continue the
: > discussion at all.
:
: But it has such a cute header!!!!!!
If he ever wants to know about the first humanadoodle though, this would
be the right place.
Dave
: Cheers,
: Rebecca Lynn Johnson
: Ph.D. stud., Dept. of Anthropology, U Iowa
:
:
: Hatrack ratcatcher to port weapons...brickbat lingerie!!
: -- Cdr. Susan Ivanova, B5
:
Subject: Re: Schliemann's Troy
From: Saida
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 20:51:07 -0600
Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
> In article <59clsc$3dd@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> cboulis@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) wrote:
>
> > Everything I've heard on the subject is that Hissarlik is "the" Troy
> > of Bronze Age and Classical Times. The question remains, "Was there
> > a Trojan War as related by Homer?"
>
> It's interesting to compare Homer with stories from other cultures that > engaged in wife stealing. If there was ever a Trojan War, there
were > probably other causes than Helen. Wife stealing was very rarely
a > fatal passtime. Two or three deaths on a wife stealing raid would
> be an event discussed for decades.
>
> I suspect Homer is mostly campfire story.
>
> -- Larry
I recall Michael Grant explaining Homer on television once in a way that
was quite fascinating. In his opinion, Homer was a bard, much in the
style of certain bards in Turkey who still make quite an artform of
memorizing and singing long accounts of Turkish heroes and their
exploits. We got to see a couple of these bards actually performing and
it was quite an illuminating demonstration. In that same respect, Homer
would, indeed, have performed around a campfire and also taught an
apprentice his tales, just as the modern Turkish bards have received
their lore in a long, unbroken chain.
I would also like to mention, briefly, one of the most fascinating
footnotes to the entire Schliemann business--the so-called "Treasure of
Priam" that was supposed to have been destroyed in Germany during the
bombing in WWII--only--voila!--to surface in Russia only three years ago
or so without the Russians ever mentioning that they had it all along.
Subject: Acheulean Hand Ax
From: Don Staples
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 21:09:32 -0800
I have been musing over a hand ax, and its use. Holding it seems natural, for a digging
implement. Yet the multi-facetted edges are of not much use on animal tissue, could
possibly be used on green bone. but it would appear to be of more use as a
agriculture/gathering instrument than a true ax. It would make a formidable weapon, if
hafted, yet there seems to be no attempt of providing a base for a haft.
I have been very successful in the use of single facet blades on animal tissue, and on
certain plant tissues. The hand ax is limited in both.
Has there been any publication on the hand ax that would alleviate my musings? Any
researcher used one for a period of time to determine use? How about thoughts on the
use of same? Reference material?
Subject: Re: Velikovsky and Bob Forrest
From: canepa@mercury.interpath.net (Joe Canepa)
Date: 22 Dec 1996 03:29:36 GMT
As to Bob Forrest's work, I think one should be cautious. Forrest
wrote in the Introduction to his _A Guide to Velikovsky's Sources_
(Published by Stonehenge Viewpoint, Santa Barbara, CA, 1987) that
his original work consisted of seven volumes of a previously
privately published work called _Velikovksy's Sources_. Forrest
goes on to say that _"some of the errors of the original
deleted"_ [emphasis mine, jc].
The 1987 version which I have is only 112 pages. The last eleven
pages are blank of text and intended as note paper for the
reader. What I suspect was that Forrest came out again on the
wrong end of an argument and merely deleted the entire
discussion.
There was a particular debate about Velikovsky's interpretation
of an Egyptian monument found at el-Arish. Velikovksy used two
references: Griffith in 1890 and Goyon in 1936. The debate over
the interpretation was quite vigorous, as the V version had
attempted a link between the Biblical Exodus and an independent
Egyptian source. At one point the V proponents discovered that
the opponents had only read the Griffith source, as the Goyon was
in French, not English. Forrest was quoted then as saying he
would look into the Goyon translation. Alas, Forrest 1987 version
simply omitted the entire el-Arish discussion.
An advocate may not care to recite that which tends to counter
his argument: a serious scholar must.
There are far more scholarly opponents of V's various theories.
The late Carl Sagan did very well in 1973. Henry Bauer in
his _Velikovsky Reconsidered_ gives a fairly balanced account.
The very best past critic was Sean MacWhinney. Leroy Ellenberger,
who occasionally posts to 'talk.origins' is a superb V critic as
is another frequent t.o poster, Tim Thompson.
--
Joe Canepa
canepa@mercury.interpath.com
