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Subject: Re: Joseph's Tomb (Pharoahs and Kings) -- From: dmtstudio@aol.com (Dmtstudio)
Subject: Re: Dating Problem ! -- From: dmtstudio@aol.com (Dmtstudio)
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Subject: Re: TIME Magazine (Nov 25) humans living 420 years -- From: mjw@doitnow.com (Mike Weatherholtz)
Subject: Re: maize in ancient India: (humor) -- From: larryc@teleport.com (Larry Caldwell)
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: Phillip Assaad
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: Phillip Assaad
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Subject: BOZBURUN WRECK - Underwater Archeology -- From: ATLAS
Subject: Re: Copper age? -- From: Markus Figel
Subject: Re: Carbon Dating (Look up the word "heretic", dear...( Re: Spark the Heretic, you are no Chri -- From: Mark W. Tiedemann
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: Mark W. Tiedemann
Subject: Re: Yuri's smoking guns (was: Testing Gourd Diffusion? -- From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: What were the Maya really like? -- From: "Gord Bowman"
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Subject: Re: TIME Magazine (Nov 25) humans living 420 years -- From: SilverCat
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug)
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug)
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower)
Subject: Handedness started when? -- From: kenk@primenet.com (Ken Knecht)
Subject: Re: maize in ancient India: transpacific links (cont.) -- From: bg364@torfree.net (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Subject: Re: Nada "Out of India" -- From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Subject: Re: The Tiles of Ramses III: Another Answer -- From: ariwyler@aol.com (AriWyler)
Subject: Re: The Tiles of Ramses III: Another Answer -- From: August Matthusen
Subject: Shroud of Turin -- From: mansoora@aol.com (Mansoora)
Subject: Phoney Egyptologists -- From: mansoora@aol.com (Mansoora)
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line) -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: children's toys in the archaeological record? (small humor) -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Colleges & Universities -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Q: Did the lost continent of Mu really exist? -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: Judith Stroud
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history -- From: Judith Stroud

Articles

Subject: Re: Joseph's Tomb (Pharoahs and Kings)
From: dmtstudio@aol.com (Dmtstudio)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 05:00:31 GMT
Rick J. Gunter wrote:
>>>>>>>
I was distracted while watching the last episode of "Pharoahs and Kings" 
(David Rohl) on TLC and didn't catch the name of the site that was
believed to 
be the city of the Hebrews in Egypt.  The site was a city of
"non-egyptians" 
in the Nile delta and included a distroyed tomb that Rohl was claiming to
be 
the tomb of the biblical Joseph.  Where is this dig located and what is it
called?  Does anyone know of any other information that has been published
on 
this site?
>>>>>>>
Look for a book, also titled "Pharoahs and Kings" by David Rohl.  It's
full of great pictures and interesting theories; whether you believe them
or not is up to you.  I got a copy of it at Barnes and Nobles in the
History/Archaeology section.
Rick J. Gunter
Email: rjg@msg.ti.com
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Subject: Re: Dating Problem !
From: dmtstudio@aol.com (Dmtstudio)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 05:07:41 GMT
Emilio Sempris wrote:
>>>>>>>
What Geological references help Physical Anthropologists  to Solve the
Dating Problems of  the Hominids Found at Stetkfontein in South Africa
?  
any contribution will be more than helpful..
>>>>>>>>
What - has no one yet found archaeological evidence of the ancient
Stetkfontein Singles Bars?  I believe these were one of the primary
recourses with which the early hominids solved their own dating problems.
Well, you did say ANY contribution would be helpful..... 
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 08:33:18 GMT
On 2 Jan 1997 01:25:16 GMT, Ron Kephart 
wrote:
>The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation of 
>people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what differences 
>in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and, perhaps 
>more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be to 
>make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for it! 
>Any seconds?
prior to seconding, i seek a point of information...would the
"anthropology" that you prescribe for all include the study of those
uncomfortable facts on differentials in average intelligence between
groups??...further, would such study be conducted without the
predecision that all data pointing towards a genetic basis for such
differentials were in error??...
a negative to either of the above would not only preclude the
possibility of a reduction in racial strife, but worse, increase
it...a few moments consideration of the laws of material implication
from the propositional calculus (often miscalled "the paradoxes of
material implication") coupled with an understanding of how lie
detectors work should make this obvious...
lies cause the same destructive stresses in culture as in
individuals...they are anti life... false statements (mistakes) fail
to resonate with the energies necessary for their stating,  and are
thus: only entrophic...known lies set living energetic systems into
active conflict, and are thus: actively destructive...
any "anthropology" which chooses the "comforting" lie over the facts
falls into the latter category...
frank
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Subject: Re: TIME Magazine (Nov 25) humans living 420 years
From: mjw@doitnow.com (Mike Weatherholtz)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 03:16:43 GMT
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996 09:13:00 -0600, "David C. Clark"
 wrote:
>The Delaware tribe in North America also have written records showing a
>huge flood.
And the Pima Indians record a flood that covered all but the top of
the Superstition Mountains. The waterline can still be seen (if it is
not just a discolored layer of rock) That doesn't meat it's true, or
even plausible.
	Mike Weatherholtz
	TIP #411
	http://www.doitnow.com/~mjw
        Disclaimer: In the immortal worsd of Socrates
                    "I know nothing".
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Subject: Re: maize in ancient India: (humor)
From: larryc@teleport.com (Larry Caldwell)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 15:51:53 -0800
Y. K. claims sculptures of maize in India, while archaeologists claim not
a single corncob in the kitchen.  
This is not a contradiction.
Obviously the sculpture is evidence for a brisk trade in sculptors.
Anasazi on the Ganges.  They may have started the trip with maize, but
popped it all around the campfire on the trip.  
Isn't this fun?  
-- Larry
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Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: Phillip Assaad
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 14:41:01 -0500
Claudia Mason wrote:
> 
> I would appreciate it if all replies be E-mailed to the respective
> parties involved in this philosophical debate  You are clogging up both
> Archaeology sites with this enigmatic question which has no answer
Claudia:
I am never on these Archaeology sites.  If others post their messages on
that site, it's not my business.  But as for this question not having an
answer.  Well, there is a very simple answer but some of these black
BOYS are so stupid that they don't wanna get it through their thick
skulls.  The answer is that these people don't know anything about their
culture as Americans and therefore they want to go and claim that they
are part of the oldest and greatest civilization ever - the Egyptian
civilization (mine).
Best Regards,
Phil
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Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: Phillip Assaad
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 14:49:14 -0500
fmurray@pobox, frank murray wrote:
> 
> if you've difficulties locating the resources or materials nececessary
> to comply with either of the above, let me know...beaming with the
> spirit of human compassion towards the less fortunate, i'll try to
> help...
> 
> good luck,
> 
> frank
Frank:
Ok, you have managed to make me feel stupid and I'm not ashamed to say
that.  I have replied with much audacity and you were able to come back
and respond in a calm and civilized manner and in that I highly commend
you.
You must understand though that after first reading Ausar's postings, I
have a very negative prejudice against all afrocentrical people.  I have
very low tolerance for them because I assume that you're all just as
vulgar and as stupid as that BOY Ausar - The lord of the perfect black. 
By the way, I'm assuming you're black - so does that mean that Ausar is
your lord?  After all that's what that BOY claims, that he is your lord,
being a black man and all.
Anyways, I think I can still hold discussions with you and set your
thinking straight since you seem like a reasonable human being, unlike
that BOY who just needs to be shackled up.
You wanna know what that BOY e-mailed me?  He told me he wanted me to
meet him face to face on the West Coast and he will show me how violent
he will get with me.  WHat's he gonna do?  Tie me down and have me
listen to Gangsta Rap until my ears fall off??
Phil
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 96 16:05:11 GMT
In article <01bbf6e9$87dc5f80$67b45c90@preinstalledcom>,
   "William Belcher"  wrote:
>Paul:
>
>The association of skin color with social class in South Asia is definitely
>a complex issue - based on geography as well as many other factors. Based
>on my experience in Pakistan and India, lighter skin color is more
>desirable, hence the wide range of skin care products for women that
>"bleach" the skin. Also many of my fishermen informants always talk about
>wanted a lighter skinned wife, but they can't afford the bride price (in
>the Pakistani Punjab, the ideal wife is an Afghani refugee as they have
>extremely light skin). I have also overheard many of my workcrew refer to
>an individual as low-caste and that you could tell because his skin is so
>dark. Nothing academic here, just a few personal observations based on
>friendships with a large number of working class Punjabi villagers.
>
Wanting a lighter-skinned wife does not necessarily have anything to do with
race.  Even in some African societies they prefer lighter skinned brides because
light skin tends to mean the women haven't been working in the fields.  However,
they prefer lighter-skinned women of their own race.  
If you observe ancient Indian art, male and female couples often consist of
a dark, or even black-colored male, with a female of much lighter skin.
In India, in general, they prefer wives of their own kind.  Now how matter light
a woman's skin, if they are non-Indian, there's going to be some trouble with
the parents. The bride should furthermore be of the same general region in India.
At least, that's the case for traditional Indians.  
Paul Kekai Manansala
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Subject: BOZBURUN WRECK - Underwater Archeology
From: ATLAS
Date: 2 Jan 1997 11:44:04 GMT
For years the local sponge divers were the only witnesses of the medieval
ship wreck at the bottom of the cliffs of Kucuven Headland at the west of
Sig Harbor in Bozburun. The ship sank because of strong northerly winds
which blow in summer even today. The pile of more than two thousand
amphoras was discovered in the course of investigations of local diver
Mehmet Askin in 1973 and shown to George Bass, founder of the Institute
of Nautical Archaeology. Excavation of the wreck began in 1995, conducted
by a team of students and experts from Turkey, the USA, Britain, Israel,
New Zealand and Canada.
    Southwest of Marmaris, not far beyond Orhaniye, where the main road
turns away from the sea to climb over the pass to Bozburun, lies the
small village of Selimiye.  Less than a thousand people live here, mostly
farmers and fishermen.  A narrow road runs through the town, past the
seaside mosque and a few restaurants catering to visiting yachts.  If, in
June, July, or August, you follow the road all the way to the end, where
it disappears into the waters of Sig Liman (Shallow Inlet), you will find
a walled olive grove filled with bamboo-roofed huts.  Tourists who drive
up in rented jeeps from Marmaris or yachtsmen who anchor in the bay often
mistake it for a resort or restaurant, but these simple houses are home
to an international team from the Institute of Nautical Archaeology, who
are excavating an 1100-year-old ship wrecked on the rocks outside the
mouth of the harbor...
     Every morning except Friday, they load twenty sets of scuba tanks
and a large tank of oxygen into three small boats and head out past the
jagged teeth of Küçüven Burnu (Point) into
Hisarönü Körfezi (Castlefront Bay), then back down the
face of the cliffs to a three-story wood and concrete platform perched on
a small spur of rock just above the water.  From this platform, these
scientists dive twice each day to the wreck, which lies against the face
of the cliff over 20 meters (70ft) below.  Four divers at a time, for
thirty to forty minutes each, they carefully brush and fan away the sand
and mud which has covered the remains of a medieval trading venture for
over a millennium.  At the end of the dive, with plastic bags and lifting
trays full of tagged artifacts, they slowly ascend to  a decompression
stop at 6 meters (20ft), where they breathe pure oxygen for five to
thirty minutes, depending on the depth and duration of the dive, to help
purge their bodies of the nitrogen they absorbed while under the
increased pressure of the depth.

The artifacts they bring to the surface, pieces of pottery, iron, copper, wood, bone and glass, are carried back to the camp, where one of the bamboo roofs shelters a small conservation laboratory. Here, each item is begun in the long process of conservation, cataloging, study and analysis. Over the following weeks, often between their dives, project staff members will clean, draw, describe, photograph and sample it for analysis. After the excavation season is over, it will travel back to the Bodrum Museum of Underwater Archaeology for further treatment and study.

The site being excavated near Selimiye had been known to local sponge divers for many years, and it was a Bozburun diver, Mehmet Askin, who showed the wreck to Professor George Bass, the founder of the Institute of Nautical Archaeology (INA), during the first INA survey for shipwrecks in 1973. After so many centuries, it no longer looks like a ship, but is a low mound of amphoras (two-handled ceramic jars), 20 meters (70ft) long and 8 meters (25ft) wide, lying in the sandy slope at the base of the cliff . The upper end of the mound lies 23 meters below the surface of the Aegean, and the deeper end lies at 36 meters (120ft), although exploratory dives have indicated that a few whole amphoras have rolled down to the bottom of the channel, 60 meters (200ft) deep. In addition to the mound of jars, there are broken amphoras and other artifacts scattered in the rocks above, where one end of the ship must have ripped open when it smashed into the cliff. An anchor is among the material concreted into the rocks by marine growth, although we are not yet sure if it belongs to this ship.

This site was chosen for excavation from nearly a hundred ancient and medieval wrecks INA has charted on the southwestern coast of Turkey. There were primarily two factors guiding the choice. The first was the date of the wreck. Initial studies of sample amphoras raised in 1973 and 1982 indicated that the ship sank in the ninth or early tenth century AD. This is a period of dramatic change in the eastern Mediterranean, when the Byzantine Empire entered its medieval "Golden Age" and the Abbasid Caliphate, the last unified Moslem state before the Ottomans, was coming to an end. The Italian commercial cities of Genoa, Venice, and Amalfi were just beginning to make their presence felt in the Mediterranean economy, which had only just begun to recover from the depression that followed the Arab conquest of Syria and Egypt in the seventh century.

Because very little land archaeology has been done on sites of this period anywhere in the Mediterranean, our understanding of much of what happened depends on a few historical documents. Our shipwreck, in its materials, construction, cargo, and personal effects, is a tangible reflection of that world, and offers a unique opportunity to study its economy, technology, social relations, and environment. We are fortunate that this wreck falls between two other wrecks excavated in Turkish waters, a seventh-century ship at Yassiada, near Bodrum, and an eleventh-century wreck at Serçe Liman (Sparrow Harbor), not far from Bozburun. Because of the careful study of those wrecks, we know what questions to ask of this pile of pottery, iron and wood.

The second factor is the state of preservation of this ship. Much of it lies in deep sand, which has protected the cargo and the hull from total disintegration. Many of the shipwreck sites found in Turkish waters have not fared so well. In shallow water, the action of waves and storms breaks up the remains and scatters them, so that it is very difficult to figure out what was where in the ship, or to know what is missing. Even in deep water, if a ship sinks onto a rocky bottom without sand or mud to cover it, little survives except pottery and stone. Here, the sand and mud have not only locked artifacts into their original locations, so that we can tell if an object comes from the hold, and is thus cargo, or from the crew's quarters, but they have also protected fragile organic objects, from bird bones from the kitchen to wooden stoppers in the amphoras to the timbers of the hull itself. The possibility of a well preserved hull underneath the cargo was particularly exciting, as the Yassiada and Serçe Liman ships had shown that major changes in ship construction were taking place in the Middle Ages, but neither of those hulls was very well preserved. Because of the preservation, the wreck at Küçüven Burnu can tell a much more complete story about its owner, captain and crew, as well as the world that produced it, than most of the other wrecks we know of.

Excavation began in the summer of 1995 with the construction of the camp and diving platform. Students and staff from Turkey, the United States, the United Kingdom, Israel, New Zealand, and Canada arrived in Selimiye with three large truck loads of tools, equipment and supplies. In a matter of weeks, an olive grove belonging to a local farmer was transformed into a miniature village, with its own water, electrical, and sewage systems, and an unfinished house just up the road was converted into a laboratory, storage and cataloging facility. Students discovered that doing nautical archaeology means learning how to mix cement, lift heavy equipment, plumb sinks, and roof buildings. At the excavation site itself, we decided that it would be too dangerous to try to moor our research vessel near the site, since the same northerly winds that had wrecked the ninth-century ship still blow all summer. Since the wreck lies 25 meters (80ft) down, but only about 5 meters (15ft) out from the cliff, we decided to build a fixed platform on a spur projecting out into the water. When we began, there was no level space to be seen, only jagged, water-worn pinnacles and boulders of limestone. With sledge hammers, crow bars and cement, we leveled the top of the rock and anchored wooden beams to support a diving platform above the wreck, and two other levels of flooring for all of the people needed to manage the complex diving and artifact recovery operation.

We also spent some time in 1995 creating a safe diving environment. Many diving accidents, and the majority of diving fatalities, are related to divers running out of air. To minimize this hazard, we placed several sets of full scuba tanks around the site, easily accessible to the divers, and set up a small diving bell near the top of the site. This plexiglass dome holds a captured bubble of air at a convenient height, allowing a diver to enter and remove his or her equipment if necessary, or two divers can enter together to talk or solve an equipment difficulty. Oxygen is supplied to the decompression stop at 6 meters from bottles on the platform; in 1996 we improved the arrangement of this system to allow divers to hang more comfortably in the water, where many of us read books to pass the time. I finished three novels this past summer, and another staff member learned Turkish.

Archaeological work began with recording the site, before any sand or artifacts had been moved. We also probed through the sand with thin rods to determine how much of the site lay hidden, and how deeply buried the lowest artifacts were. After determining the limits of the site, we established a number of datum points, fixed markers in the rocks and sand around the wreck, that are used as reference points for determining the location of artifacts. Some of these points are little more than large nails hammered into the rocks, but others are large towers made of pipes hammered deeply into the sand bottom - swinging a sledge hammer while swimming is an interesting exercise! The field objects are scattered over is then divided into 2m (7ft) squares by driving pipes into the ground or rocks and attaching ropes. During the excavation the divers only work in the squares they are personally responsible for. Within the square labels are attached to the site of each object found.

During the 1995 season, we also began the process of mapping and recovering the many amphoras that are the site's most visible feature. We estimate that the ship may have carried as many as 2,000 amphoras when it sank. Many of these were broken in the wreck and over the centuries, as anchors were dropped on the site, and a few have been removed by divers, but there are still probably a thousand or more whole jars left. Originally, the amphoras were stacked in orderly rows in two or probably three layers. We discovered that much of the bottom layer was still in place, and excavation in 1996 revealed columns of jars, their handles neatly aligned, marching like short, fat soldiers down the slope. The upper layers had largely been disturbed in the wreck, and cascaded downward as the upper timbers of the hull rotted away. At the lower end of the site, we found that these amphoras had completely covered over one of the ship's anchors, which is probably still attached to the remains of the bow. We also discovered in 1995 that the upper end of the wreck contained a wider range of artifacts, as we recovered kitchen pottery (plate and bowl fragments and a nearly complete pitcher) and the remains of a hearth covered in flat, square stones. The combination of these artifacts at the upper end and the anchor below told us that the ship had sunk with its bow down, away from the cliff. If so, it may have tried to anchor and been blown stern-first into the rocks.

This past season, we have expanded the excavation areas opened in 1995 and concentrated on the upper half of the site, where we expect to find the majority of small finds, such as weights, scales, tools, and personal effects. We have also worked at removing as much of the amphora cargo as possible, so that we could get a preliminary look at the hull timbers underneath and assess their condition. In 1995, we had found numerous small fragments of wood on top of the amphoras, possibly the remains of the deck. While they did not tell us much about the ship itself, they led us to expect very good preservation farther down in the mud. We were not disappointed.

Our team comes from all over the world, drawn to Turkey by its rich heritage. Many are students, some from Texas A&M; University in America, some from Middle East Technical University, Istanbul and Bilkent Universities. They are the future of nautical archaeology, and some will go on to direct their own excavations. Others are permanent staff of INA, professional archaeologists who have worked on excavations in Turkey, Africa, America, and Europe for over twenty years. All work together, sharing both the exciting and the tedious tasks of an archaeological excavation.

Along the starboard side of the ship, we exposed a large area of the stacked amphoras. Their orientation showed us that the ship lies at a slight slant across the slope, and that much of the cargo had shifted forward and to starboard either when the ship hit the bottom or as the hull disintegrated over the centuries. We also found that some of the cargo had spilled out to the starboard side and had been buried rather deeply under the sand.

The amphoras that we recovered have revealed some interesting details. We examine the contents of every jar very carefully, since minute remains of the original contents often survive. Most of these amphoras carried wine, and many still contain grape seeds and bits of stems. One amphora produced over 400 seeds, suggesting very low quality wine or that this particular amphora received the last dregs from the press. Another amphora was completely full of olive pits. We recovered several jars that still had their wooden stoppers sealed in place with pitch - might they contain wine, protected all these centuries? We carefully removed the stoppers, breaking the seal with great anticipation, but unfortunately, every one of the sealed amphoras was completely filled with mud. Many of the amphoras also have graffiti scratched into them. These marks are normally the initials of the owners, and two owners wrote out their names in full: Nikitas and Leon. There may also be a connection with the Christian church, since two of the amphoras may carry the abbreviation for "bishop."

Mixed in with the amphoras in the upper part of the wreck are many of the smaller finds we expected from the stern. Since the wreck lies on a slope and the stern had been badly shattered on the rocks, it is not surprising to find small objects in this area. In 1995 we had found a large pitcher; three more were found this past season, including two that lay on top of each other , partially underneath two of the stacked amphoras. We were surprised to find even fragile items preserved in between shattered amphoras - the most beautiful find of 1996 was a small, blue-green glass goblet, no more than 10 centimeters (4in) high and as thin as a light bulb. Provisions for the voyage may be represented by several teeth (probably from a pig) and the leg bone of a large bird found among the storage jars.

For many of the excavation staff, the most exciting find of the season was the hull of the ship. It first appeared as a short length of timber with neatly beveled edges, oriented along the length of the ship. As excavation proceeded, we debated what part of the ship it might be. We discussed the possibility that it might be the keelson, the principal internal strengthening timber, but we do not yet know enough about medieval ships to be sure what a ninth century keelson should look like, or even if a ninth-century ship should have one. One of our most experienced divers, Dr. Faith Hentschel, spent two weeks carefully clearing the mud from around this timber, gradually exposing more of the structure. Four frames came to light, and beneath them the keel and outer planking. The planking still shows the marks of the saw used to cut it. The frames have fallen forward, in much the same way that the amphoras have, and the port side has broken away, but the edges are still crisp, and it is still possible to see in the curvature of frames and taper of planks something of the shape of a ship that traveled the Turkish (then Byzantine) coast so long ago.

At the end of August, we packed all the artifacts very carefully and shipped them back to the Bodrum Museum of Underwater Archaeology, where they will eventually go on display for all to see. Erhan Özcan, the representative of the Ministry of Culture, organized the transport, keeping track of where each amphora and stone tile was packed and where it was stored in the Museum. The fragile timbers were covered with sandbags and mud to protect them. The bamboo roofs were taken down, the camp beds put away, the tools packed up and the dive gear sent back to INA's Bodrum headquarters. Over the winter, the artifacts will be conserved, the dive gear serviced, and new students trained. We will look carefully over the drawings and photographs we made in the field, and scour the libraries for information on where and when the ship and its cargo were made. In the spring, shortly before the villagers of Selimiye begin to harvest wheat, we hope to return. The roofs can go back on, the sand and winter debris covering the site can be removed, and we will dive back into the Middle Ages. For complete article with pictures visit ATLAS site http://www.turknet.com/atlas/index.html

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Subject: Re: Copper age?
From: Markus Figel
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 13:35:17 +0100
Robert Jordan wrote:
> 
> I have a friend who doesn't believe me when I say there was a "Copper
> age" prior to the Bronze Age.  Could someone please e-mail me a little
> description of the most accepted definition of the Copper Age (Like when
> it was supposed to have taken place) since I'm an electrical engineer
> with only a passing familiarity with ancient history.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert
> [snip]
A terminus for "Copper age" exists only for the Mediterranean, Near East
Region. It is called the Chalcolitic Age. Copper was used in Europe and
the
Near East several thousand years before peolple used to melt bronze. The
use
of copper was different to the later bronze or iron, due to the softness
of
the metall. There was never an intensiv use of this metall, it was
mainly 
used for jewelry (ear rings, finger rings etc., some copper axes are
known).
Therefore, although copper was used and even its ore was mined and
melted
(not only hammering of natural copper), the terminus Copper Age is not
used
in archaeology (to my knowledge).
The oldest copper artifacts are from the anatolian region about >6000
BC. 
In the Romanian, Bulgarian, Yugoslavian region copper mining and melting
is
known to exist between 4000 - 5000 BC. The oldest copper artifacts in
Middle
Europe are about 4000 BC.
I can't give you exact refereces by now, as I have nothing by hand.
There
are several issues of 'Archaeometry' whith articles on copper mining and
melting (and its dating) and in every book about the neolithic
settlements in
anatolia there should be references. If you are are interested e-mail me
and
I will give you at least the Archaeometry references.
Markus
--- any opinion expressed here here are mine and not those of GSF ----
Markus Figel			GSF - National Research Centre for Environment
e-mail: figel@gsf.de		and Health
				Neuherberg, Munich, Germany
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Subject: Re: Carbon Dating (Look up the word "heretic", dear...( Re: Spark the Heretic, you are no Chri
From: Mark W. Tiedemann
Date: 2 Jan 1997 12:48:32 GMT
>My understanding is that the Vatican issued an announcement in 1994
>declaring the Shroud officially genuine. The 'evidence' is a Vatican
>numismatist who identifies the coins on the image's eyes as
>consistent with
>the Roman currency C. AD 32. Dispute was officially closed at this
>time.
>
>-Graeme.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Graeme Kennedy
>
>
Nonsense.  The Vatican maintains the same attitude, namely that it is NOT genuine, but nevertheless is viable as "an object of veneration" for what it symbolizes.  The case on the Shroud has been closed for some time, but rats on a sinking ship cling to whatever they can find...
Mark
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: Mark W. Tiedemann
Date: 2 Jan 1997 12:51:41 GMT
In article 5af2ps$21l@pelican.unf.edu,
	Ron Kephart  said:
>
>rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower) wrote:
>
>> The only way to lick a culture of racism is to offer an
>alternative:
>> a culture of individualism.  Individual merit as against group
>merit.
>
>I would counter that "culture of individualism" is a contradiction 
>in terms, because culture is acquired in a social group and is
>shared 
>by the members of that group.  Also, becuase humans are social
>animals 
>a "culture of individualism" is inherently anti-human.
>
>The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation
>of 
>people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what
>differences 
>in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and,
>perhaps 
>more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be
>to 
>make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for
>it! 
>Any seconds?
>
>Ron Kephart
>University of North Florida
>
>
Sure, I'll second that.  But then it would be nice to any education at all going on at the level.  
On the other hand, there are people who for psychological reasons will probably never get over their fear of The Other.  I'm not so sure we'll ever get over our annoying habit of making divisions among people for social reasons that can turn into class divisions.  We are a species wedded to segmenting.
Mark
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Subject: Re: Yuri's smoking guns (was: Testing Gourd Diffusion?
From: yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 13:48:36 GMT
geoff@argo.math.ucla.edu.mathnet wrote:
: sci.archaeology discussed maize in 1994. I was reading it more regularly
then, : and posted in a thread involving Hu McCulloch, myself, Jim
Allison, Sandy Dunavan, and probably others. Here's that old post, with
remarks made since posting [[enclosed like this]]. Paul Mangelsdorf's book
: Corn: its origin, evolution, and improvement [by] Paul C. Mangelsdorf. 
Cambridge, Mass., Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1974.  : is a
lot more interesting than the maize diffusion proposal, which was : not
ignored, but was killed dead. 
geoff,
Thank you for posting excerpts from that old discussion.
I beg to disagree with you. Few of the arguments you provide contra
Johannessen seem truly persuasive to me. 
I would also like to ask you why _not a word_ was said in the following
discussion about the most persuasive supporting evidence for Johannessen,
i.e. about the great genetic variability of maize in Asia that indicates 
antiquity. One should think that this is where one would look further to
strengthen Johannessen's arguments.
I will comment, point by point, on the material you provide, although the
attributions are not always clear. 
:  It's interesting to read that the molecular biologists are disputing
whether the evidence : for Polynesian human DNA in the DNA of Ecuadorians
is convincing, but the horse this : thread is beating is long dead. 
Alive and well. As to DNA, I've looked into this, and it doesn't seem like
this research can provide many clear answers at this point.
: Comments on Johannesen and Parker.
: Like Jim Allison, I was not convinced that the sculptures in fact
represented maize, although that's not out of the question. I think there
are some flaws : in the reply by Payak and Sachan as well [[this refers to
comment 5]] : A few comments: 
	...
: 2. See figure 1 of : Payak, M. M. and J. K. S. Sachan. Maize in
Somnathpur, an Indian mediaeval temple. Nature 335, 773-774.  : By no
stretch of the imagination is the object in the male deity's right hand a
half husked corn ear. Note that in this picture, the rows are horizontal
instead of vertical. Payak-Sachan say they looked at many friezes
There are GREAT MANY CARVINGS in these and other temples. You found ONE
that doesn't look like corn? So what?
: 3.Hu McCulloch:  : **** : In particular, they note that the kernel
arrangements : sometimes actually have parallel rows paired in such a way
that rows 1&2, : 3&4, 5&6 etc will be shoulder-to-shoulder while rows 2&3,
4&5 etc will be : offset 1/2 kernel.  This is caused by the pairing of the
kernels in their : attachment to the cob, and is unique to maize.  JP note
that Mangelsdorf used : this trait "as a specific key-identifying
characteristic of maize in : archaeological representations in clay
figures in Mexico." : attachment to the cob, and is unique to maize. : 
**** 
This was an important and persuasive argument by Hu.
: To me it seems that the eye of faith is needed to see this arrangement
in : figs. 3, 4, 6-9. 
To me, the blindness of faith is needed not to see a lot of these
parallels.
: 4. In figs. 15 and 16 the authors see a tassel of silk. Although this
_could_ : be a stylized piece of silk, it's far from being clear. 
Only one of many pieces of evidence.
: 5.On the other hand, I don't think Payak and Sachan are to be relied
upon when :  they say that "maize cultivation in the Karnataka commenced
in the mid-1960's".  : (Quotation from their _Nature_ article.)  
Just one of their errors, it seems.
:  Jeffreys argued about preColumbian maize in Africa and India in many
articles, : and his claims that the words for maize in the languages of
the Deccan meant : Mecca sorghum were not challenged. 
Here, I would like to say a few words about Jeffreys' thesis. He believes
that corn came to India from Turkey. I disagree about this; I already
commented about it in one of my previous posts. Johannessen's thesis, on
the other hand, seems to point to a direct introduction of corn to India
from the Pacific area. I side with Johannessen. I believe that Jeffreys's
theory about the Turkish introduction has obscured the other important
evidence his article contains about the antiquity of corn in India and in
the Old World. His article lost some weight because of this. 
: 6. Hu McCulloch:  : >is mokka jola or something similar -- makka,
makkai, etc jola or jona, ie : >"mokka" sorghum.  Jeffries in Man across
the Sea concluded that this is "Mecca : >sorghum" ie "sorghum" introduced
by the Arabs. But Mecca is not a big seaport, : Agreed. 
Here is an example of how the argument got sidetracked, unnecessarily,
IMO, to the Turkish introduction debate. 
: >If the word is Arabic, the : >seaport of Mocha (: home of Mocha chip
ice cream :) is a better contender.  : Wouldn't it be a better idea to
find out what the word means in Tamil, Kannada, : etc. instead of making a
wild guess ? If you don't rely on Jeffreys's informant, : it's not as
though it's hard to find an English-Kannada dictionary. 
And again.
: 7.  : >PS argue that Hoysala maize couldn't have been the origin of
traditional : >Tibetan and other mountain varieties, because there was
absolutely no contact : >between the south and the north of India in the
13th century or before.  :  >Sounds unlikely to me. 
Another significant error of our critics.
: Me too. One theory (Laufer) has it that maize was introduced to India by
the : Portuguese and diffused through Assam and Burma and/or Tibet in
order to get : to China.
This sounds completely wrong. I don't think the time when the Portuguese
got to India, and the time when they got to China are sufficiently far
apart for this scenario to be valid.
: This would account for the Chinese traditions of
maize being introduced from the west as opposed to the other possibility
of introduction : by seaborne trade.  [[ N.B. tradition is notoriously
unreliable.]]
Chinese tradition says it came from the west a long time ago. This
squares well with an introduction from India a long time ago. Let's just
take it for what it is... 
: 8. There is no accepted instance of archaeological maize or maize pollen
in Asia.
But, pre-Columbian maize pollen HAS BEEN FOUND in India -- as per
Johannessen in ECONOMIC BOTANY!
: This precludes maize reaching Asia long before Columbus, as
Sdunavan pointed out, but as far as I can see does not preclude maize
reaching Asia say in 1300 or 1400 AD.  : I'm underwhelmed by Jeffreys's
article PreColumbian maize in Asia in Man across : the Sea,
It may have been weakened by his Turkish introduction theory.
: and especially by the linguistic aspects of his article,
Agreed.
: but it's reasonable to regard the question of preColumbian maize in
Africa and Asia : as unsettled. 
At the very least!
: [[Well, no. The diffusionist proposal of preColumbian maize was : silly
and unsupported, _and now that flotation is widely used the idea is : 
absurd_, as Sandy Dunavan pointed out later in the thread.]]
I have no idea what you -- or whoever -- meant by the above. Perhaps you
can clarify? 
Best regards,
Yuri.
--
            =O=    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    =O=
  --- a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku ---
We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the 
Church so decides       ===      St. Ignatius of Loyola
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Subject: Re: What were the Maya really like?
From: "Gord Bowman"
Date: 2 Jan 1997 14:02:52 GMT
The book "The MAYA, Fifth Edition" by Michael D. Coe is pretty good,
although I don't remember it mentioning their internal warfare. It's ISBN
is 0-500-27716-8.
-- 
Gord Bowman (gbowman@atlsci.com)
blakfoot@erols.com wrote in article <32CA4DEC.7FCE@erols.com>...
> Bjorn Pedersen wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I'm writing a story which involves the Maya and I have been doing some
> > research, and I am thoroughly confused. The local library hasn't such
> > a great selection on this subject - but I've found on book on the
> > subject by a Mr Eric Thompson. It's quite old. In it the Mayans are
> > portrayed as almost Utopian.
> > 
> > But on the other hand I have some images: one of a figurine of a
> > tortured man which even in picture form exudes the excruciating pain
> > he's going through; one of what appears to be a King committing
> > suicide (He's stabbing himself) and one of a mural or a painting which
> > must be one of the most gruesom depictions of a battle I have ever
> > seen.
> > 
> > Mr Thompson suggests the Mayans were just science buffs, not
> > interested in much else than astronomy and mathematics - but these
> > images speak of a much darker side.
> > 
> > Which is the true image? Is there any books I can order which
> > describes the Mayas in good detail - but in layman's terms?
> > 
> > Thank you in advance.
> > 
> > Take Care Now,
> > Bjørn
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Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 15:22:21 GMT
On Wed, 01 Jan 1997 14:49:14 -0500, Phillip Assaad
 wrote:
>Anyways, I think I can still hold discussions with you and set your
>thinking straight since you seem like a reasonable human being, unlike
>that BOY who just needs to be shackled up.
>
phil,
i applaud your swift change of tone, and congratulate you on having
the integrity to make that change...reasonable discourse brings
sparkle, flames just burn time and bandwidth...worse, most flames are
not very well done...
i've no idea who or what the one you call boy might be...i suspect
though, that there are ways of conversing with him that will bring
forth the curious and  reasoning spirit that lurks within all
humans...grasp the intent to contact that way of his being and the
rest is just strategy and tactics...some work; some don't...but so it
goes...
in cheer, 
frank
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 96 20:02:07 GMT
In article <5abvut$nid@news.sdd.hp.com>,
   geroldf@sdd.hp.com (Gerold Firl) wrote:
>In article , joe@sfbooks.com (Joe Bernstein) writes:
>
>|> >In <5a1bn1$kr0@news.sdd.hp.com> geroldf@sdd.hp.com (Gerold Firl)
>|> >writes: 
[clip]
>
>This brings to mind the relationship between the south indian
>dravidian/tamil population and the hill tribes, who live outside the
>caste system and are treated very contemptuously. That's a case where
>religion, race, and economic interest coincide, and may serve as an
>analogy for early aryan-dravidian relations.
>
Not sure what you're getting at here.  Hill tribes in South India are also
Dravidian.  So what you basically have here is the civilization vs. noble
savage relationship, rather than a racial one.  You could find the same
thing in Africa, where educated, urban blacks sometimes look down on their 
tribal neighbors.
Paul Kekai Mannaslaa
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Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 96 19:53:43 GMT
In article <5abueo$g44@news.inforamp.net>,
   The Hab  wrote:
>pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) wrote:
>>In article <32C73460.6478@lynx.dac.neu.edu>,
>>   Phillip Assaad  wrote:
>>>Paul:
>>>
>>>You must understand this once and for all.  Egyptians of 3000 years ago
>>>had the same exact complexion as the Egyptians of today.  Therefore,
>>>since we are considered by the Westerners as white people, then so are
>>>our forefathers considered white and not black.
>>
>>Sorry, modern Westerners have not exactly been unbiased in regards to history,
>>archaeology and anthropology.  You don't have to read much of their work to
>>find the racist element at work.    But here are a few quotes on what ancient
>>Europeans thought about the Egyptians:
>>
>>
>>
>>	"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and
>>	Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can
>>	see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the
>>	two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
>>
>>	"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged?  Is it because
>>	of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like
>>	loss of wood when they become dry?  The condition of their hair supports
>>	this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle,
>>	_Problemata_ 909, 7)
>>
>>
>>	Dialogue:
>>
>>	Lycinus (describing an Egyptian):  'this boy is not merely black; he
>>		has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a
>>		plait shows that he is not a freeman.'
>>
>>	Timolaus: 'but that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt,
>>	   	  Lycinus.  All freeborn children plait their hair until they
>>	   	  reach manhood...'  (Lucian, _Navigations_, paras 2-3)
>>
>>
>>	Dialogue:
>>
>>	"Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it
>>	Egypt after himself"  (Apollodorus, Book II,  paras 3 and 4)
>>
>>
>>	Dialogue:
>>
>>	Danaos (describing the Aegyptiads):  'I can see the crew with their black limbs
>>        and white tunics.'  (Aeschylus, _The Suppliants_, vv. 719-20, 745)
>>
>>
>>	"...several Egyptians told me that in their opinion the Colchidians
>>	were descended from soldiers of Sesotris.  I had conjectured as much
>>	myself from two pointers, firstly because they have black skins and
>>	kinky hair...and more reliably for the reason that alone among mankind
>>	the Egyptians and the Ethiopian have practiced circumcision since
>>	time immemorial."  (Herodotus, Book II, 104)
>>
>>	
>>	"...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look."
>>	(Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16)
>>
>>
>>And from the first two scholars to visit and comment on Egypt in modern times,
>>including the first to lead an archaeological excavation there (Lepsius):
>>
>>
>>	"Where we expected to see an Egyptian, we are presented
>>	with an authentic Negro."
>>	
>>        -- K.R. Lepsius, during an expedition in the early 1800's
>>
>>
>>	"All of them are puffy-faced, heavy-eyed and thick lipped, in a word, real
>>	mulatto faces.  I was tempted to attribute this to the climate until,
>>	on visiting the Sphinx, the look of it gave me the clue to the enigma..."
>>
>>	"What a subject for meditation is the present-day barbarity and ignorance
>>	of the Copts...that this race of blacks that nowadays are slaves and objects
>>	of our scorn is the very one to which we owe our arts, our science and
>>	even the use of the spoken word (writing).  (M.C.F. Volney, _Voyages
>>	en Syrie et en Egypte_, vol. 1, 74-77, Paris, 1787)
>>
>>
>>Now, can you explain these quotes, Mr. White Fellow?
>
>Let me answer this. (1) The quotes of the Greeks can be balanced with 
>other qoutes that separate the "blackness/darkness" of Ethiopians and of 
>Egyptians...Frank Snowden has written enough about this. 
But S.O.Y. Keita and others have refuted Snowden.  The anthropological evidence
agrees with the quotes above.
(2) the 
>Europeans are not only blind, but are also biased. Volney for example 
>calls the Copts of the time "blacks"...today's Copts are no different 
>than the Copts of the 18th Century and NO ONE without a motive would call 
>the majority of them "black" today.
>
Europeans are biased, but history shows us they would have been much more
inclined to label the Egyptians and other whites (even if they weren't).
Paul Kekai Manansala
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Subject: Re: TIME Magazine (Nov 25) humans living 420 years
From: SilverCat
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 09:41:25 +0000
Arian Mead wrote:
> 
> This is because Gilgamesh wrote, long bePuck wrote:
> >
> > In article <32B1F6B5.D87@smoking.crater>, Grond
> >  writes
> > >>
> > >> A question for those who doubt the Biblical Universal/Global flood.  Why is
> > >> it that the vast majority of ethnic groups have "mythological" stories
> > >> dealing with a  World Flood?
> 
> This is because Gilgamesh wrote about the flood, virgin birth, etc. long
> before the bible was written and all sorts of religions, etc. took these
> stories and added them to their own. Look up Gilgamesh, interesting!!
Wasn't he the cat that always chased the smurfs around or was he
the evil wizard guy?
=-D
Oops...I just dated myself.  ;D
SilverCat
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 15:33:40 GMT
In <5af2ps$21l@pelican.unf.edu> Ron Kephart 
writes: 
>
>rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower) wrote:
>
>> The only way to lick a culture of racism is to offer an alternative:
>> a culture of individualism.  Individual merit as against group
merit.
>
>I would counter that "culture of individualism" is a contradiction 
>in terms, because culture is acquired in a social group and is shared 
>by the members of that group.  Also, becuase humans are social animals
>a "culture of individualism" is inherently anti-human.
>
>The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation of 
>people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what
differences 
>in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and, perhaps 
>more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be to
>make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for it!
>Any seconds?
>
>Ron Kephart
>University of North Florida
Let's stick to the subject, ok?  Racism and ancient history.  Otherwise
we lose the focus and miss out on some great information.
Dr. Doug
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 15:38:39 GMT
In <32cb69d7.14893133@netnews.worldnet.att.net> fmurray@pobox,com
(frank murray) writes: 
>
>On 2 Jan 1997 01:25:16 GMT, Ron Kephart 
>wrote:
>
>
>>The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation of 
>>people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what
differences 
>>in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and, perhaps
>>more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be
to 
>>make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for
it! 
>>Any seconds?
>
>prior to seconding, i seek a point of information...would the
>"anthropology" that you prescribe for all include the study of those
>uncomfortable facts on differentials in average intelligence between
>groups??...further, would such study be conducted without the
>predecision that all data pointing towards a genetic basis for such
>differentials were in error??...
>
>a negative to either of the above would not only preclude the
>possibility of a reduction in racial strife, but worse, increase
>it...a few moments consideration of the laws of material implication
>from the propositional calculus (often miscalled "the paradoxes of
>material implication") coupled with an understanding of how lie
>detectors work should make this obvious...
>
>lies cause the same destructive stresses in culture as in
>individuals...they are anti life... false statements (mistakes) fail
>to resonate with the energies necessary for their stating,  and are
>thus: only entrophic...known lies set living energetic systems into
>active conflict, and are thus: actively destructive...
>
>any "anthropology" which chooses the "comforting" lie over the facts
>falls into the latter category...
>
>frank
>
Why don't we stick to the subject.  If you want to discuss "how to end
racism" or "the nature of modern anthropology" why don't you simply
start your own thread.  It's not hard to do.
Dr. Doug
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: fmurray@pobox,com (frank murray)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 16:04:20 GMT
On 2 Jan 1997 15:38:39 GMT, vivacuba@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug) wrote:
>Why don't we stick to the subject.  If you want to discuss "how to end
>racism" or "the nature of modern anthropology" why don't you simply
>start your own thread.  It's not hard to do.
>
>Dr. Doug
dr. doug,
please read the two posts by dr. doug, dated 12/29/96...
btw...what does the dr. in dr. doug stand for??...
frank
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:27:25 GMT
Ron Kephart  wrote:
>rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower) wrote:
>> The only way to lick a culture of racism is to offer an alternative:
>> a culture of individualism.  Individual merit as against group merit.
>I would counter that "culture of individualism" is a contradiction 
>in terms, because culture is acquired in a social group and is shared 
>by the members of that group.  Also, becuase humans are social animals 
>a "culture of individualism" is inherently anti-human.
For a moment, a long time ago, I thought this.  It is so so wrong.
The genius of the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, democracy, the free
market, the invisible hand, is that they are the pillars of a culture
which is incorporating the concept of the individual, and individdual
competition into it, to achieve a personal freedom, and a freedom from
the prehistoric culture of kinship, rigid order, uniformity,
collectivism, and the inevitable competition confined only to the
group-ethnic level (racism) which results.  The seeming paradox of
altruism and individualism is being resolved.
>The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation of 
>people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what differences 
>in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and, perhaps 
>more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be to 
>make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for it! 
>Any seconds?
You are dreaming, along with the New Man people, when you think the
mere possession of such knowledge prevents racism.  By the way, what
do these differences mean, except that the little group I happen to
belong to is us, and they are them?
Best wishes.   rs
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Subject: Handedness started when?
From: kenk@primenet.com (Ken Knecht)
Date: 2 Jan 1997 10:31:01 -0700
I read in a book (not on archeology) yesterday that tools and such indicated 
that humans had no definite handedness (left or right, all were evidently 
ambidextrous) until the bronze age. I found this rather difficult to believe. 
Is there anything to this?
Ken
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Subject: Re: maize in ancient India: transpacific links (cont.)
From: bg364@torfree.net (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:52:44 GMT
Milo Gardner (gardnerm@gaia.ecs.csus.edu) wrote:
: Thank you for re-citing David Kelley, a non-mathematician. I am
: aware of David Kelley's work and am very displeased with Mayanists
: like him not looking into the basis for Mesoamericans NOT needing
: fractions. 
: Linguists like David Kelley have trouble grasping the fact that
: Mayans used remainders, modular arithmetic, rather than fractions.
	...
[Yuri:] : > I have already mentioned that the work of David H. Kelley
(DECIPHERING THE : > MAYAN SCRIPT, 1976) was very important in
establishing the connections : > between the Mayan and the Indian
zodiacs/calendars/day names. Another big : > name is Paul Kirchhoff. 
: Deciphering script is not deciphering ancient mathematics such as the
: basis from which Mayans handled numbers less than one (1)!
I have cited David Kelley because his work demonstrates the connections
between the Mayan and the Indian astronomical and calendrical systems. 
That's why it's relevant. The mathematical connections are something else. 
Best,
Yuri.
-- 
Yuri Kuchinsky          | "Where there is the Tree of Knowledge, there
------------------------| is always Paradise: so say the most ancient 
Toronto ... the Earth	| and the most modern serpents."  F. Nietzsche
-------- A WEBPAGE LIKE ANY OTHER: http://www.io.org/~yuku -----------
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Subject: Re: Nada "Out of India"
From: whittet@shore.net (Steve Whittet)
Date: 3 Jan 1997 01:38:46 GMT
In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>In article <5aa3ag$one@fridge-nf0.shore.net>,
>Steve Whittet  wrote:
>>In article , petrich@netcom.com says...
>
>>Elam doesn't come into existence until c 2000 BC. ...
>
>        Huh?
When Susa and Anshan join together.
>
>Are you referring to written records of the place? There would 
>certainly have been people there *before* they learned how to read and 
>write.
I am refering to the joining together of two small city states 
located about 450 km apart to form Elam. After this, not just the
two small city states but the connection between them exists.
There is a big difference between a Neolithic site which evidences
the subsistence of an extended family of perhaps a hundred people,
and the advancement of civilization to the point where cities
450 km apart are joined in a common purpose.
>
>>So far as I can see Dravidian actually comes along later, but 
>>Mallory has it in place c 2500 BC being engulfed by some Indo
>>Aryan invasion at the very time the proto Elamite Dravidian
>>proposed by McAlpin must have been in place.
>
>Again, they could have been around before that; I'm not sure 
>when the farmers and (presumed) Dravidian speakers start arriving.
There are farmers in India c 7,000 BC. The earliest evidence of 
a Dravidian language apparently comes after the earliest evidence
of an Indo Aryan language. This makes it strange to talk about
Indo Aryan "engulfing Dravidian". This is totally unrelated to
anything to do with farming so far as I can see.
>
>
>>Giving the impression that Indic is just another name for Indo Aryan...
>
>        So what???
>
>>"The earliest written evidence for Indo Aryan preserved in India
>>only occurs about 300 BC" page 36
>
>        So? They were certainly around long before then, but the big 
>question is -- when???
Yes, this is a good place to begin. Once you have each group assigned
a point of origin and a date it makes the discussion a lot easier to 
follow. When we agree that "They were certainly around long before then"
we need to go on to say who "They" are and pin a specific date down.
>
>>Then he gets into the Indic elements in Mittani c 1500 BC but attempts
>>to show that Indo Aryan is not in the process of moving into India from 
>>Syria through Iran by "excluding the improbable so as to be left with
>>the merely possible".
>
>>The choices are
>
>>1.) The Indo Aryans divided south of an earlier staging area with
>>some moving east and some west.
>
>        If the Kikkuli horse-training manual reflects Indo-Aryan rather 
>than Iranian vocabulary (it's certainly Indo-Iranian, but beyond that, 
>there has been some debate), that would likely be the case.
What is the staging area, and what do the people living there have
to say about the comings and goings of Indo Aryans? Take a triangle 
from the Bosphorus on the Black Sea to Caspian Gorgon to Bahrain in 
the Gulf. That area is pretty much full of people before the Indo
Aryans come along. It also pretty much includes all possible 
"staging areas". Your horse training manual is c 1600 BC. By
then the Gulf trade has been established for millenia.
>
>>2.) The Indo Aryans emigrated in mass across western Asia to the Indus
>>and were later divided by incursions of Iranian speaking people.
>
>        Again, not impossible.
This is what we have been discussing. There is 1500 miles of desert 
in the way. No habitated sites, no evidence there was anybody there 
until after the rise of Elam c 2000 BC.
>
>>3.) The mechanism of linguistic diffusion by sea trade up and down
>>the Gulf by people who were IE, and people who were IA and people
>>who were Indic.
>
>I find that extremely unconvincing, because if aquatic trade was 
>enough to spread languages, then there are several places in the world 
>that would be *much* more linguistically homogeneous than they are -- 
>consider the Mediterranean over the millennia.
The spread of languages is what makes languages less rather than
more homogeneous. The initial effect of a melting pot is best
assessed by getting in a cab in New York.
> The closest it *ever* got was when the Romans conquered all 
>the area surrounding it -- and their language never succeeded 
>in displacing Greek or Egyptian in the eastern part. 
That's because the Greeks and the Egyptians before them, had
access to an Island Empire larger than Libya and Asia combined.
Mycenean Greeks, Phoenicians, Anatolians and Mediterranian sea peoples 
including those on Crete, Cyprus, the Anatolian Coast, the Black Sea, 
The Tyrrhanian Sea, and the rivers of Europe covered more territory 
with trade routes than the Romans conguered. 
The Romans conquered territory but they don't seem to have been 
as efficient in winning the hearts and minds of their subject populations.
>At the present day, we may be approaching the Roman situation, 
>though without the conquest, with English being the most common second 
>language, even if seldom the first language, for those living on its shores.
I would put our multinational corporations  right up there with the 
sea people when it comes to establishing trade. Mycenean Greeks,
and Phoenicians would have been at home selling Pepsi in Russia
and McDonalds franchises in Riyahd.
>
>Mr. Whittet, you *really* have to realize that a small island is 
>a rather atypical environment, no matter how much experience you've had 
>living on one.
Something like 80 percent on the worlds population lives on or near
a coastline. Though ports are not farms, they are far from being
atypical as we enter the 3rd millenium AD.
>-- 
>Loren Petrich
steve
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Subject: Re: The Tiles of Ramses III: Another Answer
From: ariwyler@aol.com (AriWyler)
Date: 3 Jan 1997 01:56:48 GMT
Joe Canepa wrote:
>"While in Nubia, Weeks [Egyptologist, Kent Weeks,jc] excavated an
>ancient working class cemetery, pulling some seven thousand
>naturally desiccated bodies out of the ground. In a study of diet
>and health, he and a professor of orthodontics named James Harris
>X-rayed many of the bodies. The Weeks and Harris persuaded the
>Egyptian government to allow them to X-ray the mummies of the
>pharaohs, by way of comparison. A team of physicians,
>orthodontists, and pathologists studied the royal X-rays, hoping
>to determine such things as the age at death, cause of death,
>diet, and medical problems. They learned that there was little
>difference between the two classes in diet and health.
Well, this is misleading.  There WAS probably quite a difference in diet. 
Harris studied the teeth.  From teeth of mummies you can't determine
everything the living persons ate.  What these mummies did evidence was
lack of dental caries and much wearing.  Little or no caries or decay
indicates a diet containing little or no sugar.  The excessive wearing was
caused by the gritty sand particles in the bread, a problem that neither
commoner nor pharaoh could escape in ancient Egypt.  The wearing led to
abcesses, tooth loss and even systemic poisoning resulting in death.
>One finding caused an uproar among Egyptologists. The medical
>team had been able to determine ages at death for most of the
>pharaohs, and in some cases these starkly contradicted the
>standard of the Egyptologists."
This is a strange statement.  The "medical team" was NOT able to determine
ages of death, only ballpark figures based on amount of tooth wear.  These
estimates, in most cases, were compatible with the ages at death
previously assigned to the kings in most cases.
>Preston goes on to explain that perhaps the ancient priests or,
>as recently as the 19th century, parties not identified mixed up
>the mummies and the name dockets. Maybe, but then again maybe
>Newton was correct and the standard chronology is suspect. 
Reports that the 21st Dynasty priests mixed up the pharaohs is
unsubstantiated. Actually, the priests did a remarkable job.  Of all the
kings accounted for, only one, the putative Thutmose I, is suspect on the
grounds that the mummy was too young at death.   The royal mummies, as a
group, really indicate nothing to belie the standard  chronology.  Let us
put this this way:  where one gains a few years in age at death, another
loses a few years in turn.  It all comes out in the wash.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: The Tiles of Ramses III: Another Answer
From: August Matthusen
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 18:35:05 -0800
Alan Shaw wrote:
[snip]
> 3.      If you like, for the sake of argument, I will concede the last
> point, and assume that Preece had spotted the DC flaw. Would that
> justify the categorical statement "Edison's electric lamp is a
> completely idiotic idea"? Even your flashlight, August, gives the lie
> to that. I wish Edison had been invited to that Royal Society lecture,
> with the opportunity to set up his apparatus beforehand. When he hears
> the words "a completely idiotic idea" he turns off the gas lights.
> Consternation. Then he switches on the DC. Enough said?
Then Tesla cranks up one of his coils and *really* wows 
the audience.
Please do not interpret this as me being a Tesla freak or
unduly knocking Edison.  They were both brilliant, quirky
individuals.  Edison patented the bulb, true enough; neat idea.  
However, we do not use flashlights or DC to light homes, 
offices, schools, cities, etc. [quod erat commercialize].  The 
large scale, commercial feasibility of electric lighting was 
dependent upon the use of AC. Edison waged fairly vicious 
campaigns against gas lighting and against AC to push the 
commercialization of DC (after all, if you can't sell something 
you've patented, what good is it to you and you sell more 
electricity per bulb than the bulbs cost).  He won against gas 
and lost against AC.
Regards,
August Matthusen
Return to Top
Subject: Shroud of Turin
From: mansoora@aol.com (Mansoora)
Date: 3 Jan 1997 03:33:43 GMT
Minds are like parachutes. They only function when opened !
Return to Top
Subject: Phoney Egyptologists
From: mansoora@aol.com (Mansoora)
Date: 3 Jan 1997 03:29:13 GMT
Marc, there are some Egyptology PhD's who think their title is a  "
license to steal". 
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:55:05 -0500
Phillip Assaad wrote:
> 
> fmurray@pobox, frank murray wrote:
> >
> 
> > if you've difficulties locating the resources or materials nececessary
> > to comply with either of the above, let me know...beaming with the
> > spirit of human compassion towards the less fortunate, i'll try to
> > help...
> >
> > good luck,
> >
> > frank
> 
> Frank:
> 
> Ok, you have managed to make me feel stupid and I'm not ashamed to say
> that.  I have replied with much audacity and you were able to come back
> and respond in a calm and civilized manner and in that I highly commend
> you.
> 
> You must understand though that after first reading Ausar's postings, I
> have a very negative prejudice against all afrocentrical people.  I have
> very low tolerance for them because I assume that you're all just as
> vulgar and as stupid as that BOY Ausar - The lord of the perfect black.
> By the way, I'm assuming you're black - so does that mean that Ausar is
> your lord?  After all that's what that BOY claims, that he is your lord,
> being a black man and all.
> 
> Anyways, I think I can still hold discussions with you and set your
> thinking straight since you seem like a reasonable human being, unlike
> that BOY who just needs to be shackled up.
> 
> You wanna know what that BOY e-mailed me?  He told me he wanted me to
> meet him face to face on the West Coast and he will show me how violent
> he will get with me.  WHat's he gonna do?  Tie me down and have me
> listen to Gangsta Rap until my ears fall off??
> 
> Phil
LOL Phil - that does seem a bit off - but of course we all know that
this incessant BOY stuff is nothing but bait.  
I am not black, and I am not particularly Africentrist, but all
invective aside, ancient Egyptians would have all have fit in nicely at
any Alabama plantation.  The western concept of 'white' and 'black'
simply does not apply to a culture which encapsulates everything from
the Sudan to Saudi Arabia. 
Imagine an Archaeologist 4000 years from now asking, "Were Americans
Black?"
Yes, some were.  Others were not.  200 years from now, perhaps the white
American Male will be a minority. And so what?  Haven't we evolved
culturally beyond these questions?
Are the British Black?  Are South Africans White?  The idea of affixing
such absurd labels to a diverse group belittles the culture of Egypt,
ancient and modern, and moreover belittles the culture of the person
even asking the question.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:42:19 -0500
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> 
> In article <5abueo$g44@news.inforamp.net>,
>    The Hab  wrote:
> >pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) wrote:
> >>In article <32C73460.6478@lynx.dac.neu.edu>,
> >>   Phillip Assaad  wrote:
> >>>Paul:
> >>>
> >>>You must understand this once and for all.  Egyptians of 3000 years ago
> >>>had the same exact complexion as the Egyptians of today.  Therefore,
> >>>since we are considered by the Westerners as white people, then so are
> >>>our forefathers considered white and not black.
> >>
> >>Sorry, modern Westerners have not exactly been unbiased in regards to history,
> >>archaeology and anthropology.  You don't have to read much of their work to
> >>find the racist element at work.    But here are a few quotes on what ancient
> >>Europeans thought about the Egyptians:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>      "Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and
> >>      Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can
> >>      see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the
> >>      two." (?) (Aristotle, _Physiognomy_, 6)
> >>
> >>      "Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged?  Is it because
> >>      of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like
> >>      loss of wood when they become dry?  The condition of their hair supports
> >>      this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations..." (Aristotle,
> >>      _Problemata_ 909, 7)
> >>
> >>
> >>      Dialogue:
> >>
> >>      Lycinus (describing an Egyptian):  'this boy is not merely black; he
> >>              has thick lips and his legs are too thin...his hair worn in a
> >>              plait shows that he is not a freeman.'
> >>
> >>      Timolaus: 'but that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt,
> >>                Lycinus.  All freeborn children plait their hair until they
> >>                reach manhood...'  (Lucian, _Navigations_, paras 2-3)
> >>
> >>
> >>      Dialogue:
> >>
> >>      "Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and called it
> >>      Egypt after himself"  (Apollodorus, Book II,  paras 3 and 4)
> >>
> >>
> >>      Dialogue:
> >>
> >>      Danaos (describing the Aegyptiads):  'I can see the crew with their black limbs
> >>        and white tunics.'  (Aeschylus, _The Suppliants_, vv. 719-20, 745)
> >>
> >>
> >>      "...several Egyptians told me that in their opinion the Colchidians
> >>      were descended from soldiers of Sesotris.  I had conjectured as much
> >>      myself from two pointers, firstly because they have black skins and
> >>      kinky hair...and more reliably for the reason that alone among mankind
> >>      the Egyptians and the Ethiopian have practiced circumcision since
> >>      time immemorial."  (Herodotus, Book II, 104)
> >>
> >>
> >>      "...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look."
> >>      (Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16)
> >>
> >>
> >>And from the first two scholars to visit and comment on Egypt in modern times,
> >>including the first to lead an archaeological excavation there (Lepsius):
> >>
> >>
> >>      "Where we expected to see an Egyptian, we are presented
> >>      with an authentic Negro."
> >>
> >>        -- K.R. Lepsius, during an expedition in the early 1800's
> >>
> >>
> >>      "All of them are puffy-faced, heavy-eyed and thick lipped, in a word, real
> >>      mulatto faces.  I was tempted to attribute this to the climate until,
> >>      on visiting the Sphinx, the look of it gave me the clue to the enigma..."
> >>
> >>      "What a subject for meditation is the present-day barbarity and ignorance
> >>      of the Copts...that this race of blacks that nowadays are slaves and objects
> >>      of our scorn is the very one to which we owe our arts, our science and
> >>      even the use of the spoken word (writing).  (M.C.F. Volney, _Voyages
> >>      en Syrie et en Egypte_, vol. 1, 74-77, Paris, 1787)
> >>
> >>
> >>Now, can you explain these quotes, Mr. White Fellow?
> >
> >Let me answer this. (1) The quotes of the Greeks can be balanced with
> >other qoutes that separate the "blackness/darkness" of Ethiopians and of
> >Egyptians...Frank Snowden has written enough about this.
> 
> But S.O.Y. Keita and others have refuted Snowden.  The anthropological evidence
> agrees with the quotes above.
> 
> (2) the
> >Europeans are not only blind, but are also biased. Volney for example
> >calls the Copts of the time "blacks"...today's Copts are no different
> >than the Copts of the 18th Century and NO ONE without a motive would call
> >the majority of them "black" today.
> >
> 
> Europeans are biased, but history shows us they would have been much more
> inclined to label the Egyptians and other whites (even if they weren't).
> 
> Paul Kekai Manansala
I enjoyed the above quotations very much.  They are I feel quite
convincing in favor of a 'black' Egypt, as opposed to a 'white' one--and
I am not black nor an Africentrist.  The thing to keep in mind at all
times is the variety of skin tone in Egypt.  In Predynastic and Dynastic
Egypt the skin tone certainly ranged from the blackest skin of the Upper
Egyptian/Sudanese to the lighter amber of the Delta.  Greek and
mesopotamian influxes had an effect, certainly, but the fact that the
'shorthand' for an Egyptian was a black skinned person (reference our
'shorthand' of an Oriental as a person with almond eyes) is deeply
persuasive.  An author needs to accomplish as much as possible in as few
words as possible, so the playwrights go for the obvious.  
BUT - I wonder how much contact the average Greek had with a central or
south African--how 'Black' would a person need to be for a Greek to
classify them as 'Black'?  Keeping in mind that Greeks themselves are
not Pale...
Return to Top
Subject: Re: children's toys in the archaeological record? (small humor)
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 22:06:40 -0500
blakfoot@erols.com wrote:
> 
> Deborah Burnham wrote:
> >
> > Samuel Wilson wrote:
> >
> >  I'm interested in artifacts which might have been children's toys.  I'm
> >  surprised that such things seem comparatively rare in the archaeological
> >  record.  It's certainly possible that we've misread toys as "religious
> >  objects" but I doubt if that entirely accounts for the scarcity.  From
> >  my own kids I know that toys  preserve rather poorly and are not very
> >  well curated.  Maybe that's the answer.
> >
> >
> > There are also some Mexican pull toys.... what is amazing is that it is
> > the only sign of wheel use....strange they never thought to expand into
> > full size.... may have been the lack of pulling animals.
> >
> > Deborah Burnham
> 
> Didn't I read somewhere about a "Tickle Me Pharaoh" doll?
I believe the first evidence of the wheel in Egypt is also in a toy - I
may be mixing up the Mexican artifact cited, but I swear I heard this in
a documentary once - and we all know a wheel is of little use in desert
sand or delta swamp...
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Colleges & Universities
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 22:14:45 -0500
Matthew Tanner wrote:
> 
>         I just looking for some advice...what are some renowned or good schools
> for archaeology?  Thanks
> 
> Mateo
The Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago is probably at the
top of the list for Near Eastern studies in the US...If you are
interested in Mesopotamia, Egypt, etc, don't pass it up.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:33:29 -0500
Robert Snower wrote:
> 
> Ron Kephart  wrote:
> 
> >rs222@worldnet.att.net (Robert Snower) wrote:
> 
> >> The only way to lick a culture of racism is to offer an alternative:
> >> a culture of individualism.  Individual merit as against group merit.
> 
> >I would counter that "culture of individualism" is a contradiction
> >in terms, because culture is acquired in a social group and is shared
> >by the members of that group.  Also, becuase humans are social animals
> >a "culture of individualism" is inherently anti-human.
> 
> For a moment, a long time ago, I thought this.  It is so so wrong.
> The genius of the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, democracy, the free
> market, the invisible hand, is that they are the pillars of a culture
> which is incorporating the concept of the individual, and individdual
> competition into it, to achieve a personal freedom, and a freedom from
> the prehistoric culture of kinship, rigid order, uniformity,
> collectivism, and the inevitable competition confined only to the
> group-ethnic level (racism) which results.  The seeming paradox of
> altruism and individualism is being resolved.
> 
> >The best way to cure a culture of racism is to raise a generation of
> >people who have been exposed to factual knowledge about what differences
> >in skin color, hair form, language, religion, etc. mean, and, perhaps
> >more importantly, what they don't mean. One way to do this would be to
> >make anthropology a part of everyone's general education.  I'm for it!
> >Any seconds?
> 
> You are dreaming, along with the New Man people, when you think the
> mere possession of such knowledge prevents racism.  By the way, what
> do these differences mean, except that the little group I happen to
> belong to is us, and they are them?
> 
> Best wishes.   rs
It is one thing to teach such knowledge, and another thing entirely for
the so taught to accept it.
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Subject: Re: Q: Did the lost continent of Mu really exist?
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 22:04:10 -0500
Vladimir Vooss wrote:
> 
> I hope you don't get flamed by this post. You should know that any
> references to Mu, Atlantis and such are usually greeted here with grand
> invective. Since you can't, and I couldn't bring any scientific citation
> to this topic, consider it a red cape/flag to an already enraged bull.
> 
> I am, myself, very interested in this subject, and had studied it to the
> point of coming to the following conclusions:
> 
>         The Earth is far older than we think, and with that the age of the
> human race.
> 
>         The Creation Story in the Bible is as mythological as is the theory of
> evolution.
> 
>         We didn't just experience other civilizations whose temples and trash
> heaps we                            can scientifically study and argue over. There have been
> millenia of other human
>     experience, but so far buried and even recycled by Earth that there
> is no hope
>         for sites and citations.
> 
>         All the above conclusions have been reached by methods of thought not
> currently
>         blessed by contemporary science and education.
> 
>         Which of course leads to the conclusion that the above couldn't be
> explained in
>         any way that's satisfactory.
> 
> It's such a pity that these two divergent schools of thought couldn't
> meet together. Unfortunately Mu and Atlantis issue just has to remain
> New Age drivel in the eyes of science types whose "window upon the
> world" is in my view, far too short and their science too immature to
> warrant such closed-mindedness. On the other hand, New Ageies I have
> known are so enamored of Mu and Atlantis the Paradise far superior to
> our current civilization, that talking to today's scientists is really
> beneath their contempt. Both are in broad concept correct, but
> intractable as to how to meet. See the Middle East conflict as a
> crucible for the same dilemma, but of only slightly different
> ingredients. My own view is that Mu and Atlantis did exist, and their
> full story will never be known. Little peeks can be had, however. If you
> understand and accept the engine of reincarnation, then Atlantis becomes
> a verb for an action we have partial descriptives for: Type-A
> individual, Racism, and others.  Mu is also something of a verb, though
> it started as a noun - Genome comes to mind.
> 
> As to Churchward, those tablets of his are about as believable and
> verifiable as the tablets that begat the Book of Mormon. Othewise -
> duck!
> 
> Vladimir
before we get into another flame of the bible, consider that Genesis
does contain two very separate accounts of creation.  Students of
Literature assert this is evidence for different priestly input--of
course, whichever priest-group gained superiority would immediately have
exised the other account, but we'll let that pass for now--Historians
could consider the possibility of a reference to cultures which predate
the Noah culture (shem, ham, japeth, you know the rest)--
Bear with me here.  Adam and Eve are listed as the progenitors of the
current race of man.  But if a human culture existed which completely
extinguished itself (Mu, Lemuria, Atlantis, etc) and had no progenitors
by the time of the familiar Adam and Eve story (easily read as a
CULTURAL, rather than physical creation), the Bible's detail of such a
race would be exactly this brief...
--possibly smoking the cosmic pipe on this one, but what do you think?
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:35:36 -0500
Gerold Firl wrote:
> 
> In article <5a4bsh$dpg_001@dialin.csus.edu>, pmanansala@csus.edu (Paul Kekai Manansala) writes:
> 
> |> In article <5a1bn1$kr0@news.sdd.hp.com>,
> |>    geroldf@sdd.hp.com (Gerold Firl) wrote:
> 
> |> >One example which has been mentioned in passing should probably be
> |> >highlighted further: the aryan conquest of india. The vedas
> |> >specifically note the contrast between the light-skinned gods and
> |> >dark-skinned demons in the mythological struggle for control of the
> |> >subcontinent, and allusions to the formation of the caste system, with
> |> >a light-to-dark color gradient from brahmin to untouchable, shows the
> |> >racial origin of the worlds oldest apartheid system.
> 
> |> Things really are not that clear-cut.  The major gods of Hinduism such
> |> as Shiva, Parvati, Krishna, Rama and Vishnu are described as of dark
> |> complexion (syam-mukha). In fact, the names of gods like Mahakala (Shiva),
> |> Kali (Parvati), Krishna and Rama literally mean "dark" or "black."
> 
> Yes, this is a very interesting example of cultural evolution. As the
> aryans were absorbed by india, demographically as well as culturally,
> the indo-european dieties were supplanted by their indigenous
> predesessors. Shiva and parvati are clearly pre-IE; vishnu, krishna,
> and brahma are possibly hybrids. Why is krishna colored blue?
> 
> As the absorbtion proceeded, indra and agni faded from popular
> consciousness, to be replaced by indigenous indian dieties (dark
> colored, significantly, as the patrons of the dravidian underclass) or
> else by buddhism, which was, in some ways, a more attractive alternative
> for the aristocracy.
> 
> It appears that this process took many centuries. It's a great example
> of the endurance of mythology.
> 
> |> The idea of a racial gradient between brahmin to untouchable
> |> was suggested by Risley, but subsequently refuted by Indian
> |> anthropologists.  There is no clear evidence of a relationship between
> |> caste and race. Brahmins and other upper castes might have ligher
> |> complexions because they stay indoors a lot.  Martial castes like the
> |> Rajputs would be darker, but still high caste. The main color gradient
> |> is geographical not caste-related.  Brahmins tend to be of the same race
> |> as other people of their region.  In fact, a recent genetic study showed
> |> Iyer brahmins were farther away from North Indian brahmins than many lower
> |> castes in the same population.
> 
> This shows how thoroughly the indo-europeans and dravidians have mixed
> in northern india. The aryans didn't have much use for the areas south
> of the ganges watershed; what is the point of going someplace that
> doesn't have good grazing? They occupied the north, and by now have
> become largely assimilated. Subsequent conquests have accelerated that
> process.
> 
> --
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Disclaimer claims dat de claims claimed in dis are de claims of meself,
> me, and me alone, so sue us god. I won't tell Bill & Dave if you won't.
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=----   Gerold Firl @ ..hplabs!hp-sdd!geroldf
But the ideal of divinity in Hinduism is actually BLUE-skinned...a state
of sky-blue hue which NO human race has ever and as far as I know CAN
ever have...think about it...
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Subject: Re: Racism and ancient history
From: Judith Stroud
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 21:30:47 -0500
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> 
> In article <01bbf6e9$87dc5f80$67b45c90@preinstalledcom>,
>    "William Belcher"  wrote:
> >Paul:
> >
> >The association of skin color with social class in South Asia is definitely
> >a complex issue - based on geography as well as many other factors. Based
> >on my experience in Pakistan and India, lighter skin color is more
> >desirable, hence the wide range of skin care products for women that
> >"bleach" the skin. Also many of my fishermen informants always talk about
> >wanted a lighter skinned wife, but they can't afford the bride price (in
> >the Pakistani Punjab, the ideal wife is an Afghani refugee as they have
> >extremely light skin). I have also overheard many of my workcrew refer to
> >an individual as low-caste and that you could tell because his skin is so
> >dark. Nothing academic here, just a few personal observations based on
> >friendships with a large number of working class Punjabi villagers.
> >
> 
> Wanting a lighter-skinned wife does not necessarily have anything to do with
> race.  Even in some African societies they prefer lighter skinned brides because
> light skin tends to mean the women haven't been working in the fields.  However,
> they prefer lighter-skinned women of their own race.
> 
> If you observe ancient Indian art, male and female couples often consist of
> a dark, or even black-colored male, with a female of much lighter skin.
> 
> In India, in general, they prefer wives of their own kind.  Now how matter light
> a woman's skin, if they are non-Indian, there's going to be some trouble with
> the parents. The bride should furthermore be of the same general region in India.
> At least, that's the case for traditional Indians.
> 
> Paul Kekai Manansala
I have to agree - on the same basis that Renaissance-era Europeans
counted light skin and delicacy as finer qualities, as they were direct
evidence of wealth and breeding which the men and women who had to work
outdoors lacked.  It is a matter of economics, not race.
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Byron Palmer