Subject: Re: WARNING to all NON-LICENSED ENGINEERS
From: dano@cyberramp.net
Date: 7 Nov 1996 05:11:05 GMT
In <55p4cl$32c_002@atl.mindspring.com>, dgolding@mindspring.com (Daniel Golding) writes:
>In article <327FE5D8.56BA@compuserve.com>, Dana Hague <75551.1514@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>Right. When I graduated from Syracuse with a degree in Aerospace
>>Engineering, there WAS no EIT to take in Aerospace Engineering. No jobs,
>>either. Now I call myself a Mechanical Engineer (there's not much
>>difference, anyway), and work as a consultant designing mostly automation
>>machinery, a fairly narrow area of mechanical engineering. >> -Dana
>
>That's nice. However, practicing consulting engineering without a PE is
>illegal in most states. Calling yourself a ME may also by illegal in some
>states.
What's the matter with describing himself in accordance to the work
he does?
_I_ got my degrees in Mechanical Engineering, yet my title is Guidance and
Navigation Engineer. Gee, I didn't major in Guidance and Navigation
Engineering in school - so should I call myself one? Do I need a PE to test
me on engineering skills which I can guarrantee you have absolutely
nothing to do with Guidance and Navigation?
If one of the mega experienced people at my company retired early, but was
called back on a part-time basis as a consultant, would YOU insist he have
take a PE test to test him on all manner of topics completely irrelevant to
his consulting?
The BIG problem with the position of proponents of requiring PEs to
practice engineering is that there are many non-PE engineers out there
who KNOW they are good engineers and don't need a PE to tell them or
their bosses that. By proponents going on and on about ensuring competance
and requiring ethical standards via a PE, they're saying non-PE engineers are
crappy and cheaters. But those non-PEs *know* they aren't. So you
corrupt your moral high-ground by being too zealous.
I've noticed an analogue in the USA of civil rights activists calling large
vaguely defined groups of Americans as Racists. You call poeple racist,
.. or not competant or ethical, enough... then they'll just ignore you as someone
with no meaning in their words.
>You must be registered to sell engineering services to the public as
>an engineer unless you are covered by the Industrial Exemption. Frankly, all
>that we seem to hear from unlicensed (and in this case illegally practicing)
>engineers are snide comments concerning a supposed lack of compentance by PEs.
Oh I'm sure there are plenty of competant PEs, it's just that some people
are questioning the usefulness in getting a PE since it has virtually no
bearing on many engineers' ability. Similarly, any laws making practicing
engineering a crime does not by some stroke of magic CAUSE all non-PE
engineers to become suddenly mindless.
>As far as no EIT in AE - At least currently, there are no seperate discipline
>FE exams - it's all one test. I would take it immediately if you plan on
>continueing to practice as a consulting engineer.
Why should he? If he is good at his work and has a track record to
demonstrate to customers, how does getting a PE improve his performance?
>Just because a patient doesn't ask if a doctor is properly licensed to
>practice medicine, assuming the medical degree is enough, your customers
>have yet to ask you about your professional registration. My opinion may seem
>harsh, but engineers such as yourself are working outside the system of
>professional regulation that is designed to regulate our profession. I take it
>pretty seriously.
Sorry to disagree, but I fundamentally do not see this great need for regulation.
And on the prosecuting side of regulation, I do not see the need for
engineering-specific crimes as opposed to any other kind of fraud.
>Dan Golding, EIT
program signature
write(*,*),'Dan Stephenson'
write(*,*),'dano@cyberramp.net'
stop
end
Subject: Re: WARNING to all NON-LICENSED ENGINEERS
From: DRIEDGEW@cal.cybersurf.net (Walter Driedger)
Date: 7 Nov 1996 04:39:22 GMT
In article <847188944snz@transcontech.co.uk>, peb@transcontech.co.uk says...
>
>In article <327E01AA.73E8@hargray.com>
> cardinal@hargray.com "Yan Seiner, PE" writes:
>
>> Walter Driedger wrote:
>> >
>> > It seems you are not aware of process control engineering.
>> > That's what I do. Among other things, I design Emergency
>> > Shutdown systems for oil refineries, and Burner Management
>> > Systems for furnaces large enough to torch entire neighborhoods.
>> > While I can't think of a case in which a software error caused a
>> > fatality let me assure you it is quite possible. The flames from
>> > one inadequately designed ESD system that I know of could be
>> > seen from 9m miles away. (Thats 140 km.)
>
SORRY FOR THE TYPO. I MEANT 90 (NINETY) MILES.
140 KM. NO KIDDING. IT WAS A BIGGY. The plot edge
ESD valve of a pipeline compressor station ruptured at the
site of a recent weld. The compressors went onto pressure
makeup control and pumped the entire contents of 50 miles
of 48" pipe into the fire.
>> I admit I was not thinking specifically of control systems; but I think
>> my point is still valid in many respects.
>>
>> Too often, control systems are installed because they are more
>> economical than designing a mechanical limit. And yes, a failed control
>> system can harm people. But - maybe the answer is a radical re-think of
>> the gas pipeline? Or oil tanker?
>>
>> Sometimes we need to step back and look at the holistic scenario, like
>> Goethe and his color theory. This can lead to a radical redesign of the
>> entire system to make it simpler and more reliable.
>>
>> I've done this many times, especially in writing code.
>
>This supports my position, that anyone involved in the design of software
>for a control system which may have safety aspects should have another,
>hardware based, discipline as his/her main subject.
>
>I an Electronic Systems Engineer who picked up software as part of what I was
>doing. Some of the best process control software engineers I know are actually
>Chemical Engineers or Process Engineers. Those who write the best structure
>analysis software are Structural Engineers. Are these the "REAL" software
>engineers rather than the people that seem to have congregated at companies
>like MicroSoft.
>
YES
>When you take the stance that software is merely a detailed design document
>that step-by-step instructs how the operational code is to be assembled, then
>this sort of view is wholly consistent with other engineering practice and can
>be controlled as such.
>
>--
>Paul E. Bennett
>Transport Control Technology Ltd.
>+44 (0)117-9499861
>Going Forth Safely
>
I agree entirely. The reason I resent the term "software
engineer" is because most of them haven't the foggiest
idea what engineering is. We call these guys programmers.
Subject: Re: aircraft diesel powerplants
From: handreas@msmail4.HAC.COM (Andreas, Harry A)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:43:05 GMT
In article , dougo@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Doug
O'Neil) wrote:
>---- stuff snipped ----
>: reconnaisance plane, and it had an exceptionally long range. I also
>: heard an unconfirmed report that the first jets, like the Me 262,
>: burned diesel in their jet engines as well. Can anyone confirm or
>: deny this?
>
>Don't know about the Me 262, but I know that at least some turbo prop
>crop dusting airplanes (Piper AgCat I think) can use diesel fuel under
>warm weather conditions.
snip
When I worked for an A/C Engine overhaul shop, we used to see lots of
turboprops coming up from South America with big black streaks on the
top of the wing adjacent to the exhaust. The senior engineer expalined
that it was from running diesel. Diesel either being cheaper or more
available than Jet A down there. Led me to the conclusion that diesel
was a little heavier than Jet A. This was on various models of the P&W;
PT-6.
regards,
Harry
A professional is a person who can do his best at a time when he doesn't
particularly feel like it. -Alistair Cooke
Subject: Re: aircraft diesel powerplants
From: Bill McCune
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:47:55 GMT
Greg Garrels wrote:
>
> Ward Burrows wrote:
>
> > Just to add my $0.02, this is not a new idea. There were quite a few
> > WW2 era German aircraft that flew with diesel engines, including a
> > couple production aircraft.
>
> It stands to reason, since modern jet fuel is not really that much
> different from #1 diesel. BTW, in the US in the thirties there was a
> Bellanca Pacemaker the was powered by a diesel radial.
The engine was a 9 cylinder Guiberson radial. A friend of mine has two
that I'd like to see running. (How about on a composite airframe, just
to provide the requisite cognitive dissonance?)
Anyone out there have Guiberson overhaul manuals?
The two that my friend has are ex-Navy (WWII) APU's! They look like
they would run forever with a little TLC.
Bill
Subject: Re: aircraft diesel powerplants
From: Bill McCune
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 05:48:13 GMT
Greg Garrels wrote:
>
> Ward Burrows wrote:
>
> > Just to add my $0.02, this is not a new idea. There were quite a few
> > WW2 era German aircraft that flew with diesel engines, including a
> > couple production aircraft.
>
> It stands to reason, since modern jet fuel is not really that much
> different from #1 diesel. BTW, in the US in the thirties there was a
> Bellanca Pacemaker the was powered by a diesel radial.
The engine was a 9 cylinder Guiberson radial. A friend of mine has two
that I'd like to see running. (How about on a composite airframe, just
to provide the requisite cognitive dissonance?)
Anyone out there have Guiberson overhaul manuals?
The two that my friend has are ex-Navy (WWII) APU's! They look like
they would run forever with a little TLC.
Bill
Subject: Fighting Complexity
From: jamcorp@world.std.com (Jonathan Priluck)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:25:18 GMT
Hello (good morning?),
It's 4:00 am and I can't sleep becuase this new injection mold
we're desiging is driving me nuts. It's not the mold per se so much as the
management of the project and a sudden recognition that I keep running into
a very similar problem in many different areas of our development effort (on
automation of LBM manufacturing). In a nutshell, there seems to be a
tendency on the part of almost everyone I'm managing and working with to
move quickly past simple solutions in a hurry to try implementing more
complex options.
The more complex solutions are always explained to me as "better" in
some way or antoher. In the case of this particular mold the complex
solution will acheive "perfect" geometry. The imperfect geometry would have
left our structure segments with a very slight oval cross section as opposed
to a perfectly round one.
I can't see anything seriously wrong with using a slightly oviod
cross section if it makes the tooling simple to build (which it does). More
importantly I want the simpler mold to be built and tested *before* we move
forward with the much more complex geometry "needed" for a round section.
Needed is in quotes becuase the "problem" of mold release and ovoid cross
section has yet to actually manifest itself in a pysical tool and becuase
there is no indication that the oviod cross section is actually undesireable.
The people doing the design are convinced that this problem exists
and, with gusto, have attacked and solved it by complexification of the job.
The problem might or might not be real, right now it exists (as far as I am
concerned) only in the mind of the design team. They have not proven this
is a problem by trying to actually build models of the tool, software solid
models have been completed but they reflect the bias of the programmers who
were convinced there was a problem before they began. I can see very
clearly that the model is not accurate but am unable to convey the message
in a way that will be openly recieved. The error in question is very subtle
and cannot be pointed out without cuasing more trouble than it's worth from
a management standpoint.
I'm not saying they design is wrong, only that it might be. I am
definately not convinced the round section requires the complex solution,
building the oval section mold would help us understand the problem better
and it would be a useful tool. The people who are building the model have
assumed that the mold will be opened in the Z axis, a simple enough
assumption but not neccesarily a valid one. Just becuase the top and bottom
half of the mold may not come apart if you try and pull them straight apart
does not mean the molds won't release. They may come apart at some angle so
that the axis along which the tool separates is not purely verticle.
I can see the part in my "solid model" (in my mind) and there
appears to be more than enough degrees of freedom for the mold to separate
without damaging the parts. But that is not the real issue, and that's what
I wanted to talk about in the first place. The real issue is that nobody
seems to want to *try* the simple solution first. What I want to know is why
that is?
Best Regards, Jon Priluck
--
* Jonathan Aerospace Materials Corp., 37 Antwerp St. Brighton MA, 02135 *
* Tel (617) 783-4588, Internet: president@jamcorp.com *
* Developers and manufacturers of Lattice Block Materials ... *
* the world's strongest and lightest materials. *
Subject: Inspecting for cracks
From: jon.peltier@alliedsignal.com (Jon Peltier)
Date: 7 Nov 1996 12:46:35 GMT
In article <55qaug$i5k@lore.sprynet.com>, koalmnr@m2.sprynet.com (M. C. (Mike) Albrecht) says:
>
>In article <327F82EA.32E4@mmm.com>, dfroell@mmm.com says...
>>
>>I am looking for a technique to quickly and easily identify hairline
>>fractures and cracks in large steel and chrome cylinders. The
>>cylinders are stored on racks and weigh well over 500 lbs each.
>>I would like to inspect them while they are stored on the racks.
>>Can anyone help
>
>The simplest method is to use dye penetration method. Were a colored
>dye, uusally blue is sprayed on the metal, excess wiped off and the
>surface checked for cracks. Some dyes respond to ultraviolet light
>making them more visible.
>
>A more time consuming method is to use a magnetic based fluid and
>then scan for it.
A third technique would be an eddy current testing apparatus, but
geometric constraints, the amount of surface to scan, and the ability
to reach everywhere with the probe would limit its usefulness. If you
knew how & why the cracks formed, it would focus your search.
|----------------------------------------|
| Jon Peltier Research Scientist |
| AlliedSignal Research and Technology |
| Morristown, NJ 201-455-2373 |
| Jon.Peltier@AlliedSignal.com |
|----------------------------------------|
Subject: Re: Help: Pressure calcs in tubing
From: NewsRadio
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:06:40 -0800
bobvj@smart.net wrote:
>
> Not sure I fully understand your question, but, if the cylinder is
> closed and there is no flow, then you need 4 psi at the inlet.
>
> Bob Van Jones, PE
>
> NewsRadio wrote:
>
> >Hi;
> >
> >I'm looking for the calculations that would allow me to determin what
> >pressure is required at the input to a length of tubing in order to
> >maintain a pressure of say 4 PSI in a closed cylinder at the other end?
Hi Bob;
What I'm looking at is a TV antenna on a 200' tower that needs to be
pressurized to keep moisture out. We usually use abou 3-4 PSI. It is
supposed to be closed, but there are usually very small leaks over time.
The problem is the tubing in this particular installation is close to
2000' long! And its only 3/8" dia. The feeling of our radio technitians
is that the tubing could spring a leak or be cut open at some point, and
we would never detect a problem from the ground where the pressurization
equipment is. I'm not sure this is true...I've dug out my old physics
and fluid mech. texts from school and it would seem to me (Pascal's law)
that 4psi at the input would (given enough time) pressurize the whole
system to 4psi?
John
Subject: Re: WARNING to all NON-LICENSED ENGINEERS
From: Paul Skoczylas
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 08:14:47 -0700
dano@cyberramp.net wrote:
> >
> >That's nice. However, practicing consulting engineering without a PE is
> >illegal in most states. Calling yourself a ME may also by illegal in some
> >states.
>
> What's the matter with describing himself in accordance to the work
> he does?
>
It may be against the law, depending on the location, and how exactly
you refer to yourself. That doesn't mean the law is right, but you
don't go breaking the law, just because you disagree with it.
> If one of the mega experienced people at my company retired early, but was
> called back on a part-time basis as a consultant, would YOU insist he have
> take a PE test to test him on all manner of topics completely irrelevant to
> his consulting?
>
See above.
Laws, of course, vary between jurisdictions, but here in Alberta you
could not ADVERTISE yourself as an 'Engineer' of any kind, if you are
not registered as a Professional Engineer. As far as the consulting
goes, I'm not sure what the law here is, but I suspect it would depend
on the work you were doing.
-Paul
Subject: Re: solder accelerated ageing
From: Robert Davis
Date: 7 Nov 1996 12:05:06 -0800
Jean-Marc Thebaud (Resp. C. Zardini) wrote:
> I am looking for information about solder accelerated ageing, but I would
> like an answer from the mechanics point of view.
[unnecessary quoted text deleted by moderator]
Jean:
define the aging mechanism, is it thermally activated? If so then
follow exp-(dG/kt) Was your thermal cycle great enough to affect the
material properties? What is your "aging" mechanism, what physical or
thermophysical processes are involved? Your thermal cycle needs to be
at least near .5Tm to activate anything, unless a solid state
transormation is on going.
Fatigue, come on go back to the basics-- what is fatigue? What is your
load cycle, what is the load frequency, what are the transient loads,
what are the stress intensity factors??????
good luck.
Subject: Re: Egg drop mechanism
From: "Alan K. Gideon"
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 17:09:58 -0500
mchalefla@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any idea how I can build a device, whose volume is less
> than 400 cubic cm, which can carry an egg through a 10 meter fall, and
> land on concrete without breaking the egg? Additionally, the lower the
> mass of the device, the better.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin McHale
Yes
--
Alan K. Gideon, P.E. | Naval Architect & Marine Engineer
| akgideon@mindspring.com
Subject: Free Online Lecture for Technical Professionals/Managers
From: Dan Gonneau
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 17:49:23 -0800
Engineering Information Village(tm) , the acclaimed Internet-based
environment from Engineering Information Inc. (Ei) for technical
professionals and managers, has launched its first free online lecture
and discussion open to the public. The topic is "Exploiting the Net:
Finding and Using Technical Resources on the Internet."
The URL for accessing the Web-based event, which starts November 7, is
the Ei Home Page (http://www.ei.org; click on "Lecture"). The keynote
"speaker" is Shari Worthington, editor of the online publication
"Science & Engineering Network News (SENN; http://www.senn.com). The
range of her subject will encompass the ins and outs of basic navigation
tools: WWW, ftp, telnet, gopher, mailing lists and USENET groups; how to
find what you need, when you need it; the best and the brightest online
resources; and a look at which vendors are adding what Web capabilities
to their products, such as mathematics, MRP, data analysis/graphing, and
data acquisition and control.
The lecture will remain posted for 8 days on the Ei Home Page, during
which time readers will be able to exchange questions and ideas with
other attendees using Web-based Newsgroup technology. From 2:00-4:00PM
EST on November 15, the lecturer will be on hand to
field comments and questions through a chat session.
Worthington, who describes herself as a "scientist turned engineer
turned editor," serves as Executive Director of the MacSciTech
Association, in addition to her chores as editor-in-chief of the monthly
SENN (which also appears in a print version). She's currently a member
of the board of directors of the Worcester Polytechnic Institute Venture
Forum and has served as President of the Industrial Computing Society.
This is the first of a series of three lectures by guest lecturers,
with details on the others to be announced shortly. After this initial
trio, lectures will be held inside Ei Village, for the benefit of Ei
Village residents. In announcing the events, Eric Johnson, Executive
Vice President of Engineering Information Inc., said, "The lectures are
emblematic of the interactive, communal nature of Engineering
Information Village, which also offers regular access to senior engineer
"mentors." By posting the lectures outside of the Village we can learn
from the participation of an even wider audience, and use what we learn
to further enhance later lectures in the series."
Engineering Information Village is a unique cyberspace service
integrating a broad range of technical and technical/business
information sources into a friendly, easy to use desk-top community
environment to help managers and researchers solve problems and improve
productivity. Engineering Information Inc. is a 112-year-old
information services company. Prior to Ei Village it was known best for
publishing the world's most comprehensive interdisciplinary engineering
database, Ei Compendex, which is available directly from Ei via the Web,
in print as Engineering Index, online with a variety of hosts, in site
license arrangements through Ei and several vendors, and on CDROM. Ei
also ofers a line of specialty engineering CDROMs, as well ad current
awareness and full text, document delivery services.
For information on the online lecture series, Ei Village or other Ei
products or services contact the Company at 800-221-1044, 201-216-8532
(fax), visit the Ei Home Page at http://www.ei.org, or send email to
ei@ei.org.