Newsgroup sci.engr.surveying 3123

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Theodore Swift wrote:
> 
> In article <3236561B.37C5@cerfnet.com>, oksi@cerfnet.com wrote:
> 
> >                         THE RATIONALE IS AS FOLLOWS:
> >
> >
> > 1) The peer-review process of scientific journals may take from many
> > months to over a year.
> >
> > 2) The review process is often arbitrary in nature.

>   It seems to me the advantage of the electronic medium is speed, and that's
> about the only important advantage.  But speed can also be a disadvantage:
> We want to produce a body of literature that the community of researchers
> can rely on for accuracy, logic, etc., and "speed" isn't the best means to
> that end.

> 
> -Ted Swift
I agree except that the most important advantage I see is that of fast
easy access.
-- 
Gary Copeland
*

NI>From: niemotka@tetraprec.com
NI>Subject: Question from a mech. eng
NI>I am currently working on a project working with distance measurement
NI>using lasers, and was wondering if anyone could explain briefly how
NI>the "Total Station" survey equipment works.  All I know currently is
NI>that the "transit" sends out a continuous laser beam that sweeps out
NI>in a circular pattern, and the rod has a receiver target that the beam
NI>hits.....any further info would be appreciated.
Mike,
The situation you have described sounds like a total station which is
operated by the person holding the rod at the target.  There are several
types of total stations, some which operate remotely, and others which
are operated by an intrument person.
I am most familiar with Topcon instruments, which are operated by
an instrument person, and which measure distances using infrared light.
A beam of light is sent out from the instrument to the prism. This light
is sent with a frequency equal to the sine curve, reflected from the
prism back to the instrument.
The difference in wavelength (phase difference) is calculated by the
instrument, and the first signal which generally measures meters,
calculates the distance in meters. This process is repeated several
times, with each additional signal measuring sub-meter distances.  The
final distance is calculated by the instrument in meters and then
converted to feet, which is displayed on the instruments readout.
This is basically how an EDM works.  If you have further questions,
I can post additional information which would include more "text book"
information.
Hope this gives you some insight to your question.
Jason G. Racette
Eastern States Cadastral Survey
NI>Thanks,
NI>Mike Niemotka
NI>niemotka@tetraprec.com
---
 ž SLMR 2.1a ž "Honor lies in honest toil."  Grover Cleveland

>>I'm looking for a laser distance measuring module which outputs data 
either serially or via some other protocol. Does anyone know of such a
beast. If so please email the info. to the address below as well as to the
group since I don't usually monitor this group. Thanks. <<
The most cost effective solution is a handheld laser measuring device from
Leica. The DISTO accurately measures distances up to 330 ft (100m) away
with 1/8" accuracy (3 mm). It is also reflectorless...no prism is
necessary. Data can be transferred seamlessly to any number of platforms,
including handhelds, laptops, etc. through it's serial connection (RS232).
Hope this helps.
Bob Muscat
Leica Inc.

"Henry C. Francis"  wrote:
>> >Thomas S. Blue wrote:
>> 
>> ...more stuff.
>> 
>> 1) Have you ever used Eagle Point software? 
>YES!  I am very pleased with their product.  I especially like how it 
>will create the necessary drawings in Plan and Profile, replete with 
>XREFs.
...XREFs? (you mean Xsections?) - oh, you must be refering to those
advanced features I don't understand (can you say, "I can read an
ad"?)
...I didn't see you listed as a PE, RLS, or LA in NC in the official
registry. Do you provide contract drafting services?
>> They have sold software
>> which they ADMIT is crash-prone!
>It could be hardware related, TSRs, other software, etc.  I 
>discovered that my Diamond Stealth 64 w/ 4Mb ram will cause AutoCAD 
>to hang requiring a reboot if I invoke the Insert command from the text 
>screen (go figure).  Even if what you claim IS true, it is just as true 
>about AutoCAD and you know it!!!  You LOVE AutoCAD so you don't complain 
>about it.
...LOVE AutoCAD? - get real. I use AutoCAD, I love my family. (AutoCAD
is okay, but it has (IMHO) an outdated, inefficient GUI. It's coding
isn't the most efficient either (IMHO & others)). - I will continue to
use it though - and did you not "hear" me? - an Eagle Point
representative ADMITTED the software is crash-prone!
>Just face it, You have some sort of vindetta against Eagle 
>Point.
...vindetta? - use your spellcheck
>> That is my problem with them. This is
>> a misleading sales practice.
>Just how did they mislead you?
...If Eagle Point distributes a software package which is tied to
AutoCAD, they have a responsibility for the WHOLE package. The
purchase of AutoCAD (in this case) is tied to the purchase of Eagle
Point (is it not)? Have individuals not purchased AutoCAD in order to
use Eagle Point? Would these same people have purchased AutoCAD
without a civil/survey package? Do they inform potential buyers of
it's inherent instability? Don't corporations get sued (and generally
fair poorly in the suit) for withholding information about a product
which may damage or harm a buyer/user of that product?
>> A software investment may require a large
>> portion of available expenditures in a small firm. It is unfair
>> (unethical) to sell software knowing that it will crash on a regular,
>> random basis! Do you not agree?
>Sure, but are your sure it is not AutoCAD that is the source of the 
>problem.  Try this with DCA.  make a block with a visible, editable  
>attribute.  Insert the block in a DCA drawing.  Edit the attribute to 
>have more than 132 characters and then do a DCA "check points" on the 
>drawing.  It will crash every single time.  I am still waiting for DCA or 
>our dealer to call me back about this one.  Its been over a year now, I'm 
>very patient.  After the first follow up where I had to remind them I had 
>called before I thought I'd just wait and see how long it would take 
>them.  And YOU complain about Eagle Point technical assistance.
...am I supposed to complain about DCA tech support? Can you tell me
why? Are you being one-sided (couldn't be!)? AutoCAD with no overlays
attached (in DOS & WFW 3.11) has NEVER crashed on me that I can
remember (just lucky - or abducted and brainwashed - I guess). Eagle
Point (for AutoCAD) did regularly when I used it.
>I found their FREE technical help to be far superior to that of DCA.
...DCA? - you mean Softdesk? Are they different? either way, I haven't
used DCA technical support - when I used DCA v.10, it was so simple to
use I never called (though some might say it is outdated now). Again,
are YOU (no way, no way) being one sided.
>BTW, I solved this DCA problem myself.
...the joy of learning! I like learning. Learning is special.
>The valid string length in 
>AutoCAD is 256 characters.  DCA will choke on 133 characters EVERY SINGLE 
>TIME.  DCA KNOWS that their software will crash in a variety of 
>situations EVERY TIME but they WILL NOT tell you.  Is that the way you 
>like it?
Again, I would almost suspect a one-sided post (but since it is YOU, I
know better)!
>> I will not retract my (admittedly
>> severe - but true) critique of Eagle Point software for this reason
>> alone.
>If it was YOUR critque I would probably not have bothered.  It is the 
>one-sided clips from others which you used to bolster your own complaints 
>that bothered me.  You are obviously seeking vengance for some perceived 
>wrong that Eagle Point has done to you.  Sort of a terrorist approach I 
>think.
...vengance? - spellcheck that booger! - also, can you define "a
terrorist approach"? - I guess you saw right through my pitiful
attempt to conceal obvious collusion with the IRA, PKK, and (worst of
all) the IRS! (and all along I was trying to disguise myself as the
UNABOMBER - jinkies! if old man Kaczynski hadn't been caught, I would
have gotten away with it...) - it seems there have been more than a
few posts generally in line with my view (as all mail comments to me -
other than yours and a couple from Eagle Point - have been)
...critque - again, the spellcheck (said as a “SNL Bears/Bulls fan”
would)
>> If I designed a dam for you which would fail without warning,
>> should I not be held responsible and others not be informed of my
>> subadequate work (especially if I knew it would fail all along and did
>> not tell you)?
>We ARE talking about software here.
..so your defense of the product is that it is computer oriented? -
gee, I need to remember that the next time I board a plane (air
traffic control / wing stress analysis), a train (track switch
control), a car (stoplight control / brake system analysis), enter a
tall building (complex structural design / earthquake simulations),
have an operation (vital life functions monitoring), call 911 (GIS
assistance routing), or (for you) play a war game! - of course your
defense may center around land surveying being unimportant? - speaking
of implying "things" - since the software that surveyors use doesn't
need to be quality, are you saying land surveying practices don't need
to be quality? - gee, what a newsgroup to bring such an idea to light
on! I tend to think more of the surveying profession. - doubt I'm
alone here.
>The government does not see fit 
>to license software designers for the public good.
...just wait - they will license everything sooner or later!
>Did you even read the 
>license agreement?  They ALL have a disclaimer:
>DISCLAIMER. LISCENSE FEES FOR THIS SOFTWARE DO NOT INCLUDE ANY 
>CONSIDERATION FOR ASSUMPTION OF RISK BY ****, AND **** DISCLAIMS ANY AND 
>ALL LIABILITY FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING FROM THE 
>NEGLIGENCE OF **** OR ITS EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, CONSULTANTS OR 
>DEALERS, EVEN IF ANY OF THESE PARTIES HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
>POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.  FURTHERMORE, LICENSEE IMDEMNIFIES AND 
>AGREES TO HOLD **** HARMLESS FROM SUCH CLAIMS.  THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE 
>RESULTS AND PERFORMANCE OF THE SOFTWARE IS ASSUMED BY THE LICENSEE.
...LISCENSE (did they spellcheck?) - IMDEMNIFIES? (that’s a
“word-for-the-day” if I have ever seen one!)
>It is your responsibility to get results and performance from the 
>software.
...I guess I better start coding right away
>BTW,  in the original of the above **** is "SOFTDESK" (you 
>know, DCA).
...wow, you sneaky devil!
>> 2) The information on legal action came via a phone call from an Eagle
>> Point representative.
>Name him here and get his butt fired.
...and the rest of him? - Gee Fred, where's your butt? - (the names
have been changed to protect the innocent)
>If he did what you say I doubt he 
>was acting at Eagle Point's direction, but if he was he needs to be 
>exposed.  Otherwise, some folks like me might have reason not to believe 
>you.
...oh, yeah! (the following is a likely phone conversation):
Me: "Mr. Eagle Point, this is the guy who had been blasting your
software on the 'net, could you please fire one of your
vice-presidents for me?"
Eagle Point president: "Sure guy! We have been camped out by the
phones, waiting for YOUR call. The hounds have been salivating (we
haven't fed them in a week - in anticipation of your call). I'm glad
we can now release them. We've been wanting to get rid of that "idiot"
who was trying to protect our revenue stream. I'm so glad you called,
I think we'll simply close up shop for good now. With your request, my
life's purpose is now fulfilled!"
...or something like that.
*to sum it up: I would rather have a dependable Ford than a Jaguar
that's always in the shop.
+
  Thomas S. Blue - tsblue@longleaf.com - http://www.longleaf.com
  Environmental Consulting and Engineering
  PhD student - Civil Engineering & Soil Science
+

In advance, I'd like to ask you to excuse my ignorance in matters
of surveying and surveyor's equipment as I am merely a physicist who
USED to look inside his vacuum chamber using what I think is a telescope
from an old surveying instrument.  Unfortunately, the eyepiece fell out
last week and one of the lenses cracked.  I need to either repair or 
replace the telescope.  
The telescope is about 8 inches long, would focus on objects as close 
at approx 1.5 feet and had a magnification on the order of 30 x.  The
name "EBERBACH"	is etched on the side.  The eyepiece assembly could be
slid in and out to focus.  The eyepiece assembly is a brass tube about 2.5
inches long.  Slid in both ends of the brass tube are .75 inch brass
tubes, each with two optical elements threaded into either end (4 lenses
in total in the eyepiece assembly.)
	Does this sounds like a surveying telescope?
	Is anyone familiar with "EBERBACH"?
	Any suggestions for finding a replacement lens or finding 
	a similar instrument?
I have a fear that anything for surveying may be higher quality
than we need and hence be prohibitively expensive (although as
a reasearch lab, we are used to small things costing a lot.)
Does anyone have ideas for something that could be used for
looking at small samples ( .25 inch or less ) a few feet away?
Someone suggesting a rifle scope, but I assume that those won't focus
this close.
Thanks for any suggestions,
stuart
ps  If you could cc your posts to friedman@leland.stanford.edu, I'd 
appreciate it.

Kirk Kerekes wrote:
> Are all printed books readily available? No. Have some been lost forever?
> Yes. Does that mean that we should go back to memorization and
> calligraphy? I don't think so -- there is much better redundancy with
> printing, resulting in a higher percentage of survival.
> 
> Apply the same logic to printed matter VS the web -- redundancy leads to
> survival, and good stuff tends to get duplicated quickly on the net.
Agreed.  But that's not quite the issue I was bringing up.  A conference and a
journal issue are events that occur in time.  Even with a medium change, you
can (hopefully) find information from either of those by referencing the
event.  Using a URL is like referencing the library, not the event.  If the
URL is permanently associated with the paper, which doesn't make sense down
the road when things change (URL's change, storage mediums change), then it's
not a problem.  I was just looking for a way to permanently reference the
paper.  Perhaps if we approached the archive as a series of journals, give it
a permanent name, etc, and then use the dates, it may be better.
> How many 50-year-old academic papers have you _directly_ referenced?
Well, I can think of at least 2 greater than 50, and quite a few in the 25-30
years ago range, from my Master's thesis alone.  Some fundamental works will
be referenced for quite some time.
--
    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._         
     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  Chad English
     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'  cenglish@mae.carleton.ca
   _..`--'_..-_/  /--'_.' ,'       http://www.mae.carleton.ca/~cenglish
  (il).-''  (li).'  ((!.-'