Newsgroup sci.engr.surveying 3466

Directory

No doubt that conventional survey equipment could be used to layout or
locate whatever on the ice.  The most difficult part might be finding a
surveyor that can skate.
Yes, you can rent such equipment at various locations.  Drop me a line if
you need more info.

My neighbor and I each have a different certified survey of our respective
properties. The two surveys do not match. One survey puts the property line
three feet away from that indicated on the other survey.
How would the true property line be decided in a court of law? What would
the court look at in making the determination? Any comments would be
appreciated. 

In article <5542mf$ios_001@dcn.davis.ca.us>
jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame) wrote:
Jim-
The Dept. of Defense guarantees that over a period of 24 hours
in the same station, the selective availability will cancel itself.
However, you cannot get centimeter level accuracy with just a
GPS receiver because of the atmospheric conditions such as the
ionosphere which create distortions.
The level of accuracy is really a function of your GPS receiver and
your base station. For real time sub-meter accuracy, you would
require a differential GPS receiver.
********************************************************************
Error source:
-  Satellite clock error         -    2 feet
-  Receiver errors               -    4 feet
-  Ephemeris error              -    2 feet
-  Atmosphere/ionosphere  -  12 feet
********************************************************************
The sum which is multiplied by the PDOP (Position Dilution of
Precision).
A good GPS receiver, in best conditions and optimum satellite
conditions, can expect accuracy of 15 - 30 feet with the SA
disabled.
Source:
- Trimble: GPS A Guide to the Next Utility
I hope that answers your question Jim.
Regards,
Cindy Park
====================================================
Cindy Park                                                cindy@fieldworker.com
"If what you see it and where you see it is important in your
work, you need FieldWorker."
FieldWorker Products Ltd - http://www.fieldworker.com
Tel. + 416 483 3485
====================================================
> I spoke with someone today who stated that one can, with a single GPS 
> receiver (presumably of geodetic quality, but without access to PPS) 
> occupying a station for an extended period of time (8 hours or so), 
> obtain centimeter-level accuracy of position.  His basic contention is 
> that the effects of SA will tend to be self-cancelling over such an 
> observation period.
> 
> My grasp of GPS principles is pretty sketchy, but I was under the 
> impression that differential GPS was required to attain this level of 
> accuracy.  Would those of you with a stronger grounding in this field 
> care to comment?
> 
> TIA
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
> Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
> -----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------

Opinions please. I am a Community College Engineering Instructor. I
intend to purchase several total stations for college courses in
surveying. My feeling is that for student use, 10 second (or even 20
second) angular, and 1000ft. range, is plenty good. Even  construction
instruments would seem to be fine as long as they included data
collector capability. Does this sound reasonable? In your opinion, do
such instruments provide functionally equivalent training as compared to
full size/feature instruments? Could you recommend brands and models?
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks
Steve Klein

In article <01bbc816$42255840$072492cf@default>, "Edwin Fehre"
 writes:
>My neighbor and I each have a different certified survey of our
respective
>properties. The two surveys do not match. One survey puts the property
line
>three feet away from that indicated on the other survey.
>How would the true property line be decided in a court of law? What would
>the court look at in making the determination? Any comments would be
>appreciated. 
By posting this message you are apt to get as many different responses as
there are replies.  Here is my humble opinion.
Some of the first questions I would ask, just to find a starting point, is
where is the property located, in a subdivision, such as a planned unit
development, or is the property part of a larger tract which has had
portions of it sold at different times, such as a farmer selling off
differnt parts of his farm at different times.  Once that question has
been answered, there are several different options, but what is the common
thread, is what corners where used to originally establish your property.
Here is a commom example.  Suppose you lived in a subdivision where
twenty-five equal sized lots were created, shown on a single subdivision
plat, and your property was purchased based upon this plat.  When it came
time to relocate the corners of your property, it would be necessary to
locate the corners which originally created the exteriors of the
subdivision.  It is the location of these corners which were used in order
to establish the location of the corners within.
In addition to finding the original corners, it is necessary to find out
who has Junior-Senior rights.  Which tract had occupation first, you (and
your predecessors) or your neighbor (and his predecessors)?
These are just a couple of the topics which the Surveyor must look at in
order to begin his work.  Chances are, the surveyors who did the two
surveys did not used the same controlling corners.
You have a challenge ahead of you.  I'm sure there will be others who will
assit in explaining the surveying and legals aspects of your boundary
dispute, but this is just a starting point.  Best of luck.
Regards.
Jason G. Racette

Edwin Fehre wrote:
> 
> My neighbor and I each have a different certified survey of our respective
> properties. The two surveys do not match. One survey puts the property line
> three feet away from that indicated on the other survey.
> How would the true property line be decided in a court of law? What would
> the court look at in making the determination? Any comments would be
> appreciated.
The best thing to do is talk to the two surveyors and ask them how they
came to their conclusions. Sometimes the two of them can work out the
difference. It may be that they are both right and there are just
problems in one or both of the titles of the properties. It's best
though to see if the surveyors can work it out between them. They can
probably give you the best idea of what is going on and might have the
best and easiest suggestions as how to resolve the problem. This all
depends on how you and your neighbor get along and can reach and
agreement without a fight.

  One major problem which causes two adjoining surveys to disagree on the
location of the common line is each survey is based on a different
description.  The newest description may have been required to reflect the
altered location of the line.  Property owners have the right to move a
common line by agreement or one may permit the movement without specific
agreement.  This is called acquiesence.  Every mortgage contract has a
clause which requires the borrower to keep the boundaries in the place
called for in the description during the life of the mortgage.  It seems
silly to require a clause in a contract which reqwuires one party to
refrain from excercising a right that some attorneys say the landowner
does not have.  Especially when the kines may not have been in those
particular places when you purchased the property. 
  While most attorneys feel the calls in the description control the
location of the property lines, the usual application of common law
principles requires the boundaries to be controlled  by existing
monuments.  The surveyor is required to give effect to, that is recognize,
existing monumentation and correct the defective description so that no
existing boundary is ignored.
  The only time the sequence of recording the various deeds will control
is when the affected owners cannot agree between themselves and go to
court to get the line settled.  This is similar to killing a skunk with
your bare hands.  You probably can do it, but who in their right mind
would even try?
  Get your neighbor, yourself and a competent surveyor together and have a
correct record made of the location upon which you and your neighbor can
agree.
You will have to notify the mortgagee if the description changes, but if
the line that existed at the time you bought the property is the one you
choose, and that can be documented; the mortgagee can hardly object.  I
don't mean they won't object, just that it is hard to prove that the
change in the description affected the value of the property.
  Go to the Legal Information Net here on AOL, and download the file
Surveyors.txt from their library.  It was uploaded in July, 1995.  This
may help you understand the surveyors responsibility.  Keyword:  LIN.
rschaut@aol
rschaut@aol.com

Thank you all for your replies. They have all been extremely helpful.
One observation I have is that the two surveys are using different
directional lines to define the front street and the property boundaries.
One survey, the older one (1939) shows the boundary at N 46 deg 48 min
while the other, recent (1996) survey shows it at N 45 deg 40 min 45 sec.
Apparently the starting point for both surveys is the same.
Would my survey, the older one, still be valid, or could the directional
lines somehow have been changed through some sort of legal action, without
my having been informed?
There is an old iron pipe in the back yard which marks the property corner
according to my survey. How much weight would be given to the validity of
this marker in making a determination? The pipe is not very firmly fixed,
but I'm sure it is in its original position.
Another question, how much accuracy could be expected, using instruments of
60 year ago, in marking a point 178 feet away through brush and trees? Even
if an error was made on my old survey, could the property line that has
been in existence for 60 years be declared invalid? My neighbors came about
25 years ago, but my family has been here for over 50 years. Until
recently, there was never anything mentioned about the position of the
property line.
By the way, I do not wish to take this matter to court, but my neighbors
are planning to build a 12 foot high, 207 foot long poured concrete
retaining wall five feet from my house. They want to backfill to raise the
level of their property 12 feet above mine. The saga promises to acquire
soap-opera proportions. More to follow.

Bonjour aux arpenteurs-géomètres du Québec,
Si vous avez participé à la formation continue de l'OAGQ sur
le nouveau cadastre québécois le 1er novembre dernier, et que vous avez
des questions sur le sujet qui y était traité, écrivez-les moi et je
les ferai suivre au formateur concerné.
Les questions et réponses obtenues seront publiées dans ce forum.
Salutations, Luc St-Pierre, a.-g.

the sig url has been updated to reflect among many other things, 
the new online presence of three state associations, and
federal creation of the new National Imagery and Mapping Agency.
If you know of additional references which you'd like to see at this
fine reference site, please drop me a note.
```Maynard Riley    PLS     Northeast  Illinois USA
```On-Line Resources for Land Surveying & Geomatics
```http://homepage.interaccess.com/~maynard/index.html

We are going to purchase an ink jet plotter in the next few weeks,and
I was wondering if anyone would pass along their recommendations and
experiences. Our priorities are:
1) Quality of output. The most important thing here is to avoidance of
aliasing, those jagged stair step lines when a line is not precisely
horizontal or vertical.
2) Reliability. We live 200 km from the nearest service centre and
can't afford to have our plotter down for long periods of time.
3) Availability of materials. It is better for us if several suppliers
carry ink cartridges and print heads and so on, so that if one is out
of stock another might have them on hand.
4) Support for both AutoCAD and Windows. We expect to use the plotter
for charts and so on for other departments.
5) Ease of use. It is possible that others might need to use it when
we are out in the field, and we might not have time to train them
properly.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Greg Burgess
Survey Technologist
Special Areas Board
Hanna, Alberta