Newsgroup sci.environment 104534

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> 
> Refer to one of the last print issues of OMNI Magazine (now totally electronic) that purported to show
> the 'ban' on freon coincideted with the expiration of the patents.
> 
> Only 3 companies are approved for replacements. Does this sound like the 1920's and 30's?
> 
Approved for replacements???,, such a sinister sounding phrase.  Pray
tell, who is they who "approved" a company to produce a certain company.
Did big bad government, overnight and without alerting the media, seize
the ability to tell the american (and world) manufactoring community
what they could and could not produce.  Or are you saying that
technology to
produce the HCFC is licensed to only a few. How many companies made
CFC's
in this country?  I can only think of three, but there may be more,
I thought Elf Atochem had the largest share of market, but I could be
wrong.
I hate to tell ya this sony boy, but there just aint that many players
in the Organic Chemical Manufactoring business.

In article 
           mew@world.std.com "Michael E Willett" writes:
>They have a new entrepreneur recycling WWW site for
>CK Industries now on this big WWW mall:
	What is entrepreneur recycling: sounds like something out of 
a horror movie
>
>http://www.anewnet.com
>
>M Willett
>Storage Computer
>http://www.storage.com/
>
-- 
Alex Kashko BSc, MSc, PhD: Edinburgh writer, translator multimedia designer
http://members.tripod.com/~Kashko/writer.htm - Writing
http://members.tripod.com/~Kashko/multimedia.htm - multimedia
Life Plus Nutrition: Easy Proven Ground Floor Opportunity. No selling
Email wplus@galdr.demon.co.uk Life Plus ID#333-000

In article <3245BCC6.50E@ids2.idsonline.com> ypark@ids2.idsonline.com writes:
>
>Well the Wint-o-green effect is actually called.. oh what was it called,
>something about sparking.. like scintillation (sp?) or something like
>that.  I think it's caused because the crystal structure / chemical
>bonds within the crystals are being forcibly broken -> therefore release
>of energy, in this case in the form of light.
>
	Tribo-luminescence.
	[no... really]

     Last week, an environmental story made the front page of the Gazette
Telegraph, the Colorado Springs, Colorado daily newspaper.
     The wells for the Paint Pony subdivision north of Woodland Park, in
Teller County, are contaminated with the pesticide ethylene dibromide, at
levels about five times the allowable maximum.
     The reason the story made the front page was, that both state and
local officials have known about the contamination for two years, but until
last week, nobody bothered telling the affected residents about it.
     According to a subsequent story in the September 22 Denver Post
(Section B), the wells have been closed, and when local and state officials
have taken time out from pointing fingers at each other, they've been
making tests to track the pollution plume in the soil, and to try and
figure out its point of origin.

v. (scalo@scsu.ctstateu.edu) wrote:
: I was reading my text (Enviromental Chemistry by Colin Baird) and it
: states " ultraviolet light having wavelenghts shorter than 120 nm is
: filtered in and above the stratosphere by 02 and other constituents of
: air such as N2"
: I wanted to know why diatomic nitrogen is not really mentioned when we
: speak of the ozone hole. How much N2 is in the ozone layer and how much
: and what type of radiation does it shield(filter)?
: please email responses to:
: scalo@scsu.ctstateu.edu
: Thank you
The percentage of nitrogen molecules in the stratosphere is the same as
in the stuff you are inhaling (about 80% as I recall), however 
for all practical purposes nitrogen is inert in the troposphere
(where you are breathing it) and in the stratosphere.  It is only in
the very highest part of the atmosphere, well above the ozone layer,
that nitrogen chemistry plays an active role.  
The N-N bond in nitrogen molecules is very strong, and nitrogen
is, by itself non-reactive, at least with the type of molecules
found in the atmosphere.  However, if you can break the bond,
N atoms are very reactive, and there are metastable states
with lots of energy that can be excited.  But such light
is not available in the ozone layer.
This is because light whose wavelength is shorter than 120 nm only
penetrates a very short way into the atmosphere.  The absorption of
light by oxygen is very strong at wavelengths shorter than 190 nm,
(there is a small region around 120 nm where the absorption is
a bit weaker, but that#s another story).
For more information you might want to look at Herzberg's Molecular
Structure and Molecular Spectroscopy I. Diatomic Molecules
josh Halpern.

Ric Fraser wrote:
> 
> eighner@io.com (Lars Eighner) wrote:
> 
> >>Barium Titanate,  Lithium Niobate,  Quartz (some
> >>cuts),  and many poled ceramics.
> >>Just to name a few.
> >Earlier in this thread someone mentioned the
> >Wint-o-green Lifesavers effect.
> >The Wint-o-green effect is very real and easy
> >to demonstrate, but is it an example of
> >the piezoeelectric effect?  Has anyone
> >determined what causes the Wint-o-green effect?
Well the Wint-o-green effect is actually called.. oh what was it called,
something about sparking.. like scintillation (sp?) or something like
that.  I think it's caused because the crystal structure / chemical
bonds within the crystals are being forcibly broken -> therefore release
of energy, in this case in the form of light.
Danny Park
dpark@tjhsst.edu
http://www.tjhsst.edu/~dpark/

It's almost always a safe bet to guess that any sci.energy/sci.env
cross-post is part of a thread about nuclear power.  I'm an environmentalist
who has heard more than enough of both nuclear power attack and defense
to last a good long while -- shall we start on coal for a change? :-)
Let's see, I guess that I'm supposed to start this by making lots
of claims that the defenders of the industry can try to argue against.
Coal is responsible for an interesting range of environmental problems
on many different scales, from the rather long (global climate change),
to medium (acid precipitation) to short/personal (black lung disease among
miners, other local pollution effects).  Secondary effects include
habitat destruction through mining operations.  There is also
concern among grass-roots U.S. types about the way coal rights
are given out under private property, causing subsidence and resulting
damage to homes. 
Any takers?
--
sci.environment FAQs & critiques - http://www.mnsinc.com/richp/sci_env.html

Note trimmed newsgroups line.  Follow up set to sci.environment
In a comment on ...
    Henry F. Diaz  &  Nicholas E. Graham,   Recent changes in
       tropical freezing heights and the role of sea surface
       temperature.   Nature 383 (12 September 1996), 152-155
... Hugh Easton  (hugh@daflight.demon.co.uk)  included
    in   <843255611snz@daflight.demon.co.uk>:
  [...]
> Partly because of the total absence of warming right where
> climatologists expect it to be strongest, a lot of people are
> highly skeptical of climate models and the predictions of
> climatologists in general.  In light of new evidence - a paper
> just published in the journal Nature - it now looks like that
> skepticism is well founded:
Yeah, bash the models :)    Especially as a significant part
of the enlightening new evidence presented by Diaz and Graham
consists of results from those dubious climate models.   To be
specific, they employed the ECHAM2 and ECHAM3 models of the
Max Planck Institute for Meteorology at Hamburg.
  [...]
> In other words, the rise in tropical ocean temperatures is almost
> certainly due to global warming.
Says Hugh Easton.   Diaz and Graham say on page 155:
"Whether this recent increase is natural, anthropogenic,
or both, remains an open question."   They are not alone
with this opinion [1, p 165] [2].
> Since there is no warming in polar regions, the actual
> pattern that global warming is following is completely
> the opposite of what climate models predict.
As far as the available surface data go, the strongest surface
warming during the past decades occurred over northern North
America and northern Siberia [1, p 144-145].  For Antarctica
data are gappy, though at least one region, the Antarctic
Peninsula, has warmed [3].
The Kahl et al. quoted by Easton, while important, addresses
only the high Arctic [4].  By the way, there is some evidence
to suggest that human-made sulfate aerosols may interfer with
high Arctic warming [5].
> If they are so wrong about something as fundamental as that,
> their predictions for future climate are hardly likely to be
> accurate!
Whereas Hugh Easton's precise reporting is exemplary  :)
For context, Diaz and Graham address the long-known
"unruly behavior" of El Nino-Southern Oscillation since
about 1976/77, which, among others, entailed a  -  few tenths
of a degree C  -  rise of average tropical sea surface
temperatures [1, p 138, 155, 165] [2].  Specifically, Diaz
and Graham looked into possible effects at higher elevations,
including the snow line.  Interesting work.
  [1]  N. Nicholls,  G.V. Gruza,  J. Jouzel,  T.R. Karl,
       L.A. Ogallo,  D.E. Parker,   Observed climate variability
       and change.   Pages 133-192 in:
          Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change.
          J.T. Houghton et al., eds,  Cambridge University Press 1996
  [2]  Gerald A. Meehl  and  Warren M. Washington,  El Nino-like
       climate change in a model with increased atmospheric CO2
       concentrations.   Nature 382 (4 July 1996), 56-60
  [3]  D.G. Vaughan  &  C.S.M. Doake,  Recent atmospheric warming
       and retreat of ice shelves on the Antarctic Peninsula.
       Nature 379 (25 January 1996), 328-331
  [4]  Jonathan D. Kahl,  Donna J. Charlevoix,  Nina A. Zaitseva,
       Russell C. Schnell  &  Mark C. Serreze,   Absence of evidence
       for greenhouse warming over the Arctic Ocean in the past
       40 years.  Nature 361 (1993), 335-337
       John E. Walsh,  The elusive Arctic warming,  ibid. 300-301
  [5]  Jean-Pierre Blanchet,  Eric Girard,  Arctic `greenhouse effect'.
       Nature 371 (1994), 383
       John Mitchell, Nature 379 (11 Jan 1996), 109   [Correspondence,
       refers to a paper in Journal of Climate 8 (1995), 2364-2386]
Again, cheers for a while.
Jan Schloerer
jschloer@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de

Daniel Yates wrote:
> 
> I wonder if anybody could give me some definitions for the following:
> 
>         Inter-generational Equity
>         Trans-boundary pollution
In general terms, inter-generational equity is the distribution of costs
or benefits between current and future generations:  e.g. how much
should the present generation pay today to avoid costs acruing to future
generations.  Trans-boundary pollution is a problem where the source of
pollution and the sink are geographically separated into diffierent
political or administrative jurisdictions:  e.g. factories in
Pennsylvania causing acid rain in New York.  A good source for more
detail would be Volume III of _Climate Change 1995_, where these
concepts are discussed at length in the context of global climate
change.
-dl

TL ADAMS  wrote:
>> 
>> Refer to one of the last print issues of OMNI Magazine (now totally electronic) that purported to show
>> the 'ban' on freon coincideted with the expiration of the patents.
Adams deleted the references and my site has expired the original article.
This is just another half-baked conspiracy theory, and it
doesn't even take half a brain to debunk it.  Freons were made
in the 30's or so; refrigerators were certainly consumer items
in the post-war period.  The patents had expired before the 60's,
long before ozone depletion was an issue in politics.
Before I stopped reading it over ten years ago, OMNI had already
degenerated into the Weekly World News of science fiction magazines.
If they are putting tripe such as this trivially refuted conspiracy
theory into any form of print, they have only gotten worse.  My
advice is, do not read it.  Do not give them the ad revenue, do
not give them the encouragement.  Stand up for quality.

TL ADAMS  wrote:
>> 
>> Refer to one of the last print issues of OMNI Magazine (now totally electronic) that purported to show
>> the 'ban' on freon coincideted with the expiration of the patents.
Adams deleted the references and my site has expired the original article.
This is just another half-baked conspiracy theory, and it
doesn't even take half a brain to debunk it.  Freons were made
in the 30's or so; refrigerators were certainly consumer items
in the post-war period.  The patents had expired before the 60's,
long before ozone depletion was an issue in politics.
Before I stopped reading it over ten years ago, OMNI had already
degenerated into the Weekly World News of science fiction magazines.
If they are putting tripe such as this trivially refuted conspiracy
theory into any form of print, they have only gotten worse.  My
advice is, do not read it.  Do not give them the ad revenue, do
not give them the encouragement.  Stand up for quality.

Steinn Sigurdsson (steinn@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis) writes:
:  
: > is largely based on an instance of this. However, a very rapid ramp does
: > not constitute a high frequency input in any system I am, aware of -
: > rather it consists of a very broad spectrum of input frequencies,
: > including the lowest. In other words, a sudden shift in a system's
: > input excites *all* its free modes. A little review exercise taking
: > the Fourier series approximation to a step may clarify this for you.
: Tsk. Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
Heh. I was trolling a bit. Let me acknowledge to the readership what
both Steinn and myself know - that he is a stronger mathematician than 
myself. Nevertheless, I think his arguments here are moot.
I'll respond at length after due consideration. For now, let me state that
any egg-sucking instruction was aimed at  the general readership, and not at
my granmother in particular.
mt

someone wrote:
> 
> allen  wrote:
[stuff snipped]
> > ........................ (It is reasonable to ask the magnitude
> >of the problem, and compare it with the cost; to ask the cost of
> >alternatives; and to ask about unintended consequences of the
> >proposed solution.)
> 
> The proposed solution is to just delead everything.  Starting with
> multifamilies and then singles .  It should be noted that 30 percent of
> the elevated levels are now from owner occupied single family residences.
> Another interesting fact in Massachusetts is :   1.7 children out of 1000
> have elevated levels.   Is it really needed to delead 998.3 housing units
> when this is not a problem ?
I can't speak to the "proposed solution" because I'm not sure who is 
proposing it and for what jurisdiction. The best long-term solution is 
may be in fact to "delead" everything, but there are inexpensive measures 
that can greatly reduce lead risks. 
Either way though, compare the costs with the costs associated with 
treating lead poisoned children who often become developmentally disabled. 
Each lead poisoned child costs on average in excess of $100,000 over the 
child's lifetime for medical and additional special education costs. Also 
keep in mind that in most jurisdictions, the majority of children aren't 
even being tested for lead poisoning, so the rate reported is probably very 
low. In Baltimore, where I live, there were more than 10,000 cases of lead 
poisoning reported last year, and fewer than half of the kids potentially 
at risk were even tested.
>  A healthy diet and parental supervision would probably be
> more beneficial to the little ones.
In a home with badly deteriorating lead paint, a healthy diet and all the 
supervision in the world will still not prevent a child from being 
poisoned. A daily exposure to lead dust the equivalent of several grains of 
sugar is enough to elevate blood lead levels. Normal hand-to-mouth activity 
of infants and toddlers easily can lead to ingestion of these amounts. 
Those arguing about "how much dirt a child has to eat" should keep this in 
mind. 
>  We also have to remember that after
> the deleading process the residents' levels go up.  ( I believe it's
> Michigan that has actually stopped deleading as they realized it wasn't
> worth while to kick all this leaded dust up into everyone's atmosphere. )
> So is it really worth it to disturb several layers of intact non-leaded
> paint covering a layer of formerly goverment approved leaded paint and
> stir it up ?
This is a very important point. During the abatement process, it is 
extremely important to remove the children from where the work is being 
done. It is also important that the work be done by people who know what 
they are doing -- typically specially trained and licensed abatement 
contractors. And it is important that the work area be cleaned up correctly 
when it is completed. 
> From an environmental point of view: I still ask : where on earth are we
> going to put all this projected deleaded trash? 
Proper disposal in reasonably regulated landfills will keep the lead 
hazards out of the environment.
> Sadly enough, we are looking at 75 percent
> of the housing in this country going through this process because we
> don't know or care how to keep a clean household  ;-(
Only housing built before 1978 will potentially have lead paint. Housing 
built before 1950 will probably have lead paint. (But, I don't think this 
accounts for 75% of the country's housing.) Nevertheless, just keeping a 
clean household is no guarantee against lead poisoning. If lead paint is 
chipping, flaking, peeling or otherwise deteriorating, it may still put a 
child at risk.
terry.harris@jhuapl.edu
my opinions, not necessarily my employer's

Thus said 2bits@wco.com (Todd O.):
>On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:45:05 -0500 (EST), "Marc VanHeyningen"
>> Several of Washington State's San Juan Islands already have this status
>> and have for a while.  Giving Alcatraz this status probably would serve
>> mainly to convince people that protected areas are chosen not on the
>> basis of sensitive ecosystems deserving protection but for publicity.
>
>Vandeman's suggestion is absurd.  If you back up a couple of posts, this
>is what about what he is trying to accomplish in the way of pure habitat
>(before he let us know that Alcatraz is where he wanted to start):
> [ ... ]
Yes, I know.  Never the less, the core of the idea, an area where human
presence is prohibited in order to preserve pure habitat, is not
necessarily absurd.  His claim that there currently exist no such places
is simply wrong, and trying to remove maps of an area is just silly.
Even these places will probably have a controlled and heavily restricted
human presence on occasion to monitor and study that which they're
attempting to protect.
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen  

:>>Read Discover Magazine August 1996......
:>
:>I did. There was no data. Claims of the manufacturer/inventor are not
:>data. Only prototypes were involved. We need data supprting the claim
:>for mass production items (and I mean *mass*, productioin, wiht 16 of
:>the things in every car).
Then why don't you wait for the test result?  Don't tell me that you miss the
part that they are going to test the thing in a extaustive test....
===========================================================
David Wei              E-Mail Address: davidwei@uvic.ca
            NEW!!! WWW Page:  http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team  OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================

Does anyone know a newsgroup where I can look to find jobs in
environmental
companies? 
thanks

Hal Phillips wrote:
> goldcup wrote:
> > >
> > >Full book list and worldwide tour details available
> 
>    Anus.
Perhaps, but, seeing as he got at least two responses, a laughing anus.
(For each person who flamed him, how many people bought in?)
-- 
J. Calvin "Bimp" Smith        ___    Hello. I'm Bimp.
bimp@ix.netcom.com           /O_O\ _ I am not a Uniform Resource
http://home.aol.com/jcsbimp  \_=_/   Locator.  In fact, Mom says I
                              | |    dislocate my resources uni-
                                     formly.  (Sigh.)
                                     I'll say more later.

Research on neonatal laboratory animals are very limited because of
the size of neolatal animals. Capnometer is a device which measures
end-tidal CO2 (correlated to arterial pCO2) and N2O along with ventilation
frequency. We developed a MICRO-CAPNOMETER which can measure
accurately end-tidal CO2 in a wide range of animals including mice and
neonatal rats (from 6 days old). The device utilizes low air sample flow
rates(5,20 ml/min.)and the measurement is based on low pressure-high
velocity principle and analyzes the gas sample with infra-red gas sensor
technology. It has also the capabilities of determining the respiration rate
by counting the period from the wave pattern of CO2 concentration. Analog
outputs make it possible to record %CO2 and %N2O waveforms on the
chart recorder. Optional RS-232 interface and software allows connection
and display of CO2 and N2O waveforms on IBM-PC compatible computers.
If you are interested in receiving more information about this instrument, please
e-mail  your postal address.
GHOSH

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
> 
> Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> > 
> > On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:07:11 GMT, dat@bantam.demon.co.uk (Danny
> > Thompson) wrote:
> > 
> > >Frequently the faeces will contain the egg of the Toxacara 
Roundworm.
> > >This can easily get into the bloodstream through cuts and grazes or 
by
> > >ingestion through poor hygene.  The eggs can be transported on the
> > >soles of shoes into your house.
> > >
> > 
> > Is anything actually being done to get rid of these pests (The 
worms,
> > that is, not the dogs). We keep hearing about this, mostly from
> > anti-dog people, but surely a parasite like this is treatable.
> 
> Of course it's treatable, but prevention is better than cure. The best
> way to avoid it is to keep dog shit away from places where people 
might
> tread in it.
> 
> I'm not anti-dog, I'm anti people who think their dog has a right to
> crap in public places. If you don't have a garden of your own for your
> dog to excercise and crap in, you shouldn't have a dog. That's not
> anti-dog, it's pro-dog and anti-cruelty.
> 
> Mark Goodge
 Treatment, however, is far from easy and not always successful. 
Mebendazole is the drug of choice, but is usually supplemented with 
steroids to reduce the inflammatory response. The most effective method 
of control is to regularly deworm the animals. The chance of infection 
is particularly high in small children, which are not only highly 
susceptible, but prone to putting objects in their mouths. In addition 
young children are also known to be predisposed to eating soil. 
The disease is usually acquired by ingesting of soil contaminated with 
eggs. This may be from a number of routes such as food contaminated with 
feces, contaminated water, or gastric reflux in tapeworm carriers.
Pet owners should be informed about intestinal parasites and their 
effects on the health of pets and people. Pet owner education should 
provide the following information:
•Types of intestinal helminths that infect dogs and cats, and the 
illnesses they cause in these pets.
•How intestinal helminths are transmitted to dogs and cats, with special 
emphasis on helminths acquired through prenatal (T. canis) and 
transmammary (A. caninum, T. cati and, to a limited degree, T. canis) 
routes.
•How ascarids and hookworms can cause problems in humans, especially 
children, whose play habits and attraction to pets put them at increased 
risk.
•How infection in both pets and people can be prevented by well-timed 
prophylactic anthelmintic treatment of pups and kittens and routine 
diagnostic examinations or periodic preventive treatment of older pets.
•How to collect and dispose of pets' feces, especially in areas where 
children play.
•How to keep children away from areas that may be contaminated by dogs or 
cats infected with helminths.
The problem is primarily one of how to treat ALL dogs (and cats) at 
roughly the same time to prevent other dogs (and cats) becoming infected 
or re-infected, this is an impossible task. In my experience I have only 
known one success in completely eradicating a particular parasite from 
the population (human, dogs, and sheep) and this involved the banning of 
all dogs except working dogs, the deworming of all dogs on the same day 
twice a year, the banning of use of all sheep offal for any purpose - and 
it still took six years for this regime to work. Needless to say this 
happened in a very small, very isolated islnd community.

In message  - hatunen@netcom.com (DaveHatunen)
writes:
:>>Ah, you need to check out US Patent 5,000,000. a Bio patent that creates a
:>>bacteria that converts cellious into Ethanol. so you can just throw straws in
:>>and out comes "Straw Wiskey".
:>
:>When the subject is "grain based alcohol", I don't need to check out
:>any such thing.
The product is identical, so what's your point?  Grain based, potato based,
fruit based, or straw based, they are ALL ETHANOL.
===========================================================
David Wei              E-Mail Address: davidwei@uvic.ca
            NEW!!! WWW Page:  http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team  OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Lick 'em.  Lick 'em  REAL GOOD.
Todd

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
  I replied to Don Borowski (borowski@spk.hp.com) in sci.energy.
  Bob Bruhns, WA3WDR, bbruhns@li.net
Don wrote (in part):
: And those comic-book reactor managers have a safety record which
: is the envy of the rest of the power generation industry.

In article <3246ab0a.71583726@nntp.st.usm.edu>, Harold Brashears
 writes
>Nick Eyre  wrote for all to see:
>
>
>[deleted]
>
>>>
>>>You are welcome.  What journal?
>>
>>Energy Policy.
>
>I will repeat the rest of the question: If you know what a peer review
>consists of, in what way is this government funded report similar?
>
I thought we had been through all this before:
1. It is not Govt funded in the normal sense - being funded through UNEP
and the WMO, both of which are supported by a wide range of Govts with
different views.  Even if it was, lots of Govt funded research is
published in peer reviewed articles, so your obsession with public
funding is irrelevant.
2. It was reviewed by a huge range of people, largely in their own time
and without Govt support or interference.
3. The comments of individual reviewers were not published.  
4. The review comments were reflected in the final report. 
-- 
Nick Eyre

In article <3246abbb.71760680@nntp.st.usm.edu>, Harold Brashears
 writes
>Nick Eyre  wrote for all to see:
>
>>In article <3245b25d.7913087@nntp.st.usm.edu>, Harold Brashears
>> writes
>>
>>>Since the government supports many more of these researchers, why do
>>>you single out business.  I would think you would be inclined to say
>>>"that is why government is so powerful", since most of this research
>>>is supported by the government.
>>
>>You seem to think Government is immune from all business influence.
>>This is implausible, certainly in both your country and mine.
>
>I am sorry if I gave that impression, I cannot imagine how.  I was
>commenting on the relative power of government and business.  In the
>US, government spends a Billion dollars every six hours, 24 hours a
>day and 6 days a week.  If that is not power superior to any
>corporation, I would have difficulty definig it.  
1. Business spends even more!
2. Governments are elected!
>
>As for the UK, I was recently readin a biography of a UK government
>official, and was so struck by one comment I remember it til this day.
>The comment, from one high official to another was, "There is no way
>we can do this unless we raise the price of prescription drugs by 5%".
>Now that is power!  One group of officials, sitting in an office, and
>deciding how much the whole country will pay for their prescriptions!
>Irrespective of the manufacturer, the demand, any substitutes, and the
>consumer, no way!  I don't care if your drugs are cheaper, that is
>still raw power.
Of course socialised medicine places more power in the hands of elected
Govts and less in those of the drug companies - that is the point.  And
it gives us a better health service than you have for much less money.
>
>>>The IPPC report is simply the last in a series of reports, each has
>>>generally had a smaller and smaller prediction of temperature
>>>increases.  I see no reason to believe that has stopped.  
>>
>>I have already pointed out that this is a bad argument for continuing to
>>pollute.  IPCC estimates of climate sensitivity are unchanged.  
>
>From what?  There are several.  If you stated which, I am sorry, I
>missed it.
From 1990 to 92 to 95 assessments.
>
>>It is
>>scenarios for emissions which have been reduced, but this is because
>>more people are recognising the case for reducing emissions, not because
>>the science has changed.  Of course there is less risk if emissions are
>>reduced - that is precisely the case for doing it.
>>
>>>The IPPC
>>>report says 0.5 to 3 C in 100 years.  To me, this does not constitute
>>>an emergency.
>>
>>No, but it might seem different if you lived in Bangladesh.
>
>But I do not, nor do you.  I don't live in Holland either.  If you are
>assuming that 0.5 C will cause an increase in the level of the sea,
>sufficient to drown Bangladesh, I have not seen how that conclusion
>was arrived at.  Was it in the IPPC report?
Basing international policy on where you happen to live is individualism
gone mad.  IPCC does consider the effect "Climate change clearly will
increase vulnerability to flooding and erotional land loss.  estimates
put about 46 million people per year at risk......a 50 cm sea level rise
would increase this number to 92 million...."  For full quote see WGII
report p9.
-- 
Nick Eyre

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Bob Bruhns (bbruhns@newshost.li.net) wrote:
:   OK, I have spent enough time arguing with nuclear industry goons.
: I have separated my followups and responded in this group as
: appropriate, but now I will return to the sci.environment group where
: I got involved with this cross-posted thread in the first place, and
: my responses to threads appearing there, will appear there.
Read this as, "I got my ass spanked by knowledgable people and am running 
back to Mommy."
Name calling and baseless claims win an arguement every time, right Bob.
tooie

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Bob Bruhns (bbruhns@newshost.li.net) wrote:
: 
:<"complacency" thread snipped>
:
:   The US nuclear industry has already done an excellent job of
: demonstrating that nuclear power is not safe in their hands.
: 
Apparently Bob can't demonstrate that nuclear power is unsafe so he must 
resort to empty rhetoric to "support" his claims.
You still have yet to offer any answers to questions that enquiring minds 
want to know, such as:
*What are your alternatives to nuclear power?
*What's your defintion of safe?
	*Do you consider driving a car safe?
	*How about eating a charcoal grilled steak?
	*Flying in a plane?
	*Eating peanut butter?
	*Living in an area that is high in air pollution?
*How has nuclear power adversely affected the public/environment?
Your complacency arguement shows how little you know about the nuclear 
industry.  A plant that received a SALP 1 five years ago and has had made no 
improvements since then may find itself on the watch list today.  I know 
TMI-2 happened in 79 but this 96, try to catch up.
tooie 

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
In <9157cc$7270.3d4@HERMES> B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton)
writes: 
>
>charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew) wrote:
>>It is becoming obvious to me at this point that some of these 
>>environmental groups are more interested in dismantling U.S. 
>>industry than in limiting emissions. 
>
>Well, you're entitled to your perception, but the harsh reality
>is that both the science of climate change and the Rio 
>convention are also under attack from a industry group that
>comprises of coal, oil, utility, automobile and chemical 
>companies ( the Global Climate Coalition ). 
These two observations are entirely consistent with
each other... the industry attacks those who attack it.

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:07:11 GMT, dat@bantam.demon.co.uk (Danny
Thompson) wrote:
>Frequently the faeces will contain the egg of the Toxacara Roundworm.
>This can easily get into the bloodstream through cuts and grazes or by
>ingestion through poor hygene.  The eggs can be transported on the
>soles of shoes into your house.  
>
Is anything actually being done to get rid of these pests (The worms,
that is, not the dogs). We keep hearing about this, mostly from
anti-dog people, but surely a parasite like this is treatable.
---------------------------------+----------------------------------
I was born weird:  This terrible | Like Pavlov's dogs we are trained
compulsion to behave normally is | to salivate at the sound of the
the result of childhood trauma.  | liberty bell.
---------------------------------+----------------------------------
Malcolm

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Magnus Redin (redin@lysator.liu.se) writes:
> It still makes me uneasy, it sounds like something that should be
> avoided. I have heard this kind of issues were one of the reasons
> heavy water moderated PWR:s were abandoned in sweden in favor of
> BWR:s. 
If this were really one of the reasons it's a bit hypocritical.  BWR's
have a strongly negative void coefficient; therefore, they require a
safety system that can handle large void collapse (inducing positive
reactivity).  It's not the sign that's of utmost importance; it's the
magnitude.
--
Jeremy Whitlock
cz725@freenet.carleton.ca
Visit "The Canadian Nuclear FAQ" at http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~cz725/

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
In article <521m09$2eq@taurus.adnc.com> lisagman@adnc.com (Lisa Silverman) writes:
>Path: news.CT.NET!news.utelfla.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!taurus!news
>From: lisagman@adnc.com (Lisa Silverman)
>Newsgroups: sci.environment
>Subject: Wetlands Conservation Fight
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:29:00 GMT
>Organization: adnc.com
>Lines: 35
>Message-ID: <521m09$2eq@taurus.adnc.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.251.234.145
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
FLORIDA NEEDS HELP IN EVERGLADES AND IN SEBRING,FL
>Dr. Barry Kort  lives in a Condominium located along the flowage of
>the Shawsheen River in Bedford
>Massachussets. The land alongside the river include Wetlands and
>Conservation Lands owned by
>the Town of Bedford and protected by the Bedford Conservation ByLaws
>and by the Wetlands
>Protection Act. Some Unit Owners decided to build a golf course on
>this land, and did so without
>notification to the Town, without approval from the Planning Board and
>Conservation Commission,
>and without approval of the remaining Unit Owners. The Trustees of
>Bedfordshire then assumed the
>cost of maintaining the golf course and rolled the expenses into the
>annual budget. 
>Dr. Kort  protested the invasion and conversion of the Wetlands and
>Conservation Lands for the
>construction of an unapproved golf course, and refused to pay for it.
>The Trustees then filed a
>lawsuit in Superior Court, seeking an order to sell his condo. Dr.
>Kort counter-sued the
>Trustees, alleging willful breach of trust and exceeding their lawful
>authority. You can read the
>pleadings in the case at
>http://www.musenet.org/~bkort/bedfordshire.html and send messages of
>support to Dr. Kort at moulton@musenet.org 
>If the Trustees win the case, Dr. Kort  will lose his condo and be
>forced to move away. Your letters of support will be forwarded to the
>Trustees, with copies to town officials and to the local newspaper. If
>you give your permission, they may also be reposted on the the Web
>pages here. 

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
In article <51tsdo$7b@med20.crosfield.co.uk>, John Kirk
 writes
>In article <32412a0f.4341589@pubnews.demon.co.uk>,
>William Oakey  wrote:
>> A man who knows his shit, another internet provider Ron?
>>Where is Neil's money? 
>
>Never mind his money, where is his shit?
>He flushes the toilet and he thinks it's gone.
>To where I wonder.... which beach has it landed on this time?
>
I always thought that in the UK the turds floated off to sewer farms
(where I used to love playing when I was a kid, dodging the sprinklers)
and eventually ended up in reservoirs for sending back to us as drinking
water, which might explain the British people's sickly complexion.
-- 
Paul Allen

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy) wrote:
>As a mechanical engineering trade magazine _Machine Design_ might have
>a more accurate view of the costs that the CFC ban will impose than
>does _Reviews of Geophysics_, even though _Reviews of Geophysics_ is
>likely to be more accurate about the upper atmosphere.
If "machine design" were a refereed journal, I might agree.  It isn't,
and I don't.  Its estimates of costs were as ludicrous as its
atmospheric chemistry.
	Paul

In article <526out$pn8@ktk2.smartt.com>, David Wei  wrote:
>
>:>>Read Discover Magazine August 1996......
>:>
>:>I did. There was no data. Claims of the manufacturer/inventor are not
>:>data. Only prototypes were involved. We need data supprting the claim
>:>for mass production items (and I mean *mass*, productioin, wiht 16 of
>:>the things in every car).
>
>Then why don't you wait for the test result?  Don't tell me that you miss the
>part that they are going to test the thing in a extaustive test....
I shan't hold my breath awaiting test results.
I am curious how they will exhaustively test for mass production
characteristics, though.
-- 
    ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@netcom.com) **********
    *               Daly City California                  *
    *   Between San Francisco and South San Francisco     *
    *******************************************************

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
In article <51vm0q$q1i@lex.zippo.com> dietz@cin.net (Paul F. Dietz) writes:
   > 
   > David Burton  wrote:
   > 
   > 
   > 
   > >	I don't have the SA reference but check out:
   > 
   > >	1. What's So Bad About CFC's, Machine Design, 22 Oct 1993.
   > 
   > >	2. The $5 Trillion Mistake, Machine Design, 24 Jan 1994.
   > 
   > 
   > And after you have done that, revise (radically downward) your opinion
   > of Machine Design magazine.
   > 
   > BTW, isn't a little strange to use a mech eng trade rag as a primary
   > source on atmospheric chemistry?   Reviews of Geophysics would be
   > more appropriate, don't you think? 
As a mechanical engineering trade magazine _Machine Design_ might have
a more accurate view of the costs that the CFC ban will impose than
does _Reviews of Geophysics_, even though _Reviews of Geophysics_ is
likely to be more accurate about the upper atmosphere.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
I responded to Tooie (tooie@sover.net) in sci.energy.
  Bob Bruhns, WA3WDR, bbruhns@li.net
Tooie wrote (in part):
: Since the results of those events, and all other in the US, have had no 
: adverse effects on the general public, I feel that this is an excellent 
: example of safe operation.  

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Thank you for taking the trouble to post such a detailed reply.
My previous post may have been too brief to serve its purpose, so perhaps
I should clarify some of the issues you raise.   I believe others in this
thread have made similar points, but since you do so specifically with
reference to my post, I shall do so too.
> >My software will index and cross-reference the abstracts,
>
> There are already many systems that do this, but the fact is, 20+ years of
> R&D; has not yet resulted in a machine indexing system that is satisfying.
I took the view that a detailed discussion would be inapppropriate
to a newsgroup post in this thread.   What is new is the implementation
of Holistic Hypertext, to generate automatic cross-references within
the abstracts themselves (independent of database size).   To implement
a whole new search engine would indeed have been re-inventing the wheel,
so I'm afraid I can't offer you a new database engine.   However, as I'm
sure you're aware, the growth of the Web has fuelled unprecedented
iand continuing advances in this area, to the extent that shortcomings
I described less than a year ago are no longer applicable today.
Since you're clearly interested in the subject, you'll no doubt have
read what I've posted to more appropriate fora for technical discussion,
such as the IRLIST (although I don't recollect your feedback from that).
> Of course, that all assumes you have legal right to use the abstracts to
> create a publicly accessible, searchable database and serve up the
> abstracts....
This is an important point, and is precisely what deterred me from trying
to go ahead when I first appreciated the potential of the Web for this
kind of collection.   However, a number of people have expressed very
positive and well-reasoned sentiments in this thread, leading to the
view that the idea may be one whose time has come.
> Ah, now we are getting to the present. You are interested in creating a
> digital library! Comparable to a traditional library, only in electronic
> form....
> There are some notable R&D; projects under way....
> Yes, it is fully operational. (Access is
> restricted to UCSF of course. If you are interested, you can find out more
> at http://www.library.ucsf.edu)
ucsf.edu?   That looks like U.S. academia.   I would expect them to
have a decent traditional library within a few minutes physical travel,
and at the very least an old-fashioned PC-based database/search system.
I cannot see how a Web system is of more than marginal benefit in this
kind of situation.   Perhaps those responsible are unwilling or unable
to accommodate the needs of people such as myself, who left academia many
years ago and don't have access to a real physical library.   Or perhaps
they simply haven't developed the mechanisms for selective access to open
and restricted documents for different users (which would certainly be
IMHO an unfortunate oversight, given the simplicity of the task itself).
> [size of database and technical issues]
I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here.   Your interest appears
to involve database technologies and information mining.   My principal
motivation is orthogonal to this: to harness existing technology to
make the library more widely accessible.   As a small-scale case in point,
I have recently developed a Web-based document management system for
a major international Client.   This replaces an existing PC-database
system, and the benefit it brings is not in terms of the search engine
itself, but in terms of making the database directly accessible from
collaborating institutions and industrial partners in several countries.
> This idea has been floated by a few people. To date, there has not been a
> mad rush by authors to abandon the established schorlarly publishing
> channels. The realm of print publishing is too closely intertwined with
> academic and professional recognition,
Which is precisely why I find this thread interesting.   I realise that
scientists and engineers who post to newsgroups comprise a self-selected
sample of the total population, but I am nevertheless encouraged.
Nick Kew.

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
Dr. Barry Kort  lives in a Condominium located along the flowage of
the Shawsheen River in Bedford
Massachussets. The land alongside the river include Wetlands and
Conservation Lands owned by
the Town of Bedford and protected by the Bedford Conservation ByLaws
and by the Wetlands
Protection Act. Some Unit Owners decided to build a golf course on
this land, and did so without
notification to the Town, without approval from the Planning Board and
Conservation Commission,
and without approval of the remaining Unit Owners. The Trustees of
Bedfordshire then assumed the
cost of maintaining the golf course and rolled the expenses into the
annual budget. 
Dr. Kort  protested the invasion and conversion of the Wetlands and
Conservation Lands for the
construction of an unapproved golf course, and refused to pay for it.
The Trustees then filed a
lawsuit in Superior Court, seeking an order to sell his condo. Dr.
Kort counter-sued the
Trustees, alleging willful breach of trust and exceeding their lawful
authority. You can read the
pleadings in the case at
http://www.musenet.org/~bkort/bedfordshire.html and send messages of
support to Dr. Kort at moulton@musenet.org 
If the Trustees win the case, Dr. Kort  will lose his condo and be
forced to move away. Your letters of support will be forwarded to the
Trustees, with copies to town officials and to the local newspaper. If
you give your permission, they may also be reposted on the the Web
pages here. 

In article , agent@netcom.com (Billy D) wrote:
…In article <3245BCC6.50E@ids2.idsonline.com> ypark@ids2.idsonline.com writes:
…>
…>Well the Wint-o-green effect is actually called.. oh what was it called,
…>something about sparking.. like scintillation (sp?) or something like
…>that.  I think it's caused because the crystal structure / chemical
…>bonds within the crystals are being forcibly broken -> therefore release
…>of energy, in this case in the form of light.
…>
…        Tribo-luminescence.
…
…
…        [no... really]
The Wint-O-Green (can you tell I'm a pack-a-day [of lifesavers] freak?)
effect is called tribloluminesence. Its causes are thus:
When you crack the crystal, the molecules shear apart, and the electrons
that were formerly shared amongst them, valencewise, are now forced to
choose one molecule or the other. This creates a temporary dipole with a
positive charge on one side and a negative on the other (I don't know why
you don't get a random distribution that cancels out). The electrons on
the temporary-negative side attempt to equalize the charge by jumping the
gap, which imparts a charge to the Nitrogen in the intervening air, and
this is what actually sparkles green. Any process that breaks a crystal
with a similar structure will work. You may be familiar with glow stones,
small rocks that make sparks when you bang them together. The rocks are
actually dulled pieces of quartz, and you're striking off small particles
that make lifesaver-like fractures. I've also heard of such a thing being
possible with frozen human blood, and a host of other tasties.
Omar
Any complaints about the validity of my explanation should be addressed to
Dr. Cassadonte of Texas Tech university, Lubbock, TX, from whom I cribbed
it.
-- 
Of all fruits, it is the grape that is most maligned by the popular preception of its taste, one borne far more of horrifyingly-oversugared confections than of experience with the genuine article. Why, oh why was it singled out for such unprecedented levels of perfidy?

no@flames.com wrote:
>If I did not have anywhere proper to "walk" a dog, I would not have
>one. Few people see things this way, however, which is why every piece
>of green ground in a town area is covered with dogshit so much you can
Somehow, the most anti-social part of the dog owners seem to think that
they have a RIGHT to own a dog, no matter what (which, unfortunately, is
*legally* true), and because they have this right, they think they also
have a RIGHT to harass their neighbors with dog shit, dangerous biting
animals, or dogs barking continuously for hours, preferably at night.
"Because that's the dog's nature."
Don't get me wrong: 
I have nothing against dogs. I think most of them are really adorable.
I'm sure most people enjoy their pet, and probably a lot of people can
hardly do without it (children, old people, people living alone).
And watchdogs can do a great job (in the right environment, that is!).
But I DO have something against those 'wrong' dog-owners. They just do
as they like, until someone with enough power (or courage) stops them.
(Looks like they're all some kind of small "Saddam Husseins"........)
But then:
Oh well, we're all just human. 
Some of us have even more shortcomings than others.
                      Puppy Lover

Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.
In article <52199o$5d7@ddi2.digital.net>, Rod Adams 
 wrote:
>Dan Evens  wrote:
>>DaveHatunen wrote:
>>> Consider for instance, that the drinking water piping was 
classified as
>>> non-safety related. Sure. But what if the drinking water 
pipe runs
>>> directly above the main electrical panels?
>>
>>I can't speak to the U.S. situation (this was w.r.t. TMI) 
but I can
>>speak to the Canadian situation.
>>
>>On my first trip to the Chalk River Laboratory (that's an 
AECL site)
>>I noticed that one of the drinking fountains had some kind 
of extra
>>little pipe thing comming out of it and going into the 
drain. I asked
>>what it was.
>>
>>Oh, that's an emergency pressure relief valve. See, that 
water is
>>under pressure, so it's considered a pressure vessel, so it 
has to
>>have a relief valve because this is a nuclear site.
>>
>>Yeah, but the reactor is like 400 meters away in another 
building.
>>You need pressure relief valves on your water fountains in 
this
>>building?
(big cut)
>This might even eliminate some nuclear jobs in the short 
term, but
>at least there will be a future for those of us who are far 
too young
>to retire, far to stubborn to leave the industry, and far 
too aware
>of the limitations of our competitors to think that nuclear 
power
>cannot compete.
>
>Rod Adams
>Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
>http://www.opennet.com/AAE
>
Mr. Adams,
I applaud your efforts.  I am glad there are others in the 
world who are not afraid to attract flames in an attempt to 
get people to stop and think.  When regulation gets to the 
point that you have witnessed, it is obvious to me that we 
have lost touch with reality, lost touch with what true risk 
means, and lost touch with what we are trying to do regarding 
providing society with a service or product.  Somehow, 
everyone seems to have gotten "westernized" to the point that 
they practically cannot function anymore in a technological 
world.  Have we gotten so afraid of our own shadows that we 
are now paralyzed by fear of the unknown?  If we have, it is 
no wonder that I rub so many people the wrong way - I for one 
do not live my life in fear, nor do I intend to start now.  
Keep up the good work - this type of reply inspires me to 
keep sending out my own brand of "stop and think" messages.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no freedom without economic freedom.  Remember that the next time
a politician says he needs to raise tax rates!