Newsgroup sci.environment 105035

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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: Freon R12 is Safe -- From: TL ADAMS
Subject: Re: Freon R12 Update -- From: TL ADAMS
Subject: Re: Pure habitat. -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa! -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: bbr@hh.mterna.de
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Bad Drilling in Scotland -- From: eugene@edflex.demon.co.uk (Eugene Clarke)
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: Pure habitat. -- From: hopkins2@ix.netcom.com(Rick A. Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Freon R12 is Safe -- From: gerl@Theorie.Physik.UNI-Goettingen.DE (Franz Gerl)
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Subject: Re: future climate (Carbon in the Atmosphere) -- From: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Subject: Death Threat for Opposing Mountain Biking -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: Sarah
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: Sarah
Subject: Re: Coal madness (was Nuclear madness) -- From: richp@mnsinc.com (Rich Puchalsky)
Subject: Re: How to control aphid populations? -- From: congobits@aol.com (Congobits)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com (gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com)
Subject: environmental advertising -- From: Claudio Orlandi
Subject: Re: Strengthening Environmental Protection -- From: congobits@aol.com (Congobits)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.)
Subject: Trolls, billygoats: defined ....troll types: -- From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Subject: Where is the contamination? -- From: current@plains.nodak.edu (Robert W Current)
Subject: Re: Coal madness (was Nuclear madness) -- From: af329@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds)
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces -- From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Subject: Re: Tropical ocean warming - are climate models wrong? -- From: af329@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds)
Subject: Re: Safety or Sanity (was the Rusland Beeches, England) -- From: gates
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: John
Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa! -- From: Mike Edgar
Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa! -- From: Mike Edgar
Subject: Re: Death Threat for Opposing Mountain Biking -- From: snoop@et.byu.edu (joe)
Subject: Are Airlines Using High-Sulfur, Polluting Fuel? -- From: rockaway@usa.pipeline.com(Bill Mulcahy)
Subject: Parks Do Not Protect Wildlife -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: Developer info requested. -- From: Amiel Ferman
Subject: Re: Tropical ocean warming - are climate models wrong? -- From: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon -- From: smatt@indirect.com (Steve Mattingly)

Articles

Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:49:47 -0700
Mark Woodhead wrote:
>   I hope you can get past the problems you've had with specific mtn
> bikers, and learn for yourself that many, if not most, are not crazed,
> juvenile delinquents out to ruin your peaceful experience.
Dream on. 100% of mountain bikers ride where it is inappropriate (off road).
YOU can't even control your own fellow MTBers, so why should anyone else be
expected to do so? The only sensible solution is to ban off-road biking. I
am sure there must be some smokers that try not to impact nonsmokers, but that
is not sufficient to justify allowing smoking in public areas.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: Freon R12 is Safe
From: TL ADAMS
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:46:33 -0700
Rod Adams wrote:
> Does anyone have any reasonable answers that will pass the logic
> test?
> 
> Rod Adams
Look, get out a basic thermodynamic book, look at the delta E between
a solution and pure comps.  Its that bloody simple.  Gravity is one
force
involved, but the other is the delta C (concentration).
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Subject: Re: Freon R12 Update
From: TL ADAMS
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:52:02 -0700
doug h. wrote:
> 
> In article <52e8pm$gjl@curly.cc.emory.edu>,
> Lloyd R. Parker  wrote:
> Also, there is no Federal law which requires anyone, professional
> mechanic or DIYer, to fix automotive Freon leaks instead of just
> re-charging.  State and local laws may be different, of course.
> 
> My information comes from an AC training manual provided by the MACS
> (Mobile Air Conditioning Society), which quotes EPA regulations and
> public statements.
> 
You are almost correct, certain large quanity users and those that are
part of certain industrial classification are required to do capture.
It is an a miscommunication that repairs need to be performed before
recharging, althought the contractor's that the EPA hired to teach
the repair shops spread this falsehood.  You can still get your
system recharged without the expensive repair bill
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Subject: Re: Pure habitat.
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:10:10 -0700
Marc VanHeyningen wrote:
> 
> Thus said Mike Vandeman :
> >I'd like to start with Alcatraz Island -- not because it is great habitat, but
> >because it is VERY public, & would create lots of publicity & therefore education
> >of people around the world. Instead of seeing a prison, people could go around it
> >in a boat & look through binoculars -- at the world's first area off-limits to
> >people. Want to help? I doubt that it is good mountain biking material.
> 
> Several of Washington State's San Juan Islands already have this status
> and have for a while.
You mean NO HUMANS ARE ALLOWED? I doubt it. Usually scientists are allowed to go
there. Can you please check that out?
  Giving Alcatraz this status probably would serve
> mainly to convince people that protected areas are chosen not on the
> basis of sensitive ecosystems deserving protection but for publicity.
What is wrong with publicity? That is called "education". Right now, most
protected areas are chosen on the basis of recreational potential for humans.
I know of not one single area in the world that is exclusively for wildlife.
Do you???
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa!
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:57:18 -0700
Mark Woodhead wrote:
> P.S.  Were you going to respond to my last posting about your claims of
> "catastrophic" damage caused by mtn bikers. We're all still waiting for
> that evidence as well.
That was posted in the original article under this subject. That is exactly
why mountain bikes were BANNED by unanimous vote! The evidence is all around
you, if you aren't too lazy to look for it!
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: bbr@hh.mterna.de
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:19:16 -0700
Mr R Chew wrote:
> 
> On 25 Sep 1996 11:41:56 GMT, iain.rowan@nojunk.e-mail.ta.very.much
> (Iain Rowan) wrote:
> 
> >OK, lurkers, hands up.  When was the last time a cat, horse or cow
> >excreted on the pavement outside your front door?  When was the last
> >time you wouldn't let your kids play in the public park because there was
> >so much cat/cow/horse crap there?
> Considering the two legged animals that prowl on our public parks and
> elsewhere that are of more danger to our children than any dog crap, I
> would not allow any child of mine on a public park even if the park
> was scrubbed with boiling water and disinfectant twice a day .
> There is a large amout of cat crap to be seen on our streets if you
> take as much trouble to look for it as you people do in looking for
> dog crap . Hi guys,
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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:03:24 -0700
Chernobyl Cowboyz wrote:
> 
> You know what it all boils down to?
> Environmentalists drive cars.  They think it's wrong that the bikers
> prove that the
> environmentalists are actually big hypocrites so they need to prove that
> biking destroys
> nature.  Get a life, you motorist!
Actually, most mountain bikers carry their bikes on their cars & trucks, because
they are bored with all easily accessible trails & have to ride on trails that
are far from their homes. True environmentalists don't drive OR mountain bike.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Bad Drilling in Scotland
From: eugene@edflex.demon.co.uk (Eugene Clarke)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:13:47 +0100
I live in an area which is threatened by a drilling company called Coalbed
Methane ltd in Upper Largo, Fife Scotland.
They already have sites elsewhere in the UK.
The local protest group are finding it hard to get them to respond to our
requests for information.
If anyone can help us oppose them destroy our community please get in
touch. hard info for use in planning/courts would be especially welcome.
eugene@edflex.demon.co.uk
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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:24:04 -0700
Justen Meltz wrote:
> 
> Mike Edgar (Mike@edgarco.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : You saved me having to compose a similar post Rob, thanks. We have the
> : same problem here (UK) but on a much smaller scale of course, and the
> : damage done to habitat by MB'ers is quite catastrophic. In any
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> What catastrophic damage is caused my MTB's that isn't caused by hikers?
> The only thing I can think of _may_ be increased erosion, but trail
> erosion harms neither the habitat or wildlife.  It only harms the trails.
Brilliant! Don't you know that trails are (ex-)habitat? The difference between
hikers & bikers is mostly one of degree: bikes allow MANY more people to get into
wildlife habitat, do MUCH more erosion damage, cause MANY more accidents that are
MUCH more serious, etc., etc. That is all obvious to everyone except mountain
bikers, who deliberately look the other way so that they don't "see" any damage.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:30:15 -0700
Mark Woodhead wrote:
> It seems unlikely to me that Mike Vandeman will ever be vindicated in his
> baseless attacks on mtn bikers in general,
It has already happened in many areas of the world, such as the incident in
Des Moines, Iowa, where mountain bikers had done so much damage & were such
total asses that they were banned by unanimous vote of a very conservative
county board of supervisors.
 and if the horrors he implies
> ever come to pass, it will not be due to the mtn biking community as a
> whole, because for the most part, they are there for the experience of the
> wild.
About as much as zoo-visiting, popcorn-munching, peanut-throwing kids are there
to learn about wildlife.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: Pure habitat.
From: hopkins2@ix.netcom.com(Rick A. Hopkins)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 18:55:01 GMT
>You mean NO HUMANS ARE ALLOWED? I doubt it. Usually scientists are
>allowed to go there. Can you please check that out?
Goosh, Mike:
Not scientists, the horrors of it!!!
Rick
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Subject: Re: Freon R12 is Safe
From: gerl@Theorie.Physik.UNI-Goettingen.DE (Franz Gerl)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 19:13:15 GMT
Rod Adams (atomicrod@aol.com) wrote:
: I have followed the CFC debate with some interest for the past
: three or four years.
:
Hm. You nevertheless seem to deserve a polite answer. Below
I include a part of Robert Parson's excellently written FAQ
on ozone depletion. You should definitely read it, and you 
can obtain it via
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/ozone-depletion/top.html
http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/sci.environment.html 
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/ozone-depletion/.html
Plaintext versions can be found at:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/
ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/
You should definitely read it, and come back if any question
has not been answered.
The short answer to you problem ist that atmospheric gases do 
not segragate by weight in the troposphere and the stratosphere, 
because the mixing mechanisms (convection, "eddy diffusion") 
do not distinguish molecular masses. 
: What troubles me is the lack of knowledge of basic physical principles
: on the part of the proponents of the theory that the source of Cl in
: the ozone layer is man-made CFCs.  (Yes, there is Cl that has
: been measured in the ozone layer. There have also been some indirect
: measurements of CFCs in concentrations measured in Parts per Trillion.)
: 
: The basic Newtonian physical principle that is completely ignored
: by people like Sherwood Rowland and James Lovelock is that gravity
: works.  
It was known well before Newton, that heavier things gather at
the bottom.
:             The average freon compound has a molecular weight of 
: about 130 while air is a mixture of gases with molecular weights
: of about 18-45 (N2 is 28, O2 is 32, Ar is 41, CO2 is 44, and H2O is
: 18). 
You almost stepped over it here. Air is a mixture, not segregated
by molecular weights. This of course is valid for CFCs too.
:            In gaseous mixtures, heavy components tend to sink. This 
: principle is what makes hot air rise (causing afternoon thunderstorms
: in my local area) and cold air sink.
Only in "bulk" form. Breweries have to take care of CO_2 collecting
in sinks. Nevertheless it will mix and diffuse in a relatively short
time. Do an experiment, put KMnO4 (heavy) into water and see what happens.
Do a little stirring, it will not segregate again.
: 
: Knowing that, how is it possible to postulate that CFCs that are
: released into the atmosphere will preferentially find their way
: to the stratosphere, located more than 15 miles above the surface
: of the earth, and not into the numerous sinks and pockets that
: cover the earth?  
: 
No scientist ever claimed they would preferntially go there. 
If CFCs were not  destroyed there, releasing Chlorine,
there would be an equilibrium. 
: I have had direct experience with the behavior of freon in a closed,
: but well mixed environment.  When we had airconditioning leaks on
: my submarine, the freon could not even be found 20 feet about the 
: bottom.  It concentrated itself in the very lowest portions of the
: ship (known as the bilge.)
: 
: I have even gone to the trouble of asking Professor Rowland himself
: to try to explain why he thinks that a heavy gas like freon will rise
: in defiance of gravity.  I was pleased that he took the trouble to
: write back, but I must admit that his reply failed to answer the
: question.  (He fell back on the old saw that "CFCs have been measured
: in the stratosphere" without mentioning the very minute concentration
: at which they were measured.)
: 
: Does anyone have any reasonable answers that will pass the logic
: test?
: 
: Rod Adams
: 
Below an excerpt of Section 1.3 of Part I of Robert Parson's FAQ:
Subject: 1.3) How does the composition of the atmosphere change with
               altitude? (Or, how can CFC's get up to the stratosphere 
               when they are heavier than air?) 
In the earth's troposphere and stratosphere, most _stable_ chemical
species are "well-mixed" - their mixing ratios are independent of
altitude.  If a species' mixing ratio changes with altitude, some
kind of physical or chemical transformation is taking place. That 
last statement may seem surprising - one might expect the heavier 
molecules to dominate at lower altitudes.  The mixing ratio of 
Krypton (mass 84), then, would decrease with altitude, while that 
of Helium (mass 4) would increase.  In reality, however, molecules 
do not segregate by weight in the troposphere or stratosphere.  
The relative proportions of Helium, Nitrogen, and Krypton are 
unchanged up to about 100 km.  
Why is this? Vertical transport in the troposphere takes place by
convection and turbulent mixing.  In the stratosphere and in the
mesosphere, it takes place by "eddy diffusion" - the gradual mechanical 
mixing of gas by motions on small scales. These mechanisms do not 
distinguish molecular masses.  Only at much higher altitudes do mean 
free paths become so large that _molecular_ diffusion dominates and 
gravity is able to separate the different species, bringing hydrogen 
and helium atoms to the top. The lower and middle atmosphere are thus
said to be "well mixed."
[Chamberlain and Hunten] [Wayne] [Wallace and Hobbs]
Experimental measurements of the fluorocarbon CF4 demonstrate this
homogeneous mixing.  CF4 has an extremely long lifetime in the
stratosphere - probably many thousands of years.  The mixing ratio
of CF4 in the stratosphere  was found to be 0.056-0.060 ppbv 
from 10-50 km, with no overall trend.  [Zander et al. 1992]
Greetings, Franz
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Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:37:04 GMT
On Sat, 28 Sep 96 07:29:56 GMT, simon@star-one.org.uk (Simon Gray)
wrote:
>In article <324c3bd9.18966560@news.demon.co.uk>
>           ron@dane.u-net.com "Mr R Chew" writes:
>
>~ No ,don't pay money to read rubbish that is written in them these 
>~ days . Never bought a newspaper for over six years sooner spend the
>~ money on our six dogs .
>
>In that case you can afford to pay Neil the money you owe him.
>
>-- 
>   []=-             Simon Gray, in Birmingham, EU       <*>
>   //    _-=__-=     Don't give in to censorship - boycott The Observer
> _/|]    ) ___ \      & The Guardian.
>(_) \___/_(___)_|         http://www.mahayana.demon.co.uk/
> @          @
I owe no one nothing never have done never will owe anybody anything ,
but Demon internet owe me a lot odf money for service that I paid for
and did not receive  !!! .
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Subject: Re: future climate (Carbon in the Atmosphere)
From: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 19:53:37 GMT
Steinn Sigurdsson (steinn@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis) writes:
: Next question is: why has mean precipitation remained constant
: if temperature are increasing?
I don't see why it shouldn't. There's a first order constraint that
the evaporative equilibrium over warmer water goes up, but that
doesn't require more evaporative flux, at least beyond the trivial
amount required to restore equilibrium, which would NOT appear in
the balance between evaporation and precipitation.
To clarify, the time scales of evaporation are very rapid compared
to the time scales of warming, so by comparison with background evaporative
flux, the amount of evaporation required to balance the warming surface
would be very small. Furthermore, the mass conservation argument that
total precipitation equal total evaporation doesn't apply to this tiny
imbalance - the additional moisture simply stays in the atmosphere. 
Over long time scales, this suffices to make the atmosphere moister, but it
doesn't provide a significant constraint to the moisture fluxes. 
By the original argument, weakened large scale circulation, the enhanced
low level moisture might well be counterbalanced by reduced large-scale forced
convection. I don't see any decisive first order argument as to which would
prevail.      
On the other hand, I thought GCMs *were* showing globally enhanced rainfall.
(eg, IPCC '90 Executive Summary to ch 5) In fact, that conclusion was given
fairly high (4 on a scale of 5) confidence.
mt
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Subject: Death Threat for Opposing Mountain Biking
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:49:34 -0700
Mountain bikers will aparently go to any length, to continue their selfish
pleasures, including trying to intimidate anyone who criticizes mountain
biking. This example from Kansas University is just one of many such letters
that you can expect to get if you say something that the bullies don't like:
Return-Path: Labuser@engr.ukans.edu
From: Labuser@engr.ukans.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:25:45 -0700
Subject: I don't think you're listening.
To: mjvande@pacbell.net
This is a message from a country you've never stepped your foot on.
Be curteous to other people's opinion and wishes.  Do not bomb
email list with your myths.  While some people will be entertained by
your stories, most people will be annoyed.
Don't be surprised if one of them get really..really  angry and send you
a real bomb.  It's a crazy world out there; you never know what's inside
the parcel box you're going to open.
-Han-
p.s. Pardon my English for it is not my mother tounge.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
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Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: Sarah
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:27:24 +0100
In article <52j4i7$b6i@sun4.bham.ac.uk>, "Sam J. Turner"
 writes
>Mr R Chew (ron@dane.u-net.com) wrote:
>
>: There is a large amout of cat crap to be seen on our streets if you
>: take as much trouble to look for it as you people do in looking for
>: dog crap . 
The point is you don't have to look for the dog crap.
> 
-- 
Sarah
Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/
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Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: Sarah
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:31:25 +0100
>In article <324c3b17.18772866@news.demon.co.uk>, Mr R Chew net.com> writes
>>On 26 Sep 1996 08:30:24 GMT, iain.rowan@nojunk.e-mail.ta.very.much
>>(Iain Rowan) wrote:
>>>I'm not blaming dogs - it's hardly their fault.  I'm not blaming 'dog-owners'. 
>>> I am blaming the sadly sizeable proportion of dog owners who are 
>>>thoughtless selfish and stupid.
>
>>I only hope that one day you dog haters find yourselves in some
>>serious situation where only a dog can be of help and the dog REFUSES
>>to help you .
*I* don't hate dogs, just the owners that won't clean up after them.
Why do you believe that your dog has more rights to the pavement than my
children?
-- 
Sarah
Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:info@turnpike.com
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Subject: Re: Coal madness (was Nuclear madness)
From: richp@mnsinc.com (Rich Puchalsky)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 20:35:30 GMT
Roger W. Faulkner (rfaulkner@interramp.com) wrote:
: Rich Puchalsky wrote:
: > It's almost always a safe bet to guess that any sci.energy/sci.env
: > cross-post is part of a thread about nuclear power.  I'm an environmentalist
: > who has heard more than enough of both nuclear power attack and defense
: > to last a good long while -- shall we start on coal for a change? :-)
: I'd like to add another major impact of coal: dispersal of heavy metals
: and radioactivity.
: And how about acidification of streams?
Due to acid precipitation, I beleive (I'd already mentioned that).
: Coal is an environmental basket case all around...but you knew that. Do
: you think Nuclear power is preferable?
That's funny, I was conciously trying to start a coal thread that did *not*
bring in nuclear and it immediately returned to that topic.  I hypothesize
that nuclear takes much more abuse on Usenet partially because its
defenders are so eager to carry on threads on the topic.  Any coal
aficionados on sci.energy may correctly figure that not bothering to respond
will cause the thread to terminate very quickly.  There may be a lesson
there for the nuclear people.
--
sci.environment FAQs & critiques - http://www.mnsinc.com/richp/sci_env.html
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Subject: Re: How to control aphid populations?
From: congobits@aol.com (Congobits)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 16:55:19 -0400
I have found that the best controls for bugs (any kind) are other bugs.
You can get predator mites that will chow down on aphids and their eggs
like there's no tomorrow, then consume each other when the primary food
(aphids & eggs) is gone. Predatory insects are available from a lot of
sources, but for quickest access year-round check greenhouse and indoor
plant suppliers...
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com (gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:25:48 GMT
Eric Anderson  wrote:
>Kirk Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> Go ask someone at Allstate or any other large home-owners insurance
>> company if they don't think the effects of global warming are real. I'm
>> not joking.
>Yeah, they are an authority on the subject for sure.
>> It is irrelevant if the effects of global warming are not manifesting
>> themselves exactly as was originally predicted.
>Not so.  It is *very* relevant.  It is not that they are not manifesting
>themselves *exactly* like predicted.  They are not manifesting
>themselves *anything* like predicted.  The models are simply wrong.
>> The point is that
>> atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are increasing at a steady (and
>> accelerating) pace.
>This is about the only known variable in an extremely complex equation.
simply unture
>> This *is* causing large and more frequeny dangerous
>> anomolies in our weather. That's the point.
>Can you prove that?  Can you prove that with the invention of, say, the
>weather satellite, that we aren't simply doing a better job of
>documenting these "anomolies", as you call them?
stupidity knows no bounds. These so called anomolies are way out side
the standard deviation, even bone heads like you would recognize them.
>Kind of the same way we didn't know about the ozone hole until we had
>the equipment to detect it.  Strange coincidence, eh?
that is just a lie. The model was accepted theory before the ozone
hole was detected.
>Just in the last 200 years, we have experienced 'natural' climate swings
>far greater than the most dire of these greenhouse 'models'.  Go back
>further and you find even greater 'natural' climate swings.  
wheres the cite to backup your claim?
>The fact is, we simply do not have the consistant long-term data that is
>needed to make *any* predictions about the effect of increasing CO2
>levels.
>Oh, wait!!  We do have lots of paleoclimatic data.  What does it say? 
>It says that our current climate (since the last ice age) is *unusually*
>stable.  It also says that today's climate is much cooler than for most
>of the Earth's history (barring said ice ages, though there is no
>denying that we are simply between ice ages at this time).  It also says
>that CO2 levels are lower today than throughout most of Earth's history.
the last line is another lie now where's the cites to back up this
useless tripe?
>Gee, how did the planet survive without us to save it?
>Quite well actually.  Paleoclimatic data would suggest that an Earth
>with warmer global temperatures and higher CO2 levels, is an Earth that
>has larger tropical regions, fewer desert areas, more plant life, and is
>an Earth with fewer extremes of temperature between the poles and the
>equator.  Simply put, a warmer Earth is a healthier Earth.
don't know a damn thing about bio diveristy either.
>Some scientists have predicted that the current 'natural'
>desertification of the Earth (we are only contributing to an on-going
>natural process) and the cooling trend of the last few million years,
>may well be the initial stirrings leading to the end of life on this
>planet--though said scientists predict this process will take 100
>million years.
>Why don't people just put away their vain view of humanity and realize
>that there are much greater forces at work here than we mere humans?
>Eric J. Anderson
>eric@as.arizona.edu
>Please forward email of responses, flames, etc.
Return to Top
Subject: environmental advertising
From: Claudio Orlandi
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:11:05 +0200
Hello, I am an Italian student and I am preparing for my final degree.
As Iam concentrating on English Linguistics, precisely on the discourse
analysis of environmental advertising language, I am desperatly looking
for (press, VHS videos, AVI) advertising texts concerning the
environment( green consumerism, green as a social issue, i.e. profit,
non profit advertising materials. 
Please send me a replay only Email. Many thanks, Sara De Marco
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Strengthening Environmental Protection
From: congobits@aol.com (Congobits)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 17:02:47 -0400
On 9/27, Muarice Schwartz wrote refering to an article available on the
web from the Sierra Club. To quote:
>"Environmentalists don't reach out to sportsmen," says Chris Potholm, a
professor of government and legal studies at Bowdoin College in Maine. "If
they did, they' d be invincible. Whenever sportsmen combine with
environmentalists, you have 60 to 70 percent of the population, an
absolutely irresistible coalition."....
I would point out that many sportsman are environmentalists, and can
indeed get a lot done when focused in unison. For example, look at the
organization Ducks Unlimited. Their deal is much like The Nature
Conservancy's, although they've focused on wetland preservation. They have
made a substantive difference in the duck population while increasing the
areas in which one can hunt. When they want to save something, they buy it
outright thru funds raised by donations; or sometimes the land parcel
itself is donated.
At the same time I agree with the premise: If more people who are into
outdoor sports and recreation made the environment a political priority,
you'd have a real leviathon.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:13:00 GMT
charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew) wrote:
->In article <324c06f0.180922867@nntp.st.usm.edu>,
->   brshears@whale.st.usm.edu (Harold Brashears) wrote:
->>steve@unidata.ucar.edu (Steve Emmerson) wrote for all to 
->see:
->>
->>>In article <324B25BA.1F71@as.arizona.edu>,
->>>	Eric Anderson  writes:
->>>
->>>> ..., I will concede that global temperatures
->>>> have risen *slightly* in the last century.  But such a 
->rise is
->>>> completely within the realm of *natural* processes.
->>>
->>>Would you please provide a reference for this assertion.
->>
->>I would be curious why you ask for proof of what, in my 
->understanding,
->>is very well known.  From your question I would deduce that 
->you do not
->>think the variation in the last century (which substantially 
->occurred
->>prior to 1945) is not within natural variation.  Is this 
->true?
->>
->You know this is not true.  The "no-riskers" think that 
->without "anthropogenic forcing" from mankind, the atmosphere 
->would have zero natural variability in any measured 
->component.  Thus, there is no need to prove that this is so 
->- it is already taken as gospel that it is true.  If we hurry 
->up and act now, we can still save ourselves from this evil 
->variability!
Nice little straw man there.  Did you build it yourself, or did
someone sell it to you?
The only people who claim that there is no variation without human
intervention are as misinformed as you.  But the fact that there is
variation doesn't disallow the forcing (in a very unpleasant
direction) that is going on now.
I suppose that it's just a coincidence that the hottest years of the
century just happend to occur after the concern about global warming?
Or perhaps it's the conspiracy...
->Incidentally, the "no-riskers" also think they can "pull the 
->wool over my eyes" with a bunch of scientific sounding crap 
->about attractors, mathematical modelling, positive feedback 
->in an inherently unstable dynamic atmospheric system, etc., 
->etc., ad nauseum. 
If you don't understand it, then I guess it must be crap.  Do you
believe in relativity theory?
-> Well, I don't believe in zero emissions, 
->zero risk, or the good intentions of "no-riskers".  Until I 
->see something that looks more like proof, I don't intend to 
->get excited about most of these arguments.
I don't believe in maximum emissions, maximum risk, or the good
intentions of "nothing's wrong, just keep on goingers."
As long as it looks like there's a problem, I intend to keep pushing
for a solution.
Zero emissions is, of course, not a practical goal.  But rushing into
disaster is not a practical goal either.
	JimmyO
->============================================================================
->For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
->http://www.hamblin.com/mf.main/articles.html
   Help to launch the future from
http://www.apollo-society.org/apollo
       The Apollo Launch Pad
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 10:13:07 GMT
staplei@planet.mh.dpi.qld.gov.au (Ian Staples) wrote:
->jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.) writes:
->>Eric Anderson  wrote:
->[Trivia alert!  -- Don't say you weren't warned. :-) ]
->>->Kind of the same way we didn't know about the ozone hole until we had
->>->the equipment to detect it.  Strange coincidence, eh?
->>Strange coincidence.  The ozone hole was predicted, and then when we
->>looked for it, there it was.  What a strange coincidence, since you
->>claim that the models are invalid.
->As a matter of trivial interest to this discussion, but of some
->importance in the field of science ethics and rationality in general:
->Wasn't the Antartic ozone hole quite obvious before it was "found"?
->I seem to recall reading that the instrument data were showing it
->nicely for some time, but because the readings were so far off
->"expected" ones they were naturally "corrected" to fall more in
->line with what they "should" be before they were used. [Perhaps
->"deleted" would be a better choice of word than "corrected"?]
->Perhaps someone can recall what caused people to actually *see*
->what was there all the time.  Was it that they looked for evidence
->to confirm the prediction; or was it serendipity that someone
->finally spotted it who didn't "know" it was "wrong"?
You're right, the hole was an anomoly that didn't fit the previous
model.  Another poster pointed out that it wasn't expected, and caused
the model to be expanded, at which point the readings were accepted.
The mid-latitude ozone thinning (which we are experiencing here in
Hawaii) is predicted by the earlier model.
It's a pretty common practice to bend a curve to fit the model, since
instruments are accepted to be inaccurate.  But the bending produces
anxiety, and the way to relieve that anxiety is is to adjust the model
so the curve fits the data better.  This may seem dishonest, but data
explains nothing and predicts nothing.  The model explains and
predicts, and is the goal of all that collection of data.  So without
a model, data is really useless.
A good example is the problems with classical (Newtonian) mechanics.
Problems were being found with it in the mid 19th century, but there
was no replacement, so a few fudge factors were worked out, the Lorenz
transforms.  But there was high anxiety about the matter, and various
people were trying to work it out.  The successful answer, Einstein's
relativity, relied not on instruments or data, but rather on a
philosophical shift, a rejection of the unobservable.  Einstein said
that if he had not come up with the theory, Poincaire (sp?), who
proposed the shift away from the unobservable, would have done it.
Once the new theory was proposed, it was almost immediately accepted,
because it resolved all the difficulties with classical mechanics. 
The first poster, Anderson, casts doubt on the ozone data because its
readings were expected.  I wonder how he views all the different
confirmations of relativity theory, since they fit what the
experimenters were looking for?
	JimmyO
   Help to launch the future from
http://www.apollo-society.org/apollo
       The Apollo Launch Pad
Return to Top
Subject: Trolls, billygoats: defined ....troll types:
From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:00:56 GMT
Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post or one posting trolls to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts nor logic.
  Yep,  mws@wt.net (MWSmith) wrote on Sat, 28 Sep 1996 05:41:16
   Re: it's a SCIENCE CONSPIRACY!!!!!  MEGADITTOS, RUSH! 
> ...
>>zepp@snowcrest.net (Zepp) lowered the collective IQ of the internet when he wrote:
>>>mws@wt.net (MWSmith) enlightened the cyberspace with this:
>>>
>>>>bashford@psnw.com (Crash) wrote:
....
EVERYTIME  that scienceis wrong? 
 Is this coincidence?   Every time???????????????
They are saying; "Everything, even science (reality as man knows it),
is all just a matter of political opinion".   Can we blame them?  No.
That is their job.
Both of you guys are full it.  Know-nothing dittohead parrots
it seems.
  Or Trolls.  
Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post or one posting trolls to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts nor logic.
billygoat:
     Those who debate trolls.  This type often claims to worship
     things like Truth, facts, and logic, and may spew them without
     provocation.  Billygoats come in two categories:
       Billykids:         
            These are often kneejerk billygoats who don't understand  
            the nature of trolls, and futilely take them seriously.  
       Rams:
            Are discriminating and seasoned billykids who 
            strategically only push troller's buttons to better make a
            point.
MWSmith wrote:
>Volcanos do not release clorine atoms into the atmosphere? No
>reputable scientist will dispute this fact. Clorine atoms may deplete
>the ozone. A CFC molecule will not affect the O3 atom. ( O3 = ozone).
>I knew I'd tweek someone with the cow fart statement. HA!
>BTW, where does the clorine that evaporates off of a swimming pool go?
>I think we should ban all swimming pools and water processing plants
>cuz they use tons of clorine. Less is better, right? 
Now I'm starting to wonder if you are a professional troll,
perhaps hired by the Rich Boys?  I really do admire the elegance
of your above paragraph.  At first glance it seems like the perfect
example of all true facts, (by ignoring context and other facts,)
coming to the skillfully executed wrong conclusion.
....
The execution of this propaganda skill was not the blathering
of an uninformed idiot, but was carefully planned.  But by whom?
Was the writer just another parrot?   What is the source of this
propaganda?
So? what motivates these trolls?   
Here are some troll types:
1) the do-me troll:
   This troll enjoys mental masturbation.  Wants stimulation, needs a
   good fuck, will settle for you.  A common amateur troll.  Often 
   about fourteen years old, respected by many twelve-year-olds.
2) pro-troll:
   Professional troll.  Funded as a cost-effective (cheap) form 
   of generic "advertising" such as; "Got Milk?" is generic.
   Often political, -- ya, the Rich Boys want what we have.
   Economics says; if it cost-effective, it probably exists.
   Includes most trollbots.
3) blind-parrot troll:
   Often some brand of innocent parrot with a cut-and-paste 
   filter-my-mind reality.  These also include many with 
   emotional, financial, or religious vested interests -- real, 
   imagined, or implanted.  Often engages in the self-censorship of
   his own mental inputs, and may seek self-validating propaganda
   rather than an education.  Quite common.
4) any suggestions? Did I miss any?  This might be fun.... 
--                        Doug bashford@psnw.com
Science, Ecology, Economics, Environment, and Politics (title)
http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/e-index.html
Return to Top
Subject: Where is the contamination?
From: current@plains.nodak.edu (Robert W Current)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 22:08:17 GMT
	I am pretty new to this newsgroup, and I was wondering if anyone 
could tell me of a river/lake that has contamination that fluctuates 
on an hourly basis.
	I would like to find a site to test that has contaminate 
fluctuations with some kind of time dependance, the shorter the better.  
I guess even down to minutes or seconds.
	The contamination can be of almost any type, but preferably it 
would involve _any_ of the following:  VOCs, small (
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Coal madness (was Nuclear madness)
From: af329@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 15:55:39 GMT
Roger W. Faulkner (rfaulkner@interramp.com) wrote:
: Coal is an environmental basket case all around...but you knew that. Do
: you think Nuclear power is preferable?
  What is more preferable... Lung Cancer or Malanoma?   Same kind of 
question.
  I would rather avoid both.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:49:32 GMT
On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:31:25 +0100, Sarah
 wrote:
>*I* don't hate dogs, just the owners that won't clean up after them.
>Why do you believe that your dog has more rights to the pavement than my
>children?
>
>-- 
>Sarah
>
>Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:info@turnpike.com
First of all Sarah, I never said that my dogs had more rights to
anywhere than anyone else's children, adults, or for that matter other
animals . 
But what I will say Sarah is that if you are like quite a lot parents
these days is that your children do NOT have the right to ride push
bikes along pavements ( the old name for pavement was footpath not
cycle track )  bumping into people when they step out of their front
doors . Also children do NOT have the right to go running around
supermarkets with trolleys like wild animals bumping into people
either .And for your information Sarah my dogs do not do it on the
pavement they do it in the roadway and on the odd occasion when an
accident occurs I carry a bag in my pocket for the use of .Do not
class all dog owners alike, must dog owners do not allow there animals
to foul the pavements and when they do it is cleaned up.
I won't go on but to my mind children are more of a nuisance to other
people than a well trained dog could ever be .
Return to Top
Subject: Re: health hazards of dog faeces
From: ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:50:34 GMT
On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:37:04 GMT, ron@dane.u-net.com (Mr R Chew)
wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Sep 96 07:29:56 GMT, simon@star-one.org.uk (Simon Gray)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <324c3bd9.18966560@news.demon.co.uk>
>>           ron@dane.u-net.com "Mr R Chew" writes:
>>
>>~ No ,don't pay money to read rubbish that is written in them these 
>>~ days . Never bought a newspaper for over six years sooner spend the
>>~ money on our six dogs .
>>
>>In that case you can afford to pay Neil the money you owe him.
>>
>>-- 
>>   []=-             Simon Gray, in Birmingham, EU       <*>
>>   //    _-=__-=     Don't give in to censorship - boycott The Observer
>> _/|]    ) ___ \      & The Guardian.
>>(_) \___/_(___)_|         http://www.mahayana.demon.co.uk/
>> @          @
>I owe no one nothing never have done never will owe anybody anything ,
>but Demon internet owe me a lot of money for service that I paid for
>and did not receive  !!! .
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Tropical ocean warming - are climate models wrong?
From: af329@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Scott Nudds)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 16:15:44 GMT
Hugh Easton (hugh@daflight.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: My personal impression (not backed up by detailed climate records, 
: unfortunately) is that most of the increase is in summer rather than
: winter temperatures. I understand that the summer of 1995 was the 
: hottest and driest for 300 years, and there have been several other
: near-record hot summers within the last 15 years. AFAIK, the same thing 
: has been happening in the states too.
: Unfortunately this is yet another example of how climate models have got
: things back to front: they predict that global warming will affect winter 
: temperatures more than summer temperatures. 
  Mr Easton's comments make it clear to me that his justification that 
"climate models have got things back to front", is not based upon 
evidence but his "personal impression".
  Fortunately science is not based on "personal impressions", and we may 
ignore Mr. Eastons "personal impressions" for this reason.
  My only question is why Mr. Easton sees a need to express his faith 
here rather than provide evidence.
  I suspect Mr Easton has chosen to value denialist faith over scientific 
evidence.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Safety or Sanity (was the Rusland Beeches, England)
From: gates
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:59:16 +0100
See below for pearl of wisdom
In article , Nick Eyre
 writes
>In article <52bvt4$7e8@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Steve Cumming
> writes
>>In article <3245b1e0.7788415@nntp.st.usm.edu>,
>>Harold Brashears  wrote:
>>>stevec@geog.ubc.ca (Steve Cumming) wrote for all to see:
>>>
>>>>In article <3242a613.55235701@nntp.st.usm.edu>,
>>>>Harold Brashears  wrote:
>>>>>stevec@geog.ubc.ca (Steve Cumming) wrote for all to see:
>>>>>
>>>>[much snippage]
>>>>
>>>>>I do not believe you will find anyone really familar with the
>>>>>peer-review process who will agree with you.  Since you claim
>>>>>familarity, when was your last peer reviewed paper?
>>>>
>>>>@article{cumming96,
>>>>  author =    "S. G. Cumming and P. J. Burton and B. Klinkenberg",
>>>>  title =     "Canadian boreal mixedwood forests may have no
>>>>               ``Representative'' areas: some implications for
>>>>               reserve design",
>>>>  year = 1996,
>>>>  journal = "Ecography",
>>>>  volume = "19",
>>>>  pages =  "162-180"
>>>>}
>>>If correct (I may or may not bother to check), 
>> 
>>\begin{flame} 
>>
>>Listen up, you son of a bitch.
>>
>>Either do the lit-search, and then retract your innuendo, or
>>save yourself from further embarrassment, and retract it
>>immediately.
>>\end{flame}
>>
>
>Don't encourage him Steve.  He claims to have looked for a well known
>international journal I referred to and failed to find it.
>
Hi all, I am truly shocked.  So I'll just remind the person who doesn't
like to bother librarians (may be something to do with mother and
childhood - or place of conception) that it is written:
A wise man may learn from a fool but a fool will never learn even from a
wise man.
Best Regards,  Les Ballard,
Ash, Fire and Earth Christian Warrior Wizard of the Third Age, Grand
Whizzard, Last of the Essex Cunning Men, Tree Wizard of The White
Brethren, Witch priest, intuitive environmentalist.
P.S.  I'll be pleased to publish some of the flaming in my wife's pagan
contact magazine so that the author can lose credibility before the
pagan public as well as his peers.(;-)
-- 
Les Ballard         Les@gates.demon.co.uk
c/o BM: Gates of Annwn
London WC1N 3XX   U.K.       44+(0)1708 670431
Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:info@turnpike.com
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: John
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:53:02 +0100
On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Mike Vandeman wrote:
> Chernobyl Cowboyz wrote:
> > 
> > You know what it all boils down to?
> > Environmentalists drive cars.  They think it's wrong that the bikers
> > prove that the
> > environmentalists are actually big hypocrites so they need to prove that
> > biking destroys
> > nature.  Get a life, you motorist!
> 
> Actually, most mountain bikers carry their bikes on their cars & trucks, because
> they are bored with all easily accessible trails & have to ride on trails that
> are far from their homes. True environmentalists don't drive OR mountain bike.
So what do you do Mikey?
John
Return to Top
Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa!
From: Mike Edgar
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:36:12 +0100
In article , Mark
Woodhead  writes
>In article , Mike Edgar
> wrote:
>
>> In article <32470D96.47D4@discover.net>, Chernobyl Cowboyz
>>  writes
>> >> And guess what, I suspect that Mike travels all the way to
>> >> work in his comfortable POLLUTING car. Oh, I forgot, pleople
>> >> like him don't have jobs, they are just a burden on the
>> >> welfare-system.
>> >
>> >No, not a burden.  He just sees that he doesn't want to add any
>> >ecological burden by working in the industry. 
>> 
>> >PHHHFFFFT! If it turns out this way, there will be lots of people
>> >(sadly) vindicated, but Vandeman ain't gonna be one of them. You do
>> >*real* people doing *real* work to save the planet a HUGE disservice
>> >by lumping Vandeman in with them.
>> >
>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >DANIEL CLEMENTS (Barrie, Ontario CANADA)
>> >
>> 
>> ..... and that's just your biased, and myopic opinion. Make sure your
>> kids and their kids know who to blame for their concrete wilderness
>> won't you.... ?
>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Mike Edgar      
>> It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Mike, I seemed to have missed your basis for linking the paving over of
>the planet with those who disagree with Mike Vandeman. Could you go over
>that again?
>
No,.... if you could not see it the first time, you never will.... 
>Mark
>
>P.S.  Were you going to respond to my last posting about your claims of
>"catastrophic" damage caused by mtn bikers. We're all still waiting for
>that evidence as well.
>
No I was not going to respond, but I've seen it, photographed it and
logged it, try doing the same............. and who's "we".. ?
Mark
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Mike Edgar      
It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to Top
Subject: Re: MTBers Trashing One of the Last Virgin Forests in Iowa!
From: Mike Edgar
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 00:39:44 +0100
In article , Mark
Woodhead  writes
>In article , Mike Edgar
> wrote:
>
>> In article <32470D96.47D4@discover.net>, Chernobyl Cowboyz
>>  writes
>> >> And guess what, I suspect that Mike travels all the way to
>> >> work in his comfortable POLLUTING car. Oh, I forgot, pleople
>> >> like him don't have jobs, they are just a burden on the
>> >> welfare-system.
>> >
>> >No, not a burden.  He just sees that he doesn't want to add any
>> >ecological burden by working in the industry. 
>> 
>> I doubt that Mike V would be a burden on any welfare system from choice,
>> but your "attitude" suggests that you certainly are a burden (far above
>> that which any living creature is by it's mere existence of course) on
>> any ecosystem.  
>> 
>
>Mike,
>  How can you possibly make a statement like the one above and continue to
>sign your postings as you do below? Nice?!? Does the term hypocracy mean
>anything to you?
>
>Mark
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Mike Edgar      
>> It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>rec.animals.wildlife,
>rec.backcountry,rec.bicycles.off-road,rec.bicycles.soc,sci.environment)
>
>In article , Mike Edgar
> wrote:
>
>> In article <32470D96.47D4@discover.net>, Chernobyl Cowboyz
>>  writes
>> >> And guess what, I suspect that Mike travels all the way to
>> >> work in his comfortable POLLUTING car. Oh, I forgot, pleople
>> >> like him don't have jobs, they are just a burden on the
>> >> welfare-system.
>> >
>> >No, not a burden.  He just sees that he doesn't want to add any
>> >ecological burden by working in the industry. 
>> 
>> I doubt that Mike V would be a burden on any welfare system from choice,
>> but your "attitude" suggests that you certainly are a burden (far above
>> that which any living creature is by it's mere existence of course) on
>> any ecosystem.  
>> 
>
>Mike,
>  How can you possibly make a statement like the one above and continue to
>sign your postings as you do below? Nice?!? Does the term hypocracy mean
>anything to you?
>
>Mark
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Mike Edgar      
>> It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Never heard of it Mark,.... but the term hypocrIsy does. My assessment
is based upon a) Your apparent instinctive trashing of any attempt by
Mike V, or anyone else who dares to suggest that we humans have NO RIGHT
to destroy wildlife and habitat in the pursuit of selfish pastimes, and
b) your unwarranted personal, detrimental remarks about him.
I only "know" about him via this ng,..... do you know him personally.. ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Mike Edgar      
It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Death Threat for Opposing Mountain Biking
From: snoop@et.byu.edu (joe)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 00:46:13 GMT
In article <324D652E.4057@pacbell.net>, Mike Vandeman  wrote:
>Mountain bikers will aparently go to any length, to continue their selfish
>pleasures, including trying to intimidate anyone who criticizes mountain
>biking. This example from Kansas University is just one of many such letters
>that you can expect to get if you say something that the bullies don't like:
Mike,
After reading more of your posts than I feel I deserve too, I've got to 
respond.  First of all, I really don't think that the silly kid who 
'threatened' you is the bully here.  The fact of the matter is, is that if you 
really feel that you life is in danger I would suffest you talk with the 
police rather than posting your personal problems onto the internet. 
You've already proven to everyone in the rec.bicycles.* newsgroups that you 
are vehemently opposted to mountain biking; you and the readers of these news 
groups have argued back and forth to no end about it... and I don't 
think that anyone has changed his/her mind on the issues.  Perhaps out of 
frustration, lately it seems that your posts are getting more and more mean 
spirited.  Do you really think that you are forwarding your cause by calling 
mountain bikes; idiots, bullies, ect. ? 
The truth be known I am afraid that you know all too well what you are doing.. 
By CROSS-posting these obvious trolls to all these news groups (ie. this post 
was sent to:sci.environment,ca.environment,ba.transportation,rec.bicycles.soc,
rec.bicycles.*)  You are trying to get imflamitory responces.. to ultimatly 
make mtbers out to be a buch of mean bullies who are out to get you.
I think that in this you are making a big mistake.  Most mtb riders would 
classify themselves as environmentalists, I personally am a member of the 
Sierra club, as well as being active in local environmental activities.  It 
seem like, in my neck of the woods anyway (Utah), that environmentalism, and 
environmentalists in general are having a difficult time in the public 
relations arena... 
As such, it would seem that you would do your cause more good by trying to 
find allies amoung mtbers rather than enemies.  Assuming, of course, that your 
ultimate goal in all this, is to advance your cause of wilderness 
creation/preservtaion.  You would perhaps be surprised to know that may local 
mtbers supported the recent creation of the 'Grand Staircase' national 
monument despite that fact that as a national mounument no off road riding 
will be allowed... many of us realize that mtb's do not belong everywhere...
This said, I would invite you to please stop trolling the fertile waters of 
the rec.bicycles hierarcy and try to bring up the level of your posts.
thanks,  jjh (idiot mtber.)
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Subject: Are Airlines Using High-Sulfur, Polluting Fuel?
From: rockaway@usa.pipeline.com(Bill Mulcahy)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 22:35:35 GMT
I recently got a Email from someone (who may want to be  
anomymous) on the question of the use by the airline industry 
of high sulfur polluting fuels. The first paragragh has to do with 
the question of if an additive is used to mask the black smoke 
from the burning of aviation fuels. I would like to work with 
individuals or any group to get the airlines to reduce their polluting, 
not only with their fuel, but with their noise. 
Bill Mulcahy 
http://pages.prodigy.com/NY/rockaway/safe.html 
"The only additive I could find was de-icing agents; these are a 
customer demand and generally added at the terminal/airport.  The 
location and season obviously are an overriding factor.  They 
are probably slightly toxic, but generally harmless when  
combusted with the fuel - not a significant impact. 
JPA, or Jet A, is made from either grade 54 (0.3% sulfur) or 
grade 55 (0.04% sulfur).  Both are basically pure kerosene. If 
you want to start a pro-active dialogue (simple issue, easy 
to communicate, reduce emissions), this is the place to START. 
Does not mean you have to stop there, but it is a good way to 
break the ice so to speak.  Try to have the airlines start 
a voluntary switch to only grade 55 for fuel.  The cost  
difference between the two is 0.75 to 2.0 cents a gallon and  
varies with the seasons.  This is a large expense when you  
figure out how much an airline uses, so the mitigation by your 
organization should be respected as costly and non-trivial. 
You would have to get ALL the airlines at any one hub to 
agree or you'd give one a competitive advantage." 
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Subject: Parks Do Not Protect Wildlife
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:56:13 -0700
September 28, 1996
Department of Parks and Recreation
Attn: Planning Section
P.O. Box 942896
Sacramento, CA 94296-0001
Re: The Purchase of Diablo Ranch
Gentlepersons:
     Yes, please purchase this ranch! But don't simply add it to
Mount Diablo State Park. We humans already have much more than our
                                                ____
share of the land of California. I don't have an exact figure, but
I suspect that only a few percent of the area of California is
still functional as wildlife habitat for our native species. Recent
research has shown that recreation, even activities which we have
always thought to be innocuous (e.g. a simple walk in the woods!),
can be harmful and even deadly to wildlife (see Wildlife and
                                                ____________
Recreationists, cited below). But common sense also suffices: don't
______________
we insist on not being molested in our homes? Why do animals
__
usually run away when we approach? Why are lands near cities,
farms, and developed parks depauperate in terms of species?
Obviously, the presence of humans is incompatible with the
                                     ____________
preservation of all of our biodiversity.
     (In case some still harbor the belief that at least
"primitive" humans knew how to coexist sustainable with other
species, note the comments of Stephen J. Gould (Bully for
                                                _________
Brontosaurus, p.110): "We must cast aside the myths of noble non-
____________
Westerners living in ecological harmony with their potential
quarries. The ancestors of New Zealand's Maori people based a
culture on hunting moas, but soon made short work of them, both by
direct removal and by burning of habitat to clear areas for
agriculture." See also
The End of Evolution, by Peter Ward -- cited below. He argues
____________________
convincingly that humans were responsible for the demise of most of
the large mammals of North America.)
     We believe that we own every square inch of the Earth, and
have the right to do what we want to it. This is precisely why we
are losing, worldwide, dozens of species per day. It is also
absurd! How does this relate to our parks? Parks are, potentially,
                                                      ___________
one of the most important areas for the preservation of wildlife
habitat. We rejoice whenever we acquire more land and convert it to
a park. But if we examine this conversion from the point of view of
wildlife, it may not be so rosy. Land that is in private hands may
                                                               ___
be heavily used, but often it isn't. On the other hand, land that
is designated a "park" is usually 100 percent accessible to the
public, and thus of potentially zero utility as habitat.
                                ____
     A park is nothing, without wildlife (wildlife = all nonhuman,
               _______
non-domesticated species, plants as well as animals). Without
wildlife, a park is nothing but a pile of rocks, which can't hold
our attention for more than a few minutes. By far the most
                                           ______
interesting part of any park is its wildlife, followed by
prehistoric wildlife, prehistoric humans, early humans, native
cultures and peoples, and early remnants of our own culture.
     And this is the order in which priority should be given. This
is partly due to the relative importance of these various elements
in a park (i.e., what makes a park a park, as opposed to a city),
                                     ____
but it can also be justified on the basis of what is most
vulverable: plants can't protect themselves from animals, animals
from native peoples, native cultures from the dominant culture,
etc. In other words, if we are going to continue to have parks that
are enjoyable to visit, and that offer a respite from the pressures
and relative sterility of the city, we are going to have to give
much more priority to wildlife.
____
     In recent years, the trend in our parks has, unfortunately,
been in the opposite direction. Park managers have given in to
pressure from various interest groups, so that lately, wildlife are
given only token attention. For example, the last time I visited
the Grand Canyon, three of the four ranger talks I heard were about
recent American visitors to the Canyon. The one talk about wildlife
was about all the fish that have gone extinct or are going extinct,
due to Glen Canyon Dam and our mismanagement of the river.
     Wildlife need a place to live, just as we do. That means a
place where they are not molested (from their point of view, of
                                        _____
course, not ours!). But humans think we own every square inch of
the Earth. We think we have a right to go anywhere we want. In 2
million years of human evolution, there has never been one square
inch of the Earth that is off-limits to humans (from which we
voluntarily exclude ourselves)! There have always been some places
that were difficult to reach, and hence were de-facto off-limits to
                                             ________
humans, but as technology has progressed, there are fewer and fewer
of these areas. Various kinds of cars and trucks, motorcycles,
boats, mountain bikes, sophisticated camping and climbing gear,
helicopter rescues, water stashes, and even freeze-dried foods have
all contributed to eliminating the last safe refuges of wildlife.
     There are two issues that relate to the impact of  management
on wildlife: spacial and temporal. In spacial terms, almost all
park lands are accessible to all humans during all daylight hours.
No special skills are required. This practically eliminates parks
as wildlife habitat. Even if there still are places where wildlife
have access, any of them can potentially be reached by people, once
                             ___________
the habitat is designated as a "park".
     In temporal terms, nighttime has historically been available
for wildlife to travel and feed unmolested by humans. Camping
eliminates that "loophole"! People can potentially camp or explore
(with the proper equipment, all of which is available) at night
now, anywhere they want to.
     Written regulations are only partly effective in curbing human
abuses (e.g. witness the "Sedona 5" brazenly mountain biking down
the North Kaibab Trail all the way to the Colorado!). The only
sensible, humane way to restrict human access to wildlife habitat
within a park is to close roads (eliminating easy motor vehicle
access). "Demotorizing" and "depaving" the park will go a long way
toward reducing human impacts to a sustainable level. However,
there still needs to be a prohibition against motor vehicles,
boats, horses, mules, and other such travel aids in the park.
Bicycles (and, of course, wheelchairs), since they are quiet and
nonpolluting, could be allowed in the park but never off-road!
                                               _____
(Replacing motor vehicles with bikes is an obvious improvement, but
allowing bikes on trails and in habitat areas is an equally obvious
step backwards!)
     Is this "fair"? Yes, because the same rules apply to everyone.
There is no reason that humans should have access to every square
inch of the Earth! In fact, there are very good reasons why we
shouldn't. It would not significantly reduce enjoyment of the park
if people had access only to a few locations, rather than
everywhere.
__________
     I would prefer that you designate this new "parkland" as a
"wildlife preserve", provide no access to it whatsoever (including
                             __
biologists, who are hard for wildlife to distinguish from other
humans), and even experiment with making it the first (?) area in
the world that is truly off-limits to humans. The wildlife will
thank you!
                              Sincerely,
                              Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
P.S. For more information and explanation, see my web page, listed
below.
P.P.S. Please share my comments as widely as possible.
References:
Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
                                       __________________________
Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random
_____________________________________________
House, 1981.
Engwicht, David, Reclaiming Our Cities and Towns: Better Living
                 ______________________________________________
with Less Traffic. Philadelphia: New Society Publishers, 1993
_________________
(first published as Towards an Eco-City: Calming the Traffic, in
                    ________________________________________
1992).
Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony
               _____________________________
Books, 1991.
Grumbine, R. Edward, Ghost Bears. Washington, DC: Island Press,
                     ___________
1992.
Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
                                                 ____________
Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
______________
Life on the Edge. A Guide to California's Endangered Natural
____________________________________________________________
Resources: Wildlife. Santa Cruz, California: BioSystem Books, 1994.
___________________
Little, Charles E., The Dying of the Trees -- The Pandemic in
                    _________________________________________
America's Forests. New York: Penguin Books USA Inc., c.1995.
_________________
Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden
                    ___________________________________
City, NY: Anchor Books, 1984.
Noss, Reed F., "The Ecological Effects of Roads", in "Killing
Roads", Earth First!
Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
                                        _______________________
Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
_____________________________________
California, 1994.
Sachs, Aaron, "Eco-Justice: Linking Human Rights and the
Environment". Worldwatch Institute, December, 1995.
Stone, Christopoher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal
                        ________________________________________
Rights for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William
__________________________
Kaufmann, Inc., 1973.
Vandeman, Michael J.,
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and
                     _____________________________________________
the Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.
________________________________
Whitman, Walt, Leaves of Grass. New York: The New American Library,
               _______________
1958.
"The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The
                         __________
Cenozoic Society, 1994.
Wilson, Edward O., The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Massachusetts:
                   _____________________
Harvard University Press, 1992.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Developer info requested.
From: Amiel Ferman
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 08:12:15 GMT
Joseph King wrote:
> 
> Our company makes re-usable software components and we need to be able to
> find ways of getting exposure for our components in our key markets. The
> three components we have now are intended for individuals who program their
> own applications in the scientific and engineering fields. Two of them
> allow people to organize large amounts of data in hierarchical
> relationships like that used in modeling real world entities. Our content
> model is robust, quick and flexible and is a means of opening up one's data
> to other applications via scripting or through integration with other
> software components. The biggest virtue of our components is that they are
> solid, well-tested and perform well defined functions while retaining
> enormous flexibility.
> 
> That is the context. One of the things I would greatly appreciate
> suggestions on is how to get the attention of individuals who write their
> own apps in the sci-tech/engineering fields. One of the thoughts I had was
> that alot of the products that find their way out into the market in the
> chemistry fields is inside research institutions, goverment organizations,
> and academic institutions. The question is, how to get their attention?
> 
> Help is appreciated.
> 
> jking.
I am a student and I just took a physics class. well I'm not going to 
tell you my life's story but I came upon some very interesting facts
that you should know about when preparing to the future :
1) The experiment was quite simple : The main theme was throwing
a metal ball down a long table. the results were tragic.
2) I found out that the gravitational constant is actually 
3.4 and as was specified by Newton. 
3) therefore I have concluded that the moon should crash into 
earth in about a year from now. (here's a tip : if you are around
Canda or Alaska - get out of there quick).
4) I guess that the government tries to hide that real good,
but I would appriciate it if the right people would change
the numbers in physics books. we don't have much time anyway.
5) By the way, in 10 years the sun would explode (also from
my calculations)  but it will be too late anyhow.
bye
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Subject: Re: Tropical ocean warming - are climate models wrong?
From: tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Date: 29 Sep 1996 01:57:27 GMT
Leonard Evens (len@math.nwu.edu) wrote:
: Hence, jsut as their colleagues in other
: branches of physics before them, climatologists have to try to be clever
: about working around such limitations and doing the best they can.
Minor correction here: that should read "just as their colleagues in other
branches *after* them". The *first* refereed paper that reported scientific 
results from electronic computations appeared in the meteorological journal,
Tellus, in 1950, entitled "Numerical Integration of the Barotropic
Vorticity Equation", by Charney, Fjortoft, and von Neumann. Yes, *that*
von Neumann. He felt that meteorological applications provided a good
proving ground for the use of computers in science, and he rounded
up the noted physical meteorologist Jule Charney to help him prove
his point. (I don't know anything about Fjortoft.) Von Neumann also
identified the dual purposes to which such models could be put, that is,
in understanding and predicting the outcomes of particular meteorological
situations ("weather") and in understanding and analysing the long term
behavior of the model system and comparing it with observed statistics
("climate").
The harsh criticisms of the use of computers to study climate are coming
from people who wouldn't know a barotropic vorticity equation if it
bit them on the behind, of course. It's worth noting that this application
which is being accused of being patently unscientific was precisely the one
chosen by the founder of scientific computing as the paradigm of a scientific 
problem to which computing could and should be applied.
mt
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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
From: smatt@indirect.com (Steve Mattingly)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:53:46 UNDEFINED
In article <324D4586.5762@pacbell.net> Mike Vandeman  writes:
>From: Mike Vandeman 
>Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Arrested in Grand Canyon
>Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:34:30 -0700
I hope you realize you are ranting here Mike.  Anyone with a psychological 
makeup like you will be on the "closely watched" list in most areas.  YOU are 
the problem...really.  Look at your ranting Mike and tell me MTB riders are a 
problem.
Here are a few examples of your pearls of wisdom.
>A good example of how mountain bikers reject anything that gets in their 
>way,and trivialize any damage they do.
>This is what passed for thinking, among mountain bikers.
>So? Who says you are guaranteed to be provided with thrills? Talk about 
>SELFISH!
>Anyone who questions mountain biking can expect to be called all kinds of 
>names and be threatened in every way possible, including being murdered. They 
>willstop at NOTHING to be able to keep getting their selfish thrills.
>Wildlife are infinitely more valuable than any human artifact.
>I wanted to stop this scourge before it got too big to handle.
>100% of mountain bikers ride where it is inappropriate (off road).
>YOU can't even control your own fellow MTBers, so why should anyone else be
>expected to do so?
>True environmentalists don't drive OR mountain bike.
Mike, get a grip here!  You really need to find someone to talk to.  How many 
voices are talking to you at once?  Please save the world for us Mike, by 
posting here I'm sure you'll really accomplish a lot.
Do you live someplace?   Do you use electricity?   Do you use paper, or ANY 
petroleum products?  I'm betting you DO compromise yourself daily.  If you 
were a true environmentalist you would shun all and head for the 
wilderness...or is even that perhaps forbid?  Then...should man exist at all, 
Mike?  
I hope you can get some help.
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