Newsgroup sci.environment 107332

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Subject: Re: Microwave oven water explosion -- From: wellsh@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Henry A Wells Jr)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictioRs -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Population Control -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Vanadium & nickel in crude oil -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Typical Joe Sixpack -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: More on Tragedy of the Commons -- From: ksahin@best.com (Koro)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Global oil production could peak in as little as four years! -- From: wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: More on Tragedy of the Commons -- From: dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones)
Subject: Dissolved Oxygen Probe -- From: luoj@nwton.ccs.tuns.ca
Subject: Re: Population Control -- From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Social planning & free markets -- From: steve.withers@ibm.net (Steve Withers)
Subject: Re: Ice Age Predictions -- From: jim blair
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major pr -- From: Dave Pettingill
Subject: Re: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!! -- From: rkadel@fas.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel)
Subject: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!! -- From: rkadel@fas.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Subject: Re: Bicycling vs. riding the bus -- From: aa492@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (John Milton)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: Elizabeth Moore
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: Elizabeth Moore
Subject: Re: Bicycling vs. riding the bus -- From: clements@bconnex.net (Daniel Clements)
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP with SCHOOL - Short Ecology Survey! -- From: Fernando M. S. Carvalho
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major problem with climate predictions ) -- From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!! -- From: ham@ix.netcom.com(William Mayers)
Subject: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!! -- From: ham@ix.netcom.com(William Mayers)
Subject: Re: Population Control -- From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Subject: Re: Population Control -- From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Subject: Re: Fossil madness -- From: Will Stewart
Subject: Re: Global oil production could peak in as little as four years! -- From: dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major problem with climate predictions ) -- From: TL ADAMS
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions -- From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Subject: "Parks Are For People" -- From: Mike Vandeman
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictioRs -- From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)

Articles

Subject: Re: Microwave oven water explosion
From: wellsh@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Henry A Wells Jr)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 16:11:33 GMT
  After 4
>: : minutes it had not boiled.  I shut off the microwave and reached in to
>: : check if the cup was hot.  I touched the cup for about 2 seconds.  It
>: : was warm to the touch and I started to remove it from the oven.  There
>: : was a "WHUMPH"  and all the water blew out of the cup and up my arm.
>: 
>:        I had the same experience with a glass tea-kettle,
>: which I had washed with a common kitchen compound, although
>: not dishwashing liquid.
>: 
This was not a chemical reaction. You just superheated the water. The 
mechanical shock of your touch triggered boiling and the "WHUMP". The water 
probably superheated more than usual because your cup was cleaner than usual.
Superheat "bumping" is a common effect in many liquids (well known to wet 
chemists) and common with water in microwaves. A few chips or broken china (or 
commercial "boiling stones" from a lab supply book will cure the problem.
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:35:52 GMT
In article 
,
   John Nahay  wrote:
>> What is so damned anti-environmental about a cost-benefit 
>> analysis?  Oh, I forget.  You watermelons are 
>> anti-capitalist!
>
>So, who says that a cost-benefit analysis IS 
anti-environmental?
>It just seems that those anti-environemntalists are just not 
mentally 
>capable of doing the math or modelling correctly to 
calculate the total 
>consequences of their actions.
>
>> So the ends justifies the means!  What a concept.
>> You are apparently an aetheistic, animal loving, 
vegetarian 
>> fool!  How dare you try to impose your moral views on the 
>> rest of us.
>
>And, how dare you impose your moral views on someone like 
people who wish 
>to have sex with children, or prostitutes.  
>Then you have absolutely no right to complain about people 
doing 
>absolutely ANYTHING they want.  I would let EVERYONE out of 
prison 
>because of people like you.
Good point.  I admit I got "carried away".
>
>
>So, now you OPPOSE cost-benefit analysis?  Is that what 
you're saying?
>You make no sense at all now.  Of course, mentally inferior 
people like
>non-vegetarians are not mentally capable of understanding 
the fact that 
>optimizing via cost-benefit analysis is just trying to get 
"positives to 
>outweigh negatives among all options", where the "means 
justifying the 
>ends" is just "any negatives, no matter how enormous (like 
you murdering
>and eating innocent vegetarian cows ) is justified if there 
is a positive"
>(like your taste buds).
I personally don't give a crap about "innocent" cows.  They 
taste good, so I eat them.  End of story.
Regarding optimization, you don't *even* want to go down that 
road.  The discussion would quickly degrade to constrained 
nonlinear optimization, how to properly select economic 
values, how to construct a good objective function, etc.  
This newsgroup isn't ready for this type of discussion.
>
>You are just a subhuman moron, since you can't stand a 
chance against any 
>of the arguments that scientists make about the effects of 
environmental 
>and economic impacts.
Watch out!  You're implying that you are a scientist.  With 
commentary like you are posting, this seems most unlikely.
Have a nice day.
Oh, BTW - cows taste good, so I eat them!
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:00 GMT
In article <54rpg7$hif@earth.njcc.com>,
   nahay@pluto.njcc.com (John Nahay) wrote:
>John Nahay (nahay@pluto.njcc.com) wrote:
>: And, how dare you impose your moral views on someone like 
people who wish 
>: to have sex with children, or prostitutes.  
>
>Just so no one gets the wrong idea: I fully support 
legalization of 
>prostitution and consentual adult sex and pornography.  I 
think that sex 
>with children should be illegal, but, maybe, at most, with a 
6 month prison 
>sentence. That's the most I'd impose my moral views on 
someone on that 
>matter.  But, meat-eating in this modern day (modern = ever 
since 
>agriculture was invented so we don't have to kill animals 
for food) 
>deserves a much bigger prison sentence.
>
I'm glad to see you have all your senses about you.  Preach 
on, you raving lunatic!
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:05 GMT
In article <54rpg7$hif@earth.njcc.com>,
   nahay@pluto.njcc.com (John Nahay) wrote:
>John Nahay (nahay@pluto.njcc.com) wrote:
>: And, how dare you impose your moral views on someone like 
people who wish 
>: to have sex with children, or prostitutes.  
>
>Just so no one gets the wrong idea: I fully support 
legalization of 
>prostitution and consentual adult sex and pornography.  I 
think that sex 
>with children should be illegal, but, maybe, at most, with a 
6 month prison 
>sentence. That's the most I'd impose my moral views on 
someone on that 
>matter.  But, meat-eating in this modern day (modern = ever 
since 
>agriculture was invented so we don't have to kill animals 
for food) 
>deserves a much bigger prison sentence.
>
BTW, cows taste good, so I eat them!
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictioRs
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:10 GMT
In article <54rpr8$hif@earth.njcc.com>,
   nahay@pluto.njcc.com (John Nahay) wrote:
>charliew (charliew@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>: It's also a funny old world in which sheep like you 
believe 
>: every "global warming" warning they hear, even though no 
hard 
>: evidence exists to verify these assertions.
>
>I will actually agree with you on this point.  Seems like 
there exist
(cut)
After your ranting about killing and eating animals, I 
realize why you don't like being called a sheep!
Cows taste good, so I eat them!
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Population Control
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:14 GMT
In article <32718822.202@livingston.net>,
   Don Staples  wrote:
>charliew wrote:
>> 
>> In article <327052DB.3E8C@ix.netcom.com>,
>> mfriesel@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> >mfriesel@unemployed.physics said:
>> (BIG BIG BIG CUT)
>> I agree, having been on the limb and not seen the hand 
writting.  Old 
>saying, "that which doesn't kill you, strengthens you" or 
words to that 
>effect.  I had two of the next generation, under 5 at the 
time, when my 
>time came to be the goat.  Perhaps I was lucky in being in a 
profession 
>and a locale where I stepped into my own business and 
managed to survive 
>the depression and  self doubt that follows.  
>
>the strong survive, and you will also, if you turn away from 
the jerks 
>behind you and concentrate on the future.
I agree with this conclusion *100%*.  It's tough to swallow 
your pride and get over your grudges.  However, that is 
exactly what must be done in cases like this.
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: Vanadium & nickel in crude oil
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:24 GMT
In article 
<01bbc34f$a2df5a80$LocalHost@70621.3462.compuserve.com>,
   "John S. Roberts" <70621.3462@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
>John Moran  wrote in article
><542941$287o@news.goodnet.com>...
>> life of the coke or anodes when used for the Hall Al 
smelting process.
>> Therefore, it;s desireable to start with crude with Ni & V 
levels that
>are
>> as low as possible.
>> 
>> Roger W. Faulkner (rfaulkner@interramp.com) wrote:
>> : I read some time ago that some venezuelan crudes have 
relatively high
>> : concentrations of vanadium & nickel. It is more than 100 
ppm in the
>> : crude, and can be as high as 1% by weigt in residual 
asphalts.
>> : 
>> : I wonder if these concentrations should be a matter of 
concern? In
>> : particular, some gas turbines use residual oil as fuel 
(especially in
>> : the winter when natural gas is in short supply), and 
these turbines are
>> : often in urban areas.
>
>1.  Aluminum smelters??
>
>2.  Nickel and vanadium are found in all crude oils to one 
extent or
>another.  The crude oils are processed through refineries, 
with the nickel
>and vanadium being deposited on either the
>hydrodesulfurization/demetallation catalysts or in the 
catalytic cracker. 
>The presence of nickel on the catalytic cracking catalyst is 
detrimental
>due to the formation of coke and hydrogen, which decreases 
throughput to
>the cat cracker.  Vanadium tends to also decrease catalyst 
life, but by a
>different mechanism.
>
>Nickel and vanadium in crudes will not be found in any 
products going
>through the refinery with the possible exception of some 
bunker fuels,
>which are extremely heavy materials.
>
>
It also winds up in pitch, which gets "coked".  The last time 
I looked, not many people were burning coke.  Someone else 
will have to add to this discussion.  Isn't coke used in 
steel making?  If so, do trace metal contaminants from coke 
end up in steel?  When steel is smelted, what is the 
environmental impact of heavy metals from this process?
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: Typical Joe Sixpack
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 96 17:36:18 GMT
In article <32723440.2E48@ilhawaii.net>,
   Jay Hanson  wrote:
>charliew wrote:
>
>> >I usually think of world capitalism as: a
>> one-dollar-one-vote system
>> >that contains a few relatively insignificant political
>> subdivisions.
>> >
>> >Jay
>> 
>> Don't tell me that you are naive enough to think that
>> socialism or communism will cure all the ills that are 
rooted
>> in human nature!  Gee whiz.  If ignorance is bliss, what 
is
>> stupidity?
>
>Don't tell me that you actually believe that is what I said? 

>
>If you are a typical Joe Sixpack -- and I assume you are
>-- then you are reminding us over-and-over that democracy
>has no absolutely chance. In other words, you remind us that
>humanity is simply not rational enough to make democracy 
work.
>
OK.  What kind of beer do I like?
BTW, you must be the typical two-martini luncher!
>See, for example, Ornstein:
>
>"Since the mind evolved to select a few signals and then
> dream up a semblance, whatever enters our consciousness is
> overemphasized. It does not matter how the information
> enters, whether via a television program, a newspaper 
story,
> a friend's conversation, a strong emotional reaction, a
> memory—all is overemphasized. We ignore other, more
> compelling evidence, overemphasizing and overgeneralizing
> from the information close at hand to produce a rough-and-
> ready realty."
>
>My entire phlisophy is available online. If you aren't
>rational enough to want to learn what it says, just go
>throw beer cans at stop signs till the big man with the
>iron face tells you what to do next.
>
Now, I've got to read your philosophy, as well as your 
babbling!  I'd better go get another beer for this one!
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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Subject: Re: More on Tragedy of the Commons
From: ksahin@best.com (Koro)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:41:25 GMT
On 24 Oct 1996 17:09:17 GMT, dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones)
wrote:
> ksahin@best.com (Koro) wrote:
> >Sure, they could invest in that "distribution mechanism" so they could
> >begin to turn higher anual profits and be able to sustain the profit
> >for many years (while a clear cut only gives you profit once, a
> >sustained harvest will just keep on giving).  
> >Gee, paying money now so you can turn a profit in the future.
> >Investment, what a concept!
> >					
>  
> Koro,
>  
> The point you are missing is that most of the putative values involved
> in these calculations are not captured, nor capturable, by investors.
> If you plant a forest in the Himalayas -- a pretty good idea -- who
> are you going to send a bill to a thousand miles downstream for the
> fact that you have reduced flooding on their famland?
>  
> Who is going to pay you for the oxygen your forest puts out, or for
> the carbon it has impounded?  Nobody.
Who in hell is talking about planting a forest?  I'm talking about the
use of currently owned forestland.
[snip - irrelevency based on false premise]
> The problem is this: specific actions very often have general
> benefits; since the general benefits cannot be charged for directly by
> the person carrying out the actions, it is necessary to invent
> intermediate structures to assess the benefits and identify the causes
> and costs wich bring them about.
True.  Then again, no one's going to pay you for such things.  So
what?  You're still turning a profit.  The rest is just out of the
goodness of your heart. ;-)
Hey, I'm breathing, which contributes to CO2 levels in the air.  That
helps plants.  I should be paid by every person who owns a plant,
including everyone who has algae in their bathtub tiles.  I want my
money, I deserve it!
> This is the basic problem of socialism -- of creating an artificial
> economics which serves social ends.  The fact that socialism doesn't
> work very well yet is an indicator of how difficult the problem is.
> Fortunately there have been enough big and obvious successes -- public
> health, general literacy education, forest conservation -- that some
> of the directions are clear.
Are you supporting socialism here or are you accusing me of being
socialist?
					KORO
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 12:43:00 -0700
Mike Asher, after some interesting examples of statments by 
extremists, replies ot Nudds:
'You're misunderstanding capitalism, of course.  All the succesful
socialists get stinking rich.  They just do it with money they've 
taken, instead of money they've earned.'
I respond:
I think that you misunderstand human nature.  People in advantageous 
positions attempt to increase their personal wealth and power 
regardless what economic system they belong to, while it has been 
proposed that any system will work well with the right people running 
it.  What you refer to as Capitalism can easily be confused with 
Gangsterism, where wealth is achieved through brute force.  I propose 
that wealth is often no more earned in Capitalist economies than in 
Socialist ones, and the issue you're concentrating on is a secondary 
one.  In both cases those with power and wealth will abuse the system 
whenever possible to gain more power and wealth.
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Subject: Re: Global oil production could peak in as little as four years!
From: wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (William Barwell)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 15:08:13 -0500
In article <01bbbcb5$8521ade0$68bd99cd@hanson.quick.net>,
hanson  wrote:
>Since Oil-(bio)-production began when the atmosphere was anoxic, I begin to
>worry about your problem, when we begin to measure significant drops in the
>oxygen content of the air. Til then, your perceived problem is artificial
>and exploited for profits by the oil industry AND by the many little
>enviromentalist-idiots. (Big industry and Lawers just love these little
>twitts and laugh their old fat asses off, when these poor young
>enviromorons do their dirty work, and do not even know what they are doing)
>anderer hanson (Not Jay Hanson)
>charliew  wrote in article
><546k68$6r0_001@pm1-93.hal-pc.org>...
>In article <32665F05.112@ilhawaii.net>,
>   Jay Hanson  wrote:
>>Kurt Foster wrote:
>> 
>>> Jay Hanson (jhanson@ilhawaii.net) wrote:
>>> 
>>> : Global oil production could peak in as little as four 
>years!
>>> :                                        ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ 
>^^^^^^
>
>All of this is much ado about nothing!  I was driving in 1973 
>and 1979, when the Arabs did the embargo thing.  I thought we 
>were running out of oil then.  Here we are approximately 20 
>years later.  Guess what?  We didn't run out!  In 20 more 
>years, we will still not have run out of oil.
>
>I'm sure my comments seem "out of touch with reality".  There 
>are only about 15 years of proven reserves in the U.S.  
>However, it costs money to look for oil.  In 15 years, 
>exploration companies will have spent a lot of money to find 
>"new" oil, and new technology will allow enhanced recovery 
>from "old" fields.
Much of the off shore area was off limits to exploration because vast salt
deposits in the gulf region made it impossible to search for oil.
Salt makes seismic mapping almost impossible. Until recently.
Now technical breakthroughs will open large areas to oil exploration that
are now technically unfeasible to search.
In ten years expect more reserves to be found as these technological
breakthroughs are exploited.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 13:17:48 -0700
Mike Asher wrote:
'As far as being an 'anti-environmentalist', I believe in having the 
purest
possible air and water, preservation of wilderness areas for present 
and
future use, and the use of cleaner, more efficient technologies to 
reduce
pollution.   I _don't_ believe that the world would be a better place
without people, or that science is evil.  This, of course,  makes me a
radical anti-environmentalist by today's standards.'
To which I reply:
It's more than extreme (or the loudest) environmentalists and 
pseudo-environmentalists who oppose science.  The fifteen-year slide 
in science funding is due directly to economic measures imposed by the 
Republicans and major ~Capitalist institutions.  The Republican's 
government budget-slashing economy (let me rephrase that - slashing 
the budget for social programs, i.e. those that give the public some 
kind of return for their tax money) decimated research funding, which 
also both directly and indirectly affected education in the sciences 
and other 'Liberal Arts'.  Bell labs, IBM, and others 'downsizing' 
eliminated most of their research staff.  The Democratic Congress 
rolled over and died in the face of money, well-organized propaganda, 
and a general public which doesn't catch on quickly enough to maintain 
a viable democratic institution - which is why we have a Democratic 
administration, albeit with a show of reluctance, supporting 
Republican philosophy.
To see this in action, take a look at the opposition to climate 
predictions and the conclusions of bona-fide scientists in this 
newsgroup.  Without exception the opposition to the findings of 
scientists comes from would-be experts of the right - those who refer 
to themselves as 'Conservatives' (but who are evidently not in the 
historic sense according to an historian friend of mine).  This is 
simply undermining science because the results and conclusions of 
scientists, however tainted by politics and economics, oppose the 
political philosophy of the right wing.  The modern conservatives are 
the greatest opponents of science I've experienced, and are worse 
because their philosophy guides much of American politics and media.
There are other sources than the media which are far more indicative 
of the truth.  My wife belongs to smocking groups which provide 
hospitals with gowns for premies and deformed infants.  The demand in 
Portland with a population of about 500,000, is 10(ten)/year.  In the 
Tri-cities where the Hanford nuclear reservation is, the demand is 
100-200/year although the population is 1/5 that of Portland.  Perhaps 
this is only due to stress, but when Whoops is up the number rises.
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Subject: Re: More on Tragedy of the Commons
From: dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 20:42:32 GMT
ksahin@best.com (Koro) wrote:
> (David Lloyd-Jones) wrote:
>> Koro,
>>  
>> The point you are missing is that most of the putative values involved
>> in these calculations are not captured, nor capturable, by investors.
>> If you plant a forest in the Himalayas -- a pretty good idea -- who
>> are you going to send a bill to a thousand miles downstream for the
>> fact that you have reduced flooding on their famland?
>>  
>> Who is going to pay you for the oxygen your forest puts out, or for
>> the carbon it has impounded?  Nobody.
>Who in hell is talking about planting a forest?  I'm talking about the
>use of currently owned forestland.
Ad the difference, in economic terms is...?
.
>> The problem is this: specific actions very often have general
>> benefits; since the general benefits cannot be charged for directly by
>> the person carrying out the actions, it is necessary to invent
>> intermediate structures to assess the benefits and identify the causes
>> and costs wich bring them about.
>True.  Then again, no one's going to pay you for such things.  
If the intermediate struture is a _government_, or even a regional
land management authority, I think it's fairly likely they are going
to.
>                                                       So
>what?  You're still turning a profit.  The rest is just out of the
>goodness of your heart. ;-)
If that's the way you think things work in forstry, I think maybe
you're posting to the wrong newsgroup.  This is economics.
Alt.new.age.aromatherapy is somewhere down the block someplace.
>Hey, I'm breathing, which contributes to CO2 levels in the air.  That
>helps plants.  I should be paid by every person who owns a plant,
>including everyone who has algae in their bathtub tiles.  I want my
>money, I deserve it!
If there were a shortage of CO2, that might be the way to go.
Unfortunately, as long as we're burning coal and chopping up calcium
carbonate for cement, that's not a problem we have to worry about.
Market price zero -- or perhaps far less.
>> This is the basic problem of socialism -- of creating an artificial
>> economics which serves social ends.  The fact that socialism doesn't
>> work very well yet is an indicator of how difficult the problem is.
>> Fortunately there have been enough big and obvious successes -- public
>> health, general literacy education, forest conservation -- that some
>> of the directions are clear.
>Are you supporting socialism here or are you accusing me of being
>socialist?
Why would anyone accuse you of being a socialist?  Socialists usually
start from at least some awareness of economics.
                                  -dlj.
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Subject: Dissolved Oxygen Probe
From: luoj@nwton.ccs.tuns.ca
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:39:59 +0000
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi, there:
Where can I find more info. about Dissolved Oxygen Probe that can 
resists at least 60 psi pressure? I want to buy it.
Thank you.
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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Dissolved Oxygen Probe Resisting Pressure

Dissolved Oxygen Probe Resisting Pressure




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Subject: Re: Population Control
From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:03:45 -0700
charliew states:
'
I agree with this conclusion *100%* (no grudges, etc.).  It's tough to 
swallow your pride and get over your grudges.  However, that is
exactly what must be done in cases like this.'
to which I reply:
Not so difficult to do either, and I like to talk about my experiences 
for a number of reasons, not the least that it is a chance for the 
inexperienced to obtain first-hand information about the organizations 
they may be working for, good or bad.
When the layoffs were announced the first thing Battelle did was take 
each of those laid off to speak with a psychologist.  The psychologist 
didn't want to let me go when the 1/2 hour was up because I had been 
telling her stuff like 'it's probably for the best' and 'if Battelle 
doesn't want to support their best scientists it's their decision' and 
stuff like that.  She evidently thought I needed to let out anger and 
frustration, because she was definitely encouraging an angry response 
toward the end of the session - I just didn't feel much, more like 
relief since I maintained my responsibity to my family by not quitting 
a well-paying job in a crashed science market, maintained my personal 
integrity despite exceptional pressure to play poiitics and give up 
science, yet I got out of an institution where I was simply rotting 
away from lack of challenge and opportunity.
There was a PhD mechanical engineer who evidently was nearly suicidal.  
Battelle had brought him up less than a year earlier from an 
educational institution, he had two kids in college, significant debt 
aggravated by a new house Battelle had helped him buy.  Eventually 
they helped him sell it, to their credit.  I was trying to find work 
for him, and I think he found a part-time teaching position.  His kids 
were advanced violin players and he had to return the instrument he 
had bought his son because he could no longer afford it.  Since I had 
four violins and one still on the bench (I used to make them on 
weekends when I had a shop) I gave them each one of mine (there's not 
much resale value for amateur instruments so it's not a big deal), and 
right now I play an old German violin which is about all I'm good 
enough for.  I look at this as creating a little good out of a bad 
situation.
But Hanford is in chaos.  So-called 'privatisation' is reulting in a 
crash in worker benefits and salaries, and extensive loss of jobs.  
Right now Flure-Daniels (the spelling may be incorrect) is evidently 
complaining to Battelle because the latter's benefits are better than 
the former's.  $100 deductable insurance is now $2000 deductable - 
e.g. not health insurance any more but increasingly expensive major 
medical insurance.  The market place in action, right?  For the 
benefit of all of us, right?  Returns on Battelle's 401k plans have 
been likewise dropping for years now from over 11%, while the stock 
market continues to climb.  More market magic, right?  Evidently there 
will be another major round of layoffs in January despite a promise 
last year that there would be no more.  Now, you may note that this 
situation is hardly conducive to cleaning the Hanford site.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Social planning & free markets
From: steve.withers@ibm.net (Steve Withers)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 09:52:01 -0500
In article <54r08q$jov@orm.southern.co.nz>,
bsandle@southern.co.nz (Brian Sandle) confused us on a higher level by saying:
>On sci.environment and nz groups
>
>Gary Elmes (gazza@iconz.co.nz) wrote:
>: In article <54j4em$n5p@orm.southern.co.nz>, bsandle@southern.co.nz (Brian Sandle) wrote:
>: >And a corollary of what you say is to make something scarce in order to
>: >change its value like housing when it is being produced more cheaply and
>: >should be mopre available as Graham infers. Or oversupplied like labour
>: >to devalue it. In other words the money is made the master rather than
>: >the economic servant.
>:
>: Sorry, who is "making housing scarce"?
>
>What is the economics which is making fewer people own their own houses?
>It is a system where you charge what you can get. It is so strange that
>the cost of carpeting a new house in New Zealand is equal to the cost of the
>timber in it. In a wool producing country carpet should not be very dear.
Recognizing this, I have no carpet in my house. The kids also don't have
asthma anymore.
I save thousands and they are healthier. Everyone wins - except Feltex.
--
*************************************************************
Steve Withers - Wellington, New Zealand
steve.withers@ibm.net / swithers@vnet.ibm.com
Canadian since '58 / Kiwi since '87 / OS2 since April '92
Life just keeps getting better!
*************************************************************
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Subject: Re: Ice Age Predictions
From: jim blair
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:00:29 -0700
Jan Schloerer wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the informative reply.
I plan to add some of the recent comments to my web page file on CO2, and 
certainly want to include yours. (I assume since you posted it you have 
no objection)
Notice that many of the files on my web page have comments from readers 
attched. I think this is one feature that makes newsgroups better than 
newspapers or magazines: letters to the editor can be attached directly 
to the article!
-- 
                     ,,,,,,,
_______________ooo___( O O )___ooo_______________
                       (_)
         jim blair        (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu)
for a good time, call http://www.execpc.com/~jeblair/
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major pr
From: Dave Pettingill
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 14:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
masher@tusc.net insists:
 > ...... I stand on the conclusion: 8 million annual malarial deaths are
 > primarily attributable to the DDT ban.
  You might begin by telling us
  a. when did the world wide ban begin,
  b. what world body instituted the ban, and
  c. when was the ban lifted?
  Dave Pettingill
  isobar@igc.org
------------------
blast from the past:
May 13, 1992
dr@ducvax.auburn.edu
sci.environment

.............. I found this in a text under
consideration for an introductionary biology course:
      "In 1955, the World Health Organization waged a major campaign 
    to eliminate malaria-transmitting mosquitoes from the island of 
    Borneo, now a part of Indonesia.  DDT is a chlorinated 
    hydrocarbon compound that sends insects into convulsions, 
    paralysis, and on to death.  It has been instrumental in bringing 
    mosquitoes and many other pests more or less under control.
      "DDT is a relatively stable compound; it is insoluble in water 
    and breaks down very slowly.  It is soluble in fat and tends to 
    accumulate in fatty tissues.  For this reason DDT is a prime 
    candidate for *biological magnification*, the increasing 
    concentration of a nondegradable substance as it moves up through 
    trophic levels.  DDT that gets concentrated in tissues of 
    herbivores such as insects becomes even more concentrated in 
    tissues of carnivores thta eat quantities of DDT-harboring 
    herbivores.  Concentration proceeds at each trophic level.
      "The decision to start a DDT-spraying program in Borneo was not 
    made lightly.  Nine out of ten people there were afflicted with 
    malaria - an epidemic by anybody's statndards.  The program 
    worked, insofar as the mosquitoes transmitting this terrible 
    desease were brought almost entirely under control.
      "But DDT is a broad-spectrum insecticide; it kills nontarget as 
    well as target species.  Sure enough, the mosquitoes had company. 
    Flies and cockroaches infesting the thatch-roofed houses on the 
    island fell dead to the floor.  At first there was much applause. 
    Then the small lizards that also lived in the houses and preyed 
    on flies and cockroaches found themselves presented with a 
    veritable feast.  Feast they did - and they died, too.  So did 
    the house cats that preyed on the lizards.  With the house cats 
    dead, the rat population of Borneo was rid of its main preditor, 
    and rats were soon over-running the island.
      "The fleas on rats were carriers of still another disease, the
    sylvatic plague, which can be transmitted to humans.  Fortunately,
    the threat of this new epidemic was averted in time.  Someone got 
    the inspired idea to parachute DDT-free cats into the remote parts 
    of the island.
      "But on top of everything else, some home dwellers found 
    themselves sitting under caved-in roofs.  The thatch in their 
    roofs was made of certain leaves that happen to be be the food 
    resource of a certain caterpillar.  DDT did not kill the 
    caterpillar, but it killed the wasps that were its natural 
    preditor.  When the predator population collapsed, so did the 
    roofs."
"Biology - Concepts and Applications"  by Cecie Starr
---
end quote
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Subject: Re: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!!
From: rkadel@fas.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 22:26:51 GMT
In article <54p2sp$ctn@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
William Mayers  wrote:
>
>
>>Last spam I got was one offering to morph my face into some child porn
>films
>
>You too?  I copied it to printer and called my local sherrif.  Ya know,
>New York does not at present have a law specifically addressing porno
>sent over the 'net?  
Doesn't need it.  The stuff that needs to be illegal is already illegal
anyway.
>Yeah, I couldn't believe it either!  Well, the
>sherrif accepted the printout and documented my complaint anyway,
>though the complete return address didn't show on the prints - I didn't
>have the presence of mind not to delete it so the sherrif's computer
>guru could download it onto disc.  If you've a complete address, I
>would appreciate it if you could get your department to send a copy of
>that data to New York's attourney general's office and to the Madison
>County Sherrif here in Upstate New York.
The person whose paper-mail address was in that message is the primary
*victim* of this.  Whoever sent out that email was trying to get him in
trouble.
>That kind of abuse SUCKS!  If they got pictures they can morph your
>face or mine onto, somewhere there's a child being abused....
>
Big if.  I don't really see any need to believe that the person who sent
this out actually has any child porn; there isn't any clear/easy way for
prospective "customers" to contact the person who sent the message (as
opposed to the person who was being framed by the message).  No one would
be dumb enough to actually try to sell child porn by sending out huge
numbers of ads to random individuals with their own name and street
address on them.
							Rachel
WARNING: A violation of US law is about to occur.  Please avert your eyes.
				"tits"
Ok, you can look now.  http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
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Subject: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!!
From: rkadel@fas.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 22:28:52 GMT
In article <54qsfp$1s6@news.one.net>,
Adam Ierymenko  wrote:
>In article <54npu4$65v@news.mich.com>,
>	jfd@mich.com writes:
>>Here's what I do... If it's "Cash.Text" or some other "Make Money Fast"
>>type post I exit my software (Which strips headers) fire up the dos text
>>editor (Which displayes the full header) and send to either "Postmaster" at
>>the real domain from which the message originated if I can decode it. or
>>"Abuse" at the same place (Both AOL and NETCOM have "Abuse" accounts you
>>should address to)
>
>If there's an address in the spam, you could ship them all your garbage,
>used cat litter, medical waste, hazardous nuclear materials, etc.
Sometimes (even often) a street address in a spam will be, not the address
of the sender, but the address of the person the sender is trying to get
back at.
							Rachel
WARNING: A violation of US law is about to occur.  Please avert your eyes.
				"tits"
Ok, you can look now.  http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:56:19 GMT
Dumb???  Ya,   Hohum.....
  Yep,  Jay Hanson  wrote on Fri, 25 Oct 1996
09:45:46 -1000 about:
   Re: Major problem with climate predictions 
>(charliew) wrote:
> : This is a real stretch.  Your conclusion has never been
> : demonstrated in the whole history of mankind.  This is a
> : prime example of what "turns me off" regarding the green
> : types.  You look at a present trend, then you extrapolate
> : this trend to the extreme, and conclude that we must change
> : our ways or else face doom.
>Charlie READ WHAT YOU WROTE and then perhaps you will
>understand why I don't talk to you liberdummies anymore.
>It will explain it to you this one last time.  We look
>at the present trends and say that we will face disaster
>if we don't change our ways.
>You don't like us to point that out because you say WE
>WILL CHANGE ANYWAY -- and then you use THAT as an argument
>not to change.  DUMB!  >Jay
I wonder if he figured it out?  Or is the dogma too deep
in his kind?  
       Rich Boys love Republicans because they seemingly don't  
               understand simple economics. 
     Rich Boys love Republicans because they seemingly don't  
               understand regressive taxation. 
    ================ VOTE REPUBLICAN! ==================
=== REPEAL RICHBOY'S TAXES!  ---  MORE REGRESSIVE TAXES! ===
    ================ VOTE REPUBLICAN! ==================
    FOR A HEALTHY MIX THE EXTREMELY RICH, THE EXTREMELY  
===     RELIGIOUS, AND THE EXTREMELY IGNORANT!          ===
    ================ VOTE REPUBLICAN! ==================
       Rich Boys love Republicans because they are so damned  
               happy to pay for the Rich Boy's debts.
        Rich Boys love Republicans because they can sing.  
                 (pee wee wee, all over me...)
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: bashford@psnw.com (Crash)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 23:04:46 GMT
  Yep,  Jay Hanson  wrote on Fri, 25 Oct 1996 
   Re: Major problem with climate predictions 
What a brain: 
>(charliew) wrote:
> : This is a real stretch.  Your conclusion has never been
> : demonstrated in the whole history of mankind.  This is a
> : prime example of what "turns me off" regarding the green
> : types.  You look at a present trend, then you extrapolate
> : this trend to the extreme, and conclude that we must change
> : our ways or else face doom.
>Charlie READ WHAT YOU WROTE and then perhaps you will
>understand why I don't talk to you liberdummies anymore.
>It will explain it to you this one last time.  We look
>at the present trends and say that we will face disaster
>if we don't change our ways.
>You don't like us to point that out because you say WE
>WILL CHANGE ANYWAY -- and then you use THAT as an argument
>not to change.  DUMB!   >Jay
Yep.
You would think that normal people would feel humiliated
to be constantly corrected with facts and logic.  Nope.
Not the Nature Nazis.  
That, or they really just like public humiliation?  
-  Growthmania kills what it promises. Ecology can deliver it.
--      Douglas bashford@psnw.com -- Middle-of-the-road extremist.
Science, Ecology, Economics, Environment, and Politics (title)
http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/e-index.html
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Subject: Re: Bicycling vs. riding the bus
From: aa492@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (John Milton)
Date: 26 Oct 1996 22:37:30 GMT
.6983@facstaff.wisc.edu:>
Distribution: 
It is my understanding that the damage to the road surface increases as 
the square of the axle wieght, not sure to what extent this is dependent 
on the design of the road.
jim blair (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu) wrote:
: Norman Castles wrote:
: > 
: > Thought i might throw my two cents in. Studies have been done in sweden
: >  and by the EPA in victoria in an attempt to assign $ values to damage
: > done by road transport..
: Hi,
: I would like to see some information on road damage as a function of 
: car/truck weight and number of wheels. From what little I have heard, a 
: few trucks do much more damage to a road than hundreds of cars. This 
: implies that while cars should pay more using the roads, trucks should 
: pay MUCH more.
: Any one with info on this, email it to me and I may include it on my web 
: page. I plan to add another file to go with the "gas tax" one there now.
: -- 
:                      ,,,,,,,
: _______________ooo___( O O )___ooo_______________
:                        (_)
:          jim blair        (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu)
: for a good time, call http://www.execpc.com/~jeblair/
--
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: Elizabeth Moore
Date: 26 Oct 1996 16:36:02 -0700
Michael Tobis wrote:
> 
> As for his reporting of the predictions of GCMs with aerosol forcing
> included, I am frankly suspicious. John, can you provide us with
> a reference, please? My understanding is that the transient global
> temperature signal is reduced when aerosol is included, but not by
> the extent that you suggested.
I would have to check my notes to be sure. I took them during a talk by Robert Balling, Jr. I believe that the relevant 
paper was in Nature a few months ago.
The graphs looked like a good corellation (to my eye). But I could be off by a bit on the total.
And frankly, I'm skeptical anyway because there are too many variables and too much feedback for me to be confident in ANY 
model that is only matching 150 years of the climatological record.
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Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: Elizabeth Moore
Date: 26 Oct 1996 16:44:04 -0700
A. Whitworth wrote:
> 
> In article <329c6c71.375418763@news.primenet.com>,
> ozone@primenet.com (John Moore) wrote:
> >They may study the politics of global warming, or the
> political impact
> >of the issue, or the construction of political systems that
> fit
> >someone's idea of a solution to global warming.
> 
> But that is the whole bloody point!!!!!!
> 
> You can study the physical consequences all you like but
> without some idea of the political forces that are maintaining
> global warming - or the political forces that some say have
> invented the whole idea of global warming - nothing will be
> done about it one way or the other. As many have been at pains
> to point out in this thread, the economy and the environment
> are interlinked, and an economy is a political and social
> arena as well as an economic one. Global warming is thus a
> climatological, environmental, political, social, and
> economical issue. No part of the web can be detached from the
> others.
I totally agree with you. This started out as to whether ecologists study global warming. It has gotten muddied from 
there.
The fact is that global warming has a huge political and eocnomic component... not in the physics (which is really what 
we were debating) but in the issue of whether to do something, whether it is POSSIBLE to do something with a reasonable 
political cost (which I doubt), etc.
My contention is that the global and political ramifications of the proposed CO2 emissions reductions will be so severe 
as to preclude any meaningful action. Furthermore, I believe tens of millions or more will die as a result.
I personally feel more certain of these outcomes than of the physical result.
I also must disagree somewhat with Michael Tobis, in that I suspect that biological effects may be fairly significant, 
probably as negative feedback.
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Subject: Re: Bicycling vs. riding the bus
From: clements@bconnex.net (Daniel Clements)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 00:28:32 GMT
shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) wrote:
>On the other hand, it's the trucks that bring people who live
>in the cities their food.  (I'm going to completely ignore the
>rail vs. truck issue here.)  If you made trucks pay substantially
>more for using the roads, the cost would come out of the pockets
>of everyone (rich and poor alike, they all eat about as much food).
Ahh... there's the case for real farms, not industrial farming
conglomerates who ship their "product" all over the continent.
Buy local, when ever possible. You will be extracting less from the
environment!
For example, after a nice long mountain bike ride through the woods, I
like to enjoy an all natural micro- or cottage-brewed beer that has
been brewed within a 150 kilometre radius of where I live.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
DANIEL CLEMENTS (Barrie, Ontario CANADA)
Return to Top
Subject: Re: PLEASE HELP with SCHOOL - Short Ecology Survey!
From: Fernando M. S. Carvalho
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:43:25 GMT
"Christian Forget"  escreveu:
> 
> 
> John A. Keslick, Jr.  a écrit dans l'article
> <326AC81F.7FCB@pond.com>...
> > 1.) Do you recycle? Yes, used tractor trailer inner tubes,  our tree...
> ...> organic tree treatment web site: 
> > http://www.ccil.org/~treeman/  OR  http://www.ccil.org/~kenm/env/
> > 
> Bonjour
> 
> Votre cause est très louable mais vous devez écrire en français dans ce
> "newsgroup"
> 
> Merci
>Une sugestion:ouvrez http://www.wbcsd.ch/wbcsd.html
Saluts.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major problem with climate predictions )
From: mfriesel@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 18:24:40 -0700
Mike Asher states:
'Your first point that DDT affects bird populations is an oft-repeated
falsehood as well.  During the years of heaviest DDT usage (from 1941 
to 1971) annual bird population counts conducted by the Audobon 
Society showed increasing population for every single common bird 
species:  8X increase for blackbirds, 131X for grackles, 21X increase 
for cowbirds, and a 12 percent increase in robins.  The increase in 
robin populations is interesting, because the Environmental Defense 
Fund, who testified in the 1971 DDT hearing, claimed that robins were 
'doomed' by DDT and-- even if the ban was implemented-- likely faced 
extinction.
After this information was released, environmentalists moved their 
focus to 'birds of prey': the osprey, bald eagle, and especially the 
peregrine falcon, all who had populations that were undoubtable 
declining.   However, Dr. Joseph Hickey, who also testified at the 
1971 hearing, showed that peregrine levels had showed a consistent 
decline since 1890, far outdating the use of DDT, and that hawks, for 
instance, had increased over 1200% from 1957 to 1967.
The specific agent claimed by environmentalists for declining 
populations was shell-thinning.  This is a common phenomenon among 
birds, caused by stress, diet, disease, and temperature variations.  
As thin shells were being noted in several bird species, it seemed to 
be easy to blame this on DDT.  But all studies attempting to link 
shell-thinning to DDT were unsuccessful and one (embarassing) study 
done to link shell-thinning to declining bird populations determined 
that a moderate degree of shell-thinning actually increased hatching 
and survival rates.'
To which I reply:
You've presented a lot of information and assertions, so it will take 
some time to examine all of the sources in detail.  I note, however, 
that there are some web pages dealing with the issue of DDT which can 
be found easily using a net search engine.  Of note is the U.S. Fish 
and Wildlifer Service page regarding the Artic Perigrine falcon at 
bluegoose.arw.r9.fws.gov/NWRSFiles/WildlifeMgmt/etc.  Read it and tell 
me what you think.  Meanwhile here's a summary:
- DDE, the principle metabolyte of DDT, prevents normal calcium 
deposition during eggshell formation.  Since everyone agrees on this, 
we're ok so far..
- pivotal action in the recovery of the peregrine falcon was 
regulation of organochlorine pesticides..a point of contention here,
- shells in artic Alaska still remain 12.5% thinner than pre-DDT era 
shells,..you don't deny it
-'noticable increase in productivity occurred in Alaska within a few 
years following restrictions on the use of organochlorines in the 
U.S.,..uh oh.. a point of contention...
References are provided on the webpage.  This report is a part of a 
study examining arguments to remove the falcon from the endangered 
species list.  The species had been in steep decline, a trend 
apparently reversed by the DDT ban. There is also a set of 
measurements presented which indicates a cause and effect between 
shell thinning and DDT.  The next step will be to examine primary 
sources and, as far as possible, experimental techniques.  Have you 
done this with your sources?
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!!
From: ham@ix.netcom.com(William Mayers)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:25:10 GMT
In <54u37b$73d@decaxp.harvard.edu> rkadel@fas.harvard.edu (Rachel
Meredith Kadel) writes: 
>
>In article <54p2sp$ctn@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>William Mayers  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Last spam I got was one offering to morph my face into some child
porn
>>films
>>
>>You too?  I copied it to printer and called my local sherrif.  Ya
know,
>>New York does not at present have a law specifically addressing porno
>>sent over the 'net?  
>
>Doesn't need it.  The stuff that needs to be illegal is already
illegal
>anyway.
>
>>Yeah, I couldn't believe it either!  Well, the
>>sherrif accepted the printout and documented my complaint anyway,
>>though the complete return address didn't show on the prints - I
didn't
>>have the presence of mind not to delete it so the sherrif's computer
>>guru could download it onto disc.  If you've a complete address, I
>>would appreciate it if you could get your department to send a copy
of
>>that data to New York's attourney general's office and to the Madison
>>County Sherrif here in Upstate New York.
>
>The person whose paper-mail address was in that message is the primary
>*victim* of this.  Whoever sent out that email was trying to get him
in
>trouble.
>
>>That kind of abuse SUCKS!  If they got pictures they can morph your
>>face or mine onto, somewhere there's a child being abused....
>>
>Big if.  I don't really see any need to believe that the person who
sent
>this out actually has any child porn; there isn't any clear/easy way
for
>prospective "customers" to contact the person who sent the message (as
>opposed to the person who was being framed by the message).  No one
would
>be dumb enough to actually try to sell child porn by sending out huge
>numbers of ads to random individuals with their own name and street
>address on them.
>
>							Rachel
>
>WARNING: A violation of US law is about to occur.  Please avert your
eyes.
>				"tits"
>Ok, you can look now.  http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html
>
>
Well, Rachel, I have been contacted again by the sherrif, and have been
assured that the mailing will be thoroughly investigated.  He has
forwarded my complaint - and others - to federal authorities.  Whether
or not this was an attempt by someone to "frame" another person, it is
still wrong, and I hope the perp does hard time.
btw - why do you feel it necessary to pull the bit with the 'avert your
eyes'?  
Bill Mayers
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Products that are good for you, and the environment!!
From: ham@ix.netcom.com(William Mayers)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:29:21 GMT
>Sometimes (even often) a street address in a spam will be, not the
address
>of the sender, but the address of the person the sender is trying to
get
>back at.
A further note: I've been informed that the address of the sender can
indeed be determined by someone skilled at extracting that data from
the material sent.  He tells me that what shows up on the screen is not
all the information pertinent to the mailing, and that tracing it to
it's origin - i.e. the account and thereby the identity, of the sender
is frightfully easy - IF you know how (I don't - yet. I plan to
learn..)
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Population Control
From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:46:42 GMT
In <54jsn1$7j4_002@pm1-85.hal-pc.org> charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
writes: 
>
>In article <326CF194.93C@ix.netcom.com>, 
>mfriesel@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>In my reply to Charliew I stated:
>>
>>>A capable government working for the good of the general
>>public is
>>>derilict >not< to enforce population limits if it is in the
>>public
>>>interest to do so.
>>
>>To which he replied:
>>
>>Thank you for making my point.  You apparently have no
>>problem in giving up all of your freedoms to some "higher"
>>authority that tells you they are acting in your (or the
>>public's) best interest.  I do not happen to share your 
>faith
>>in a benevolent bureaucratic federal or world government.  
>In
>>fact, I insist on keeping the right to make my own decision
>>regarding family size, what my family values will be, etc.
>>
>>To which I respond:
>>
>>The ultimate decision is always yours, as long as your 
>willing to pay 
>>the price.  What you want to do is drive down the price so 
>you can 
>>benefit by forcing others to pay.  Simple economics, eh?  
>Corporate 
>>executive material in the raw!
>>
>>Your rejection of authority which is acting in your best 
>interest is 
>
>(BIG CUT)
>
>Apparently you just don't "get it".  I have (in the U.S.) a 
>Constitutionally guaranteed right to life, liberty, and the 
>pursuit of happiness.  I take these words seriously, and I am 
>not about to let ANY government authority tell me how big my 
>family must be, or what my family values will be.  I intend 
>to raise my children as conservatives, with conservative 
>morals and ethics, whether you or other liberals like it or 
>not.  If laws are passed that make this illegal, I will still 
>pursue this policy, whether you or other liberals like it or 
>not.  And by the way, there isn't a whole hell-of-a-lot you 
>can do about it, either.
If laws *were* passed that make your behavior illegal, they 
could then have something they can do about it - by 
enforcing these laws.
Of course you would be right to resist that: laws
do not define right and wrong; and
disobeying bad laws is a citizen's first duty.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Population Control
From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 01:58:29 GMT
In <54jsnd$7j4_004@pm1-85.hal-pc.org> charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
writes: 
>
>In article <326D33DB.1C34@cciwa.asn.au>,
>   Martin Taylor  wrote:
>> Does an individual have the 
>right to use 
>unlimited resources, 
If s/he can acquire them honestly, certainly!
That's what property means.
>or to add a large number of 
>over-consumers?
Undoubtedly. There no law
against it in any free country, nor can there be.
>Do environmentalists have the right to have any children at 
>all?  
Sure they do. It is not *consistent*, but inconsistency
is not illegal.
>If you guys strictly enforced your stipulated policies, 
>you would all immediately commit suicide!  
But this act would have to be non-polluting!
Which method would you recommend?
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Fossil madness
From: Will Stewart
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:33:01 -0400
Karl F. Johanson wrote:
> Highly insulated homes tend to build up radon & it's daughters. As well
> formaldahyde, which out gasses from particle board can accumulate in
> homes. Energy effeciency solutions aren't all harmless.
Fortunately, we now have Heat Recovery Ventilators (HRV), that bring in
fresh outside air tempered by outgoing conditioned air. 
http://www.epa.gov/docs/RadonPubs/mitstds.txt.html
http://www.oikos.com/esb/40/maxtop.html
> >Inefficient
> >incandescent lighting can be replaced with fluorescent lighting.
> I'm not against florescent & compact flourescent lights (I use them
> myself) but they aren't as good a solution as they are purported to be.
> If it happens to be winter and you replace a 100 watt light bulb with a
> 27 watt compact flourescent you then need to get another 73 watts of heat
> out of your furnace (or whatever heater you use) to keep the house at the
> same temperature (then multiply that by all the bulbs you use).
So you use an efficient furnace instead of an inefficient light. You
actually supported the opposing point.
> This, of
> course, isn't a problem in warmer months.
Of course, an incandescent is a problem in warmer months.
> As well, he compact flourescent
> bulb (because of the nature of the balast) can draw up to twice it's
> rated 27 watts while only showing 27 watts on your home power meter. 
Please explain.  Since this is a science group, don't be afraid to use
electrical engineering terms and formulas.
> This
> can also happen with some iron core electric motors. 
Are you suggesting a power factor effect??
> Power companies such
> as BC Hydro have had to adjust their power estimates to account for
> compact flourescents.
Evidence?
> Compact flourescents produce more waste per bulb than incandescents &
> they require more energy to manufacture. 
Compact fluorescent bulbs now have reusable ballasts, with just the bulb
itself that is disposable.  And CFBs last about 10 times longer than
incandescent bulbs, requiring less waste and resources for a given lumen
level per time period.
> Some flourescent lights use PCBs
> in their balasts.
Name manufacturers and models in production, with the amount of PCBs.
Then describe how the PCBs become airborne.
> >Solar
> >can be used to replace existing fossil fuel powered plants.
> 
> The entire worlds production of solar voltaics is no where near enough to
> close down a single 1,000 megawatt fossil fuel plant a year. 
Why is a year important?  How long did it take for the auto to replace
the horse?
> And what
> about the radioactive materials released from hard rock mining the
> materials to make the solar voltaics. 
As if coal and uranium mining are innocuous.  And of course, the
smokestack issue of radioactive particulate from burning coal doesn't
occur with photovoltaic generation.
Cheers,
-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.
"Troll:
     A deliberately disrupting, confused and incorrect
     post (or one posting trolls) to a Usenet group to
     generate a flurry of responses from people called 
     "billygoats" trying to set the record straight.
     Other trollers enter the fray adding more and more
     misinformation so that the thread eventually dies of
     strangulation.  Trolls/trollers cannot be affected
     by facts or logic."    - bashford@psnw.com
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Global oil production could peak in as little as four years!
From: dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 02:37:39 GMT
B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>
>I do hope your knowledge of nuclear issues is better than your
>history, you got *both* the location and date wrong :-)
>From the sci.chem FAQ...
>
>31.7  Did molasses really kill 21 people in Boston? 
>
>  THE GREAT BOSTON MOLASSES FLOOD
>  "On Jan. 15, 1919, the workers and residents of Boston's North End, mostly 
>  Irish and Italian, were out enjoying the noontime sun of an unseasonably 
>  warm day.
Honey, the detail are not the main point I got the important part
right.  Molasses had killed more people than nuclear power in the US
in this century -- by a factor of probably seven to one.  And that's
spotting you Karen Silkwood.
                                        -dlj.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 02:32:06 GMT
In <54rpg7$hif@earth.njcc.com> nahay@pluto.njcc.com (John Nahay)
writes: 
> [...] I fully support legalization of 
>prostitution and consentual adult sex and pornography.  I think that
sex 
>with children should be illegal, but, maybe, at most, with a 6 month
prison 
>sentence. That's the most I'd impose my moral views on someone on that
>matter.  But, meat-eating in this modern day (modern = ever since 
>agriculture was invented so we don't have to kill animals for food) 
>deserves a much bigger prison sentence.
What penalty would you impose on meat-eating animals?
Just curious...
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Environmentalists responsibility for human deaths (was Re: Major problem with climate predictions )
From: TL ADAMS
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:40:58 -0700
Mike Asher wrote:
> The specific agent claimed by environmentalists for declining populations
> was shell-thinning.  This is a common phenomenon among birds, caused by
> stress, diet, disease, and temperature variations.  As thin shells were
> being noted in several bird species, it seemed to be easy to blame this on
> DDT.  But all studies attempting to link shell-thinning to DDT were
> unsuccessful and one (embarassing) study done to link shell-thinning to
> declining bird populations determined that a moderate degree of
> shell-thinning actually increased hatching and survival rates.
Mike, you don't know beans about biology.  The same manner that DDT
affects the chitin mechanism in insects is an analog to the ovaduct
calcideposit mechanism in birds.   If you want to get a book on avian
physiology, which is not a gradulate level course that I took but my
comparitive Phys instructor was an expert, then you can find numerous
referencs. It is a standard lab expermiment to disrupt the ova calcium
mechanism with DDT.  Any med student can show it.  Unless your stating
that the whole avian physiology research industry is wrong.
> 
> The problem with DDT is that primarily that it is easy to detect, and tests
> will show its presence down to levels of less than 1 part per trillion.
> Thus, even though DDT is rapidly destroyed in the environment (having a
> "half-life" of approximately 16 days when in water), vanishingly-small
> quantities can be found years later.  The worldwide ban on EPA is truly > one of the great tragedies of modern history.
Again, checking some PQL and MDL levels for commonly occuring CERCLA 
chemicals, I see nothing spectacular about the detection levels of DDT.
Where you found your environmental degradation of DDT is beyond me. 
Suffice to say that the elevated levels in the part per million range
that is still being found in terminal preditors is proof that you are
wrong.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw)
Date: 27 Oct 1996 02:51:40 GMT
In 
Kathryn Ostertag  writes: 
>
>The Endangered Species Act has been a great help in saving many
animals, 
>such as the peregrine falcon, the red wolf, the bald eagle, and the
list 
>goes on and on.  I hope that everyone here is going to be backing it,
so 
>our children's children can enjoy the same species of animals and
plants 
>that we have been able to enjoy.
I haven't enjoyed any of the species listed here!
I've never met them, and probably wouldn't have enjoyed it 
if I did...
Nevertheless, I believe bird and mammal species ought to be
preserved, though not necessarily in the wild.
It is different with insect species, there are
so many of them. We could lose half and never notice.
Return to Top
Subject: "Parks Are For People"
From: Mike Vandeman
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:51:01 -0700
October 24, 1995
Board of Directors and Planning/Stewardship Department
East Bay Regional Park District
2950 Peralta Oaks Court
P.O. Box 5381
Oakland, California 94605-0381
Re: Draft Master Plan 1996
Gentlepersons:
     I just re-read my November 9, 1995 letter to you on this
Master Plan revision. One hundred percent of it is still valid.
Please append that letter to my current comments. In other words,
you didn't listen to any of it. It is obvious that you have no
intention of listening to any comments, unless they conform to your
basic goal of turning all of our parks and the precious resources
they contain into human playgrounds. Although you pay it lip
service, protection and restoration of wildlife and wildlife
habitat is your lowest priority. This is clearly visible in your
conversion of essential habitat to golf curses (was that typo just
an accident?), campgrounds, picnic areas, parking lots, roads
(which you euphemistically call "trails"), and "firebreaks". It is
blatant, when a threatened Alameda whipsnake is killed by a
mountain biker at Black Diamond Mines, and your park supervisor
says it's "not significant".
     We are in the midst of an extinction crisis. The IUCN
(International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural
Resources), publisher of the Red Data Books, recently reported that
                             ______________
one quarter of all animal species in the world are threatened with
extinction. But you needn't worry about that, because, as Director
Jocelyn Combs says, "Parks Are For People".
     Most of this threat is due to loss of habitat. This can
consist of complete destruction of the habitat, such as when it is
turned into a campground, or simply the presence of too many people
too much of the time, causing the wildlife to abandon the area. In
Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, where your parks are located,
wildlife have already lost approximately 95% of their habitat. The
regional parks, and a few other "protected" areas, are their last
refuge. Obviously, they can't afford to lose any more. But, of
course, that is not your concern, since "Parks Are For People".
     Why is this important? Besides the obvious moral obligation to
protect the other species with whom we share the Earth, and on
which we are heavily dependent, you can't have a "park" without
wildlife (i.e., all nonhuman, nondomesticated species). It would be
nothing but a pile of rocks! Have you visited a quarry lately? Did
you have fun? Just as you can't have much of a marriage unless you
ensure that your spouse is healthy and happy, wildlife need to be
given top priority in our parks and other remnant habitat areas. (I
      ____________
see no reason why protecting wildlife and wildlife habitat couldn't
be the only purpose of the Park District; that is the sine qua non
       ____                                           ____________
that makes all other park uses possible!) The East Bay Municipal
Utility District manages to do that, on their watershed lands; why
can't you? Oh, I forgot: parks are for people.
     Expanding the park system seems like a good thing, until one
realizes that your primary goal is to increase human access to the
                                      _____________________
parks. When dealing with wildlife, the most important viewpoint is
that of the wildlife themselves. Clearly, they prefer, and hence
need, to be left alone. Fostering expanding the number of human
(and domesticated animal) visitors to the parks, expanding our area
of influence, expanding "visiting hours" (e.g. by allowing
overnight camping), and allowing mechanical aids (e.g. mountain
bikes or climbing equipment) that make access to wilderness areas
easier, can only drive our local wildlife closer to extinction.
     Humans are relatively flexible; we can satisfy our needs in
many ways. In particular, most of the "needs" that are satisfied by
the parks (e.g. for golfing, archery, horseback riding, bicycling,
swimming, camping, and picnicking, etc.) can also be met by other
means, and therefore should be met by other means. Parks are not
                     ______
profit-making businesses, that have to continually attract new uses
and new users, and maximize the exploitation of their available
resources. If they were, they would soon be bankrupt, just as the
                   ____
rest of our society is experiencing (running out of wood, seafood,
drinking water, oil, farmland, etc.). Parks and other preserves
must operate on exactly the opposite principle: protect and
preserve all existing resources, since they cannot be recreated.
Unlike us, wildlife are not very flexible, and cannot be. They need
                                               ______
the natural environment in which they evolved -- basically, as it
was when man first arrived here. They have no choice; not only
can't they evolve fast enough to keep up with our changes to their
environment, but they have nowhere else to go! But since parks are
for people, who cares?
     For some reason, a large proportion of the District staff,
from General Manager Bob Doyle on down, seem to believe that they
are operating a major resource-exploiting corporation, and that
they need to maximize the use of those resources (by humans, of
                                                     ______
course!), and in particular, that they need to devote a great deal
of energy to protecting and perpetuating their jobs, rather than to
                                               ____
protecting the natural resources on which the entire "empire" is
constructed. Where did they get these crazy ideas? Certainly not by
                                                             ___
consulting the wildlife.
     Anyone who loves nature will be sickened by this master plan.
                                     ________
It is basically a blank check to allow the Park District to do
anything they want -- to continue moving the District toward the
Disneyland or Marine World model -- to give the public anything it
wants. It doesn't contain a single restraint or performance
       ____________________________________________________
standard! We are apparently just supposed to trust you! The Draft
_________
document is full of lies and meaningless words: "expanding  ...
camping opportunities by carefully adding new sites" (p.22),
                         _________
"provide a balanced system of regional parks" (p.25), "strike the
           ________
appropriate balance between protection and recreation", "the ...
___________ _______
level of resource protection or recreational use appropriate for
                                                 ___________
the area", and "will classify ... parklands" (p.31), "create
                     ________
strategies ... that improve service to the region" (p.39), and
                    _______
"growing demand for services (p.50). None of these vague,
         ______                      ____
propagandistic terms are defined. Since you don't promise to adhere
to any performance standards, we have no way to tell if, for
example, you have added a new campsite "carefully" enough! You have
proven untrustworthy many times in the past (e.g. Assistant General
Manager Jerry Kent cut down a tree on top of Vollmer Peak, and then
called it "trimming" the tree). Why should we trust you in the
                                ______________________________
future?
_______
     The problem with letting the "public" dictate what happens in
the parks is that the most important part of that "public" is never
consulted, in fact is never even "at the table": wildlife. (I guess
that's because parks are for people.) Almost every speaker at the
hearing I attended was asking you to satisfy some selfish need of
theirs. (E.g. the mountain bikers wanted you to change the term
"footpath" to "single-track trail", because they think that will
make it easier for them to get access to those trails!) You should
                                                            ______
listen to people, but you should be able to put their requests in
the proper perspective, and not feel that you have to comply with
every request. And you should pay the most attention to people like
                                      ____
me and Mr. Flasher, who speak up for those who can't defend
themselves -- wildlife, for example, and the dead (fossils and
              ________
native American remains). You are under no obligation to satisfy
every human need within the parks. Parks are, in fact, for
satisfying needs that cannot be satisfied elsewhere.
                      ______
     The most disturbing thing about the plan is that it is full of
lies. This is the kind of thing we expect from a dictatorship or
"banana republic", not from a supposedly democratic institution! Is
preserving your jobs that critical, that you are willing to
                     ____
jettison all of the values that made this country great?
     Premier among those lies is the one big lie on which the
entire plan is based: that you can have your cake, and eat it, too:
that you can use natural resources, and at the same time preserve
them: "to maintain a careful balance between the recreational use
of parklands and the need to protect and conserve them for all to
enjoy" (p.1). The key to maintaining this lie is that you call all
of your incremental changes "insignificant" (such as the killing of
a threatened snake), ignoring the fact that, since the parks are
finite, those so-called "insignificant" changes soon add up to very
______                                                         ____
significant damage. A sampling of other lies: "Populations of
listed species will be monitored through periodic observations of
their condition, size, habitat, reproduction, and distribution"
(p.11); "Park improvements will be designed to avoid or minimize
impacts on wildlife habitats, plant populations, and other
resources" (p.40); and "lower intensity recreational activities
(like ... backpack and horseback camping, riding, and bicycling)"
(p.42).
     Also disturbing is the great emphasis you place on money. The
only reason you require so much of it, is that the parks are
managed like human playgrounds. Almost every Board agenda contains
a request for the purchase of another motor vehicle! One dangerous
aspect of this trend is that you are now considering "selling" the
parks to the highest bidder: "the District will seek gifts, grants,
and other forms of financial and operational support, including
possible site development and operation by others" (p.22); "Leases
will be negotiated to ... maximize revenue to the District" (p.48);
"Actively seek individual, business and corporate sponsorships"
(p.52). If you don't have any performance standards, and haven't
lived up to those you had in the past, I can imagine how well
outside commercial and other interests will be concerned with
protecting the natural resources in the parks!
     The bottom line is that the plan has a lot of verbiage
dedicated to making a good impression, but current District
                                           _______
management is not sustainable, so the expanded resource
                                      ________
exploitation proposed in this plan, containing even fewer standards
and constraints than exist today, will be even less sustainable.
                                               ____
And I can't see how this situation can be fixed, short of firing
the current General Manager and Assistant General Manager, and
starting over. Does the Board have the guts to tell the truth, and
do what is right? I doubt it, because most of them seem to agree
that "Parks Are For People".
                                   Sincerely,
                                   Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
               http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles/
References:
Foreman, Dave Confessions of an Eco-Warrior, New York: Harmony
              _____________________________
Books, c. 1991
Jamison, Deborah, Species in Danger in our Own Backyard, Volume I.
                 _________________________________________________
Endangered, Threatened, and Rare Species in the South San Francisco
___________________________________________________________________
Bay Area, Peninsula Conservation Center Foundation, Palo Alto, CA,
________
1992.
Life on the Edge -- Volume I: Wildlife.
______________________________________
Myers, Norman, ed., Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management, Garden
                    ___________________________________
City, NY: Anchor Books, c. 1984
Noss, Reed F., "The Ecological Effects of Roads", in "Killing
Roads", Earth First!
Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
                                        _______________________
Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
_____________________________________
California, 1994.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions, WARNING: LONG BORING POST
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 96 02:25:18 GMT
In article <327269C4.5ADC@ix.netcom.com>, 
mfriesel@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Mike Asher, after some interesting examples of statments by 
>extremists, replies ot Nudds:
>
>
>'You're misunderstanding capitalism, of course.  All the 
succesful
>socialists get stinking rich.  They just do it with money 
they've 
>taken, instead of money they've earned.'
>
>I respond:
>
>I think that you misunderstand human nature.  People in 
advantageous 
>positions attempt to increase their personal wealth and 
power 
>regardless what economic system they belong to, while it has 
been 
>proposed that any system will work well with the right 
people running 
>it.  What you refer to as Capitalism can easily be confused 
with 
>Gangsterism, where wealth is achieved through brute force.  
I propose 
>that wealth is often no more earned in Capitalist economies 
than in 
>Socialist ones, and the issue you're concentrating on is a 
secondary 
>one.  In both cases those with power and wealth will abuse 
the system 
>whenever possible to gain more power and wealth.
In this particular case, I happen to agree with you.  Power 
corrupts - and absolute power corrupts absolutely!
Note that this cliche (and conclusion) is independent of the 
particular choice of political or economic system, as it is 
strongly tied to human nature.
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictioRs
From: charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 96 02:25:26 GMT
In article ,
   Nick Eyre  wrote:
>In article <54rjk3$6r0_003@pm0-61.hal-pc.org>, charliew 
(BIG CUT)
>>>
>>>      Classic debate tactic.  When your question has 
>>>been definitively answered, come up with more difficult
>>>questions and don't acknowledge the definitive answer!
>>>      But in answer to these queries, look at the Hadley 
>>Centre
>>>web site (I provided a link to a figure).   That will 
>>>give you some idea of the range and variability.
>>>
>>
>>This is in fact not a classic debate tactic.  The *ONLY* 
time 
>>I have ever seen absolutely definite data was in college 
>>while reading homework problems out of a text book.  There 
is 
>>noise in *every* measurement taken from nature, whether you 
>>environmental types like it or not.  The only way to know 
>>reality from fiction is to take great care in data 
>>collection, and to do a thorough statistical analysis of 
that 
>>data.  To imply otherwise is fool-hardy when your 
conclusions 
>>will lead to big changes in public and economic policy.
>>
>But not as foolhardy as pouring 6GT/year of C into the 
atmosphere.
>
>
If you already know the answer you are looking for, why waste 
everyone's time, effort, money, and energy, trying to 
properly do the science?  You obviously are intelligent 
enough to have determined before-hand that 6GT/year of carbon 
is too much to dump into the atmosphere.  Gee, I'm glad that 
the world has such a talented gent that we can save all of 
this time and effort, and just get on with the cleanup!
BTW, Mr. genius.  What is the most cost effective way of 
scaling back carbon emissions, what time frame should this be 
done in, and what amount of carbon emissions are 
"acceptable"?
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com
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