Newsgroup sci.environment 107636

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"Knowledge is proud that it knows so much, 
 Wisdom is humble that it knows no more."
--
 "I wouldn't join a club that had me for a member!"
redflag@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

In article <3274247D.5232@ix.netcom.com>, 
mfriesel@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>after I write...
>
(cut)
>Now you come in and say that corporate wealth may have 
nothing to do 
>with resource depletion.  Actually I believe your statement 
is half 
>true, but it still has nothing to do with the issue.  I 
think the case 
>of Brazil and elsewhere - third world countries deep in debt 
to 
>international lenders - is an argument against the general 
truth of 
>your statement.  Destruction of the rain forest is in part 
fueled by 
>the necessity of extracting the country's resources to pay 
interest on 
>the debt, and part to enrich the, uh, well, if they're not 
>corporations you tell me what they are.  This is precisely 
the same 
>trick Reaganomics foisted on the U.S., by the way, and 
millions of 
>suckers are still reciting 'trickle down, trickle down, 
>OOOOOOMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm.
A good point indeed.  The world bank is apparently not doing 
any favors for those who get ensnared by its money.
(cut)
>By the way, if you want to get snooty you can call me Dr. 
Friesel.  
I had no intention of getting snooty.  However, if you want 
to go this route, I will ask you to call me Master W.  Yes, I 
admit that I have less education than you.  Now the whole 
world knows it.
I 
>usually don't use my titles because I like discussion to 
take place 
>face-to-face where items of discussion are weighed on their 
own merits 
>rather than being either propped up or weighed down by 
externals.  I 
>worked hard for this degree - I was an Illinois state 
scholar, I 
>worked 36 months on the railroad to afford my education, I 
finished my 
>undergraduate work in 2 and 1/2 years with honors despite 
having to 
>start out of sequence with upper division Physics.  Only six 
of us of 
>an original class of 42 completed the honors chemistry 
sequence, I 
>completed Dr. McNeil's work-at-your-own-pace experimental 
physics 
>course in half the semester, I completed the entirety of my 
coursework 
>without a skip despite being run down by a car and being in 
the 
>hospital for three weeks with a fractured leg, a broken 
back, and 
>Bell's paralysis (now there's a fine coincidence!), and 
despite living 
>in the office behind the electronics lab for a semester 
because I had 
>nowhere else to go. I outperformed and outlasted an MIT 
alumnus among 
>others in graduate school, and I got three publications from 
my 
>dissertation.  
Very admirable.
I had one twit at the University of Illinois in 
>Champaign make an unprovoked comment about grade inflation 
to a friend 
>who took the time to support my application, and I got 
treated like 
>some kind of servant by Battelle twits who barely have the 
>intelligence to turn on a light.  People who want to talk 
with me 
>instead of to me can call me Mark, Friesel, or whatever, and 
other 
>more flavourful names if I talk like an ass, but if you want 
to get 
>snooty you can call me Dr. Friesel or take yourself and your 
attitude 
>and (concept deleted out of consideration for younger 
members of the 
>audience).
I think the medium (email) didn't adequately convey the 
intent of my former posting.  I apologize if it was 
misinterpreted.  BTW, thanks for the additional information 
in your followup.  I think I understand the point you were 
originally trying to make.
Have a nice day.
===================================================================
For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
http://www.hamblin.com

New newsletter from Russia (in English) via email (4-6 Kb, in English). 
Reply for Summary and details.

Lawrence Boul wrote:
  The only way to preserve the native environment is ACTIVELY.  This
> means captive breeding programmes, predator erradication etc.  The cost of
> this must be bourne by the public purse - the only way this can happen is if
> the public care.  If they cannot get out and enjoy their wilderness they won't
> care.
This is a myth. It sounds good, but I doubt that you can offer any
proof.
> Hypothetically I can acknowledge that hiking etc disturbs wildlife.
> Undoubtedly more active recreation does have an impact. The beneficial effect
> of this however, is individuals who have a genuine care and affection for the
> great outdoors.
And also individuals who love to exploit it. Like you. There is
no unilateral beneficial effect, as you would like to believe. 
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles

http://www.teleport.com/~botlbill

charliew says, in response to my display of temper (tell me if this is 
better, Axel):
>I had no intention of getting snooty.  However, if you want
>to go this route, I will ask you to call me Master W.  Yes, I
>admit that I have less education than you.  Now the whole
>world knows it.
and says also in reponse to my self-aggrandizement:
>Very admirable.
and continues to remain embarrassingly (to me) polite and say:
>I think the medium (email) didn't adequately convey the
>intent of my former posting.  I apologize if it was
>misinterpreted.  BTW, thanks for the additional information
>in your followup.  I think I understand the point you were
>originally trying to make.
I reply to all of this:
If your 'Mr. Friesel' wasn't the opening to some high-horse snootiness 
then I apologize.  Master as a title is not used in this country, and 
in England where it is used is not related to education to my 
knowlege.  And I really don't care about your education or mine, 
appearances to the contrary.  It's simply not that relavent in the 
discussion of ideas.

In article <01bbc3be$3516a660$89d0d6cc@masher>, "Mike Asher" wrote:
I see what you're drive at for the most part but I note that you
argue around some things and miss others.
We are headed into a food crisis it seems, and that is
becasue of poor land use planning and poor water and soil 
management. And poor resource management period.
But we should not let desperation lead us to a blind faith in 
genetic tinkering and new biotechnologies as some kind of panacea.
There is no one panacea.  Would that the world and the problems 
we face were so simple!
If 1/2 of the research money that was being spent on sexy gene 
tech. were put into ecology and agro-ecology and proper resiource planning
I'd hazard a guess wcould have this probloem licked.
But no one will fund that research... 
if it doesn't have the word gene or DNA in it no corporate
funding body will touch it.   So biologists are seduced by money form
corporations - a well equipped lab - by the sheer sexiness 
of the work.  The cachet associated with it.
And the prestige that the money brings.
We don't need half the gentic researtch that is happening.
There are enough apologists in departments as it is.
We need the money spread out to other subdisciplines.
And the planet will be gon down in flames if we don't get the cash
soon to do the work.  Genetic research can and has helped 
but it ain't the great saviour.  
But besides that...
>even stranger.  Genetically improved foods have already reduced world
>hunger and our dependence on pesticides, and may well eliminate both in the
>foreseeable future.  Genetically-improved foods have been created that are
>safer (by containing fewer naturally-produced toxins or carcinogens), and
>foods that taste better and are less likely to mold or rot.   In the
There is a large differencve between genetic alteration craeted through
cross-breeding and transgenic techniques.
It is important not to conflate the political flakiness of the 
Natural law Party with theire stance on the issue of trasngenic
crops.  Leaving various politics out of it - where these groups
are getting theri information from is from *geneticists* such
as Joseph Cummins, David Suzuki and others who are justly concerned 
about the unknown and potentially disasterous effects of trasngenics
and bacterial transfer of some of these planted genes.  
>produce more smog in L.A. than automobiles; imagine a strain of lawn grass
>that never required cutting.
Imagine planting plants that could be grown in an area in which they 
did not waste water.  Most ground cover plants besides graminoids, 
do *not* require cutting. Why are we so stuck on lawns of graminoids?  
All of these things you mention can be achieved through breeding.  
Where do you thnk crop plants came from? Yeasr and years of 
farmers doing genetic experiments with enough lag tiime to see the results.
The 5 kingdoms do not naturally mix.  
We do not know the effect of wrecklessly placing, for example 
firefly genes into crop plants so they'll light up when
they are being attacked by predators.
That's transferring genetic material from Animalia 
into Plantae.  It's never been... done before.  
Conservative reasoning is that what we domn't know CAN hurt us.
If we are not sure we ought not to proceed.
there are other ways of increasing the food production.  And many of thebuses we list are not necessary.
>The anti-science crowd bases their arguments not on fact or study, but on
>fear-mongering.   They hold that 100% assurance of safety must be demanded,
You can never have 100%.  But it is crazy to shoot into the dark, too.
My background is in animal behaviour and in ecology.
real scimnetists are questioning the wisdom of
plowing ahead with tehse }"god-like" experiments so quickly.
Fools rush in, eh?
>a totally random selection of mutated genes ("natural" foods) are less safe
>and desirable than plants that have had certain genes chosen for selection
>Coffee:  In a 'natural' cup of coffee, there are over 1000 chemicals.  
Everything is made of chemicals.  What about it?
The selection for coffee and other farmed plants was 
done through selective breeding, not  a DNA snip 
and switch technique.  Traditional methods don't switch
between kingdoms.  i.e. transgenics. Transgenics are 
the real worry.  that and the ominous possibility that 
bacteria in the soil may transfer some worrisome genes 
into other kingdoms frokm the tinkered plants.
Your argument for the new genetic techniques is 
fallacious.  Transgenic techniqus are incommensurable with
traditional breeding and selection techniques in agriculture
and husbandry.
Most plants are poisonious anyways - but we have plenty of crops taht
could be grown if people were willing to try new foods.
Many foods of the past have been abandoned simply because they do
not transport well.  But they could be grown locally.  And are.
And this doesn't solve the very real problems of soil erosion and 
spoil mining and our diminishing water resources.
We need to expand the food and criop plants.  Not tinker with 
what already works.
We are losing thousands of proven breds.
Why keep tinkering the panst to fit the envirponment.
Why not maintain the envirionemnt for the proven crops?
It is wasteful and fooolish to plow recklessly ahead into 
unmapped biological territory.
Nature doesn't mix Animalia and Plantae - and it's had a lot
more practise then we have.  I'd wager ther's bound to be a good reason.
It's a hell of a gamble to be playing roulette with the mysteries 
of what separates the Kingdoms.
Why not follow a working example instead of mucking about 
like a bunch of children with a chemistry for kids set.
It's irresponsible.
I was unconcerned about this until I read some fo teh works of
geneticists who are concerned about the recklessness of 
others in their profession in proceeding so quickly with these 
experiments.  After all, naturally-occuring mutations are 
almost nearly always fatal.
Some are beneficaila but they are proven beneficial through 
the laboratory of many years of existance as useful crop plants.
Not by shooting into the dark.
Which is what much of this research amounts to.
>Only 22 of these have been tested for carcinogenic properties and, of
>those, 17 turned up positive.   For some reason, there seems to be little
>interest among the Greens in requiring a label on coffe products: "Warning:
>contains at least 17 known carcinogens".
This is irrelevant.  All botantsist and ecologists know that 
most plants in the world are toxic.  There are mnovements to label
a large numbr of botanical medicines as dangerous because of 
carcinogenicity.
I do agree with you that they tend to a simple outlook of Nature is Good
and overlook some of the universe's tricks and not very nice sides.
But any toxicologist worth their salt will tell you:
>>"Everything is toxic, it just depends on the dose."<<
The corrollary being "Almost anythng is edble if you 
just boil it long enough"...
That's why we have livers and immune systems.  Life would 
have died out long ago if plants were the real threat.
there is a window. like with almost all other
harmful/helpful thngs in creation.  like radiation [sunlight
for one].
>Celery.  Most plants don't want to be eaten-- by humans, insects, or
>anything else.  So they have evolved mechanisms to protect themselves, be
>it thorns, tough skin, or even pesticides.  Most plants naturally produce
>pesticides that in many cases are far more toxic than manmade ones. 
>Potatoes are an especially good example, as eating just a few ounces of
>potato-skins can be fatal.  In the case of celery,  the naturally produced
>pesticide (psoralens) is carcinogenic.  Only with the use of _manmade_
>pesticides, can celery be safely stored and shipped to market.   With
>genetic engineering, this dangerous behavior can be removed.
But many of the organochlorines and such are making ground water
suppkies for one toxic.  Maybe we don't NEED celery if it's that 
much bother.  Traditional methods of cross-breeding and selection
have yielded heritage breeds  we are losing to the new  hybrids.  
We shouldn't be losing *any* of our plant genetic reosurces to
the economies of scale of large seed compnies/pesticide manufacturers
which I notice you didn't mention are commonly owned by the same company.
Can you say vested interest?
We need every one of the breed we already have and to keep
the envirpnment in a state where it can continue to feed us.
You are talking green potatoes no doubt.  Sure - you slice those bits out 
just like you don't eat a cup full of apple pits - unless you don't
want to be around for long!
But I notice how you have left out the dose.  Many things in
one quantity are beneficial and in another harmful or fatal.
that's just the nature of our complex universe - windows of safety.
I'm not sure how relevant your point here is to
the case of trasngenic engineering.
No one is suggesting we eat rhubarb leaves.  Many plants load up
on toxins which in small amounts we humans consider tasty!  
Just look at the glycosides in the rose family!  you do like 
almonds now, don't you?
Look -> the real problem with genetic engineering at this point
that geneticists are concerned about is transgenics.  becasue of 
the behaviour of 
>selection and culling.   This is, a primitive and slow process, but is
>identical in technique to modern genetic engineering: add genes for desired
>characteristics, subtract genes for undesirable ones.
yes -= but the *speed* with which they progress is NOT the same.
And there in ,lies the probolem.
It's like mixing unknown chemicals.  Or eating mushrooms of unknown
species.  maybe it's edible... maybe not! ;)
"I wonder what will happen if I mix *this* and THIS?"
says the budding young chemist.  Usually nothing.
But it could get a  reaction you don't expect and can't control.
And in chemistry and other fields that could be fatal.  
We don't know how trasngenics will mix.  It's NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE.
Why assume... anything? Why not move slowly?
In the absence of information we should err on the
side of caution and move into this fascinating area *slowly*.
Not pell mell like a teenager with his father's car out fo his first spin.
[Besides, no one really needs the flav'r sav'r tomato.
>dangerous, it's too powerful, we don't know where it will lead. 
So caution is called for.  Why must it always be full
steam ahead, or full stop?  thats' a juvenil way of looking
at it, don't you think?  Do we humasn have to insist
ion seeing things in such a simplistic light?
Can we not pause and consider before acting and then
act slowly and sensibly and safely?
>Electricity, the automobile, the airplane, and even inventions as old as
>the printing press, all experienced the same fear and suspicion.    The NLP
And they have all caused problems,  some more some less.
>encephalopathy) on genetic engineering, when the actual cause is the use of
>infected sheep-meat in cattle feed.
No one would say these parties are composed of scientists. 
They are worried becasue of what they have heard some
scientists worrying about.
>I, for one, disagree.
Yes - you have fanatics in every area of life... I know who ypou mean.,
But why tar all those concerned with the safety of the environment 
and the food supply with the same broad brush?
You do a great disservice to many people by polarizing the issue this way.

In message <3274ca2a.74327657@news.icanect.net> - tc4968Mon, 28 Oct 1996
15:15:26 GMT writes:
:>atmosphere. Also isn't ozone produced by the photochemical reaction of
:>O2.
Yes that's TRUE...
:>If the above is true does this mean that reductions in the use of R-12
:>would increase the amont of ozone present in the lower atmosphere over
:>time. And secondly wouldn't it make sense that levels of ozone would
:>diminish when the amount of light is decreased, as in during the
:>winter over the polar regions.
No, OZONE in the lower atmoshpere won't increase much in the way, because you
*MUST* remember that the OZONE would take away MOST if not all of the UV-B and
UV-C , which is required to product OZONE... thus, reduced CFC-12 create a
healthier OZONE layer, and create a healthier lower atmoshpere... and you MUST
remember that CFC-12 is SO widely used is because that it does not break down
and harm people with Clorine and Florine, both of which are very reactive to
human flesh... thus however much CFC there are in the lower atmoshpere, it
won't help L.A. with its OZONE SMOG problem.
:>If these questions seem ignorant, I apologize as I have only a basic
:>understanding of chemistry.
Now you know...
===========================================================
David Wei              E-Mail Address: davidwei@uvic.ca
            NEW!!! WWW Page:  http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team  OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================

And I think that you have the right to be blown up in the Oklahoma City
bombing. That is MY legal right to state MY opinion.  And, YOU have NO 
RIGHT forcing YOUR moral opinions on me or anyone else.  The FBI and the 
Justice Departments should gun you down because you deserve it.
You have NO right to complain about that, because that is YOUR choice to 
eat meat, and hence YOU would be responsible for your own death.
Go to some other country, if you don't like it here.
And, just because you disagree with me, don't you tell me what I can or 
cannot say. You are NO better than Saddam Hussein. So, therefore, I have 
as much right to tell our President to give you the death penalty as he 
would to Saddam Hussein.
> Hey, fool!  For the last time, there is no torture going on! 
> These animals are humanely dispatched in a quick way to 
> prevent suffering as much as possible.  Of course, I realize 
> that you are probably an animal rights activist.
> 
> Just for fun, I'll add my own view of animal rights.  Animals 
> have the right to contribute a steak to my dinner plate.  The 
> last time I looked, they couldn't vote, they apparently 
> cannot think of concepts more complicated than how to eat 
> another animal (or plant), and they don't organize into 
> societies in the same sense as humans.  If animals think that 
> they are being mistreated or abused, let them organize and 
> overthrow us humans!
> 
> Have a nice day.
> For some *very* interesting alternate viewpoints, look at
> http://www.hamblin.com
Same old bullshit, I see.

> >How about YOU imposing YOUR moral views on animals by 
> torturing them and 
> >eating them?  
> 
> The only torture I would expose animals to would occur only 
> if I let them read your endless and mindless drivel before 
> killing them!
You had better not mess with anyone who tries to rape you. Because, that 
is YOUR own fault. YOU caused it. And, I encourage ANY jury never to 
convict ANYONE who rapes you, because you LOVE it.  If you didn't want 
it, then they would not DO it. 
You LOVE animal activists throwing your ass in jail.  Because, then you 
can get to hang out with guys who will rape you.

> For someone who is an animal lover, you don't seem to love 
> many of your fellow human beings, who are also classified as 
> being in the animal kingdom.  Gee, I guess you selectively 
> decide which animals you will love, and which ones you will 
> hate.  Preach on!
Then, you would NEVER send anyone to jail, for ANYthing.  So, you would 
NEVER do ANY harm, legal or otherwise, to an animal rights acitivst, 
since you are so PRO-human.
God, you are a worthless piece of trash.  
ANYone who thinks that we are suppose to love pieces of shit like that 
had BETTER love anyone who robs them or rapes them before they tell 
others to love.

In message <01bbc4e6$1e8d00a0$89d0d6cc@masher> - "Mike Asher"
28 Oct 1996 15:52:44 GMT writes:
:>> We have measured CFCs in the stratosphere.  Fact.
:>
:>CFC's do not destroy ozone.  The theory is that a CFC breakdown product--
:>specifically chlorine monoxide-- is responsible.  Typically it is chlorine
:>monoxide and other reactive forms for chlorine that are measured in the
:>stratosphere.
Sure, just ADD UV to CFC and you get those compounds.
:>I am not aware of any stratospheric measurements done for
:>CFCs; typically this is done at ground-based stations.  Perhaps you can
:>provide some information on this?
ever heard of those atmoshperic research planes? those high flying planes goes
into startosphere and SCOOP up the air at the nose of the plane, and then
analyze it in REAL TIME... there are also airliner with probes to help the
research.
:>It is interesting to note that, not only are CFCs naturally produced, but
:>that many other chemicals are highly effective at ozone destruction (HC1,
:>NO, NO2, CH4, and even water vapor).
None of them get to the starosphere as easily as CFC, water vapor often form
clouds, thus trapping NO, NO2 and wash them out of the sky, and CH4 is quite
reactive. CFC on the other hand is pretty much invincible to much of the lower
atmoshpereic conditions.
===========================================================
David Wei              E-Mail Address: davidwei@uvic.ca
            NEW!!! WWW Page:  http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
========================Team  OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================

Well, if you look on your plastic bag youll see it is a #2 or Polyethelene
resin that is similar to what milk jugs are made out of. I have no idea
where the heck you live but plastic bag recycling is becoming common
outside of most large corporate supermarkets these days. Products made
from plastic bags are obiously polyethelene in composition and I have
heard of the material being primarily used for making poly piping. Yes
plastic fence postss should be quite easy to make considering they have
been making plastic lumber for years now and is quite reliable. I would
investigate markets that are already established unless you want to open
your own business. Roofing tiles are rubber like tires and I have no idea
about laminates. good luck!
In article <846448098.2144@dejanews.com>, ldrock@sol.racsa.co.cr wrote:
> Are there any persons knowlegeable about plastics that can indicate
> what type of plastic is in plastic shopping bags, and ideas of
> possible products from straight remelt and remold? Would it be 
> appropriate for fence posts? Roofing tiles or laminates?
>  What treatment would yield it more usable?
> Larry Rock
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
> http://www.dejanews.com/          [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]

Hi
for further Information I recommend the "Ozone Depletion FAQ" to you. The 
following extraction describes how to get it.
In short: The ozone depletion at the poles is mainly due to the heterogeneous 
chemistry that take place on the surface of Polar Stratospheric Clouds. For 
this clouds you need very low stratospheric temperatures which occur in the 
polar vortex in winter.
Hope it helps!
Hermann
********************
Subject: How to get this FAQ
These files are (usually) posted monthly, towards the end of the month.
The current versions are stored on several archives:
A. World-Wide Web
(Limited) hypertext versions, with embedded links to some of the on-line
resources cited in the faqs, can be found at:
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/ozone-depletion/.html
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/ozone-depletion/top.html
http://www.lib.ox.ac.uk/internet/news/faq/sci.environment.html 
The ohio-state version has the nicest format, but it sometimes falls
behind. The Utrecht version has the best record for staying up to date.
Plaintext versions can be found at:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/
ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/
----
B. Anonymous ftp
To rtfm.mit.edu, in the directory  /pub/usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion
To ftp.uu.net, in the directory /usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion
Look for the four files named intro, stratcl, antarctic, and uv.
----
C. Regular email
   Send the following messages to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu:
   send usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/intro
   send usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/stratcl
   send usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/antarctic
   send usenet/news.answers/ozone-depletion/uv
 Leave the subject line blank.
 If you want to find out more about the mail server, send a
 message to it containing the word "help". 

Craig Mohn wrote:
> If all fishermen and recreators
> were allowed to assert property rights to the streams wrecked by
> logging, there would be two consequences - there would be much less
> logging, and about half of the people living west of the Mississippi
> would be lawyers (it only SEEMS like it's that way now).
If you are one of the 'fishermen and recreators' affected by logging then
might I suggest you consult with a lawyer and see if you can file a
Class Action Suit against specific logging firms.  Typically initial
discussions with lawyers are free.
IF it appears that you might have some grounds to sue, then might I suggest
you contact your nearest environmental groups and try to rally them around
the cause.
I tend to have libertarian tendencies.  Thus, if loggers are causing an
external harm, then sue them.  Make them pay the cost.  Who knows, you
might win.  :)
DISCLAIMER:  This is Eric Feltin using Chris Nelson's account
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eMail: c_nelson@bbcnc.org.uk or c_nelson@dial.pipex.com (preferred)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <32738C2C.1A5C@ism.net>, "Cold Mountain, Cold Rivers"
 writes:
>n
>From:	"Cold Mountain, Cold Rivers" 
>Date:	Sun, 27 Oct 1996 10:22:04 -0600
>
>in my readings, i occassionally run across items that bring reality to
the
>fore in an 
>immediate and extremely depressing way.  take the current issue of the
_land
>& 
>water_activist (pesticides, food supply) newsletter.  it has an uncited
(i
>think, don't have 
>with me) blurb article about a european study (regarding free trade)
>concluding that it takes 
>40,000 liters (~8,000 gallons u.s.) to get one truckload of strawberry
yogurt
>to its retai 
>destination(s?).  berries from eastern europe, plastic from germany,
cream
>from spain, etc. 
>etc.
>
>tho i take pessimistic views on many individual issues, i usually manage
to
>apply myself  
>to projects with energy.  stuff like this takes the wind right out of me
tho;
>it brings home 
>the to-the-bone inefficiency & misdirection of many of our economies. 
why
>can't our 
>gdp's derive from educating everyone to their full potential, teaching
health
>care/prevention, 
>caring for our environment, providing an environment that stimulates
>everyones 
>intellectual curiosity, etc.  my observation has been that it is as easy
to
>create income from 
>these activities as it is from more harmful ones.
>
>
I guess it's time to just end it all isn't it?

In article <3274178a.13679629@agate>, mohn@are._delete_this_.berkeley.edu
(Craig Mohn) writes:
>
>Asher also wrote that one study "found a correlation coefficient of
>less than 1.0, meaning that, as a group, the residents had a slightly
>smaller risk of cancer than the population at large."  He certainly is
>not referring to the usual correlation coefficient, which is bounded
>between -1 and 1, and if POSITIVE would suggest that the residents
>have a GREATER risk of cancer than the population at large.  And when
>you are talking about discrete and categorical variables such as
>cancer/no cancer  and  approximate dioxin exposure, there are many
>better measures than correlation anyway.  A simple crosstab would
>yield a chi-square statistic which might give more insight..... , but
>it's not my job to review scholarly work outside my field based on
>second-rate parroting on the newsgroups.
>
>I personally prefer to take the references I cite from people who at
>least give the appearance that they know what they are talking about.
>
>Craig
Perhaps Mike meant relative risk?

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TL ADAMS  wrote:
> 
> If nothing else, DDT taught us caution.  Dr. Racheal Carlson taught us
> wisdom.
Do you mean Rachel Carson, author of "Silent Spring"?   As far as I know,
Ms. Carson did not have a doctorate, her highest degree was a Masters.
--
Mike Asher
masher@tusc.net

We've published quite a lot on these topics in our magazine, Chemistry &
Industry - you should be able to find copies in your university library (or
in the chemistry department library). You'll find some information too at
our web site, either in the past articles (going back only a year or so) or
in the daily news database - both are searchable by keyword.
Regards,
Andrew Miller
Editor, Chemistry & Industry
http://ci.mond.org
In article <3274B95C.3648@shef.ac.uk>, M Ordidge  wrote:
> I am in my third year at university in Sheffield. I have been given a 
> project on the release of transgenic plants and am looking for 
> information on the regulations and impact of release of transgenic crops 
> and also the aspects of this technology in the food industry,wrt. food 
> safety and labelling.
> If you can help at all,
> Please e-mail me at:
> 
> M.Ordidge@Sheffield.ac.uk
> Thanks
> Matt Ordidge
> Dept. Molecular Biology and Biotechnology
> University of Sheffield
-- 
A Miller
editor@chemind.demon.co.uk

The half lives you indicated for BTEX coincide with ranges in the 
Handbook of Environmental Degradation Rates by Philip H. Howard et al., 
1991.  It is published by Lewis Publishers Inc.
The Howard et al. book suggests that the lowest values in the ranges are 
for aerobic biodegradation in water and the highest values in the ranges 
are for anaerobic degradation in water.  I used the latter in an 
environmental fate study for contaminated groundwater.
--Margaret in Calgary

                         EUREKA EUROENVIRON
               Environmental Monitoring Brokerage Event
                              E M B E
                         20-22 November 1996
                     University of Manchester, UK
The EUREKA Programme, launched in 1985, aims to facilitate collaborative 
R&D; projects between companies and research organisations accross Europe.
Within EUREKA the EUROENVIRON Programme focusess on envrionmental 
technology.
Whilst assuming Chairmanship of EUREKA, the UK is hosting a Brokerage 
Event which will involve all 25 members of the EUREKA network. This event
will take place at the University of Manchester on 22-22 November 1996.
Environmental Monitoring has been selected as the general subject for the
event because of the perceived trend in legislation within Europe which is
expected to create a growing demand for cost-effective and reliable monitoring
equipement. The opportunity for collaborative research provided by EUREKA 
EUROENVIRON has an important role to play in this process.
The purpose of EMBE is to generate collaborative research and development
pojects in innovative environmental technology between companies, research
organisations and higher educational institutions from at least two Members
countries.
The event, which seeks to attract 200 delegates, will comprise parallel 
workshops in specific technology areas, bilateral meetings arranged as a
result of advanced expressions of interest and poster sessions. The broad
technology areas for EMBE are:
        - AIR MONITORING                 - WATER MONITORING
        - SOLIDS MONITORING              - DATA MANAGEMENT
The event will provide a forum for companies and research organisations from
different European Countries to meet and talk about new technology and 
business opportunities. Forming partnerships with complimentary organisations
is an effective way for companies to expand their activities and make best
use of their own resources.
To find out more about how you organisation can get involved in EMBE
contact your local EUREKA (EUROENVIRON) Office, or contact the event
organiser, WRc, direct:
   Dr. Peter Newman or Pauline Juggins
   WRc plc, 
   Henley Road,
   Medmenham,
   Marlow, Bucks SL7 2HD, UK
   Tel: +44 1491 571531
   Fax: +44 1491 579094
   email: cet@wrcplc.co.uk
There are National EMBE Contacts in the follwing countries:
AUSTRIA, BELGIUM, CZECH Republic, DENMARK, EUROPEAN UNION, FINLAND
FRANCE, GERMANY, GREEZE, HUNGARY, ICELAND, IRELAND, ITALY, LUXEMBOURG,
NETHERLANDS, NORWAY, POLAND, PORTUGAL, RUSSIA, SLOVENIA, SPAIN, SWEDEN,
SWITZERLAND, TURKEY, UNITED KINGDOM
Please contact Dr. Peter Newman for the address list of all 
National EUREKA EUROENVIRON Contacts  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S: The National EMBE Contacts in 
     AUSTRIA are
   Dr. Ingrid Prohaska                      
   Bureau for International Research
   and Technology Cooperation
   Wiedner Hauptstr. 76
   1040 Wien
   Austria
   Tel. +43 1 581 16 16 117
   Fax. +43 1 581 16 16 16
   prohaska@bit.ac.at
   or 
   Dipl.-Ing. Gerald Schimak
   Dept. of Information Technology
   Austrian Research Centre Seibersdorf
   2444 Seibersdorf
   Austria
   Tel. +43 2254 780 3125
   Fax. +43 2254 72133
   email: schimak@zdfzs.arcs.ac.at
Thanks to all for your intrest !
Gerald Schimak
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          +-----------------------------+
                          !                             !
                          !   Tools for Environmental   !
                          !        Informatics          !
                          !                             !
                          !    April 26 - May 3 1997    !
                          !    Delta Whistler Resort    !
                          !                             !
                          !         Whistler            !
                          !     British Columbia        !
                          !                             !
                          !                             !
                          !          Canada             !
                          !                             !
                          +-----------------------------+
                                   In conjunction 
                                  with  ISESS 1997
The concept of environmental informatics has not yet satisfactorily penetrated North America.  
There is an assumption that environmental science is orchestrated by planners and conciliators
on one hand, and civil and environmental engineers/scientists on the other.  The experiences 
of several groups in Canada, the U.S., Australia and Europe (most notably Germany and Austria) 
would suggest otherwise.
Simultaneously the stakeholders in the academic structure and the existing environmental 
regulation and policy management structure are only recently wakening to the need for 
sophisticated information systems.  The data are incomplete, the concepts of data management 
are slow to adapt and the money at all levels (including education and training) is shrinking.
Our consortium, consisting of the University of Guelph, HTW Saarbruecken, and Austrian 
Research Center Seibersdorf, together with sponsoring bodies (International Federation for 
Information Processing and the German Computer Society), is organizing the 
            Second International Symposium on Environmental Software Systems 
                         at the Delta Whistler resort in 
                               Whistler, B.C., 
                      from April 28, 1997 until May 2, 1997.  
Before, during and after the conference, we propose to schedule sufficient time for students 
and faculty to attend sessions and to participate in course lectures.
Course
======
Selected, invited faculty will present 3-4 hour units of material for a course titled:
                          ====================================  
                          Tools for Environmental Informatics.  
                          ==================================== 
This course will provide advanced credit simultaneously at several institutions and 
departments.  We would encourage students to explore the possibility of obtaining credit 
for this at a home institution by attending the lectures and locating a faculty advisor 
willing to supervise a project for credit in the course. Non-students with the prerequisites 
will receive a letter/certificate of participation and assistance in converting the course 
to whatever they wished.
Theme
=====
The theme of the course is: Environmental data management and environmental information 
systems have to bridge gaps in time and space in data, information and knowledge.  
Elements of modelling, statistical computing, scientific database, visualization, 
environmental statistics (including risk assessment), uncertainty estimation and management, 
integration of heterogeneous and legacy systems and knowledge engineering all contribute to 
a better understanding of environmental problems.
Students will be encouraged to select one of Topic 17 or 18, but not both and a number from 
the remaining list.  Each individual’s topic list would have to be approved in advance.
Topics
======
The following form the basis for a set of topics:
1. Introduction and Overview of Course
2. Overview on Environmental Informatics
3. Environmental Monitoring
4. Issues in Modelling	
5. Data Visualization
6. Statistical Computing
7. Spatial Data Organization, GIS Applications
8. Expert Systems, Belief Networks
9. Artificial Neural Networks, Soft Computing
10. Metadata Management
11. Planning Aspects
12. Environmental Impact Assessment, Risk Assessment
13. Data  Integration Problems
14. Design of Environmental Networks
15. Life Cycle Assessment and Recycling
16. Environmental Software Engineering
17.  Biomonitoring
18. Case Studies for Integration	
19. Environmental Science for Computer Scientists, Planners
Note: undersubscribed course modules may be cancelled, or offered only as so-called 
reading course modules.
Prerequisites
=============
An advanced degree in progress in one of:  Systems Engineering, Computer Science, 
Computer Engineering, Civil Engineering.  A degree in progress in Environmental Science, 
Geology, Geography, Planning or Biology with a demonstrated undergraduate education in the 
computational sciences or equivaent industrial or governmental experience.
Cost of Course
==============
The cost of the course must be borne by the student or the student’s university.  It is 
expected the course fee will be $650.00(CDN) for the course only or $800.00(CDN) for the 
course and ISESS97 registration.  A 7% tax, refundable to visitors to Canada, will be added
to the fee. The second fee will apply only to certified graduate students in a degree 
program recognized by the ISESS organizing committee.
Participating Universities
==========================
University of Waterloo  (Biology), 
University of Guelph (Computing and Information Science, Environmental Science), 
Hochschule fuer Technik und Wirtschaft des Saarlandes (Computer Science), 
Fachhochschule Nuertingen (Planning)
Faculty (preliminary)
=====================
Don Cowan,           Professor, Department of Computer Science, University of Waterloo, Canada
Ralf Denzer,         Professor, Computer Science Department, 
                     Hochschule fuer Technik und Wirtschaft des Saarlandes, Germany
Peter Fischer,       Professor, Department of Geography, Saarland University
Reiner Guettler,     Professor, Computer Science Department, 
                     Hochschule fuer Technik und Wirtschaft des Saarlandes, Germany
Lorenz Hilty,        Professor, Computer Science Department, University of Hamburg, Germany
J.J. Hubert,         Professor, Department of Mathematics and Statistics, 
                     University of Guelph, Canada
D.C.L. Lam,          National Water Research Institute, Environment Canada 
Roman Lenz,          Professor, Fachhochschule Nuertingen, Germany
Colin Mayfield,      Professor, Department of Biology, University of Waterloo, Canada
Bernd Page,          Professor, Computer Science Department, University of Hamburg, Germany 
Claus Rautenstrauch, Professor,  University of Constance, Germany
Gerald Schimak,      Austrian Research Center Seibersdorf, Austria
Deborah Stacey,      Associate Professor, Department of Computing & Information Science, 
                     University of Guelph, Canada
David Swayne,        Professor, Department of Computing & Information Science, 
                     University of Guelph, Canada
--------------------------cut here--------------------cut here------------------------cut---
                     ======================
                     = REGISTRATION  FORM =
                     ======================
             TOOLS FOR ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATICS
             _
            !_!  I wish to register for the course
 Check one of the mandatory modules (8 hours):
      _                     _
  18 !_!		19 !_!
 Indicate which modules you wish to take (4 hours each):
      _      _      _      _      _      _      _      _
   2 !_!  3 !_!  4 !_!  5 !_!  6 !_!  7 !_!  8 !_!  9 !_!
      _      _      _      _      _      _      _      _
  10 !_! 11 !_! 12 !_! 13 !_! 14 !_! 15 !_! 16 !_! 17 !_!
 Total number of hours: ________ 	
Title 	___________________________________________________
First name	___________________________________________
Last name 	___________________________________________
Organization 	___________________________________________
Address 	___________________________________________
FON 	___________________________________________________
FAX 	___________________________________________________
Email 	___________________________________________________
Institution from which credit is sought 	
	___________________________________________________	
Signature 	
	___________________________________________________
We encourage registering by emailing this information to: 
Dr. Swayne, dswayne@uoguelph.ca
================================
For More Information Contact:
Dr. David Swayne, 
Department of Computing & Information Science, 
University of Guelph, 
Guelph, Ontario, Canada     N1G 2W1
Email:  dswayne@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
Fax:  +1-519-837-0323

charliew (charliew@hal-pc.org) wrote:
: Mike,
: You're wasting your time on this guy.  He'll soon have you 
: seriously devoted to justifying every statement you make, if 
: you let him.  I have already found out by experience that he 
: hates being ignored.  Try placing his address in your kill 
: file.  No thanks necessary.
Charlie, this is exactly what Asher (and, in another thread, Wayne
McGuire) demands of the "liberals".
As far as I'm concerned, he has sufficiently self-destructed before
people who knew their way around the issues in the DDT thread that I can
safely leave his broadsides to others.
--
Mach's gut!
Bruce Scott, Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik, bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de
Remember John Hron:       http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

Andrew Taylor (andrewt@cs.su.oz.au) wrote:
: In article <01bbc466$ef72b140$89d0d6cc@masher>,
: Mike Asher  wrote:
: >"I would wish...to return as a killer virus to lower human population
: >levels"
: >     - Prince Phillip, while leader of the World Wildlife Fund
: >(1989, Special Report, "Executive Intelligence Review", 1989, pg. 28-29)
: Prince Philip was never "leader" of WWF.  I believe he was and maybe
: even still is it patron.  EIR is a LaRouchite publication.  It also no
: doubt pushes the LaRouchite claim that the British Royal family are
: drug smugglers.
As well as pseudo-scientific babble like "negentropy".
Allowing oneself to be put on the spot of having to respond to the
statements of such groups is like allowing Scientology to demand that
medical critics address the nonsense of the "reactive mind" in terms of
the definitions in _Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health_.
You are subtly being demanded to accept the terms of a debate by the
instigator, thereby also accepting his or her values.  I'll not do that,
thank you very much.
--
Mach's gut!
Bruce Scott, Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik, bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de
Remember John Hron:       http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/

snark@swcp.com wrote:
> 
> Mark writes, in part:
> 
> >Frankly I think that the Republicans are an excellent example for our
> >children of how money and power make people disgusting.  I've been
> >using Republican statements for some time now to illustrate to my
> >daughter how propaganda is used to manipulate people into acting
> >against their own best interests, and how directed, concentrated
> >wealth can control whole governments, even in a, er, Democracy
> >(thinking of Chicago in particular).
> 
> Ah, yes--Cook county, bastion of the Republicans! :-)
> 
> snark
You should distinguish Cook County from Chicago.   Cook County is
currently neither Republican nor Democratic.   Populations shifts from
the city to the suburbs, many outside the county, and changes in voting
patterns within parts of the city have changed the politics
considerably.   Also, some of the older near in suburbs which have
traditionally been heavily Republican find they sometimes have more in
common with the city than with the outer suburbs.
By the way, according to the Chicago Tribune, Richard Daley, Jr. is now
a more popular figure in staunchly Republican Winnetka than our
Republican Governor Edgar.   I don't know how true that is myself.
 -- 
Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
Evanston Illinois

Michael Tobis wrote:
> 
> John McCarthy (jmc@Steam.stanford.edu) wrote:
> 
> : I am aware that many people who consider themselves environmentalists,
> : e.g. Len Evens and Michael Tobis in this newsgroup, agree that nuclear
> : energy is at least part of the solution.
> 
> I'm sorry. I do not consider myself an "environmentalist". I find the
> terminology useful in referring to a group of people who start with
> conclusions and select evidence accordingly. They are opposed by another
> group, which may be called "anti-environmentalists", because they oppose
> environmentalists, not because they consciously oppose a sound envrionment.
> These people also start with conclusions and select evidence. I consider
> both groups quite dangerous.
> 
> I prefer to start with evidence and reach conclusions. I believe the
> same is true of McCarthy. We tend to align with opposite sides on many
> issues because we do not share priorities, default assumptions or ideas
> about the burden of proof. However, despite the fact that he may perceive
> me as agreeing with "environmentalists" more than disagreeing with them,
> my intentions and ideas are not theirs.
> 
> Others, I understand, may define the terms differently, and may be
> comfortable with one of the labels. I am not.
> 
> mt
I, on the other hand, am comfortable with the label.   The premises that
I start with are that our species has had and will probably coninue to
have major impacts on the biosphere, both locally and globally and that
not all these impacts are likely to be benign in the long run for our
species.
Having said that, I try to judge each issue on its merits.  For example,
I don't believe, on the basis of the evidence as I understand it, that
it is very likely that low frequency magnetic fields are likely to have
any significant effect on our species either directly or indirectly.
As another example, I believe in the controlled use of antibiotics to
cure disease although this will definitely in the long run affect the
evolution of some bacteria which interact with humans.   However, I
think it is important to exercise some restraint in such matters.
On the other hand, like Michael Tobis, I believe from what I have been
able to learn that the probability of adverse consequences from enhanced
greenhouse induced climate change is high enough to merit some action to
limit the growth of concentrations of greenhouse gases in our
atmosphere.   I believe such actions must be brought about
democratically, and the only method I know that will work is education.
I don't believe radical changes in our economy will be necessary at this
point to achieve these ends, but I fear that, if climate change is
extreme because of delay, radical changes in our society will be forced
on us by external events.
Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
Evanston Illinois

jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw) wrote:
Better gets those rockets going-- 25,000 more people were added
yesterday, and today, ...
Dell
snsip..
>>"A British physicist, J.  H.  Fremlin...has made some interesting
>>calculations on how much time we could buy by occupying the [other]
>>planets of the solar system.  For instance, [at the current rate] it
>>would take only about 50 years to populate Venus, Mercury, Mars, the
>>moon, and the moons of Jupiter and Saturn to same population density
>as Earth...

josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>In <54dqe8$l9s@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> mfaul@chat.carleton.ca (Mark Faul) writes:
>
>>Not owning a car can provide some definite advantages.  Financially, you
>>save on the original cost of the car (~ $15000 - lasts you about 5-8 years),
>>insurance per year (average $1000/year), maintenance (about $500/year),
>>gasoline ($2000/year +).  If your car lasts 8 years, it costs you about
>>$43,000 or $5375/year.  The bus is a hell of a lot cheaper, and you could
>>also afford a VERY NICE bike!
>
>This is a common argument, but it relies on seriously flawed
>assumptions.
>
>Of the fixed costs included in the MVMA cost per mile, depreciation 
>is by far the largest
>In applying these costs to the real world, it's important to 
>remember that they are costs *for new vehicles.* 
>Older cars do have a disadvantage in fuel economy, as shown by the 
>lower fuel economy of vehicles driven by poor families. 
There are other disadvantages as well: they need more maintainance and 
they are less safe, especially if people cut down on the maintainance. 
And of course: They are very bad for the environment.

josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>In <54dqe8$l9s@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> mfaul@chat.carleton.ca (Mark Faul) writes:
>
>>Not owning a car can provide some definite advantages.  Financially, you
>>save on the original cost of the car (~ $15000 - lasts you about 5-8 years),
>>insurance per year (average $1000/year), maintenance (about $500/year),
>>gasoline ($2000/year +).  If your car lasts 8 years, it costs you about
>>$43,000 or $5375/year.  The bus is a hell of a lot cheaper, and you could
>>also afford a VERY NICE bike!
>
>This is a common argument, but it relies on seriously flawed
>assumptions.
>
>Of the fixed costs included in the MVMA cost per mile, depreciation 
>is by far the largest
>In applying these costs to the real world, it's important to 
>remember that they are costs *for new vehicles.* 
>Older cars do have a disadvantage in fuel economy, as shown by the 
>lower fuel economy of vehicles driven by poor families. 
There are other disadvantages as well: they need more maintainance and 
they are less safe, especially if people cut down on the maintainance. 
And of course: They are very bad for the environment.

In article <846448098.2144@dejanews.com>, ldrock@sol.racsa.co.cr wrote:
> Are there any persons knowlegeable about plastics that can indicate
> what type of plastic is in plastic shopping bags, and ideas of
> possible products from straight remelt and remold? Would it be 
> appropriate for fence posts? Roofing tiles or laminates?
>  What treatment would yield it more usable?
> Larry Rock
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
> http://www.dejanews.com/          [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
Well, if you look on your plastic bags you will see that they are #2
polyethelene resin, the same as milk jugs. This is a thermoplastic that
can be melted down and reextruded. Most towns have collection bins for
plastic recyclng in front of the local corporate supermarket. Making fence
posts should not be a problem as they have been making plastic lumber for
years and at qualities that surpass natural wood. Roofing tiles are made
of rubber and could be but I am pretty sure are not being made from old
tire. A clean waste stream of plastic bags would make it the most usable
and I believe most bags collected now are going to make poly pipe. I would
research exsisting markets that incorporate recycled plastic in their
final product and see if they cant make you want you want. Good Luck.

In article <846448098.2144@dejanews.com>, ldrock@sol.racsa.co.cr wrote:
> Are there any persons knowlegeable about plastics that can indicate
> what type of plastic is in plastic shopping bags, and ideas of
> possible products from straight remelt and remold? Would it be 
> appropriate for fence posts? Roofing tiles or laminates?
>  What treatment would yield it more usable?
> Larry Rock
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
> http://www.dejanews.com/          [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]
Well, if you look on your plastic bags you will see that they are #2
polyethelene resin, the same as milk jugs. This is a thermoplastic that
can be melted down and reextruded. Most towns have collection bins for
plastic recyclng in front of the local corporate supermarket. Making fence
posts should not be a problem as they have been making plastic lumber for
years and at qualities that surpass natural wood. Roofing tiles are made
of rubber and could be but I am pretty sure are not being made from old
tire. A clean waste stream of plastic bags would make it the most usable
and I believe most bags collected now are going to make poly pipe. I would
research exsisting markets that incorporate recycled plastic in their
final product and see if they cant make you want you want. Good Luck.

Mike Asher (masher@tusc.net) wrote:
: 
: CFC's do not destroy ozone.  
That's like saying a gun doesn't kill, but the bullets that come from it 
do.  Without CFCs in the stratosphere, there wouldn't be the Cl radicals 
that destroy ozone.
: The theory is that a CFC breakdown product--
: specifically chlorine monoxide-- is responsible.  
Sorry, that's a fact.  We've measured CFCs, the Cl radicals from them, 
and the ClO byproduct there.  The ClO, BTW, is not a CFC breakdown 
product -- it's the result of the Cl radical attacking an O3 molecule and 
pulling an O atom off it.
: Typically it is chlorine
: monoxide and other reactive forms for chlorine that are measured in the
: stratosphere.  
The only way ClO is formed there is from Cl reacting with O3.
:I am not aware of any stratospheric measurements done for
: CFCs; typically this is done at ground-based stations.  Perhaps you can
: provide some information on this?
We most certainly have measured CFCs in the stratosphere.
: 
: It is interesting to note that, not only are CFCs naturally produced, 
Absolutely false.  There are NO natural sources of CFC.
: but
: that many other chemicals are highly effective at ozone destruction (HC1,
: NO, NO2, CH4, and even water vapor).
Also totally false.   Only substances that produce Cl radicals can attack 
CFCs, so your NO, NO2, CH4, and H2O can NOT do this.  HCl is water 
soluble and does not make it to the stratosphere or stay there long 
enough to form significant numbers of Cl radicals.
You might learn some chemistry and some science before posting such 
erroneous statements.

TL ADAMS  writes:
>Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>> Most of the evils of life arise from man's being
>> unable to sit still in a room    ||    B. Pascal
>Yuri, enjoyed your tag line so much that I thought I would 
>quote one of my favorites:
>  How can we contemplate eternity, when we don't know what to do
>  with ourselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.
>    --I. Asimov.  (Or maybe he stole it from someone else)
"Teach us to sit still."
      --T.S. Eliot in /Ash Wednesday/
                   Will Mengarini  
"A movement which is confined to philosophers & honest men can never
 exercise any real political influence; there are too few of them.
 Until a movement shows itself capable of spreading among brigands,
 it can never hope for a political majority."
      --George Bernard Shaw, /Man & Superman/, p81

The Most informed person I know, regarding ISO 14000 (14001) is 
Lee Hairr of EEA, Inc.  I don't know his email address, but you 
could give him a call @ 516-746-4400.  Tell him Frank reilly said 
to say hello.
In article <553ncu$mjf@newsbf02.news.aol.com> LawrenceT5 wrote:
>Date:	28 Oct 1996 20:41:50 -0500
>From:	lawrencet5@aol.com (LawrenceT5)
>Sender:	root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>Newsgroups:	sci.environment
>Subject:	ISO 14000
>
>Does anyone know the current status of ISO 14000?  
>
>
>Larry Tagrin
>Freelance Writer &
>Training & Development Specialist
>
>
>

Mole crabs generally refer to _Emerita talpoida_ while beach or 
sand fleas generally refer to amphipods (like _Talorchestia sp._). 
I (in a previous post) also asked about how widespread this 
phenomanon is, as I have done a lot of work with high-energy sandy 
beach ecology.  I have noticed that when a beach profile changes 
(slope and wave energy) the organisms mentioned diminish.  Too 
steep, and they wash away - too shallow and they get stranded or 
maybe they don't get enough food.  Any other folks interested in 
sandy beache ecology?
In article <553hdo$f0u@hplms2.hpl.hp.com> Bo Curry wrote:
>Date:	28 Oct 1996 23:59:52 GMT
>From:	curry@hpl.hp.com (Bo Curry )
>Newsgroups:	sci.environment
>Subject:	Re: Disappearnce of Beach Life
>
>Robert Haviland (bobh@enterprise.america.com) wrote:
>: Observation of the Atlantic Coastal Beaches of Volusia County, 
Florida
>: shows a marked change in beach life forms over the past two 
years or so.
>: Now, and all summer, there are no mature coquina clams or mole 
crabs
>: present. On one occasion during the summer a few small (1/4 
inch) coquina
>: and a single mole crab about the same size. Until about two 
years ago
>: these forms were plentiful. Then dead coquina were observed, 
with the
>: feeding "antennae" cologged with green algae. Populations 
decreased
>: rapidly after this was first observed. Mole crabs "just 
dissappeared",
>: nothing appearing as to reason.
>
>: Query- Has these phenomena been observed elsewhere? Is the 
cause known?
>
>There were lots of coquina on the beach in Gulf County this
>summer (1996). They were said to be having a "red tide", which
>was claimed to affect oysters, though I saw no evidence of it.
>Are the "mole crabs" those little tide-line burrowers we call
>"sand fleas"? There were plenty of them, too. So whatever's
>happening on the Atlantic, it isn't affecting the Gulf.
>
>Bo

Tim Shoppa wrote:
> 
>, a
> >few trucks do much more damage to a road than hundreds of cars. This
> >implies that while cars should pay more using the roads, trucks should
> >pay MUCH more.--jeb
> 
> On the other hand, it's the trucks that bring people who live
> in the cities their food.  (I'm going to completely ignore the
> rail vs. truck issue here.)  If you made trucks pay substantially
> more for using the roads, the cost would come out of the pockets
> of everyone (rich and poor alike, they all eat about as much food).
> 
> Many countries, as a matter of fact, realize the necessity of
> trucks and as a result have substantially lower
> taxes on diesel fuel than on gasoline.  You obviously feel
> differently and, I presume, boycott all food items transported
> by truck?
> 
> Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca).
But you can't avoid the "Train vs Truck" conflict here, since they are the choices. Below is a recent letter on 
this.
tctvoice@captimes.madison.com
Re: Big Trucks.
A recent letter described a "near death" experience of a car driver in
their encounter with big fast trucks at I90 and I94 near Madison. A recent
truck car collision killed 5 people, and the I think ANYONE who drives on
the highway much knows that large trucks are a hazard to cars.
A recent Sound Off caller expressed a common misconception: that we "need
big trucks on our highways, or else transporting goods would be more
expensive". This is not only not true, it turns the economics of
transportation on its head: rail transport in inherently much cheaper than
truck.  That is why trucks add additional trailers. They got double
trucks, and now want 3. When three are accepted, they will push for 4. A
truck is more efficient, the more it is like a train.  
Then why did trucks replace trains for long distance transport of goods?
That was a POLITICAL and not an ECONOMIC decision. The government 
decided to penalize trains and subsidize trucks.  Starting early in this century, 
and lead by people who called themselves "Progressive" there was a policy
decision to undermine the railroads  and build highways that could be used
by both cars and trucks for "free". That is, the full cost of construction
and repair would not be charged to the users. There was a gas tax of a few
cents, but cars and especially trucks were not taxed nearly enough to cover
the costs.  It was "Rich Rail Barons" vs "the little guys". 
(See my web page files on "the Gas Tax" and "Tradegy of the Commons")
Well the Rich Barons "lost". But clearly if the trucking industry had to
build their own highways, they would discover that laying rails was much
cheaper. Then they could link dozens of bottoms together to be hauled by
one cab, and they would become--TRAINS!
Damage to roads by vehicles is related to the weight of the vehicle. If trucks
were charged (relative to cars) in proportion to relative weight, could they 
compete with trains for long distance hauling? And there is some claim that
the damage factor should be (weight) to the forth power.
In any rational transport system, goods would be loaded into truck sized
containers at seaport docks or points of origin and transported by rail for
the long distances to rail heads near the final destination, then removed
to be pulled by tractors over city streets for the final few miles to the
final distribution point.  This would be both cheaper and safer than the
current politically (not economically) directed system.     
-- 
                     ,,,,,,,
_______________ooo___( O O )___ooo_______________
                       (_)
         jim blair        (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu)
for a good time, call http://www.execpc.com/~jeblair/

Daniel Clements wrote:
> Buy local, when ever possible. You will be extracting less from the
> environment!
> 
> For example, after a nice long mountain bike ride through the woods, I
> like to enjoy an all natural micro- or cottage-brewed beer that has
> been brewed within a 150 kilometre radius of where I live. 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DANIEL CLEMENTS (Barrie, Ontario CANADA)
Hi,
Nice idea. But I can top that! After biking home from work, I enjoy a 
GREAT beer that I brewed in my basement. And bottled in the same bottles 
that I have used for decades. 
Look at "shorter work week?" on my web page.
-- 
                     ,,,,,,,
_______________ooo___( O O )___ooo_______________
                       (_)
         jim blair        (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu)
for a good time, call http://www.execpc.com/~jeblair/

I have done extensive research on sandy beach fauna.  The two 
species you mention typically dominate the swash zone and beyond 
in both directions during the mid to late summer on high 
wave-energy beaches.  It is not unusual for them to disappear from 
the beach during the winter, and during (and after) heavy surf 
action or storms.  I did a lot of work on the effect of 
disturbances on the populations of _Emerita_ and _Donax_.  They 
are usually re-recruited to the beach from somewhere else 
(planktonic larvae or lonshore transport)  following a disturbance 
such as beach replenishment.  I know that some beaches with less 
wave action (eg. Sapelo Island, GA) are NOT dominated by these 
organisms, and do have a great deal of euglena (a green algae-like 
organism).  
Has the profile (slope and wave energy) of your beach changed?  
Has your beach been replenished?  Is there any change to the 
sewage loading of the local waters?  I'd like to know a little 
more about this phenomenon, since it doesn't seem to go along with 
my understanding.
In article <5536fu$aeh@enterprise.america.com> Robert Haviland 
wrote:
>Date:	28 Oct 1996 15:53:18 -0500
>From:	bobh@enterprise.america.com (Robert Haviland)
>Newsgroups:	sci.environment
>Subject:	Disappearnce of Beach Life
>
>Observation of the Atlantic Coastal Beaches of Volusia County, 
Florida
>shows a marked change in beach life forms over the past two years 
or so.
>Now, and all summer, there are no mature coquina clams or mole 
crabs
>present. On one occasion during the summer a few small (1/4 inch) 
coquina
>and a single mole crab about the same size. Until about two years 
ago
>these forms were plentiful. Then dead coquina were observed, with 
the
>feeding "antennae" cologged with green algae. Populations 
decreased
>rapidly after this was first observed. Mole crabs "just 
dissappeared",
>nothing appearing as to reason.
>
>Query- Has these phenomena been observed elsewhere? Is the cause 
known?
>
>R.P.Haviland, corresponding secretary, Volusia-Flagler Environmental
>Council
>

Society of Risk Analysis - Philadelphia Chapter
Dec. 3, 1996
Linda S. Erdreich
Bailey Research Associates, New York
"New EPA Carcinogen Risk Assessment Guidelines:
How Much of a Difference Will They Make?"
Faculty Club, University of Pennsylvania
Social time: 6-6:30 PM
Dinner* 6:30 PM
Speaker: 7:15 PM
Costs  (Dinner and Bar Per Person):
PSRA Member: $20
Non-Member $25
Speaker Session Only $5
(*Prepayment is required for dinner)
Please Remit by November 29 to:
Laura H. Giese
Environmental Resources Management, Inc.
855 Springdale Drive
Exton PA 19341
(laura_giese@erm.com)
--
Kenneth R. Foster
Department of Bioengineering
University of Pennsylvania
220 S. 33rd. St.
Philadelphia PA 19104-6392
215-898-8534
fax 215-573-2071