Subject: Socialism and Environmentalism
From: redflag@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (Christian Camacho)
Date: 28 Nov 1996 12:46:40 GMT
The People
May 27, 1995
Vol. 105 No. 4
SOCIALISM: TRUE EMBODIMENT
OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT
By B.B.
It may not be the first thing on its agenda, but
somewhere high at the top of the list of the first congress of
the socialist industrial union government of North America will
be placed sweeping measures to reverse centuries of plunder
and destruction of the earth's resources and the attendant
environmental degradation. Millions of workers who remained
unemployed, underemployed or engaged in totally useless
nonproductive occupations will suddenly find themselves
absorbed in the tasks of rebuilding their world, one shattered by the
abuses of class rule and open-ended profiteering. Their ardent
efforts, freed from any restrictions imposed by private-ownership
interests and operating only for the good of humankind
and the world, will be in sharp contrast to the feeble and timid actions
of the "environmentalists" of the capitalist system who
are perennially preoccupied with garnering political influence
among politicians and trying to raise the monetary funds to carry
on their work.
Current environmentalists, limited in their world
view and understanding of the capitalist system, imbued
with notions of the "evil men" theory of history, are prone to
divorce their specific environmental cause from the whole
socio-economic fabric. These environmental warriors of
capitalist society endlessly flounder, winning, at best, only a
delaying action against the disintegrating effects of capitalism
on the natural world.
However, there is one important legacy they are
leaving behind for the future. It is data, mountains and
mountains of exposes, reports and documentation, that amount to
indictments of capitalism as the culprit for the destruction of
the environment. University libraries are bulging, research
establishments are filled, publishers are glutted and periodicals
are saturated with data: data about endangered creatures large and
small, from sea lions to snail darters, wolves and coyotes to
Bengal tigers, pandas, eagles, condors, spotted owls, whooping
cranes, salmon and sea horses, along with all the vegetation of
their native habitats. Hardly anything seems to have escaped
the scrutiny of those scientists and researchers who weigh in
with pounds, kilos and tons of reports and findings that Mother
Nature is in deep trouble.
The capitalist system finds all of this tolerable
as long as no explicit condemnations of its operations are
forthcoming. Indeed, reports and data accumulation are welcome and
even encouraged by various foundations, and one can make a
comfortable living because of the earth's dying. It's as though
uncovering an environmental problem is equal to doing something
about it; a lot cheaper, too!
Two recent examples of such documentation, blaming individuals
without indicting the system, appeared recently. One, an article
in The New York Times of April 7, entitled "El Dorado, Lost
Again?" by Leah Martins and Patrick Tierney; the other, "The
Puzzle of Declining Amphibian Populations," by Andrew R. Blaustein and
David B. Wake, in the April edition of Scientific American.
The former informs us that Venezuela and Brazil are selling off
vast areas of rain forest to gold-prospecting companies in the
Guiana Highlands separating the Amazon and Orinoco watersheds.
Gold deposits estimated at $90 billion, "perhaps 10 percent of
the planet's resources," are there. European, Japanese and South
African gold capitalists are destroying "one of the planet's
richest rain forests" and the habitat of the last unassimilated
tribal peoples, the Pemon Indians.
Yellow-Jack Resources, a Canadian outfit, has evicted native
peoples from their hunting and fishing domains while the
lecherous Robert Friedland, owner of the notorious Summitville
gold mine in Colorado, has descended upon the Guiana Highlands
(with $50 million he obtained from the Vancouver Stock Exchange)
for a repeat performance of the polluted mess he left behind in
Colorado, where the clean-up costs were estimated by the EPA at
$100 million. Incredibly, this villain acquired a vice presidency
in the Minas Guarich strip-mining company partially owned by, of
all people, explorer-naturalist Charles Brewer-Carias, a renowned
research associate of the University of California and the New
York Botanical Gardens!
Brewer-Carias, while posturing as an environmentalist and savior
of the Nanomami Indians, saw nothing contradictory in operating
open-pit mines on over 12,000 acres in the environmentally
protected headwaters of the Cuyumi River! Not to be outdone by
Friedland, he employed unsalaried Maguiritare Indians for mining
while "he destroys not only nature but also the men who work for
him," according to Gergio Milano, an anthropologist and retired
police official. The "innovative" Mr. Brewer also ferried
University of California anthropologists to the last uncontacted
cluster of aboriginal villages in the Amazon without quarantine
precautions on a gold-extracting junket, according to three
Venezuelan Air Force colonels.
The report goes on to urge the Brazilian and Venezuelan
governments to prevent strip-mining and encourage environmentally
safer measures. Fat chance! Capitalists always take the most
"cost-effective" route to extract minerals and wealth from the
earth. The conditions of capitalist competition force them to do
so--a realization too distant for the authors of the Times report
to grasp.
In the other article, from Scientific American, the authors
report that the declining populations of frogs, toads and
salamanders worldwide to be partially due to their high exposures
to ultraviolet radiation as a result of ozone depletion in the
atmosphere. These research scientists documented "massive die-off
of fertilized eggs" in Cascade Mountain frogs in Oregon, and in
the western toads. Their experiments on fertilized eggs hatched
in controlled laboratory conditions using the same lake water
that they breed in produced healthy specimens. They proved that
extensive environmental destruction, acid rain and snow,
fungicides, herbicides, insecticides and industrial chemicals--in
other words, capitalism's infernal brew--were all contributing to
dramatic declines in amphibian populations. None, they
emphasized, have been more damaging than "habitat degradation and
destruction [which] clearly remain the most powerful causes of
amphibian disappearance around the world."
These scientists have drawn innocuous conclusions, without the
essential inference that environmental degradation is inherent in
capitalist development. Such an inference would, of course, have
led to only one conclusion: that meaningful action to repair our
world can only be taken when the competitive pressures of
capitalism, indeed the capitalist system itself, is abolished and
socialism established.
Upon the basis of the evidence accumulated by today's
environmentalists, a socialist industrial union government will
take swift, positive and massive efforts to restore the
environment. The first step toward doing so, of course, will be
to change the basic purpose of social production, from production
for profit to production for use--inherently conservationist in
its orientation.
We can expect the workers of every industry to evaluate the
repercussions of the productive processes they are engaged in.
Biologists, botanists and scientists throughout society will be
part of this reassessment, in which the measure of production
will be humanity and all living things, and the future
generations of all living things.
In this sense, the possibility for a true environmental movement
lies within the program of the Socialist Labor Party, for only
that program can turn the accumulated mass of environmental
documentation into effective action to restore the world.
--
"Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much; wisdom is humble that
he knows no more."
redflag@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Subject: Re: Ozone hole=storm in a teacup
From: eggsoft@sydney.DIALix.oz.au (Greig Ebeling)
Date: 28 Nov 1996 19:42:15 +1100
Sam McClintock (scmcclintock@ipass.net) wrote:
>Greig Ebeling wrote:
>> I happen to think Ralph Cicerone and Sherwood Rowlands are good
>> referees. But if you insist, I have references to back up
>> everything I claim, which I excluded for brevity.
>>
>> Which part of my post do you think requires clarification?
>
>Nothing you posting needs clarification because there was
>nothing of substance.
A matter of opinion (and a comment lacking substance).
>If you wish to post something of
>substance, again please let us know. All you have to do
>is post one reference of actual research (within the last
>decade to keep it simple), and we can discuss/debate
>all you want.
I had thought that my original post was quite logical and that a
discussion could proceed without it becoming convoluted, but since
you throw down the gauntlet, here is my response. I look forward
to your (adequately referenced) response.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Ozone depletion is a natural phenomenon.
The chemistry involved in polar stratospheric ozone depletion has been
well researched and is described in a number of excellent publications.
The following description of the ozone depletion chemistry is derived
from Parson's Ozone FAQ at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu
/hypertext/faq/usenet/ozone-depletion/antarctic/faq-doc-12.html.
Briefly, ozone depletion results from the reaction of inorganic chlorine
compounds (HCl, ClONO2) on the surface of polar stratospheric clouds PSCs.
The inorganic Cl compounds arise from the photolysis of organic compounds
which rise to the stratosphere by eddy diffusion. These organochlorides
include methyl chloride (natural) and CFCs.
PSCs are crystals of nitrogen compounds (eg nitric acid) and water. They
occur at -80 deg C. PSCs do not occur at greater than this temperature.
During winter, inorganic Cl compounds HCl and ClONO2 react with the PSCs to
form large amounts of ClO. When the sun returns in spring, the ClO reacts
rapidly as follows:
ClO + ClO -> ClOOCl
ClOOCl + hv -> Cl + ClOO
ClOO -> Cl + O2
2 Cl + 2 O3 -> 2 ClO + 2 O2
^^^^
In recent times ozone Antarctic ozone depletion has been measured to
increase each year. This correlates with the increased abundance of
inorganic Cl due to the increase of man-made CFCs. However there are
a number of anomalies which cast doubt on the idea that this is the
sole cause of the so-callesd ozone hole.
(1) Ozone depletion also correlates very strongly with PSC concentration.
For example consider the correlation between observed temperature rise, and
decrease in observed ozone depletion in 1988. [Shanklin]. In that case,
reduced PSCs due to relatively high temperatures resulted in a dramatic
decline in ozone depletion rates.
Since inorganic Cl compounds and PSCs occur naturally, and 1993 UARS
measurements and studies of Arctic ozone depletion [Waters et al]
[Gleason et al] show that PSCs are critical in the reaction, the
entire observation of Antarctic ozone depletion can be logically
expained by natural mechanisms involving cyclical stratospheric
temperature variations.
(2) There has always been a relatively large burden of inorganic Cl
present.
Since direct measurement of the gaseous composition of the stratosphere
has been occurring only for the last 20 or so years, proof by direct
measurement of the natural state is not possible, and all discussion on
this subject is of course speculative.
However HCl was first measured in 1976 [Farmer et al.] [Eyre and Roscoe].
It is now well known that in the stratosphere the HCl mixing ratio
increases with altitude, rapidly up to about 35 km, and then more slowly
up to 55km and beyond.
Also it is known that the mixing ratios of naturally occurring CH3Cl shows
a rapid decrease with altitude in the stratosphere. The turnover in organic
chlorine correlates nicely with the increase in inorganic chlorine. This
suggests that CH3Cl may be being photolyzed as it rises high enough in the
stratosphere to experience enough short-wavelength UV. [Fabian et al. ]
[Zander et al. 1987] [Zander et al. 1992] [Penkett et al.]
Methyl chloride (CH3Cl) comes mostly from natural (biological) sources, and
is estimated to pass from the troposphere to the stratosphere at the rate of
about 1 Mt/year. It is reasonable to assume that this flux has been
occurring, at least at this rate, for about a billion years.
Whilst there are well known natural sources of organic and inorganic chlorine,
and proven mechanisms for the transportation to the stratosphere, there are
no demonstrable mechanisms for the removal of HCl from the stratosphere. The
argument that a drop off of HCl with altitude in the troposphere is evidence
of a low natural upward flux, may also be applied to the stratosphere in
reverse.
[From Parsons FAQ, Copyright 1995]
"...the mixing ratio of HCl _decreases_ with altitude in the troposphere,
reaching vanishingly small values at the tropopause, and then _increases_
with altitude in the stratosphere. This rules out all processes in
which HCl slowly drifts upward from the troposphere."
This also implies that there is no downward drift either.
Therefore, if there is no significant sink for HCl in the stratosphere, then
a low flux over millenia of volcanic and biological activity will produce a
large natural burden of inorganic chlorine reservoir compounds in the
stratosphere, at least as significant as the natural tropospheric burden.
Consider that mixing ratio measurements for HCl from Kitt Peak go from 1.6e15
molecules/cm^2 in 1977 to ~2.6e15 molecules/cm^2 in 1990. The source for
this is Rinland et al., J. Geophys. Res. _96_, 15523, 20 Aug 1991 (with
thanks to Robert Parsons). I assume these figures are for stratospheric
HCl only.
Assuming the above figures to be correct, then I calculate:
HCl Mixing ratio = 2.6e15 molecules/cm^2 in 1990
Area of earth = 510E6km^2 = 5.1E18cm^2
No. molecules HCl = 1.326E34 molecules
No. moles HCl = 1.326E34/6.02E23
= 2.2E10 moles
Mass of HCl = 2.2E10 * 36 grams/mole
= 7.9E11 g
= 790 kt
Assuming that the increase is entirely from CFCs (ie avoiding the volcano
debate), the contribution from CFCs is about 2.3kt /year or less than 3%
of total Cl from CFC flux (~1-2Mt/year).
Also calculating the mass of HCl in 1977 and extrapolating backwards, the
natural burden of HCl is about 450 kt.
Therefore inorganic Cl compound flux from CFCs is small compared to the
natural burden of HCl in the stratosphere.
BTW the contribution from natural sources -photolysing of methyl chloride
and perhaps (gasp) volcanos - is about 1/4 of that from CFCs [WMO 1991]
[Solomon] [AASE] [Rowland 1989,1991] [Wayne], or about 500 t/year. This
is the mechanism for generating the 450kt natural burden.
One observation which suggests a natural burden of inorganic Cl follows:
Measurements in the Chappuis ozone absorption band by the Astrophysical
Observatory of the Smithsonian Institution at Mount Wilson, California,
in 1912 were studied by Gotz and others, who reported on the ozone
decline in various publications. Katmai erupted when inorganic chlorine
from anthropogenic sources was probably at negligible levels.
Courtesy Forrest M. Mims III, Sun Photometer Atmospheric Network (SPAN)
Also from Parson - Copyright 1995:
"The total amount of HF
in the stratosphere increased by a factor of 3-4 between 1978 and
1989 [Zander et al., 1990] [Rinsland et al.]; the relative increase
is larger for HF than for HCl (a factor of 2.2 over the same period)
because the natural source, and hence the baseline concentration,
is much smaller."
Translation: there is much more natural stratospheric HCl than HF
arising from anthropogenic sources.
The only evidence against the notion of a large natural burden of inorganic
Cl compounds is that Dobson, as quoted in his book Exploring the Atmosphere
failed to measure a significant drop in ozone in his initial observations
during the 50s and 60s. The reasoning is that since PSCs are naturally
ubiquitous (and ASSUMED a constant factor) then no observed ozone depletion
means no stratospheric Cl compounds.
It is worth noting that one of Dobson's co-workers, Marcel Nicolet, admitted
in a TV interview, that during the 50s and 60s, anomalous readings below
250 DU were not officially recorded because, said Dobson: "Noone
will believe them". (ref: Interview on Belgian TV "Fair skin, stay
in." Sept 18, 1992).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Ozone depletion causes no biological damage.
Ozone depletion at the poles results in insignificant UV increase,
because the sun is so low on the horizon. Also the area affected is
almost entirely devoid of life larger than microbes.
At mid-latitudes increase in UV due to ozone depletion is very low
compared to daily, seasonal and global variations. This is due to an
absence of PSCs (at mid-latitudes) and so ozone depletion only takes
place there in the presence of sulphate aerosols from volcanic activity
(which is natural).
In urban areas of the US, UV-B levels showed no significant increase
(and in most cases actually decreased a little) between 1974 and
1985. [Scotto et al.]. This is probably due to increasing urban
pollution, including low-level ozone and aerosols. [Grant]
[from Parsons FAQ, Copyright 1995]
Several studies [Kerr and McElroy] [Mims] [Seckmayer et al.] [Zerefos
et al.] have presented evidence of short-term UV-B increases at middle
latitudes associated with the record low ozone levels in 1992-93. As
discussed in Part I, these low ozone levels are probably due to
stratospheric sulfate aerosols from the 1991 eruption of Mt.Pinatubo;
Studies done prior to the Mt Pinatubo eruption show no more than a correlation
with the flow of ozone poor polar air during the summertime breakdown of
the polar vorticies. At most the effects are only a few percent, which is
insignificant relative to daily, seasonal and global variations.
There is also considerable evidence which supports the assertion that fatal
melanomas are related to UV-A and natural light (and not UV-B). This means
that it is not possible to correlate ozone depletion with human fatality.
[Balliunas]
Considering the fact that UV levels have not risen significantly in
populated areas, and that it is unlikely that small increases in UV-B will
have negative effects anyway, it is difficult formulate a testable
hypothesis, let alone devise a test to prove that ozone depletion
causes biological harm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The Montreal Protocol is expensive, and ineffective in curbing ozone
depletion.
From MONTREAL PROTOCOL ON SUBSTANCES THAT DEPLETE THE OZONE LAYER
LONDON, 27-29 JUNE 1990
ARTICLE 5: SPECIAL SITUATION OF DEVELOPING COUNTRIES18
1. Any Party that is a developing country and whose annual calculated
level of consumption of the controlled substances in Annex A is less
than 0.3 kilograms per capita on the date of the entry into force of the
Protocol for it, or any time thereafter [within ten years of the date of
entry into force of the Protocol] until 1 January 1999, shall, in order
to meet its basic domestic needs, be entitled to delay for ten years its
compliance with the control measures set out in Articles 2A to 2E [...]
That is over 100 Mt of CFCs, which developing countries may release into
the atmosphere, which is far more than the 1990 annual rate for
developing countries. What's more, further restrictions are based on
the funding of technology transfers from developed to developing
countries, a hidden cost in the abolition of CFCs for countries like
Australia.
Also China, Japan, Indonesia and Korea are not party to the Montreal
Protocol, while developed countries (which are party to the MP) like Australia
are obliged, according to the Montreal Protocol, to pay for the changes in
infrastructure in developing countries.
Not only is the MP an ineffective solution, but it is expensive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
Robert Parsons Ozone FAQ Copyright 1995. In particular
sections (2.6) How is chlorine distributed in the stratosphere?, and
(7.) Why is the hole in the Antarctic?
[Balliunas] Dr Sallie Balliunas PHD, 13th
annual congress of doctors for disaster preparation - "Is the ozone
layer threatened?" 1995.)
[Shanklin]J. D. Shanklin, British Antarctic Survey, personal
communications, 1993-95.
[Rinland et al]Rinland et al., J. Geophys. Res. _96_, 15523, 20 Aug 1991
[Waters et al.] J. Waters, L. Froidevaux, W. Read, G. Manney, L.
Elson, D. Flower, R. Jarnot, and R. Harwood, "Stratospheric ClO and
ozone from the Microwave Limb Sounder on the Upper Atmosphere
Research Satellite", _Nature_ _362_, 597, 1993.
[Gleason et al.] J. Gleason, P. Bhatia, J. Herman, R. McPeters, P.
Newman, R. Stolarski, L. Flynn, G. Labow, D. Larko, C. Seftor, C.
Wellemeyer, W. Komhyr, A. Miller, and W. Planet, "Record Low Global
Ozone in 1992", _Science_ _260_, 523, 1993.
[Farmer et al.] C.B. Farmer, O.F. Raper, and R.H. Norton,
"Spectroscopic detection and vertical distribution of HCl in the
troposphere and stratosphere", Geophys. Res. Lett. 3, 13, 1975.
[Eyre and Roscoe] J. Eyre and H. Roscoe, "Radiometric measurement
of stratospheric HCl", Nature 266, 243, 1977.
[Fabian et al. 1979] P. Fabian, R. Borchers, K.H. Weiler, U.
Schmidt, A. Volz, D.H. Erhalt, W. Seiler, and F. Mueller,
"Simultaneously measured vertical profile of H2, CH4, CO, N2O,
CFCl3, and CF2Cl2 in the mid-latitude stratosphere and
troposphere", J. Geophys. Res. 84, 3149, 1979.
[Fabian et al. 1981] P. Fabian, R. Borchers, S.A. Penkett, and
N.J.D. Prosser, "Halocarbons in the Stratosphere", Nature 294,
733, 1981.
[Penkett et al.] S.A. Penkett, R.G. Derwent, P. Fabian, R.
Borchers, and U. Schmidt, "Methyl Chloride in the Stratosphere",
Nature 283, 58, 1980.
[Zander et al. 1987] R. Zander, C. P. Rinsland, C. B. Farmer, and
R. H. Norton, "Infrared Spectroscopic measurements of halogenated
source gases in the stratosphere with the ATMOS instrument", J.
Geophys. Res. 92, 9836, 1987.
[Zander et al. 1992] R. Zander, M. R. Gunson, C. B. Farmer, C. P.
Rinsland, F. W. Irion, and E. Mahieu, "The 1985 chlorine and
fluorine inventories in the stratosphere based on ATMOS observations
at 30 degrees North latitude", J. Atmos. Chem. 15, 171, 1992.
Subject: Re: Major problem with climate predictions
From: gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com (gdy52150@prairie.lakes.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:01:18 GMT
charliew@hal-pc.org (charliew) wrote:
>In article <57ial3$2th@spool.cs.wisc.edu>,
> tobis@scram.ssec.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis) wrote:
>>charliew (charliew@hal-pc.org) wrote:
>>
>>: Wrong! I have much knowledge of thermo and quantum
>>: mechanics. I also have much knowledge of human nature
>and
>>: the effect of pessimistic/liberal attitudes on peoples'
>>: outlooks on life. I find it amusing that you pessimists
>>: think mankind is intelligent enough to get into trouble
>with
>>: his inventions, but too stupid to find a way out of the
>>: trouble that has been created from those inventions. Oh,
>>: yee of little faith! Based on your outlook and
>assumptions,
>>: it is a miracle that humans have existed on this planet
>for
>>: this long!
>>
>>I can't speak for other pessimists, and I find it
>irritating
>>that people respond to perceived social groups rather than
>>actual arguments.
>>
>>For myself, I think people are smart enough to find
>>solutions, but not smart enough to figure out a way to
>implement
>>them. I think that the evidence that we should avoid
>increasing
>>emissions (NOTE - avoid increasing the annual rate of
>emission,
>>not cut of all emissions) in particular is prudent and
>cost-effective,
>>but fuzzy thinking like charliew's will likely prevent us
>from
>>doing this, and in the end, the price to be paid will be
>much
>>larger than otherwise. This is not because of insufficient
>>understanding as a maximum among the society - the usual
>measure
>>of scientific and engineering progress, but because of
>insufficient
>>understanding among the broad reaches of democracy.
>>
>>If someone as bright as charliew can't be brought to
>understand
>>risk management in the face of uncertainty, how can we hope
>for
>>society as a whole to accede to up-front costs to avoid
>much
>>larger risks, especially when those risks which will be
>proven
>>without doubt only in the event that the policy is
>unsuccessful???
>>
>>At least in conventional insurance situations there's
>usually someone
>>around to say "thank goodness I had the flood insurance".
>We only
>>have one biosphere to play with, and so long as we avoid
>serious
>>problems there will be those who argue that the problems
>were always
>>imaginary. I don't see that society's ability to identify
>legitimate
>>expertise versus junk science is improving, and ultimately
>that's
>>a necessary precursor to a logical response. And even that
>necessity
>>is far from sufficient.
>>
>>mt
>>
>Let's see why I seem to exhibit "fuzzy" thinking. The last
>time I checked, we were all practically doomed by 50 parts
>per trillion of freon in the stratosphere, CO2 is going to
well charlie and the rest of the anti enviro group refuse to cite peer
reviewed work to back their ludicrous claims. But for those that
intrested in the damage of increased uv exposure from ozone
destruction via cfcs. Check out the following article detailing the
increase in skin cancer. Slaper, Nov211996 Nature.
>lead to catastrophic climate change, I can't expect to
well the UN report has already stated that human's are responsable for
a increase in global temp.
>remain healthy if I eat red meat, chicken, fish, traces of
>any kind of pesticide, cholesterol, etc., my drinking water
>has traces of every contaminant known to man in it, bacteria
>are now eating human flesh and getting so strong that no
>antibiotic can affect them, AIDS will kill us all if we
>don't immediately find a cure, and so on, ad nauseum! All
>of these catastrophes are occurring in a time when I am
one effect that has been postulated for global warming is increased
disease
>statistically living longer and healthier than ever before,
>due largely to the technological progress that many
>environmentalists seem so hell-bent to eliminate!
charlie is really clueless. The environment movement is not trying to
eliminate technology,but certainly demand that technolgy proceed in an
environmently friendly way.
>I am sick and tired of the "boy who cried wolf". If
>positive proof exists that something harmful needs
>attention, I don't have a problem in taking action.
well if you read the scientific lit you would already know we have the
positive proof
>However, for all the chicken littles out there, I say it's
>time to put up or shut up! Show me a real problem that will
>ultimately lead to catastrophe, or stop preaching your same
>tired droning sermon! I'm getting very tired of hearing the
>same sad song, especially in a day and age when an optimist
>would say that things have never looked better.
>BTW, have a happy thanksgiving.
Subject: Re: 2000 - so what?
From: Freestone Wilson
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 08:49:31 -0500
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Silvana Grandillo wrote:
>
> Actually, according to some scholars we ARE already in the year 2,000
>
> It is believed, infact, the Christ was born some 4 years before the time
> that it is commonly known.
> So, 1996 would turn into 2,000.
> So, we ARE into the new millenium (according to some who studied the
> matter).
> Does it still matter ?
>
> S.
>
> In article <57f76n$80s_002@leeds.ac.uk>, CDS4AW@leeds.ac.uk says...
> >
> >In article <56vkke$qp6@news.one.net>,
> >api@axiom.access.one.net (Adam Ierymenko) wrote:
> >
> >>Actually, the milennium does matter. I don't think it has
> >any supernatural
> >>significance, but it will feel different. Something about
> >a number with three
> >>zeroes after it. A new *thousand years*.
> >>
> >>It will feel like, well, the future.
> >
> >But I think a lot of people might just wake up one day in
> >March or April 2000 and think, hey, what the hell has
> >changed? because people are kind of seeing it as some "new
> >dawn".... then when they realise nothing has changed,
> >there'll be a lot of pretty pissed off people out there.
> >
> >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >"The most perceptive work on British Politics in the
> >last 150 years may turn out to be 'Alice in Wonderland'"
> >(Neil Middleton, 1993, "Tears of the Crocodile")
> >
> >cds4aw@lucs-01.novell.leeds.ac.uk
> >Any unsolicited e-mail will not even be read,
> >so don't bother.
> >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
...hello.....
i have heard..."the true history of a culture...is its myths"
that 4-BC birthdate of Jesus...is not relavant!!!!!..as it is not part
of the myth, I feel.
each age, is a millenium.....each 1000 year age.
here is my feelings..done on a "jounal-disk".....on this matter, of the
meanings of the end-times millenium. they are part of a series of
visions that i had...on the end-times and earth changes.....
if anyone would like to read the visions, themselves, that i had...in
the 1992-now...time frame...mail me..[[free@polaris.net]]
...freestone
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Date:
Sun, 17 Nov 1996 07:31:45 -0500
From:
Freestone Wilson
To:
hi..again ....here is last night's dream.
i typed it out, for someone else..it is not word wrapped!
,,,freestonenov. 17--i had a dream...that i went to my high school, and
met with fellow students and teachers...from the 1960's!! i have the
suspician that this was partly astral---there may have been a bunch of
people, who OBE--ed to come here. and..somehow i was telling them
something...BEYOND my ordinary knowledge...as if i were, myself,
channeling it, or recieving inspiration.
i hope so!!! for I, who have been recieving all these VISIONS of the
end-times, where "IT BEGINS, IN 1996" (!!!) ...i would HOPE that this
dream is true...as i have had so many visions of great suffering...some
of which, is on this very comment section!
---for "i"..merely told these people..."that the Lord, in his mercy, has
permitted an INDIAN SUMMER of the spirit, to bless the earth, at this
time. ..and that everyone should take great advantage, of this time of
grace, to progress one's soul, and to get right with spirit, and to
finish up all the creative acts, of one's life"!!!
MY!.....in my childhood place of growing-up (where this high school,
is)..there is this thing called, "Indian Summer". it is where there is
a whole stretch of fall, october , weather...of perfect skies...warm
temperatures...calm winds..and the leaves are so so colorfull. it can
go on for a week, or even for several weeks. it is a time for to get
ready for winter; and a time to enjoy the beauty of upstate New York, at
its fine-ist.
so, from this dream...if it IS of spirit, reporting of the will of
the Lord...we will, for a year or so...have a calm earth...no great
major volcanoes..no great disasters!! it is a time to "finish up the
Schoolwork", of one's life-missions...to make amends with all people, to
forgive one and all...to be creative..to reach out to Spirit, and to let
go of what you cannot take with you.
in the Northlands..if there is an Indian Summer...that seems to go on,
perfect; seemingly forever...watch out!!! ---for WHEN the artic blast
comes..it will roar in BIG TIME ..and freeze everything dead, in one
fridgid, freezing, blast...of 40 mph winds..and 10 degrees far.
temperatures..snow covering all!
so..do it now, during this time of grace!---finish up high school, and
prepare for college!
freestone..nov 17
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Freestone Wilson wrote:
>
> that i did not feel that the end-times were "bad"!
> maybe i should briefly summerize my position....
>
>
> {{Why I am not depressed, over the end-time prophetic visions that i
> received!!! }}
> somewhere in the Bible it says that after we go to heaven, after the
> rapture and all of us will be with Jesus...in a new heaven-new
> earth...it is not a FINAL promotion!! for Jesus and the ascended
> masters live in the celestial realms...with God..co-creators with God.
> but, this celestial realm--s is/are far above the new heaven-new earth!
> Jesus comes down, so to speak, and establishes an OUTPOST, of himself,
> and with his saintly helpers..on the new earth; which, this new earth,
> is ABOVE our earth, in vibration. we, from here-now...can not see this
> new earth-to-come...its vibration will be on the lowest level of the"
> heaven-floors"--in this "skyscraper" called "the heavens"!
> there, Jesus will help us all, get ready to be able to go with Him, to
> go live in the Celestial realms--with Jesus...where God is!!!
> a "1000" years to be with Jesus...those who can not "make it"..will
> start again, i imagine..onto a physical earth, somewhere.
>
> ---this is what i mean, by "college"!!
> a "1000" years with Jesus and the Masters...to get us "up to speed"..to
> go live in Jesus's home world!
> because the "natural laws"..of this new earth, will be Spiritual
> laws,(after all, this world will be in the heaven-realms!)...this is why
> "Jesus will be with everyone---he will be before all our eyes"!!
>
> ---it will be as if there are TWO souls, in our hearts...yours---and
> Jesus's!!! when we grow, thus, in our souls, to be the same "size" as
> Jesus's soul...we go into and through him...into his home, celestial,
> worlds!
> all this will occur, after the end-times, rolls over the age...and the
> new age begins...and many of us will be up there, in this new
> college-earth...to begin the course-work, just described!
>
> what will it be like??!!!
> these last few years, have been a foreshadowing of what is to
> come...much creativity...the "NET"..forgiveness...greater love...etc----
> ---we tain't seen nothun, yet!!!!!i cannot imagine the 1,000,000%
> change, after the next age begins!!!
>
> set up long ago..before man walked the earth...
> thus, the Georgian calendar..is only a REFLECTION of this pont of time
> of the changes!!---these changes were set in "concrete"...ages ago...and
> the "year 2000", only reflects this...as the "year 2000" was set up, to
> be "now"!!!---back then..at the church council meetings...1500-odd years
> ago!
>
> too...4000 BC..is the creation. 3000 BC..is the 2nd milleniium
> beginning.
> 0 BC_AD..is the beginning of the 5th millenium. 1000 AD..begins the 6th
> millenium. thus..the 7th millenium begins at 2000 AD!!!
> and it is so---that the "7th day" is a day of rest...meaning:
> NONPHYSICAL!!! the 7th octave, of a "7 tier-system"---is always
> partaking, of the next tier-level, above that one!
> as if the 7th year, of a grade school/ high school, partakes of the
> COLLEGE, to come, after graduation!
>
> non-physical!
> be with Jesus, Individually...He will be a Private tutor..for each of
> us, individually. (or some other Master, perhaps, for some!)...we will
> learn to be living in the Celestial-realms, with this tutoring. .the
> lower Celestial realms, after our "1000 years"..will be our GRAD
> SCHOOL!! the doctor's degree, we will study for, there ..will enable
> us to become Citizens of the Galaxy!!!...the "Galactic Foundation"..of
> progressed spirit-races...from all over the galaxy..much like our
> science fiction writers have imagined!!
> we are getting a taste OF THIS CELESTIAL REALM, NOW...if WE CAN OPEN
> TO IT..AND NOT LET OUR "SINS".....become what is manifested...as the
> "tares WILL sprout, along with the wheat"!!!
> --Freestone
>
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Subject: Re: Mountain Bikers Are Carrying GUNS!
From: drh92@aber.ac.uk (DANIEL ROBERT HOLDSWORTH)
Date: 28 Nov 1996 18:04:52 -0000
In article <01bbda6c$254dcf00$185392cf@rayspaw>, "Ray Spaw"
writes:
:On the other hand, a pistol of appropriate caliber for anticipated animal
:hazards, with hunting ammo can certainly be handy if there's a mastiff or
:pit bull you can't outrun or shout down, as happened to a friend recently.
:Luckily he had a 9mm with him (licensed) and the pit bull that attacked him
:was dispatched quickly on the road.
There was an old design of low-calibre pistol made, probably around the
turn of the century or maybe a little later, called a "Velo-dog" pistol.
The device was small calibre, around .22 to .25, with a folding trigger and
no trigger guard. It was only about a 2 shot design, designed to fire
mushrooming or expanding ammo, with the intent of either killing or crippling
any dog it was used on, thus allowing the cyclist to escape.
In the UK these days, it seems like you can't even say you own a firearm
of any sort without being labeled a dangerous lunatic. However, making
a paintball gun that fires either an irritant, such as powdered cayenne
pepper dust, or an adhesive, or something, is attractive, as is making a
very powerful waterpistol, and loading it with a gel/slime mix containing
capsaicin, plus some stinking agent, plus an anti-lick agent.
This latter idea is probably the best; coat the dog with something that
really smells dreadful and is distasteful enough that the dog won't lick
it off. That would be a memorable experience for both dog and owner...
:Interestingly, a local deputy witnessed
:it and, after checking my friend's license, went to the owner's house and
:told him to collect the carcass off the road. It's unfortunate that the
:owner was vicious and taught his dog to be likewise. I didn't hear if the
:owner saved the pelt and meat, though. ;)
Nah, prdators are usually not good eating, and unless it was an interesting
brindle or pure white, I'd probably not bother with the pelt, either.
If you want decent pelts, go looking for roadkilled cats or rabbits...
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java
that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a
warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Dan Holdsworth, drh92@aber.ac.uk **SPAMMERS WILL BE FILTERED**
