Subject: GARDEN STATE ENVIRONEWS 970112
From: gsenet@nac.net (Phil Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:18:41
970112
GARDEN STATE ENVIRONEWS
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
TABLE OF CONTENTS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* 3RD MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
* RITUAL TURTLE RELEASE-BAD FOR TURTLES
* ERIISNET ENVIRONMENTAL PROPERTY INFORMATION SERVICE
* THE GUIDE TO A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
3RD MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
Date: 11 Jan 1997
From: Tula Tsalis
THE INSTITUTE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES Ramapo College of New Jersey
505 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, N.J. 07430-1680
presents
The 3rd Mid-Atlantic Environmental Conference
WHAT WORKS FOR SUSTAINABLE COMMUNITIES - and The Sustainable Village
April 18-20, 1997
In the face of environmental degradations and economic insecurity,
people across the country and the globe are creating innovations that
make their communities work. This conference spotlights outstanding
"what works" innovations emerging from local communities, linking them
to regional, national and global strategies, and to the U.N. debates
about sustainability, in order to initiate new paths to "sustainable
communities." Friday, April 18: ECOLOGICAL LITERACY: What kind of
learning and knowledge is required for a society that respects the
Earth, its communities and its people? What are the exemplary
eco-literacy models for the community, higher education, for
elementary and secondary education, and for the faith community? Such
leading voices as David Orr and Tony Cortese have been invited.
Saturday, April 19: WHAT IS REAL SUSTAINABILITY? What are the best
models & strategies for achieving ecological, social and economic
sustainability at the community level? What are the best practices
for: Redefining Progress . Ecologically Sound Economics . Corporate
Accountability . Environmental Justice . Ecological Conservation .
Local Investment & Currencies . Community Building . Sustainable
Agriculture & Permaculture . Housing Alternatives . Holistic Health .
Waste Reduction & Management . Renewable Energy & Conservation .
Sustainable Transportation . Ecological Design and Planning . Peace
and Security . Evening fundraiser dinner and celebration.
Sunday, April 20: ENABLING SUSTAINABILITY: What People Can Do to
Create Sustainable Communities & Livelihoods? . Environmentally &
Socially Responsible Investing . Foundation and Government support .
Local Currencies . Sustainability Initiatives . Community-Based
Investments and Jobs . Local-Global Networking and Sustainability
Organizing . New Technologies (GIS, Community Mapping & Planning,
Diffusion of Information Technology) . Consensus Building and Conflict
Resolution.
AND THE SUSTAINABLE VILLAGE - A "What Works" interactive exhibit that
will make sustainability come alive.
The Sustainable Village is a project in cooperation with The
Mid-Atlantic Sustainable Communities Network. The Sustainable Village
will include a commons or "agora" for visioning citizen initiatives,
public discussion and the arts; a town hall working for the community;
an ecological school and library; a food coop; local/regional
ecologically-sound products; a holistic-health center, etc. The
Sustainable Village will be featured throughout the conference. For
information and proposals call Ramapo College: (201)529-7742 or 6440.
You may also write to The Mid-Atlantic Sustainable Communities
Network, P.O. Box 998, Warwick, N.Y. 10990.
AN INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE: We invite individuals and groups to
submit "what works" models, information about new social innovations,
or new products and services that enhance sustainability, or to become
an active networking participant.
To volunteer for The Sustainable Village, "People's Music", local
arts/theatre, solar and energy conservation exhibits, design ideas for
"hands on" possibilities for low-cost, hands on, energy conscious
housing, etc.are welcome.
FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE 3rd MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
call Ramapo College, (201) 529-6440 or 7742. Fax (201)529-7508 or
7637. Email: eco-conf@ramapo.edu. The What Works for Sustainable
Communities www home page will soon be online:
http://ultrix.ramapo.edu/sustain/
Proposals may be mailed to Tula Tsalis, Coordinator of Environmental
Education, Institute for Environmental Studies, Ramapo College of New
Jersey. All proposals will be carefully considered.
Please post and share with others
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
RITUAL TURTLE RELEASE-BAD FOR TURTLES
Date: 11 Jan 1997 From: ASalzberg@aol.com
Buddhist ritual turtle release-bad for turtles
January 11, 1997
Good Karma May Be Bad for the Environment
By DEBRA WEST
NEW YORK -- On a recent wintry day, seven people and 2,500 goldfish
left a storefront temple in Chinatown and set out on a quest.
They boarded a white Mazda van. Chao Fan, a saffron-robed Buddhist
monk, sat up front, his small congregation squeezed in behind, and the
fish, straining against the clear plastic of three garbage bags, rode
in the rear cargo space. The van inched across lower Manhattan and
then drove across the New Jersey Turnpike.
Undaunted by a slightly freezing rain, the group got out on the bank
of Westons Mill Pond, a reservoir for the city of New Brunswick. As
Fan tapped a bell and his followers recited sutras, or prayers, Wanda
Wong untied the bags and set the 2,500 goldfish free.
It has long been a custom among some Buddhists to liberate animals
whose destiny would otherwise involve a lifetime of captivity or worse
-- dinner. Setting animals free is considered an act of compassion
that will be rewarded with good karma.
But to some environmentalists it is also a practice that threatens
native species. They are urging states to enforce laws against it.
"This has got to stop," said Ward Stone, a wildlife pathologist with
the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. "Maybe
somebody should go down and talk to the religious leaders and explain
to them that this is not a good thing."
The problem with releasing goldfish has nothing to do with water
quality. It is that they are such hearty fish, said Robert Soldwedel,
chief of the Bureau of Freshwater Fisheries of the New Jersey division
of fish, game and wildlife.
"They are so prolific as breeders, they have an edge over the natural
population," Soldwedel said. "They overpopulate and kill off the
perch, sunfish, catfish and everything else."
Captive birds, too, can overwhelm native species, but freeing caged
finches and parakeets more often amounts to killing them with
kindness, said Larry Niles, chief of the wildlife division's non-game
and endangered species program.
"The reality of it is the birds are going to end up getting eaten by
something," he added. "They are born and raised in a cage, they don't
know how to survive, and there are all kinds of predators out there."
The animals that cause the greatest alarm among environmentalists are
the turtles, which are sold in Chinatown for "cooking or releasing."
Environmentalists have known for years that turtles, which are
revered for their longevity, have been released by Buddhists into
ponds in Brooklyn's Prospect Park and in Central Park, said Michael
Klemens, a herpetologist and expert in turtle conservation.
"That's not much of a concern, because those are artificial
environments anyway," said Klemens, the director of program
development for the Wildlife Conservation Society at the Bronx Zoo.
Indeed, so many turtles have been released in Belvedere Lake in
Central Park (by some Buddhists and also by dissatisfied pet owners)
that 10 years ago the city renamed the lake Turtle Pond, Parks
Commissioner Henry Stern said.
What worries Klemens are reports that people are buying turtles at
fish markets in Chinatown, carrying them 60 miles to a Buddhist
monastery in Putnam County and setting them free in a lake on the
monastery's property.
"Many of these captive turtles are unhealthy," Klemens said. "They
have diseases that come from living in crammed, marginal conditions,
things that don't occur naturally."
The pond at the monastery, Chuang Yen, on 125 wooded acres in the
town of Kent, is almost irresistible for those who seek a haven for
turtles. Tour buses carry visitors from Chinatown to the monastery
every Saturday and Sunday in the warm weather. The monastery, with its
welcoming Seven Jewels pond, and its reputation for compassion, is in
the heart of native turtle country.
"There are more than 12 species of turtles native to the Hudson
Valley," Klemens said. "Half of them are on the state's protected
list. All are threatened by the release of bought turtles. Once
diseases get out into the wild, they are much more dangerous to the
turtle population. Our native turtles in upstate New York are already
in jeopardy because of the destruction of their environment by
development."
Alvin Breisch, a specialist in amphibians and reptiles in the
endangered species unit of the Department of Environmental
Conservation, has an additional concern.
"They could be messing up the gene pool," he said, noting that
turtles like the red-eared sliders native to the southeastern states
could reproduce and introduce traits that are harmful in New York.
Monastery officials say they are sensitive to the criticism. They say
they do not encourage people to release turtles in their pond.
"People want to do a good deed and the first thing they think of is
this temple," said Li Ching Shyu, a trustee at the Buddhist
Association of the United States, which oversees Chuang Yen. "What can
we do?"
Sometimes people will buy an animal and drop it off in a pond or
stream on their way home, but often the practice is more organized.
Fan, who heads the Guan Kwong Temple of America in Chinatown, says
members of his congregation release animals whenever they feel they
have collected enough money to buy a sizable number for freeing. He
says there are 20 or more Chinese Buddhist temples in New York City
whose congregations also release animals. The richer the congregation,
he said, the more often they free animals. Some temples release
animals every evening after a prayer service.
The congregation from Guan Kwong ordered the goldfish from an
aquarium on Delancey Street for $125.
"It's not the money, it's the lives that count," said Anne Shu, who
lives in Livingston, N.J., but worships at the Guan Kwong temple.
Fan elaborated. Buddhists are vegetarian, he said, and "to us, all
lives are equal."
Qui Mingjiang, who did outreach with the Chinese community for the
Wildlife Conservation Society at the Bronx Zoo, has gone to Chinatown
several times to discuss conservation issues. The custom of releasing
animals in the hopes of improving one's karma has roots reaching back
to Asia, he said, and therefore will be difficult to stop.
"Buddhists believe that to achieve a better situation in the next
life or to improve the quality of this life, you must perform good
acts," he said.
The first scriptural reference to the practice of releasing animals
appears in a Chinese sutra from the mid-fifth century, said Raoul
Birnbaum, a professor of Buddhist Studies at the University of
California in Santa Cruz.
By the eighth century, the tradition received state sanction. When
rebels challenged the Chinese empire in 759, the emperor responded by
ordering the construction of 81 releasing ponds throughout the
country.
"I think he was hoping he could generate some merit out of it,"
Birnbaum said. "But I don't think it helped him."
But merit is harder to come by in these times.
Stone, the wildlife pathologist, conducted an autopsy on 16 turtles,
red-eared sliders, that were released in Harriman State Park in Orange
County in the fall of 1993 and died of exposure. Witnesses described
seeing people in saffron robes releasing the turtles.
"These kinds of releases generally have bad outcomes," he wrote in a
memorandum on the investigation. "The person releasing the turtles may
have meant well, but it was fatal to these creatures."
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ERIISNET ENVIRONMENTAL PROPERTY INFORMATION SERVICE
Date: 12 Jan 1997
From: envr_jobs@mailzone.com (ENVIRONMENTAL JOBS BULLETIN)
________________________________________________________________
THE ENVIRONMENTAL BUSINESS, TECHNOLOGY, and MARKETS NEWSLETTER
________________________________________________________________
Volume 3, Number 2 - Internet Distribution Copy.
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SERVICES RELEASES ERIISNET 4.0
========================================================
(Important news for all our Phase 1 friends)
Herndon, Virginia-based Environmental Risk Information &
Imaging Services (ERIIS), a leading publisher of environmental
due diligence property reports, announced today the fourth and
most extensive upgrade release of ERIISnet.
ERIISnet is an nationwide on-line environmental property
information service currently used by more than 2,000
environmental professionals, lenders, investors, developers,
lawyers, corporate real estate officers and REITportfolio
managers to access the environmental risk profile for any site
in the U.S., within seconds, from their own desktop personal
computers. "The most significant enhancement to ERIISnet 4.0 is
the ability to conduct on-line archive searches of ERIIS'
Historic Map Collection," said ERIIS President Dan Prickett.
"Previously, Sanborn and other historic map search requests
were handled off-line, and it took two to three days to learn
whether or not the site had map coverage. With ERIISnet 4.0,
historic map search results are returned in under three
minutes, allowing customers to make better use of those two to
three days of waiting time."
Another new feature of ERIISnet 4.0 is the ability to process
large bulk portfolio orders from lending and secondary market
customers without requiring manual entry. Typically, customers
had to manually enter each ERIISnet site request at their PC,
which can add up to hundreds of requests at any one time. Now
users can electronically send ERIIS a spreadsheet containing
information regarding the sites, and ERIIS converts it so that
all requests are delivered back at once.
ERIISnet 4.0 now allows users to download both reports and maps
during one brief connection. Previously, users would run a
report and then have to re-connect to retrieve the map, which
then took a few minutes longer to download.
Available with just a local, toll-free phone call from anywhere
in the U.S., this interactive on-line nvironmental information
service gives users access in seconds to ERIIS' full range of
Federal, state and local government environmental regulatory
records information for any commercial, industrial or
residential property in the U.S. These databases are
accessible through ERIISnet's proprietary, on-line system and
its easy-to-use free software, that can be used on any
Windows-based PC over local, toll-free telephone lines. Access
to ERIISnet is free -- there is no subscription fee, connect
time or line charges.
The benefits of ERIISnet's on-line access to property-specific
environmental risk assessment information include: screening of
a larger number of properties for portfolio review of potential
environmental risk in a single step and faster access to a wide
range of historic environmental property information. Printed
reports from other environmental information companies
may require a delay of as long as a week for processing and
delivery while ERIISnet allows users to environmentally screen
properties while their clients are on the phone.
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::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
THE GUIDE TO A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE
Date: 10 Jan 1997
From: The Green Disk Journal
THE GUIDE TO A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE ....
... a special edition from the editor's of The Green Disk: a
journal of contemporary environmental issues. Included are four
sections outlining the transformation of design, energy systems,
agriculture, and materials flow necessary for a positive future:
* Ecological Building and Design
* Organic and Sustainable Agriculture
* Wood Conservation and Alternative Fibers
* Renewable and Clean Energy
This 1400 page volume is a comprehensive guide to the
organizations, agencies, projects, campaigns and companies that
are the vanguard on the path to sustainability. Each of the four
sections contains extensive background articles, news, and
resource listings. Included are:
* 232 full text reports and articles, and over 1700 references.
* 563 Web sites, listservs, CD-roms, and database listings.
* Listings of 552 books, reports, videos, and other resources.
* 377 contacts for information, products, and networking.
THE GUIDE TO A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE is published on disk in
Macintosh and IBM editions, and includes a user interface for
reading and keyword searching. The disks, manual, and packaging
are all made of 100% recycled content.
The Green Disk has been featured by Mother Jones, E,
Alternatives, Earth Island Journal, Wild Earth, The Green Money
Journal, Information Today, The Green Business Letter, National
Public Radio, and many others.
THE GUIDE TO A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE is $35 postpaid, US or
International. Payment is by VISA/MC or a US bank check. Make
sure to indicate preference for the Macintosh or IBM edition.
Visit our Web site at http://www.igc.org/greendisk for more
information and to order online. Phone/fax toll-free
1-888-GRN-DISK. Email , or write to The Green
Disk, POB 32224, Washington, DC 20007.
-- Please forward this message where appropriate. --
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* G A R D E N S T A T E E N V I R O N E T *
* Tel 201-586-4128 MAILBOX@GSENET.ORG Fax 201-627-8616 *
* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *
* EcoNet Conference: env.nj *
* WWW Site: http://www.gsenet.org *
* BBS: 201-627-9213, 8N1, ANSI, 14400 *
* Listserver: majordomo@igc.org subscribe gsenet-L *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
=END=
Subject: 3RD MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
From: gsenet@nac.net (Phil Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 13:20:56
970112
3RD MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Date: 11 Jan 1997
From: Tula Tsalis
THE INSTITUTE FOR ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES Ramapo College of New Jersey
505 Ramapo Valley Road, Mahwah, N.J. 07430-1680
presents
The 3rd Mid-Atlantic Environmental Conference
WHAT WORKS FOR SUSTAINABLE COMMUNITIES - and The Sustainable Village
April 18-20, 1997
In the face of environmental degradations and economic insecurity,
people across the country and the globe are creating innovations that
make their communities work. This conference spotlights outstanding
"what works" innovations emerging from local communities, linking them
to regional, national and global strategies, and to the U.N. debates
about sustainability, in order to initiate new paths to "sustainable
communities." Friday, April 18: ECOLOGICAL LITERACY: What kind of
learning and knowledge is required for a society that respects the
Earth, its communities and its people? What are the exemplary
eco-literacy models for the community, higher education, for
elementary and secondary education, and for the faith community? Such
leading voices as David Orr and Tony Cortese have been invited.
Saturday, April 19: WHAT IS REAL SUSTAINABILITY? What are the best
models & strategies for achieving ecological, social and economic
sustainability at the community level? What are the best practices
for: Redefining Progress . Ecologically Sound Economics . Corporate
Accountability . Environmental Justice . Ecological Conservation .
Local Investment & Currencies . Community Building . Sustainable
Agriculture & Permaculture . Housing Alternatives . Holistic Health .
Waste Reduction & Management . Renewable Energy & Conservation .
Sustainable Transportation . Ecological Design and Planning . Peace
and Security . Evening fundraiser dinner and celebration.
Sunday, April 20: ENABLING SUSTAINABILITY: What People Can Do to
Create Sustainable Communities & Livelihoods? . Environmentally &
Socially Responsible Investing . Foundation and Government support .
Local Currencies . Sustainability Initiatives . Community-Based
Investments and Jobs . Local-Global Networking and Sustainability
Organizing . New Technologies (GIS, Community Mapping & Planning,
Diffusion of Information Technology) . Consensus Building and Conflict
Resolution.
AND THE SUSTAINABLE VILLAGE - A "What Works" interactive exhibit that
will make sustainability come alive.
The Sustainable Village is a project in cooperation with The
Mid-Atlantic Sustainable Communities Network. The Sustainable Village
will include a commons or "agora" for visioning citizen initiatives,
public discussion and the arts; a town hall working for the community;
an ecological school and library; a food coop; local/regional
ecologically-sound products; a holistic-health center, etc. The
Sustainable Village will be featured throughout the conference. For
information and proposals call Ramapo College: (201)529-7742 or 6440.
You may also write to The Mid-Atlantic Sustainable Communities
Network, P.O. Box 998, Warwick, N.Y. 10990.
AN INVITATION TO PARTICIPATE: We invite individuals and groups to
submit "what works" models, information about new social innovations,
or new products and services that enhance sustainability, or to become
an active networking participant.
To volunteer for The Sustainable Village, "People's Music", local
arts/theatre, solar and energy conservation exhibits, design ideas for
"hands on" possibilities for low-cost, hands on, energy conscious
housing, etc.are welcome.
FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THE 3rd MID-ATLANTIC ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE
call Ramapo College, (201) 529-6440 or 7742. Fax (201)529-7508 or
7637. Email: eco-conf@ramapo.edu. The What Works for Sustainable
Communities www home page will soon be online:
http://ultrix.ramapo.edu/sustain/
Proposals may be mailed to Tula Tsalis, Coordinator of Environmental
Education, Institute for Environmental Studies, Ramapo College of New
Jersey. All proposals will be carefully considered.
Please post and share with others
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* G A R D E N S T A T E E N V I R O N E T *
* Tel 201-586-4128 MAILBOX@GSENET.ORG Fax 201-627-8616 *
* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *
* EcoNet Conference: env.nj *
* WWW Site: http://www.gsenet.org *
* BBS: 201-627-9213, 8N1, ANSI, 14400 *
* Listserver: majordomo@igc.org subscribe gsenet-L *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
=END=
Subject: Re: The Limits To Growth
From: brshears@whale.st.usm.edu (Harold Brashears)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:08:03 GMT
Jim wrote:
>Harold Brashears wrote:
>>
>> Jim wrote:
[edited]
>> In other words, you do feel that you have the information and the
>> intelligence to decide for other people what rights are "major" and
>> which rights are minor, hence you may advocate that a government must
>> enforce your definition of important rights.
>>
>> What do you do if someone disagrees with you definition of what is a
>> "minor" right?
>
>I do not. Such matters are issues of personal philosophy, but I believe
>there are some points we can agrees on, and from those points, we can
>logically work upward to practical real-world policy.
Like what points?
>I think most
>conflicts have more to do with skewed logic than basic philosophical
>points. I tend to avoid philosophical tangles about who owns what, who
>is infringing on who's rights, who was here first, and so on. I simply
>wish for the greatest number of people to benefit the most. In other
>words, the more good we can do for the world, the better.
While there are circumstances where I could agree with this general
philosophy, in this case you appear to simply be saying that rights
mean absolutely nothing, if, in your opinion, more people would
benefit by the loss of a right than would be hurt. This philosophy is
lacking, when it comes to actual application.
The problem would be, of course, the fact that you believe that you
can figure this all out. Let's examine a simple test case, to see how
you might apply the philosophy. Assume that you are indeed the all
powerful Poobah In Charge of Increasing Good, and you are apprised of
a situation where some process serves to keep 100 people alive, but
harms 101 (or a million) others in some specified fashion that they
consider extremely important.
Clearly, you, as the all powerful Poobah In Charge of Increasing Good,
must balance the harm by the process to the greater number by the good
to the smaller. You must determine if their right to life is of
greater consequence than the right to unharmed existence. What do you
do? Do you take the number helped, multiply by your estimate of the
amount of help to get the "good" on their side. Then multiply the
harm done to the other side by the number on the other side to arrive
at the "greater good"?
If you attempt this, are you not deciding who has the right to live
and who has the right to avoid some harm? How is this not entangling
in "rights"?
[edited]
>> But you have put yourself in the postion of deciding what constitutes
>> a good thing. I must admit I do not feel comfortable with you
>> deciding what rights I can keep and what I may not. Possibly you
>> would consider the alternative. I will decide what rights you can
>> keep for the good of the majority? Is that satisfactory to you?
>
>No, public policy should be decided by a majority opinion.
In this extreme of public opinion, we see that the 101 can indeed
overrule the 100, and decide that the 100 must suffer, or even die,
since they are not the majority opinion. Is this your intent? If
not, does it take the Poobah In Charge of Increasing Good to come
along and rule that the lives of the 100 are worth the harm to the
majority?
>If I am
>overruled in that forum, I can handle that, but I will always seek to
>alter the opinions of others, as I am doing now. At this point, neither
>of us have any power to significantly control the rights being debated
>here, so yours is an empty offer.
>By the way, there are basically 2 values I can identify that we should
>serve:
>1. Quality of life-When a person is happy, that is good.
How do you judge "happy"? It makes some people happy to use the
property of others without compensation. Is this OK? Do you use the
self appraisal of "happy", and let each person determine how happy
they are, compared to other's happy? What is two people are made
happy by opposite results?
>2. Inherent values-This is the inherent value of life and nature.
How do you define this? It appears here that you are saying that
there are some inherent values, which may trump your earlier "greater
good for the greater number" philosophy. Is this your intent? Are
there cases where you think that the majority opinion is incorrect?
Are you competent to figure these out?
>This is getting philosophical, and that is a matter of personal outlook,
>so I will leave these ideas for you to judge.
Sorry, I cannot judge, as it is incomplete.
Regards, Harold
----
"The citizenry should live...in socialistic communities of
3000 or less and...consume only what they produce"
- Rodolph Bahro, co-founder, German Green Movement. cit. "Rio
Reductionism", Media Watch, July 1992.
Subject: Re: No Nukes?(was: Asteroid strike!!)
From: brshears@whale.st.usm.edu (Harold Brashears)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:26:56 GMT
"D. Braun" wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Harold Brashears wrote:
>
>> "D. Braun" wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Harold Brashears wrote:
>> >
>> >> "D. Braun" wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [edited]
>> >>
>> >> >Except times have changed. One rebel faction of a country may believe it
>> >> >is in their best interest to set off a "suitcase bomb" (perhaps a tactical
>> >> >nuke bought from the Russian mafia) in Central Park, NYC, because they
>> >> >disagree with US policy in regard to the government with which they
>> >> >disagree. Examples of this scenario abound, based on our immoral
>> >> >"friendly dictators policy", aka the Kirkpatrick Doctrine, which has
>> >> >continued under Clinton, weasel words to the contrary. Then what? Do we
>> >> >nuke the country these people came from? Probably not. Disarmament, in a
>> >> >phased fashion, would seem to be the answer.
>> >>
>> >> You are going to get rebel factions to agree to disarmnment? Who will
>> >> you negoiatate with in the PLO or the IRA?
>> >
>> >I didn't say that. We would negotiate with the major powers, to get them
>> >to agree to disamament.
>>
>> The problem with that is that some of the possessors may not be "major
>> powers". Do you know some way to insure that the IRA has not already
>> purchased a bomb from a Russian general?
>
>No. But we pressure the Russians to dissarm and destroy their stockpiles.
>Terrorist groups can be marginalized, by appealing to political factions
>with grievances which have renounced violence.
How in the world do you "marginalize" a terrorist group with an atomic
bomb? By appealing to other groups, this will remove the bomb? Are
you depending on them feeling bad about their bomb, and surrendering
it, because you have appealed to other, nonviolent, groups? You can
try that, but I hope the President does not.
>As we found with Om
>(spelling?) in Japan, one need not use nukes to spread terror; if they had
>been more successful, gas attacks could have killed 10s of thousands in
>the subways.
This makes it OK to use an atomic bomb, because they could just as
well have used gas? I am sorry, but the analogy escapes me.
[edited]
>I have said on this thread that it will take time, and not be perfect or
>guaranteed. It is still the best option to reduce the possibility of
>nukes being used.
I am sorry again, but if it is not guaranteed, it will not ever work.
No leader of any country, free or otherwise, will be the second to
last one to destroy his nuclear weapons. Nor will they destroy theirs
if they think that someone else is hiding some. Iraq showed how easy
it is to hide some missiles.
>Their time has passed, as one Pentagon veteran recently
>told the press.
Oh great, you found a "Pentagon veteran" who is willing to bet his
life and everyone else's that he can accurately know who has weapons
and who has not. You have much more faith in the US intelligence
agencies than I do.
>Who do you nuke when that splinter group you never heard
>of sets one off? Better to reduce the supply, and get international
>agreements that use will completely ostracise, freeze-out, and
>marginalize any group that wishes to gain by nuclear terrorism.
>Better idea?
You did not answer the question, how do you "marginalize" the last
nation or group with atomic weapons? You better hope you do not
succeed if you start, since this may simply force them to use what
they have!
>> I think it will not be possible to get rid of nuclear weapons until
>> there is a defense against them.
>
>And this one is not very substantive either. So called "Star Wars"
>missile defenses are boondoggles, which simply contribute to the arms
>race.
I was noting a historical fact. You note there are no current
treaties restricting the use of catapults in siege warfare, even
though this was a problem for hundreds of years. If you think that
all progress in military hardware will now cease, I hope you are not
in the majority. Every group that has taken a similar stance in the
past no longer exists.
Regards, Harold
----
"I think if we don't overthrow capitalism, we don't have a
chance of saving the world ecologically. I think it's
possible to have an ecologically sound society under socialism.
I don't think it's possible under capitalism."
- Judi Barry, Earth First,"Policy Review", Jonathon Adler,
summer 1992
