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Subject: Re: Vatican immorality (was: Family Planning... -- From: mcdermot@ica.net (E. McDermott)
Subject: Re: Curiousity. . . -- From: dmills@inseine.ifmt.nf.ca (Jennifer Mills)
Subject: Re: A case against nuclear energy? -- From: Dennis Nelson
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium -- From: "Jack A. Bush"
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment -- From: "pipo "
Subject: Rural Energy and Development -- From: "ir W.E. Klunne (ITC rural energy specialist)"
Subject: Renewable Energy News -- From: Steve Segrest
Subject: Re: COORS, CHEMICALS, AND CANCER - Boulder Weekly 1/9/97 -- From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Photosynthesis and Florida Everglades -- From: claysierra@aol.com (ClaySierra)
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium -- From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment -- From: "pipo "
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment -- From: "pipo "
Subject: Re: Employment in Australia? -- From: "Marejka H. Shaevitz"
Subject: GARDEN STATE ENVIRONEWS 970118 -- From: gsenet@nac.net (Phil Reynolds)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not? -- From: ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium -- From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: HELP a student -- From: Valérie Langlois
Subject: Re: Chicken Little nature-haters: wrong again, -- ho hum.... -- From: bashford@psnw.com (Doug Bashford)
Subject: STARTERS'BOOK SPAM MASSIVELY MULTIPOSTED -- From: abg21@dial.pipex.com (Nick Hunter)
Subject: Re: Untrue accusations (was: Vatican immorality) -- From: cathliu@mail.utexas.edu (Catherine Y. Liu)
Subject: On Hardin: an interview and commentary -- Ecology, Economy, and Ethics -- From: bashford@psnw.com (Doug Bashford)
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium -- From: "Rick Tarara"
Subject: TVA may need more power plants. -- From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not? -- From: redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin)
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not? -- From: redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin)
Subject: Re: 2000 - so what? -- From: s302728@student.uq.edu.au (Ruediger Landmann)

Articles

Subject: Re: Vatican immorality (was: Family Planning...
From: mcdermot@ica.net (E. McDermott)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 06:16:00 GMT
yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
>a) Do you think increasing global population presents dangers to the
>survival of Nature and wilderness on our planet?
>b) Do you think that the Vatican's policy of opposing the use of
>contraceptives in poor Catholic countries contributes to poverty and the
>destruction of Nature in these countries?
>c) Do you think poverty and suffering in poor countries around the world
>can be alleviated -- realistically -- without a wide use of
>contraceptives?
The answers are so simple and straight forward that I'm always amazed
by this conflict.
To begin with, large families are a characteristics of societies where
child labour is needed for the familiy survival, usually ones where
there's a high infant mortality. As we solve point three, the
overpopulation will recede.
Poor Catholic countries? Like Uganda, India, Burma, Sir Lanka. I don't
know that there's an forced relationship between poverty and religion.
I'd say you could find a closer fit between native language and
religion. 
As for population, and Christianity causing poverty, I would suggest
you look closer to Europe. War creates poverty. It did in Vietnam,
Madagascar, Afghanistan, Angola. Let's eliminate war.
By the way, from you positions, I will assume that you also believe
that artificial insemination, fertility drugs, sperm banks, freezing
embroyos and that whole host of population enhancing techniques should
also be banned. Doesn't it worry you that this puts you in the
position of supporting the Catholic Church?
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Curiousity. . .
From: dmills@inseine.ifmt.nf.ca (Jennifer Mills)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:20:54 GMT
in6.bud@peinet.pe.ca wrote:
>I'm 17, and I live on P.E.I., in Canada. I am very deeply 
>interested in becoming active in environmental issues, but I really don't 
>know where to begin. Any suggestions? (and please don't patronize)
>					Mari
Hello, Mari
        I'm also 17 and I'm from Newfoundland, Canada.  Like you, I am
deeply interested in becoming active in environmental issues.  I
personally would like to persue a career in the area.
        Living on an island my interests focus on the water (marine
pollution).  My city harbour is one of the most polluted in the world.
I try to keep up to date with all issues, but like you I am looking
for suggestions on really getting my feet wet.
        Do you have an e-mail adress?  (in6.bud@peinet.pe.ca) didn't
work for me.  If so,  maybe we could keep in touch.  If you find an
environmental area you like, or start doing something, drop me a line.
I'll do the same.
                                                            Good-luck,
                                                            Jennifer
Return to Top
Subject: Re: A case against nuclear energy?
From: Dennis Nelson
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:40:40 -0800
Ron Jeremy wrote:
> 
> Dennis Nelson (innrcrcl@erols.com) wrote:
> : B. Alan Guthrie wrote:
> : >
> : >    The buildup of non-fissile isotopes, such as Pu-240 and Pu-242, does
> : >    not significantly poison the chain reaction.  Rather, the chain
> : >    reaction becomes less efficient due to the depletion of the fissile
> : >    (U-235, Pu-239, Pu-241) isotopes.  As energy is produced the fissile
> : >    isotopes are consumed and the neutron multiplication in the core
> : >    decreases.
> :
> : I submit that it is not just depletion of fissionable isotopes which
> : decreases the energy production but the accumulation of fission
> : products and transuranics with high neutron cross sections which
> : parasitically absorb neutrons effectively acting as chain terminators
> : to the chain reaction.
> 
> While it may be true that fission poisons due buildup over core life, the
> predominate factor is the depletion of fissile material.  Of course you
> knew that the two major fission poisons, Xe-135 and Sm-149 quickly reach
> equilibrium values.
> 
> : If what you say above were true then the Navy propulsion reactors,
> : which use highly enriched uranium would never have to change their fuel
> : rods.
> 
> This must have been a joke...
No, only partially a joke.  Consider this analysis.  If power reactors operate
on 3% enriched uranium for three years before changing fuel rods, then you
should be able to operate on 30% enriched fuel for 30 years and, since Navy
power reactors use 60 to 70% enriched fuel, they should be able to operate
for 60 to 70 years without a fuel change if depletion of U-235 were the only
criterion.  There might be a slight decrement in the transmutation of U-238
to Pu-239 however since there is less around.
BTW can anyone explain why mixed oxide fuels, containing significant fractions 
of Pu, are not used in Navy propulsion reactors?
> : Even U-238 will fission if you get the neutrons to move fast enough.  This
> : was the principle behind the so-called uranium bomb extolled in the 1950s.
> : But I would hate to try to control it in a reactor.
> 
> Apparently you confuse "fast" neutrons and "prompt" neutrons.  "Fast"
> neutrons do not make the reactor any more difficult unless they make the
> reactor prompt critical.  The delayed neutron fraction ensures that, for
> small reactivity insertions, the period is independent of the prompt neutron
> lifetime.
No!  I maintain that every isotope of heavy metals (over 230 MW) is potentially
fissionable if you can get the neutron to move fast enough.  To thermal neutrons
have energies around 500 KeV.  Fast neutrons have energies in excess of 4 MeV.
If you could get the neutrons to move a faster speeds of 5 to 10 MeV, you could
get all of the non fission products in the fuel to fission.  Pu-239 has a 
different thermal neutron fission cross section energy curve, from U-235 and Pu-241
has a different curve from each of these others.
> : I also can never remember whether it was TMI-1 or TMI-2 which melted
> : down and triggered the release of several hundred thousand gallons of
> : emergency cooling water.  This emergency cooling water, which had been
> : in intimate contact with the melted core, was then pumped into the
> : Susquehanna River, demonstrating a real lack of environmental concern.
> : After which the oyster population in the Chesapeake bay took a drastic
> : dive.  They have recently made a partial comeback however.
> 
> This is a good one!  Would you mind providing some references for this
> little piece of fiction?
This is just an observation of mine that these two events happened at roughly the
same time given the latency period for the delayed radiation effect.  The same
thing happened to the salmon in the Columbia river after the appropriate latency
period, post radionuclear contamination from Hanford operations.
Dennis Nelson
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium
From: "Jack A. Bush"
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:34:21 -0800
Bruce C. Fielder wrote:
> 
> 80 grams of plutonium is much to small to make a bomb - one needs at
> least 3000 grams.  So I can't imagine why the US would bother to ship 80
> grams anywhere.  Any cancer deaths would occur years after the war, so I
> can't see why even the US military in the 60's would bother.
> 
> Sounds to me like one of those government = evil = bad = (black
> helicopters, but don't tell anybody) stories.May be wrong here, but I thought criticaly mass (enough for a self-
sustaining fission chain reaction) of Pu 239 was c. 2.2 kg.  Of course,
3 kg could be a little "fudge factor," allowing for imperfect union of
the fissioning mass.
10/Q,
Jack
Return to Top
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment
From: "pipo "
Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:38:33 GMT
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx
URL: http://www.tornado.be/~pipo/index.html
Email: pipo@tornado.be           (24h/24h)
subject: international case study about the relationship between the
hotelworld and the environment.
						Date: 29/12/96
Hello,
I'm currently working at a study about the above mentioned
subject.Therefore I would like to receive some more information about:
> What do you think about the above mentioned subject (pos.> Do you have any ideas around this subject: how can hoteliers preserve the
environment ?
> Have you booked already a room in a "green" hotel and how was the
organisation and atmosphere ?
> How do you see the future ?
> If you are a hotelier:
		>> What do you do in order to preserve the environment ?
		>> What were the economic reactions on the rentability of your hotel ?
		>> How was the reaction of your personnel and the guests ?
		>> How do you see the future ?
The information that you would send is going to be used in case study which
will compare the different countries of the EC with each time an example of
a hotel. After several months of research, I've decided to compare also the
EC with the USA. 
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer. 
Yours Sincerely
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx 
Return to Top
Subject: Rural Energy and Development
From: "ir W.E. Klunne (ITC rural energy specialist)"
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:58:11 -0800
Master of Science degree course with specialisation in
                Rural Energy and Development
MORE INFO VIA: http://www.itc.nl/ha2/forest/energycourse.htm
==============================================================
The International Institute for Aerospace Survey and Earth Sciences
(ITC) in Enschede, the Netherlands offers:
M.Sc. degree courses in Forest Survey and Socio-Economic Information for
Natural Resource Management, with specialisations in 
             RURAL ENERGY AND DEVELOPMENT 
starting September 1997, for a period of 18 months 
The course is designed for mid-career specialists from institutions
associated with rural energy planning and policy-advisory issues at
national, sub-national or district scales. Some participants may also be
from R&D; and training organisations.
Candidates can apply to follow an 18 month programme at ITC leading to
an M.Sc. degree specialising in Rural Energy and Development. This
specialisation is taken as part of a broader M.Sc. course. 
There is a choice of two M.Sc. degree courses which offer the
specialisation in Rural Energy and Development:
- an M.Sc. degree course in Forest Survey;
- an M.Sc. degree course in Socio-Economic Information for Natural
Resource Management. 
The specialisation follows an initial common programme for 7 months,
from September 1997 to March 1998. At the end of the common programme we
offer an option to follow one of two 11 month research programmes in
"woody biomass for rural energy and development" (Forest Survey) or
"socio-economics of rural energy and development", from April 1998 to
March 1999.
Upon completion of the M.Sc. course, all graduates should be able to 
**  analyse the key potentials and constraints in developing energy for
rural development; 
**  assess the information needs of decision makers and planners in
rural energy development; 
**  design, implement and interpret different types of surveys to
collect relevant information; 
**  analyse and manage the information to provide inputs to planning and
decision making in rural energy development; 
**  utilise a number of techniques and models supporting planning and
decision making in rural energy development. 
TARGETGROUP:
Participants in the M.Sc. in Forest Survey (energy specialisation) are: 
**  foresters, agronomists and staff of rural energy agencies, involved
in the management, use and research of forests, woodlands and
agro-forestry systems for energy purposes; 
**  officers from related backgrounds engaged in rural energy
development and with a strong interest in woody biomass; 
**  teachers and trainers in the field of rural energy development. 
Participants in the M.Sc. in Socio-Economic Information for Natural
Resource Management (energy specialisation) are: 
**  likely to have a background in the social and economic sciences,
such as geography, public administration or agricultural/natural
resource management studies; 
**  applicants with a technical/energy engineering background, which
should have considerable experience in surveys or planning in the field
of rural energy. 
FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE 
Energy and Development Specialisation
PLEASE VISIT OUR WEB-PAGE AT URL:
http://www.itc.nl/ha2/forest/energycourse.htm
========================================================
ir W.E. Klunne (rural energy specialist)
ITC / LARUS, PO Box 6, 7500 AA Enschede, the Netherlands
phone:     +31 53 4874 218
fax:       +31 53 4874 399
e-mail:    klunne@itc.nl
homepage:  http://www.itc.nl/~klunne
========================================================
Return to Top
Subject: Renewable Energy News
From: Steve Segrest
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:43:06 -0500
Summary of This Week's Top News Stories On Renewable Energy:
Monday:  One-Third Of Mass. Customers Choose Green Over Price
Tuesday: Congress Committee Assignments (Renewable Energy)
Wednesday:  Wisconsin RFP For Renewable Energy
Thursday:  Proposed Revisions To Clean Air Act
Friday:  CA Energy Commission Finds Tax Inequity For Renewables
To read these stories go to http://www.pic.net/~stevie2 and then click
on DAILY NEWS
Common Purpose For Clean Energy
A Non-Profit Organization
Return to Top
Subject: Re: COORS, CHEMICALS, AND CANCER - Boulder Weekly 1/9/97
From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 19:58:25 GMT
In article  Jym Dyer  writes:
 > 
 > >> One doesn't have to be a "Colorado leftist" to oppose Klan
 > >> rallies and other support of white supremacists.
 > > True. Smearing Coors doesn't due [sic] your leftist cause
 > > [sic] any good, however.
 > 
 > =o= How is it that the mention of these well-documented facts
 > qualifies as a "smear?"  Especially, when they barely scratch
 > the surface (there are lots and lots of racist incidents from
 > the Coors family)?
 >     <_Jym_>
Jym hasn't said what "well-documented facts" he is referring to.  He
still hasn't told us whether he claims that members of the Coors
family took part in Klan rallies.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Return to Top
Subject: Photosynthesis and Florida Everglades
From: claysierra@aol.com (ClaySierra)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 17:38:01 GMT
There are articles in the January 22, 1997 issue of Awake! magazine about
both photosynthesis and the Florida Everglades. If you would like to read
them, please contact Jehovah's Witnesses in your area at the local Kingdom
Hall or by phone to receive a copy. You might also be interested in the
official Watchtower web site at www.watchtower.org.
Clay Shannon,
ClaySierra@aol.com
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium
From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 20:09:46 GMT
Bernard Cohen is a professor of physics and former head of the physics
department at the University of Pittsburgh.  Dennis Nelson refers to
him as a moron.  What are Dennis Nelson's qualifications?  His style
of argumentation is that of a middle school student.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Return to Top
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment
From: "pipo "
Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:38:35 GMT
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx
URL: http://www.tornado.be/~pipo/index.html
Email: pipo@tornado.be           (24h/24h)
subject: international case study about the relationship between the
hotelworld and the environment.
						Date: 29/12/96
Hello,
I'm currently working at a study about the above mentioned
subject.Therefore I would like to receive some more information about:
> What do you think about the above mentioned subject (pos.> Do you have any ideas around this subject: how can hoteliers preserve the
environment ?
> Have you booked already a room in a "green" hotel and how was the
organisation and atmosphere ?
> How do you see the future ?
> If you are a hotelier:
		>> What do you do in order to preserve the environment ?
		>> What were the economic reactions on the rentability of your hotel ?
		>> How was the reaction of your personnel and the guests ?
		>> How do you see the future ?
The information that you would send is going to be used in case study which
will compare the different countries of the EC with each time an example of
a hotel. After several months of research, I've decided to compare also the
EC with the USA. 
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer. 
Yours Sincerely
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx 
Return to Top
Subject: International case study about the relationship between hotels and the environment
From: "pipo "
Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:38:30 GMT
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx
URL: http://www.tornado.be/~pipo/index.html
Email: pipo@tornado.be           (24h/24h)
subject: international case study about the relationship between the
hotelworld and the environment.
						Date: 29/12/96
Hello,
I'm currently working at a study about the above mentioned
subject.Therefore I would like to receive some more information about:
> What do you think about the above mentioned subject (pos.> Do you have any ideas around this subject: how can hoteliers preserve the
environment ?
> Have you booked already a room in a "green" hotel and how was the
organisation and atmosphere ?
> How do you see the future ?
> If you are a hotelier:
		>> What do you do in order to preserve the environment ?
		>> What were the economic reactions on the rentability of your hotel ?
		>> How was the reaction of your personnel and the guests ?
		>> How do you see the future ?
The information that you would send is going to be used in case study which
will compare the different countries of the EC with each time an example of
a hotel. After several months of research, I've decided to compare also the
EC with the USA. 
Thank you very much for taking the time to answer. 
Yours Sincerely
Pipo on Line
for: Hans Smellinckx 
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Employment in Australia?
From: "Marejka H. Shaevitz"
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:13:39 -0800
Hi.
I'm a Stanford senior majoring in Bio, and I'm interested in looking for 
work in Australia too.  I know there is good immnuology research
happening there, and I'd like to try and get involved.  
Does anyone know where the best info is about jobs there (ie, tech
positions, etc)?
Marejka Shaevirz
(marejka@leland.stanford.edu)
On Thu, 9
Jan 1997, Kris wrote:
> 	I was wondering if anyone knows how hard it is to acquire employment in 
> Australia (or New Zealand for that matter) if your from the states?  Do you 
> have to get a work permit, and if you do, is it difficult?
> 	I will be getting my degree in environmental science in may, so will this 
> help my chances of landing a job over there? 
> 	Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Kris Bernardic
> (bernardic.1@osu.edu)
> 
> 
Return to Top
Subject: GARDEN STATE ENVIRONEWS 970118
From: gsenet@nac.net (Phil Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:29:56
970118
GARDEN STATE ENVIRONEWS
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                           TABLE OF CONTENTS
                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            * CALLS NEEDED TO CLOSE DOWN ZOO
            * LAWN HERBICIDES TRACKED INDOORS
            * EPA REGISTERS SIX NEW BIOLOGICAL PESTICIDES
            * ENVIRO-NEWSBRIEF 970117
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
CALLS NEEDED TO CLOSE DOWN ZOO
Date: Jan 17, 1997
From: veganman@mail.idt.net (Stuart Chaifetz)
Hey all,
We need to get as many calls as possible into the NJ Govenors office
to help close down the Scotch Plains Zoo in Union County.
Last night Channel 9 did an excellent story on the zoo, and we have
heard that Gov. Whitman may be getting into the issue. We have been
fighting this zoo for awhile, and there seems to be light at the end
of the tunnel!
The calls should be positive, tell them that you hope Whitman helps
close the zoo, and that there are many people who are against this
terrible place.
There will also be a protest at the zoo this Sunday at 12:00pm. Call
Sherryl at 201-332-0279 for more info.
The Gov.'s office is 1-609-292-6000
Thanks,
Stu
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
LAWN HERBICIDES TRACKED INDOORS
Date: 17 Jan 1997
From: PANNA InfoPubs 
            =====================================
                         P A N U P S
                             ***
                   Pesticide Action Network 
                        North America
                       Updates Service
                 http://www.panna.org/panna/
            =====================================
January 17, 1997
Lawn Herbicides Tracked Indoors
Residues of widely used lawn herbicides may be tracked into 
homes and deposited on indoor carpet surfaces or in household 
dust, according to a recent study in the journal 
Environmental Science and Technology. The study, which 
examined transport of 2,4-D and dicamba, concluded that 3% of 
dislodgeable turf residues (i.e. the portion of a pesticide 
formulation that does not adhere to the turf) were 
transported to carpet dust and that 0.3% of turf residues 
were transported to the carpet surface. The authors reported 
that once on carpet surfaces the residues can come into 
contact with skin.
According to the study, previous research has suggested that 
transport of pesticides into homes presents significant risks 
of human exposure, particularly for children who may ingest 
residues through hand-to-mouth behavior. Once indoors, 
carpets, dust and furnishings may become long-term reservoirs 
for pesticides because common environmental degradation 
factors such as sunlight, wind, rain or soil microbes are 
absent.
In the study, researchers applied a pesticide formulation 
containing 2,4-D, dicamba and mecoprop (X-Gro Broadleaf Weed 
Killer) to sections of a lawn that had not been treated with 
pesticides for at least 10 years. Participants then walked on 
the treated plots, staggering their times and walking in 
different areas so that most of the treated ground was 
covered. They then either wiped their feet on a mat or walked 
directly onto indoor carpeting, both of which had never been 
used before. Researchers analyzed residues tracked onto the 
carpets at four hours, eight hours and one day after 
pesticide application. In addition, they measured levels of 
turf dislodgeable residues on the lawn at these times and 
over the course of several days.
For the first three days after application, the researchers 
estimated a potential track-in rate of 4.5 micrograms of 2,4-
D per day. Use of entryway mats reduced the level of 
pesticide residues on carpet surfaces by 25% and reduced 
carpet dust residues by 33%. The researchers estimated that 
2,4-D residues could remain in household carpet dust for up 
to one year after turf application at concentrations of 
approximately 0.3 micrograms/square meter. The authors stated 
that this level is consistent with levels of 2,4-D that they 
found in household dust of nine suburban homes.
A range of health and environmental impacts have been 
associated with exposure to 2,4-D, including endocrine 
disruption, reproductive effects, cancer and toxicity to 
birds and fish; impacts associated with exposure to dicamba 
include neurological effects, non Hodgkins' lymphoma (cancer) 
and mutagenicity.
The authors described a recent study of 2,4-D in children's 
urine that compared children from a town containing a 2,4-D 
manufacturing plant to children from a town without such a 
plant. The study found 2,4-D in 18% of children from the town 
with the 2,4-D plant and 23% of children from the town 
without the plant, implying that the presence of 2,4-D was 
due to some factor or factors other than the manufacturing 
plant. The authors of the track-in study stated that "Given 
the fact that children's hand-to-mouth activity promotes 
ingestion of contaminated carpet dust, we might assume that 
chronic indoor exposure will follow a lawn application and 
may result in measurable urinary levels."
The authors also pointed out that their control lawn, an area 
to which no herbicide was applied, offered information about 
spray drift levels. The study found that eight hours after 
application turf dislodgeable residues on the untreated plot 
were 2-3% of the levels found on treated turf plots at the 
same time. Detectable levels were also present in the carpet 
dust after track-in from the unsprayed plot. The authors 
surmised that their application gun may produce a finer 
aerosol than some commercial sprayers, which could result in 
more drift. They pointed out that previous agricultural drift 
studies have found drift levels up to 8% of the application 
loading rate.
Sources: Measuring Transport of Lawn-Applied Herbicide Acids 
from Turf to Home: Correlation of Dislodgeable 2,4-D Turf 
Residues with Carpet Dust and Carpet Surface Residues. Marcia 
Nishioka et. al. Environmental Science and Technology, Volume 
30, Number 11, November 1996.
National Coalition Against the Misuse of Pesticides (NCAMP) 
Technical Report, Volume 12, Number 1, January 1997.
2,4-D. Extension Toxicology Network, September 1993.
Dicamba. Caroline Cox. Journal of Pesticide Reform, Volume 
14, Number 1, Spring 1994.
Contact: PANNA 
  ===========================================================
|      Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA)       |
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| Phone:(415) 541-9140           Fax:(415) 541-9253         |
| Email: panna@panna.org         http://www.panna.org/panna/|
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 ===========================================================
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
EPA REGISTERS SIX NEW BIOLOGICAL PESTICIDES
Date: Jan 17, 1997
From: GROUP PRESS 202-260-4355 
EPA REGISTERS SIX NEW BIOLOGICAL PESTICIDES IN FIRST QUARTER OF FY97
EPA has registered six new biological pesticides in the first quarter 
of FY l997, which ended Dec. 31, 1996. The new pesticides are aimed 
at controlling a wide variety of pests including cockroaches, plant 
diseases, borers, nematodes, aphids and other insects. These 
registrations reflect growing trends toward greater reliance on 
biological pesticides than conventional pesticides because they are 
often more specific to the target pests and pose little or no risk to 
other living organisms. They also pose valuable tools for integrated 
pest management practices. The following is a brief description of 
each of the six new products:
Woodstream Corp. of Lititz, Pa. was granted registration for a 
pheromone (trade name German Cockroach Pheromone) to control German 
cockroaches. It is used in boric acid bait stations as a cockroach 
attractant. Boric acid on the body of the cockroach causes 
dehydration and death. It is approved for indoor non-food areas of 
homes, restaurants, health care facilities, educational institutions, 
factories, garages, transportation and recreational vehicles, zoos, 
kennels, utilities and sewers.
Agridyne Technologies of Columbia, Md. was granted registration for 
dihydroazadirachtin (trade name DAZA) a hydrogenated form of the 
naturally occurring azadirachtin obtained from the seeds of the neem 
tree, native to India and Burma. It will be approved for use indoors 
against numerous insects such as ants, aphids, beetle, caterpillars, 
crickets, sawflies, whiteflies, centipedes, nematodes and sowbugs. 
Outdoors it will be approved for use on bedding plants, flowers, 
potted plants, foliage plants, plants grown hydroponically, 
ornamentals, trees, shrubs, turfgrass, fiber crops, forage and fodder 
crops. 
Stine Microbial Products of Adel, Iowa was granted registration for 
Burkholderia cepacia isolate (trade name Blue Circle) as a fungicide 
for controlling damping-off disease on plant roots and seedling roots 
of vegetables, fruits, nuts, vine crops, spices, ornamentals, 
greenhouse crops, turfgrasses, flowers, bulbs and field crops. It may
be applied through the irrigation system, drenching roots of seedlings
or incorporating into seedbeds at planting.
Monsanto Co. of St. Louis, Mo. was granted final registration for 
Bacillus thuringiensis CryIA(b) Delta-Endotoxin and the Genetic 
Material Necessary for Its Production in Corn (trade name YieldGard), 
a plant-pesticide for controlling or suppressing the European corn 
borer, the Southwestern corn borer and the corn earworm. EPA has 
limited annual use to l00,000 acres in Southern states. In addition, 
the acreage may not exceed five percent of the corn planted in any 
county with more than l,000 acres if cotton. These limitations were 
imposed to mitigate the risk of developing resistance to Bt CryIA by 
the corn earworm, a pest of corn, cotton, and other Southern crops.
Ciba-Geigy Corp. of Greensboro, N.C. was granted registration for 
Bacillus thuringiensis kurstaki strain M-200 (trade name Able) for 
controlling lepidoperous (caterpillar) pests in tree fruits, 
terrestrial small fruits and vegetables, tree nuts, alfalfa, corn, 
cotton, soybeans, peanuts, herbs and spices and cranberries. It may 
be applied aerially or by ground equipment.
Ecogen Inc. of Longhorne, Pa. was granted registration for Bacillus 
thuringiensis kurstaki strain EG7826 (trade name Lepinox) for 
controlling lepidopterous (caterpillar) pests of numerous terrestrial 
food crops, ornamental plants, turf, nursery stock, shade trees and 
forests. It may be applied aerially or by ground equipment.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ENVIRO-NEWSBRIEF 970117
     The following is a daily update summarizing news of interest
to EPA staff. It includes information from current news sources:
newspapers, newsletters, and other publications. For more
information, contact the EPA Headquarters Library at (202) 260-
5921, or e-mail LIBRARY-HQ.
**Viewpoints expressed in the following summaries do not
necessarily reflect EPA policy**
** GLOBAL WARMING **
Administration Poised to Release Its Draft Text for Emissions
Protocol. Daily Environment Report, January 17, 1997, pAA-1.
     The Clinton administration will release its proposal for new
global agreement on reducing greenhouse gas emissions on January
17, according to officials from the State Department and EPA.
     The proposal will expand on the US position paper released
in December 1996, but it will not contain specific numbers for
emission reductions or deadlines.
     Robert Wolcott, deputy assistant administrator for EPA's
Office of Policy, Planning and Evaluation said the proposal would
clarify several issues that were contained in the December 1996
document.
     The new document will include details on the
administration's proposed global trading scheme for greenhouse
gas emissions. It will also include a definition of what the term
"binding" means in a treaty among sovereign nations, said
Wolcott.
     Wolcott hopes academics, industry and environmental groups
support the administration's goal of market based controls on
greenhouse gas emissions. "Doing an ostrich number is just not
going to work on this," he said.
** CONGRESS **
Senate Energy Committee Names Members to Four Subcommittees.
Daily Environment Report, January 17, 1997, pA-2.
     Frank Murkowski, (R-AK) chairman of the Senate Energy and
Natural Resources Committee announced the membership of the four
subcommittees under his committee.
     *Energy Research, Development, Production and Regulation-Don
Nickles, Chairman; Pete Domenici, Vice Chairman; Larry Craig, Rod
Grams; Slade Gorton; Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Gordon Smith.
     Democrats: Wendell Ford, ranking member; Jeff Bingaman; Bob
Graham; Ron Wyden; Tim Johnson; Mary Landrieu.
     *Forests and Public Land Management-Larry Craig, Chairman;
Conrad Burns, Vice Chairman; Pete Domenici; Craig Thomas; Jon
Kyl; Gordon Smith.
     Democrats: Byron Dorgan, ranking member; Bob Graham; Ron
Wyden; Tim Johnson; Mary Landrieu.
     *National Parks, Historic Preservation, and Recreation-Craig
Thomas, Chairman; Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Vice Chairman; Rod
Grams; Don Nickles; Conrad Burns.
     Democrats: Jeff Bingaman, ranking member; Daniel Akaka; Bob
Graham; Mary Landrieu.
     *Water and Power-Jon Kyl, Chairman; Gordon Smith, Vice
Chairman; Slade Gorton; Ben Nighthorse Campbell; Larry Craig.
     Democrats: Daniel Akaka, ranking member; Wendell Ford; Byron
Dorgan; Ron Wyden.
** PESTICIDES **
Chlorpyrifos Risk Mitigation Measures Agreed to by EPA,
Registrant DowElanco. Daily Environment Report, January 17, 1997,
ppA-8-9.
     EPA and DowElanco have agreed on a program designed to
reduce the risks associated with the use of the household
insecticide chlorpyrifos.
     John Hagaman, President and Chief Executive Officer of
DowElanco sent Assistant Administrator Lynn Goldman a letter
stating the company supported the 10 point program. The program
requires the company to: conduct additional epidemiological
research, withdraw all products from the indoor total release
fogger market and direct application pet care market, revise
labels to specify re-treatment intervals, and improve the
training of pest control operators.
     Goldman had written a letter to Hagaman on January 14 that
stated EPA is "pleased that DowElanco has voluntarily committed
to develop an agreement to implement the risk mitigation
measures."
     Chlorpyrifos has to go through the same reregistration
process as older pesticide active ingredients. That work has not
been completed. According to Hagaman's letter the company has
spent "over 16 million dollars in research programs directed
toward the chlorpyrifos reregistration process."
     "As you know, reported health concerns about chlorpyrifos
involve illnesses that are common to organophosphates, most
notably, vomiting, diarrhea, and nervous system disorders from
acute exposure and possibility of chronic neurological disease
from long-term exposures," said the Goldman letter.
          Hagaman stated in his letter that the company "must state
unequivocally that our proposed initiatives are not prompted in
any way by a conclusion that any currently labeled uses create
exposures capable of causing human injury, and any attempt to
portray them in this light would only make difficult their timely
and effective implementation."
          He acknowledged that there are reports and "allegations of
illness associated with chlorpyrifos," and said in the letter
"this anecdotal, inquiry-based information is clearly an
insufficient basis upon which to draw conclusions as to cause and
effect when considered in conjunction with all available
toxicological data and risk assessments."
** EPA **
EPA Officials Divided Over Design of Environmental Goals. Inside
E.P.A. Weekly Report, January 17, 1997, pp11-12.
          Senior EPA staff are divided over proposed draft
environmental goals for fiscal year 1997 according to EPA sources
and agency documents.
          EPA Administrator Carol Browner has the final decision over
whether EPA will move towards a cross-media approach, or go with
an approach that retains some aspects of the current single media
system.
          The goals have been developed by the Planning, Budget
Analysis and Accountability (PBAA) group. The PBAA was formed in
response to the 1993 Government Performance and Results Act, and
a report by the National Academy for Public Administration. They
are responsible for improving the link between long-term
environmental planning and resource management.
          The goals selected by Browner will be the fundamental
guidelines driving the new budget and will be similar to the
National Environmental Goals established by the Clinton
administration, said agency officials.
          According to a memo by Acting Chief Financial Officer
Sallyanne Harper, the first option Browner would consider is the
current media structure. That would "allow a smooth evolution to
the new planning, budget and accountability structure for
EPA...allowing agency managers, information systems and budget
and planning structures to gradually change over the next few
years." It will also "result in less confusion to constituent
groups than option two."
          Option two seeks a smaller number of goals by consolidating
some of the National Environmental Goals. This approach was
developed by EPA's Region V office. It adopts a full multi-media
approach and would collapse the national goals into six broad
categories. This would result in clearer guideposts for managing
activity guidelines.
          Sources at EPA are downplaying the significance of the
decision Browner has to make. "The implications are not
staggering," said one source, noting that the goals "are the most
abstract part of the new planning system."
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
  *        G A R D E N   S T A T E   E N V I R O N E T        *
  *  Tel 201-586-4128  MAILBOX@GSENET.ORG  Fax 201-627-8616   *
  *  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  *
  *                 EcoNet Conference: env.nj                 *
  *              WWW Site: http://www.gsenet.org              *
  *            BBS: 201-627-9213, 8N1, ANSI, 14400            *
  *     Listserver: majordomo@igc.org  subscribe gsenet-L     *
  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
=END=
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not?
From: ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 21:05:39 GMT
Adam Oswald (concorde@powerup.com.au) wrote:
: 
: This is exactly right.  Anything nuclear has very strong negative
: reaction in the community mainly due to a lack of education in the
: subject.  
: 
Or for the very opposite reason. I and several other people I
know went to university to become nuclear physicists/theoretical
physicists and beame opposed to the use of nuclear energy through
the process of learning about physics. 
: It is also true that nuclear power has the potential to cause large
: scale incidents where other sources of risk in our lives like car
: accidents tend to fade into the background.  This is another reason
: why it is often seen as a big bad bogyman.  Yet another major
: contributing factor is its association with nuclear war and
: radioactive waste.
: 
Yes the very principle of operatin of a nuclear power plant is
that it is a slow bomb necessarily producing long-lived highly
radioactive substances for which no safe long term "management'
procedures are available.
: Most people cannot understand the methods used to obtain a
: quantitative assessment of the true risk and unfortunatly because
: there is no single method or answer, different intrest groups muddy
: the waters with totally opposed results.
As you say, there is no reliable answer. Since the immediate and
the mediate consequences of nuclear radiation are known to be at
least devastating, even the nuclear industry's optimistic 
guestimate of the lieklihood of a major accident makes it an
unacceptable risk in the eyes of many to whom your dismissal
as lacking education simply does not apply.
: 
: As well as a perceived excessive risk, there is also the matter of
: voluntary risk.  People will happily jump behind the wheel to drive
: somewhere, even when knowing there is a slight chance they may be
: hurt.  If there is the same risk of being harmed because of some
: building next door however, like a power plant, then many people will
: object as they don't see the personal advantage in it and hence will
: not accept the risk and will rightly feel that the risk is being
: applied involuntarily to them.  Thats not well put, but hopefully you
: get the idea.
I think it is quite rational and sensible to object to
being subjected to avoidable risks one seeks to avoid.
[snip]: 
: 
: I can certainly imagine a disaster worse than Chernobyl but I think it
: highly unlikely to even happen at an Australian run facility.  Our
: engineering safety standards are much higher than those in the former
: USSR and we could easily isolate a power plant from the community.
The reason that the death toll at Chernobyl was not catastrophic
is because it *was* isolated from the community! As I have posted
before, I happened to be in Zurich at the time of the Chernobyl
accident. It was only days before that accident that the Swiss
media and nuclear lobby was praising the Soviet safety standards
for civil nuclear reactors and speciifcally Chernobyl for being
the most up-to-date and safest operatig plant in the world.
The tune changed rapidly after an event which had a negligible
probability of occurring had occurred.
d.A.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium
From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 20:12:03 GMT
In article <32E04AB6.A4C@quadrant.net> "Bruce C. Fielder"  writes:
 > 
 > 80 grams of plutonium is much to small to make a bomb - one needs at
 > least 3000 grams.  So I can't imagine why the US would bother to ship 80
 > grams anywhere.  Any cancer deaths would occur years after the war, so I
 > can't see why even the US military in the 60's would bother.
 > 
 > Sounds to me like one of those government = evil = bad = (black
 > helicopters, but don't tell anybody) stories.
I would assume that the reactor given to the Vietnamese was of a
standard model used in educational programs in colleges.  Could it
have been a General Atomics Triga reactor?
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Return to Top
Subject: HELP a student
From: Valérie Langlois
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:01:00 -0800
I'm a student in chemical engineering at Laval University in Québec and I
would like to have some information about refinery stormwater treatment.
We have to treat water with oil&grease; (20mg/l) and suspended
solids(45mg/l). What is the best way to treat this influent to
have 10 mg/l for the O&G; and 30mg/l for the SS at the end of the
treatment. I would really appreciate your help.
Thank you very much,
Valérie Langlois
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Chicken Little nature-haters: wrong again, -- ho hum....
From: bashford@psnw.com (Doug Bashford)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:57:28 GMT
  Yep,  TL ADAMS  wrote on Mon, 30 Dec
   Re: Chicken Little nature-haters: wrong again, -- ho hum.... 
>Joan Marie Shields wrote:
>> 
>> Actually, I think it's MTBE and it is indeed soluable in water.  Not
[...]
>FYI, Ashland Oil makes MTBE.  Kentucky choose RFG (MTBE) for its non
>atainment areas.
>FOr the Cincy area, Ohio went with RVP.  RFG should be more expensive
>than RVP, but
>as often as not the prices are the same on both sides of the river. 
>Louisville,
>though has had higher prices than Northern Kentucky on the same
>gasoline.  Go figure.
I understand that a single gas station in Sacremento (up the road
a bit) depresses prices all over town.  Travelers in the know wait
til Sac to refuel for the lowest prices in California.  Methinks it
must be a chain, not one station.  For me, all this raises some
questions.
Return to Top
Subject: STARTERS'BOOK SPAM MASSIVELY MULTIPOSTED
From: abg21@dial.pipex.com (Nick Hunter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:39:12 +0000
Robert Shaw  wrote:
>  * Crossposted from: 0
>         "DESIGN DATABASES AND DRIVE MICROSOFT ACCESS"

This crossposting statement is deliberately misleading. 
I've just checked dejanews and there are 471 hits for this joker. I
examined the first 100 of the 471 and after 16 iffy responses the other
84 were the same spam. This is one of the most heavily multiposted puffs
I have seen for some time, and the guy has the cheek to present it as a
zero crosspost!
OK there are no multiple NGs in the header, but this is the Nth time I
have seen this tonight - sci.environment, comp.sys.mac.apps, sci.astro
for a start, and the rec. and alt. NGs are heavily posted too. Sensu
stricto crossposts may be zero, but actual multiposts are about 400. 
This is in my view, a rotten SPAM masquerading as Mr Clean.  
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Untrue accusations (was: Vatican immorality)
From: cathliu@mail.utexas.edu (Catherine Y. Liu)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:50:12 -0600
In article <32E09290.56A@stud.warande.ruu.nl>, Elliott Oti
 wrote:
> Jeff Skinner wrote:
>    
  > The belief that Global Ecology is a kind of giant delicate
> > Machine that conscientous people have to intervene to save from damage
> > is strange indeed. Its self-defense and self-healing capabilities are vast.
> 
> It isn't. It isn't a living entity with defensive or regenerative capabilities
> (yes, I don't like the Gaia superorganism idea). Conscientious people
> are actually pretty f*cking neccessary if this laissez-faire attitude
> of "do whatcha like, the earth will take care of itself" is so prevalent
> as it seems to be.
> 
> Elliott
I don't think Mr. Skinner is all that wrong in stating that the earth is
not defenseless.  I'm sure that if we mess it up enough, "mother nature"
will find something to take care of the pests (that's the human pests,
folks).
-- 
Catherine Y. Liu
cathLiu@mail.utexas.edu
Who are you and why?
Return to Top
Subject: On Hardin: an interview and commentary -- Ecology, Economy, and Ethics
From: bashford@psnw.com (Doug Bashford)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:57:30 GMT
These are excerpts from
http://204.71.8.24:80/lrand/FM_Hardn.htm
plus commentary.
 [My excerpts are for review, without permission.] 
=========== Begin quotes:
LIVING WITHIN LIMITS & LIMITS ON LIVING
Garrett Hardin on Ecology, Economy, and Ethics
Copywrite Sceptic, Vol 4., No. 2 1996, pp.42-46.
Interview by Frank Meile
Garrett Hardin is a pioneer in the science of human ecology. He is
best known for his 1968 article in Science, "The Tragedy of the
Commons." Reprinted in over 100 anthologies, it is still cited by
proponents of the free market as a classic analysis of the inherent
failings in terms of economic loss and environmental degradation of
public, as opposed to private, ownership.
========[deletions]
Skeptic: You once wrote a sarcastic piece entitled,
 "Nobody Ever Dies from Overpopulation." Would you care to comment? 
Hardin: It's absolutely true. There should be a formal scientific
investigation by people who are trained in that sort of thing, which I
am not, of the change in attitude toward the subject of
over-population and how it came about. There was a lot of concern
about population in the first part of this century. It culminated, as
I see it, in Paul Ehrlich's book, The Population Bomb, in 1967.
 Then all the attacks started from various economists and the public
just got tired of it as they became aware of the fact that the people
who were talking about over-population were not offering
any remedies. The feeling on the part of the public was What good is
it seeing a problem, if you don't offer a remedy?" The same criticism
has been made of my last book, Living Within Limits.
 Right now we've reached a low point in getting people to take
population problems seriously. But I have been encouraged by the
letters to the editor I see in the local papers.
 The best summary of the problem is the one Ehrlich uses - name any
problem that you regard as important and dangerous and you will find
that unless you solve the population problem, you can't solve that one
either. 
Population is not the sole cause, but it's a contributing cause to all
the other major problems. 
========[deletions]
Skeptic: Reading your books or Paul Ehrlich's, one gets the feeling
we're going to hell in a hurry rather than a hand basket. But doesn't
Julian Simon have a point that since Plato, and certainly since
Malthus, you doomsayers have always said this and you've always been
proved wrong? 
Hardin: Not always proved wrong. Some of the things that were said
have proved right. 
Skeptic: For example? 
Hardin: Here we get into an argument. Many people think that living on
Manhattan all the time is not the ideal way to live. Society paints
itself into a cul-de-sac of urbanization. I grew up on a farm
in Missouri. When I was very young, I remember the creek running all
summer long. By my teens, it ran only at the beginning of the summer
and left a hole for the rest of the summer. By the mid-30s,
even the water-hole was gone. My grandfather told me that when he
first moved there, the water was so clear and you could see to the
bottom. As far as I was concerned, all water, in creeks,
rivers, and lakes, was brown. So it was a shock when I went to England
and Ireland in my 50s and saw small rivers that were so clear you
could see the fish. 
Skeptic: But the argument against your story is that we now have,
along with that somewhat polluted water, more people, more goods, more
services. More people are living better than ever before. So what's
one dirty pond versus 100 more people with good jobs raising their
families? 
Hardin: The important thing, and on which you can't get agreement, is
the question, "Why is having more people good?" Now, if you say more
people produce more goods so that there is a higher standard of
living, then you've got a good argument. But suppose more people is
just more people.
Suppose more people means a lower quality of life? Do we simply want
to maximize the number of people? 
Skeptic: From a Darwinian perspective, more people allows a more
stratified society and more specialization of labor. In the long run,
those more populous, stratified societies will displace the less
populous, more egalitarian ones. It's going to be that way, whether we
like it or not. 
Hardin: You may be right and this is the tragedy. Can we stop our
built-in suicidal tendencies? All species have the blessing of enemies
that keep their numbers under control. But we have been
getting rid of all our enemies. We thought we'd gotten rid of all
disease. We haven't quite, but if we can, by God we will. Having
gotten rid of all the lions and tigers and bears, then we get rid of
the micro-predators, the bacteria, and the viruses, there will be
nothing to control our numbers except ourselves. If not, we will
commit suicide. The Easter Island tragedy will be universalized. There
will be a few people, leading a miserable life. 
If we control our numbers, we might be able to settle on a world
population of up to 100 million, living a hell of a good life. But
we're up to six billion now. That's six thousand million. This level
is impossible to maintain. 
Skeptic: There is a certain self-satisfied negativity to much
ecological writing. Julian Simon has written other books about
starting your own mail order business and how to overcome depression.
I just can't imagine either you or Ehrlich writing anything so upbeat
and optimistic. Isn't that an inherent flaw in the ecological
movement? Aren't you going to lose the argument by induced
depression as your readers reach for the Prozac? 
Hardin: If your only goal is to win, the answer is to become another
Julian Simon. I couldn't live with myself if I did that. I'd die of
shame. While I may be a bearer of bad news, I try to convince
people that what sounds like bad news is better than "good news"
that's wrong. 
======== [deletions and end quotes] ========
   A comment  about a common argument quoting Hardin's
"The Tragedy of the Commons."  Many private property enthusiasts
cite Hardin's 1968 essay as evidence for privatizing National
Parks, and Forests, etc.  Their error in general it to equivocate
the "common good", the "common goods", and the "commons".   For 
example, a National Forest is NOT what Hardin described.  His
"commons" was from an old English tradition where the the land
had utterly no stewardship nor ownership.  Public ownership with
public property rights is NOT the same as no ownership and no
property rights!  In fact, a National Forest is tightly regulated
to prevent a Tragedy of the Commons as its frequent users well know.
Another point.  Many private property enthusiasts cite
environmentalist's
constant complaining about the stewardship of Public Lands as evidence
in favor of privatization.  Environmentalists trapped in the trees
of the debate are often not aware this can be an honest mistake made
by those who would not recognize the difference between a forest and
a tree farm.  In short, the reason environmentalists do not complain
about private tree farms is because they are private, and also, they
are farms.
Perhaps "Skeptic" has noticed Hardin's feelings that in the long
run, ecology will be defeated because it will not reach the mass
market, will never be very "popular":
    Skeptic:  Isn't that an inherent flaw in the
    ecological movement? Aren't you going to lose the argument  
    by induced depression as your readers reach for the Prozac? 
Yep.  And the growthmaniacs count on that.  Hardin's reply?
    Hardin:  ...While I may be a bearer of bad news, ....
So Hardin, like most environmentalists, seems to miss the point.
What happened to his; "living a hell of a good life"?
Environmentalists are bearers of good news in a world that
many people see as falling apart.  The growthmaniacs' underemployment,
downsizing, environmental degradation, and exploding crime is the bad
news we have been seeking to AVOID.  Perhaps we should spend more time
communicating our grand visions of humans in harmony with the Earth?
More important, shouldn't we include the values of the people who are
not environmentalists?  What will a balanced world bring, anyway?
-    We seek increasing individuals' wealth and freedom
-   rather than stimulating the gross economy.  We look to abundance
-   and wholeness instead of so-called; "economic growth".
-       Growthmania consumes what it promises.  Ecology delivers.
--Douglas bashford@psnw.com -- Middle-of-the-road extremist.
Science, Ecology, Economics, and Politics (title)
http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/e-index.html
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Missing Plutonium
From: "Rick Tarara"
Date: 18 Jan 1997 22:14:39 GMT
Cohen's writings and 'stunts' about nuclear matters have always been
'tongue in cheek' and in direct response to the more wild claims and
statistical manipulations of the anti-nuke press.  I once heard a symposium
he gave where he showed conclusively that building thousands of nuclear
power plants would SAVE lives even with a couple 'worse case' accidents. 
The life saver?--mining all that Uranium would severely reduce the Radon
exposure of most people.  What to do with the waste and mining
tailings?--"Throw it in the oceans--its going to end up there eventually
anyway  ;-)" {emoticon added}
RWT
John McCarthy  wrote in article
...
> Bernard Cohen is a professor of physics and former head of the physics
> department at the University of Pittsburgh.  Dennis Nelson refers to
> him as a moron.  What are Dennis Nelson's qualifications?  His style
> of argumentation is that of a middle school student.
> -- 
> John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
> http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
> He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
> 
> 
Return to Top
Subject: TVA may need more power plants.
From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 23:14:56 GMT
According to a U.P. news story, on Friday TVA had all of its power
plants running at full capacity because of the cold spell.  Much
heating in the TVA area is either electric resistance heating or heat
pump.  Many people were cold, either because they had no heating or
because their systems weren't up to dealing with the cold spell.
From the news story:
     TVA officials expect record demand Friday as bone-chilling
     temperatures gripped many eastern and southern states. And
     they say Friday was the first day that all of TVA's 177
     power plants were generating electricity at the same time.
	     TVA Chairman Craven Crowell says the agency
     activated its Watts Bar and Browns Ferry nuclear units to
     help meet ``this record high demand for power.'' The two
     nuclear plants have been plagued by problems in the past.
	     Preliminary calculations show a record power demand
     of more than 26, 500 megawatts Friday morning. Also, for the
     first time ever, all of TVA's 59 fossil, five nuclear and
     113 hydro units were generating power to meet the peak.
	     The average temperature in the seven-state region at
     the time of the peak demand was 10 degrees. The previous
     record peak demand was 25,995 megawatts on Feb. 5, 1996.
	     TVA was created in 1933 to provide electricity to
     poor, Depression- area states in the South. Today, it is the
     nation's largest producer of electricity. TVA provides power
     to large industries and 160 power distributors who serve
     almost 8 million consumers in seven southeastern states.
Their customers were lucky that all 177 plants were in working order
at the same time.  If they want to avoid trouble at unpleasant times,
they need some spare capacity.
Mightn't they lose some capacity if ice clogs the water intakes of
some of the plants?
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
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Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not?
From: redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 23:34:09 GMT
murray@unico.com.au (Murray Brandon) writes:
> I hear Indonesia has seven to twelve nuclear power plants planned.
> Indonesia is one of the world's most earthquake and volcano-prone
> countries.
I dont know anything about Indonesias nuclear program but why should
it be hard to design a nuclear powerplant to be adequately eartquake
proof? (Adequately defined as requiering such a large earthquake to
break in a bad way that the broken nuclear powerplant is one of the
smaller worries afterwards. )
> Britain has demonstrated it cannot manage nuclear reactors safely,
> let alone dispose of the spent fuel properly, so how can other less
> rich countries possibly be expected to do so.
Perhaps buy building more refined and easier to manage technologies?
You can trade some performance for easy to manage passive safety.
The best way of disposing of the spent nuclear fuel from former thirld
world countries ought to be as fuel in accelerator driven or molten
salt reactors in the well industrialized countries. Thus you turn it
from a waste into an asset and when the country in question has
advanced far enough they can start building and using the more
challanging designs that takes care of the waste.
> Not if every household took care of their own power requirements.
> Households can "borrow" from the national grid if they really need
> to, and add surplus power to the grid at other times. The technology
> is there today to do it, and battery systems are cheaper and more
> reliable than they were ten years ago. It would take a huge load off
> power stations, leaving plenty for your aluminium smelters etc, and
> you could close the rest of the power plants down and re-employ the
> people in renewable energy type jobs.
You still need the solar panels and their support structure. You save
money in grid building but looses on having to place the solar panels
where there are houses and not where they give the best efficiency.
The ammount of batteries needed is truly massive, its one thing to
convert a few isolated houses and another to install such
infrastructure in whole regions. To leave plenty of power for industry
and aluminium smelters would require batteris able to store power in
the Gwh range, that is about a million car size batteries per Gwh,
about ten thousand tons of lead. You will need to change out and
recycle all this with a few years turn around time. It adds up to a
very large effort.
> You didn't mention geo-thermal and wind generation. Some of those
> modern windmills are quite beautiful designs and are very productive
> if you have the right location.
Its only possible to use geo-thermal at some locations. The only
trouble with windmills is that you need about two to three thosand of
them to replace a single nuclear powerplant or coal powerplant
depending on the location being good or very good.
It is good and well to design for single houses and small municipials
but you need large ammounts of power for a city or an industrial
region.
It simply is tough to produce large ammounts of power from dillute
sources. :-( (I would not mind it being otherwise. )
Regards,
--
--
Magnus Redin  Lysator Academic Computer Society  redin@lysator.liu.se
Mail: Magnus Redin, Björnkärrsgatan 11 B 20, 584 36 LINKöPING, SWEDEN
Phone: Sweden (0)13 260046 (answering machine)  and  (0)13 214600
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Subject: Re: Nuclear Power in Australia? Why not?
From: redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin)
Date: 18 Jan 1997 23:42:48 GMT
redin@lysator.liu.se (Magnus Redin) writes:
> Perhaps buy building more refined and easier to manage technologies?
> You can trade some performance for easy to manage passive safety.
Silly me, I mean building better designs.
Regards,
--
--
Magnus Redin  Lysator Academic Computer Society  redin@lysator.liu.se
Mail: Magnus Redin, Björnkärrsgatan 11 B 20, 584 36 LINKöPING, SWEDEN
Phone: Sweden (0)13 260046 (answering machine)  and  (0)13 214600
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Subject: Re: 2000 - so what?
From: s302728@student.uq.edu.au (Ruediger Landmann)
Date: 19 Jan 1997 00:54:38 GMT
Nicholas Lee (ming@xtra.co.nz) wrote:
[On the subject of the origins of the current system of numbering the
years]
: Subjectively to us in 1997 CE (AD) it did.  Consider the Roman Empire
: was not 'Christainised' until Emperor Constaintine (sp?)
: 
: So the calander did not start in _AD 1_ but at some later date, 1 AD
: was recongised.  We can not say from this distance if then they got a
: correct date.  
Correct. The current system did not come into use until the 6th Century,
and is based upon the calculations of a monk named Dionysius Exiguus.
Most other systems of dating in the late classical and mediaeval world
simply placed dates in relation to the rule of various kings. ("in the nth
year of xyz's rule...") The Romans themselves dated their years from the
year of the traditional, legendary founding of the city of Rome. (Roman
dates are given the letters AUC, from the Latin words "From the Foundation
of the City")
As for being certain as to whether or not Brother Dionysius got it
right... well, we can prove that he was wrong, but it's impossible to fix
a date precisely.
The Gospel texts state that Jesus' family went to Bethlehem because of a
census that was being taken by the Roman government. Various
archaeological evidence from Turkey and Egypt suggest that this census got
underway in 8 BCE. Also, according to the Gospels, King Herod was still
alive at the time of Jesus' birth. The Jewish-Roman historian Flavius
Josephus gives us a date of 4 BCE for Herod's death. (This can be dated
very precisely because of Josephus' mention of a lunar eclipse at the
time). 
Jesus was therefore born between 8 BCE and 4 BCE.
Most attempts to refine this date centre on Astronomical speculation as to
the exact nature of the "Star of Bethlehem" mentioned in Matthew's Gospel.
Chinese records mention a comet (or "broom star") in 5 BCE and a nova (or
"guest star") in 5 BCE.
Perhaps the most popular current theory, that the "star" was actually a
series of planetary conjunctions, would give a date in 7 BCE.
David Hughes discusses these in his book _The Star of Bethlehem: An
Astronomer's Confirmation_, favouring the conjunction theory.
Other good articles are to be found in the Christmas editions of _New
Scientist_ for 1992 and 1995, and in the _Quarterly Journal of the Royal
Astronomical Society_ in 1995 (don't remember the issue).
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