Newsgroup sci.environment 115331

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is there really a way to avoid animal testing....and what are the leading
products out there require the most testing of animal excpet for
medicine........please tell me these products and if possible the name of
such company as well ..thank you

In article <5c5kc2$205@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, nyikos@math.scarolina.edu says...
>As a mathematician with a wife who worked eight years in biochemistry, 
>I would add that we just know too little about the probability of 
>life having arisen spontaneously on earth to be able to
>estimate the chances that we are alone in the universe.
Quite true.  But how about this: assuming ignorance of other systems and 
galaxies, what would be the statistical probability that given the vast 
number of stars and planets in the universe, any particular phenomenon 
involving the combination of elements arose on one and only one place in the 
universe (and to a massive extent in that one place).  It seems reasonable to 
hypothesize that there would be a very small range of phenomena, if any, 
which would fit into that category.  We lack data to calculate such odds, but 
it is reasonable to believe that life is not an isolated phenomenon.
-scott

In <32E435B3.61B9@xmission.com> Jim  writes: 
>
>Harold Brashears wrote:
>> 
>> Jim  wrote:
>> 
>> >Harold Brashears wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Jim  wrote:
>> >>
>> [edited]
>> >> >>
>> >> >We know beyond a doubt that rainforests harbor many species that
have
>> >> >very restricted ranges, only a few of which we have discovered.
To say
>> >> >that they don't would be like saying that all the stars or
galaxies
>> >> >discovered are the only ones that exist.
>> >>
>> >> That is an interesting analogy, but I do not think that it is
>> >> appropriate here, unless you intend some drastic action as a
result of
>> >> the paucity of stars or galaxies.
>> >>
>> >Of course not. My point is that the existence of many unknown
species is
>> >undeniable, as are the existence of many unknown galaxies.
>> 
>> I know what your point was, I am sorry I was not clear enough in
>> explaining mine.  You want expensive, drastic action taken to
>> alleviate a situation wherein you have postulated the existence of
>> many species, then postulate their extinction.
>> 
>> Until you have a similar recommendation with regard to some
expensive,
>> drastic action in regard to postulated stars, the analogy is not
>> appropriate.
>> 
>It is quite appropriate, because it is quite reasonable to postulate
the
>existence of these species. To not make such a postulation in our
>decision-making would be acting irresponsibly. The analogy need not be
>extended any further. Becuase we have a basic understanding of the
>effects of ecosystem destruction, it is also reasonable to take action
>to prevent these extinctions from happening.
    Just an interesting point about rainforests.  A few years back,
Burger King was touted as a hero by the Sierra Club because of their
trees program.  I wonder if Burger King was maybe just feeling guilty? 
You see, Burger King uses beef from South America.  Rainforests are
destroyed at an amazing rate to clear land for the cattle grazing. 
These are the cattle that Burger King uses for beef.  Do you know how
many acres of rainforest are cleared annually for cattle grazing?  
Imagine the species destroyed so you can "have it your way".  Have you
stopped eating at Burger King?  That might be a first step.
    This is an opinion and requires no response.  

          +---------------------------------------------------+
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         |              A N N O U N C E M E N T              || =
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         |                      A N D                        ||
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         |            A D V A N C E  P R O G R A M           ||
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         |                                                   ||
         |                I S E S S   1 9 9 7                ||
         |            =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D            ||
         |                                                   ||
         |                                                   ||
         |         Second International Symposium on         ||
         |          Environmental Software Systems           ||
         |         ----------------------------------        ||
         |                                                   ||
         |       http://cfc.crle.uoguelph.ca/isess97/        ||
         |                                                   ||
         |               April 28 - May 1, 1997              ||
         |                                                   ||
         |               Delta Whistler Resort,              ||
         |         Whistler, British Columbia, Canada        ||
         |                                                   |+
         +---------------------------------------------------+
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
News from ISESS 1997
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  * C o n f e r e n c e   S t a t u s   S u m m a r y
    * The advance conference program has been set in late December
      1996. Consult the program below to see which papers will be
      presented.
  =
    * Registration is now possible; see registration details below
      or consult our registration page on our conference home page.
    * IMPORTANT: To register, print off the registration page and
      send it to the conference registration office along with your =
      payment. You will receive a notification and a receipt as =
      soon as the payment has been processed.      =
      THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER MAIL COMMUNICATION.
      All communication prior to the conference will be done by an
      EMAIL list on which you will be registered if you give us
      your email on the registration form. We plan to send out a =
      final conference program about 4 weeks before the conference.
      The full conference package will be provided at Whistler.
    * Make your hotel reservation with the Delta Whistler directly.
      Indicate on their WEB page (or call or fax them) that you are
      ISESS 1997 participant, in order to receive the conference =
      hotel rate. You must have registered for the conference =
      before you can make a reservation with the hotel.
    * Travel details from Vancouver to Whistler can be found on =
      our home page too. There is a regular cheap shuttle service
      from Vancouver airport.
  * C o n f e r e n c e   A d v a n c e   P r o g r a m =
    (see below)
  * C o n f e r e n c e   R e g i s t r a t i o n   D e t a i l s
    (see below)
  * C o n f e r e n c e   A i r l i n e
    Air Canada, the official ISESS 1997 conference airline, offers
    special fares for ISESS 1997 delegates. In order to receive the
    special fare, just consult your local travel agent and indicate
    that ISESS 1997 has Air Canada as official airline. Give your
    travel agent the following event reference number:
                          CV 972 131
    Air Canada provides this offer world wide, along with its =
    international partners (like United and Lufthansa).
  * W H I S C E I  -  The Whistler Short Course on
                      Environmental Informatics
    Several universities have combined their teaching efforts in
    a multi-disciplinary, international joint university course.
    This course is run before, in parallel and after the =
    conference. Students will also participate at the conference.
    In principle, this course is open to everyone, also to further
    faculty and to industry and government institutions. The course
    gives an overview on environmental informatics principles,
    problems and applications. If you are interested in this =
    course, please contact us (David Swayne or Ralf Denzer) =
    directly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ISESS 1997 Scope
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  Due to increasing practical needs, the software support of
  environmental protection and research tasks is growing in
  importance and scope. =
  =
  ISESS 1997 is the following of a very successful conference
  which was held at Penn State University, Malvern, PA, USA in
  1995. This conference was the first international conference =
  on Environmental Informatics co-sponsored by the International
  Federation of Information Processing (IFIP) and the German
  Computer Society (GI).
  =
  The purpose of the symposium is to present and discuss =
  the progress and actual trends in this area in terms of =
  methods, tools and state-of-the-art applications.
Topics and methods
------------------
  Topics of ISESS 1997 include all application areas of
  environmental protection and all informatics methods =
  thereof, like
  Applications                    Methods
  ------------                    -------
  Monitoring                      Measurement networks
  Waste management                Remote sensing
  Water resources                 Digital image processing
  Impact assessment               Information systems
  Public information systems      Modeling and simulation
  Global change                   Visualization
  Ecosystem research              GIS
  Chemical databases              Spatial databases
  Process control                 Distributed systems
  Ecological management           Knowledge based methods
  Ecobalances                     System integration
  and many more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A D V A N C E   P R O G R A M =
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Keynote Lecture I
-----------------
  Atmospheric Environmental Information - An Overview with =
  Canadian Example
    Ann Mc Millan, Atmospheric Environment Service, Canada
	=
Ecological and Agricultural Applications I
------------------------------------------
  Integration of a Nonpoint Source Pollution Model with a
  Decision Support System
    Luis F. L=E9on, University of Waterloo, Canada
    D. C. Lam, Environment Canada, Canada
    D. A. Swayne, Univ. of Guelph, Canada
    G. J. Farquhar, E. D. Soulis, University of Waterloo, Canada
  The Wildlife Management System of Schleswig-Holstein -
  A GIS based tool to monitor Game and endangered species
    Peter Fischer, Universitaet des Saarlandes, Germany
  =
  Subpixel mixture Modeling Applied for vegetation Monitoring
    Sonia Bouzidi, INRIA, France
    J. P. Berroir, I. L. Herlin, INRIA, France
Object-Oriented Systems
-----------------------
  =
  Groundwater Modeling Using the Random Walk Method on Top
  of Distributed Object-Oriented-Systems
    Andreas Matheja, Franzius Institut, Uni Hannover, Germany
    H. Krabbe, Freiberg University of Technology, Germany
  Applying the Object-Oriented Paradigm to Integrated
  Water Resource Planning and Management
    Jacek Gibert, CSIRO, Australia
    Shiroma Maheepala, CSIRO, Australia
  Object-Oriented Specification of Models and Experiments
  in Traffic Simulation
    Holger Mueggegge, University of Hamburg, Germany
    L. M. Hilty, B. Page, R. Meyer, University of Hamburg, Germany
Environmental Information Systems I	=
-----------------------------------
  A case study of a data management strategy and an environment
  information system for a large interdisciplinary science
  research program
    Anne Roberts, Institute of Hydrology, Great Britain
  Design and Prototype of an Information System for Regional
  Ecobalances
    Roman Lenz, Fachhochschule Nuertingen, Germany
  Using Active Database Behaviour for Monitoring =
  Environmental Data
    Johannes Gutleber, Austrian Research Center Seibersdorf
    Gerald Schimak, Austrian Research Center Seibersdorf
Decision Support
----------------
  An Environmental Impact Assessment Model for Water =
  Resources Screening
    M. A. Yurdusev, Newcastle University, Great Britain
    D. G. Jamieson, Newcastle University, Great Britain
  Great Lakes Toxic Chemicals Decision Support System
    W. G. Booty, National Water Research Institute, Canada
    D. C. L. Lam, T. Tseng, Environment Canada, Canada
    I. Smith Ontario Ministry of Environment and Energy, Canada
    P. Siconolfi, ES Aquatic Inc., Canada
  Spatially Distributed Parameter Approach for A Watershed-Scale
  Nonpoint Source Pollution Modeling Coupled with GIS-RDBMS
    Jaewan Yoon, Old Dominion University, USA
	=
Modelling and Simulation I
--------------------------
  Distributed Individual-based Environmental Simulation
    Mark Scahill, University of Kent at Canterbury, Great Britain
  Monte-Carlo Simulation of Rain Water Harvesting Systems
    Vikram Vyas, Ajit Foundation, India
  The implementation and visualization of a large spatial
  individual-based model using Fortran 90
    David. R. Morse, University of Kent, Great Britain
    Tim Hopkins, University of Kent, Great Britain
Knowledge Based Systems
-----------------------
  Knowledge Based Systems for Water Demand Management
    M. Luay Froukh, Newcastle University, Great Britain
  Development of an Environmental Flows Decision Support System
    W. J. Young, CSIRO Division of Water Resources, Australia
    D. C. Lam, National Water Research Institute, Canada
    V. Ressel, University of Agricultural Sciences, Austria
    I. W. Wong, National Water Research Institute, Canada
  Conserving Resources Through Better Planning
    Oliver Vornberger, Universitaet Osnabrueck, Germany
    Frank M. Thiesing, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
Keynote Lecture II
------------------
  The Development of Computer Based Watershed Management Systems -
  The RAISON Perspective
    D.C.L. Lam,  Environment Canada, Canada
    Gary S. Bowen, Environment Canada, Canada
    C. I. Mayfield, University of Waterloo, Canada
Modelling and Simulation II
---------------------------
  Large Scale Simulation/Optimization Modeling for Water
  Resource Allocation in East-Central Florida
    Carol Demas, University of Florida, USA
    P. Burger, D. Munch, St. Johns River Water Management, USA
    K. Hatfield, D. Hearn,  Univ. of Florida, USA
Modelling and Simulation II
---------------------------
  Individual-oriented modeling and simulation to analyse
  complex environmental systems
    Rolf Gruetzner, Universitaet Rostock, Germany
	=
  A Guidance System for Choosing Analytical Contaminant
  Transport Models
    Lu-chia Chuang, Univ. of Houston, USA
    Theodore G. Cleveland, University of Houston, USA
Environmental Software Tools
----------------------------
  Environmental Software and Management Questions -
  Is the Cart before the Horse
    Robert M. Argent, University of Melbourne, Australia
    R. B. Grayson, University of Melbourne, Australia
  General Purpose Computer-Aided Engineering Tools for
  Environmental Software Systems
    Chris Hendrickson, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
    J. Garrett, Arpad Horvath, Satish Joshi, Octavio Juarez,
    Francis C. Mc Michael, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
  Knowledge-based decision support for environmental assessment
    Keith M. Reynolds, Corvallis Forestry Sciences Laboratory, USA
    Michael Saunders, Penn State University, USA
    Bruce Miller, Rules of Thumb Inc., USA
    Scott Murray, ESRI, USA
    John Slade, Knowledge Garden Inc., USA
Tutorial I
----------
  Base Technologies for Distributed Environmental Information =
  Systems
    Ralf Kramer, Forschungszentrum fuer Informatik, Germany
Tutorial II
-----------
  A Distributed Systems Approach to Ecological Modelling
    David. R. Morse, University of Kent, Great Britain
    I. C. A. Buckner, V. Jhurree, Great Britain
Modelling and Simulation III
----------------------------
  Integrating Simulation Models into the Environmental Information
  Systems - Model Analysis
    Thomas Clemen, Universitaet Kiel, Germany
	=
  Hierarchical Clustering Algorithms for Atmospheric =
  Back-Trajectories, with Application to Long Range =
  Transport of Air Pollution
    J. D. Mac Neil, University of Guelph, Canada
    L. Barrie, Atmospheric Environment Service, Canada
Geographical Information System Applications
--------------------------------------------
  Information System for Conservation in Veracruz, Mexico
    Lorrain Giddings, Instituto de Ecologia, A.Cs., Mexico
    Carlos Chiappy, Margarita Soto, Lilia Gama, =
    Instituto de Ecologia, Mexico
  An Approach for Hypermap-based Applications
    Maria Nelson, University of Waterloo, Canada
    P.S. Alencar, D. D. Cowan, T.R. Grove, C. I. Mayfield,
    University of Waterloo, Canada
Keynote Lecture III
-------------------
  Environmental Management Information Systems for =
  Production and Recycling
    Lorenz M. Hilty, Universitaet Hamburg, Germany
    Claus Rautenstrauch, University of Konstanz, Germany
Industrial Environmental Information Processing I
-------------------------------------------------
  Integrated Environmental Impact Modeling for Computational
  Building Design Evaluation
    Ardeshir Mahdavi, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
    Robert Ries, Carnegie Mellon University, USA
  The EH & S cooperation developing a new product safety =
  database for improved business process support in =
  environmental and safety affairs
    Andreas Schuh, BASF AG, Germany
Meta Information Systems
------------------------
  Data and Metadata Management in Distributed Environmental
  Information Systems
    Ralf Kramer, Forschungszentrum fuer Informatik, Germany
    A. Koschel, Ralf Nikolai, FZI, Germany
    Gergely Lukacs, Technical University of Budapest, Hungary
    Thomas Heinemeier, Joint Research Center, Italy
  Intelligent Guiding to User Services in Earth Observation
  and Environmental Systems
    Matthias Zingler, European Space Agency ESA/ESRIN, Italy
Poster Session
--------------
  A Case Study of REMTEC: the Site remediation treatment =
  technology database
    D. S. Brendon, Water Technology International Corp., Canada
    R. Booth, C. Wardlaw, Water Technology =
    International Corp., Canada
  Air Quality Information System =
    Hossam Allam, Centre for Environment and Development for
    the Arab Region and Europe, Egypt
  A Software System for Emergency Rescue Services
    Viktor P. Belogurov, Ukrainian Scientific Center for =
    Protection of Water, Ukraine
	=
  A flexible real-time flow forecasting model
    David Wilson, Hydro-Electric Commission, Australia
    Roger Parkyn, Hydro-Electric Commission, Australia
  Simple Grid Mapping Software for Resource Management =
  and Education
    Aquiles Negrete Yankelevic, Instituto de Ecolog=EDa, Mexico
	=
  A Time Series Database for Environmental Data
    Guy Halliburton, National Institute of Water & =
    Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
	=
  A computer aided learning tool for an urban sewer =
  system simulator
    Debebe Aschalew, Free University of Brussels, Belgium
    W. Bauwens, Free University of Brussels, Belgium
    L. Fuchs, ITWH Hannover, Germany
  Using Computer Based Training to Aid in the Application of
  Environmental Assessment Legislation - Canadian International
  Development (CIDA) Case Example
    Peter Croal, Environmental Assessm. and Compliance Unit, Canada
	=
  The World Wide Web as a Two-Way Information Source
    Bruce MacDonald, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Canada
    David A. Swayne, University of Guelph, Canada
    Ralf Denzer, Andreas Hess, Dirk Jessberger, =
    HTW des Saarlandes, Germany
Industrial Environmental Information Processing II
--------------------------------------------------
  Development of a Pollution Prevention Tool for Design of
  Continuous Chemical Processes
    D.W. Pennington, Hong-Kong University of Science and =
    Technology, Hong Kong
    P. L. Yue, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, =
    Hong Kong
  Application of Fuzzy Petri Net Simulation for Environmental
  Integrated Controlling of Product Networks
    G. Siestrup, Universitaet Bremen, Germany
    A. Tuma, H. D. Haasis, University of Bremen, Germany
Environmental Information Systems II
------------------------------------
  Automation of Information Support for Environmental Management
  in the Republic of Bashkortostan
    V. E. Gvozdev, Inst. for Applied Ecology and Natural =
    Resources Use, Russia
    S. V. Pavlov, R. Z. Khamitov, Ufa, Bashkortostan, Russia
  Environmental problems - a transnational solution supporting
  cooperation of all relevant social forces
    Josef Burgard, Siemens Telekooperationszentrum, Germany
    J. Schweitzer, DFKI, R. Denzer,  R. Guettler, HTWdS,
    R. Pfannkuche, SNI, Germany,
    B. Hoffmann, U. Kleffner, Stadtverband Saarbruecken, Germany,
    R. Momper, Ville de Saargemuines, France,
    C. Marchionini, Argopol, France
    H. Humer, G. Schimak, ARCS, Austria
World Wide Web Applications
---------------------------
  Inside an Environmental Data Archive WWW Site
    Sarah Jennings, Univ. of Tennessee; Oak Ridge National Laboratory, US=
A
    Jon W. Grubb, Teresa G. Yow, Anthony W. Smith, Oak Ridge
    National Laboratory, USA
  Management of Distributed and Heterogeneous Sources of
  Information for Environmental Administrations
    Wolf-Fritz Riekert, FAW Ulm	Germany
    Margit Gaul, Gerhard Kluegl, Gerlinde Wiest, FAW Ulm, Germany
    Inge Henning, MfU Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany
  Set-Up and Evaluation of DAIN - Matadatabase of
  Internet Resources for Environmental Chemicals
    Kristina Voigt, GSF-Forschungszentrum, Germany
    J. Benz, Universitaet-Gesamthochschule Kassel, Germany
Ecological and Agricultural Applications II
-------------------------------------------
  Srap model of agrochemicals transport from farmland
  with storm water
    Volodimir Z. Kolpak, Ukrainian Scientific Center for
    Protection of Water, Ukraine
    V. A. Barannik, Ukrainian Scientific Research Center for
    Protection of Waters, Ukraine
  Integration of Constraint Reasoning and Simulation Modelling
  to solve Forest Harvest Scheduling
    Junas Adhikary, Simon Fraser University, Canada
    Gunnar Misund, SINTEF Oslo, Norway
  Soil Prediction on a low Budget ? - Ask the Expert!
    Martin Ameskamp, University Kiel Germany
Keynote Lecture IV
------------------
  Neuro-Fuzzy Methods for Environmental Modeling
    Martin Purvis, University of Otago, New Zealand
Best Papers of ISESS 1997
-------------------------
  Re-engineering the German Integrated System for Measuring and
  Assessing Environmental Radioactivity
    Ernst-Erich Doberkat, ICD - Abt. Softwaretechnik, Germany
    Fritz Schmidt, IKE, Germany
    Chritof Veltmann, Informatik Centrum Dortmund, Germany
  Modelling Ecological Change on Set-Aside arable land using
  a GIS approach
    Ruth D. Swetnam, The Institute of Terrestrial Ecology, =
    Great Britain
    Les G. Firbank, Noranne E. Ellis, Mark O. Hill, The Institute
    of Terrestrial Ecology, Great Britain
  GIS-based risk assessment of water supply intakes in
  the British Uplands
    J.A. Foster, University of Leeds, Great Britain
    A. T. McDonald, S. M. MacGill, University of Leeds, England
    I. Mitchell, Yorkshire Water Service Ltd., England
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ISESS 1997 Organization
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Organizing Societies
--------------------
  * German Computer Society
    TC 4.6 Informatics Technology in Environmental Protection
  * University of Guelph
  * Austrian Research Centre Seibersdorf
  * Hochschule fuer Technik und Wirtschaft des Saarlandes
  * Environmental Informatics Institute
Conference chair
----------------
  Prof. Dr. Ralf Denzer
  German Computer Society
  Germany
Conference co-chairs
--------------------
  Prof. Dr. David A. Swayne
  University of Guelph
  Canada
  Dipl. Ing. Gerald Schimak
  Austrian Research Centre Seibersdorf
  Austria
Program chair
-------------
  Prof. Dr. Bernd Page
  University of Hamburg
  Germany
Special program chair for agriculture, forestry and ecology
-----------------------------------------------------------
 Prof. Dr. Roman Lenz
Fachhochschule Nuertingen
Germany
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Conference location
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 ISESS Whistler 1997: A conference on environmental informatics
 with a venue that you'll not forget.
 Whistler Mountain and its companion Blackcomb form the backdrop
 for arguably the premier ski and outdoors alpine recreation
 location of North America, loacted just 105 kms North of Vancouver
 (rated amongst the 10 most beautiful cities in the world). =
 The route to Whistler uses the breathtaking Sea to Sky highway =
 North from the city.
 The conference venue is the elegant Delta Whistler Resort. Special
 conference rates have been negotiated (CDN$ 109+tax). Arrangement
 for computers and connections to the internet are available right
 at the hotel.
 Transportation from Vancouver airport to Whistler is very
 inexpensive and frequent.
 For information about Whistler, see http://www.whistler.com/. =
-------------------------------------------------------------------
International program committee
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Program committee members
-------------------------
  Dr. Dave Abel
    CSIRO, Division of Information Technology
    Australia
  Mr. James Alpigini
    Lockheed Martin Communication Systems
    USA
  Prof. Dr. N. Avouris
    University of Patras
    Greece
  Dr. Gerd Buziek
    University of Hannover
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. George Burns
    Glasgow Caledonian University
    United Kingdom
  Prof. Dr. D. D. Cowan
    University of Waterloo, =
    Computing Science Department
    Canada
  Prof. Dr. Ralf Denzer
    Saarland State University for =
    Technology and Business
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. E. E. Doberkat
    University of Dortmund
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. Rolf Gruetzner
    University of Rostock, =
    Faculty of Computer Science
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. Giorgio Guariso
    Politecnico di Milano
    Italy
  Prof. Dr. Oliver Geunther
    Humboldt-University
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. Reiner Guettler
    Saarland State University for =
    Technology and Business
    Germany
  Dipl. Ing. Wernfried Haas
    Joanneum Research
    Forschungsgesellschaft mbH
    Austria
  Prof. Dr. Hans Hagen
    University of Kaiserslautern
    Germany
  Dr. Andreas Jaeschke
    Forschungszentrum Karlsruhe
    Germany
  Dipl. Ing. Erwin Knappitsch
    Federal Environmental Agency, Vienna
    Austria
  Prof. Dr. D. C. L. Lam
    National Water Research Institute, Burlington
    Canada
  Dr. Roman Lenz
    GSF Research Center for =
    Environment and Health, Munich
    Germany
  Dr. Anton Mangstl
    Zentralstelle fuer Agrardokumentation =
    und -Information, Bonn
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. Colin Mayfield
    University of Waterloo
    Canada
  Dr. Ann Mc Millan
    Atmospheric Environment Service, Downsview
    Canada
  Prof. Dr. P. Herbert Osanna
    T.U. Vienna
    Austria
  Prof. Dr. Bernd Page
    University of Hamburg
    Germany
  Dr. David Peters
    Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife Service
    Australia
  Dr. Werner Pillmann
    Oesterreichisches Bundesinsitut =
    fuer Gesundheitswesen
    Austria
  Dr. Theresa-Marie Rhyne
    Lockheed Martin, =
    U.S. EPA Scientific Visualization Center
    USA
  Dr. Philip K. Robertson
    CSIRO, Division of Information Technology
    Australia
  Prof. Dr. David Russell
    PennState Great Valley
    USA
  Dipl. Ing. Gerald Schimak
    Austrian Research Centre Seibersdorf
    Austria
  Dr. Hubertus Schmidtke
    Scherrer & Assoc.
    Switzerland
  Dr. Thomas Schuetz
    Federal Enviromental Agency, Berlin
    Germany
  Prof. Dr. D. Swayne
    University of Guelph
    Canada
  Dr. William J. Walley
    Aston University
    United Kingdom
  Dr. Matthias Zingler
    ESA/ESRIN
    Italy
 =
German Computer Society, TC 4.6 liaison
---------------------------------------
  Prof. Dr. Bernd Page
    University of Hamburg
    Germany
IFIP WG 5.11 liaison
--------------------
  Prof. Dr. Giorgio Guariso
    Politecnico di Milano
    Italy
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Further information
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  Further information can be obtained from:
  David A. Swayne
  Department of Computing & Information Science
  University of Guelph
  Guelph, Ontario
  Canada, N1G 2W1
  dswayne@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
  Gerald Schimak =
  Austrian Research Center Seibersdorf
  2444 Seibersdorf
  Austria
  schimak@zdfzs.arcs.ac.at
  Ralf Denzer
  Hochschule fuer Technik und Wirtschaft
  des Saarlandes
  Goebenstr. 40
  66117 Saarbruecken
  Germany
  denzer@htw.uni-sb.de
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Actual information
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  A version of this conference announcement including links to the =
  organizers, information about ISESS 1995 proceedings, links to =
  information about Whistler, links to the hotel, links to =
  transportation and actual NEWS about ISESS 1997, =
  is maintained at:
    http://cfc.crle.uoguelph.ca/isess97/
  For ISESS's publications please have a look at =
    http://www.chaphall.com/chaphall.html
  or email to: =
  needtoknow@chall.co.uk (for information only)
  musthaveuk@itps.co.uk  (UK orders)
  musthave@itps.co.uk    (rest of world orders)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Conference Offices for ISESS 1997
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration Office
-------------------
  (send registrations ONLY to this address)
  Environmental Informatics Institute
  P.O. Box 11 15
  69251 Gaiberg
  Germany
  Fon +49 (6223) 970235
Canada Office and Conference Secretary
--------------------------------------
  (direct all other communication to this address)
  Mrs. Linda Robson
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HTTP://www.webspawner.com/users/OFFSHORE1/
pill has a Belize Offshore Trust-$200 or $1,000-THATS VERY Low cost!
Jack Plant wrote:
> 
> robink@accessweb.com (Robin R. Krasichynski) wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:00:43 -0800 EXECUTIVE FUNDING GROUP Ltd, said ...
> >>
> >>Offshore Trust
> 
> >Welcome to the world of responsible Canadian citizens.  Welcome to those
> >who scream about taxes being too high, so they will take their money out
> >of the system, and put it somewhere where it isn't taxed, but they will continue
> >to use the roads, the sewers, the schools, the court system, and so on - they
> >just don't want to pay for it.
> 
> I bet you they are paying an awful lot more than you are Robin.
> 
> >Corporate welfare pimps - Theft from the Canadian taxpayer - Theft of services
> >by these trust fund holders and their families - if you go and live in Belize fine.
> >But as long as you live in Canada, as long as you drive on the roads, use the
> >toilets, the water supply, the police and fire services, the hospitals, the schools,
> >as long as your mother or father needs a nursing home, collects CPP, or your
> >kids attend university or you attended university - quit being such cheating shysters
> >and pay your bloody taxes,
> 
> They do Robin, and it's destroying the country. Essentially, I am sure
> they (as anyone) do not mind paying for services they use, but they
> justifiably, and righteously, do not like seeing their taxdollars
> wasted by incompetents on things they do not support.
> 
> > just like the people who don't have enough money to buy
> >themselves into being thieves.
> 
> Jack Plant
> Leader
> Freedom Party of Ontario
> London, Ontario, Canada
> jplant@wwdc.com
> http://www.freedomparty.org

mthogerson@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I agree with your premise that the grizzlies have a "right" to live in CA,
> along with mountain lions and other big furry critters, California Condors
> and other conspicuous wildlife.
This is the point we have to start from: Are we humans big (generous) enough
to share the Earth with other creatures. Most people would agree with that.
Then the biology comes in: we need to set aside habitat for them, or they
will go extinct. We don't HAVE to accept the status quo as a necessity.
  The sad fact is that there are a lot of
> people in the state that believe that since they are people, they have
> more of a right to be there (Look it up in your KJV: God gave us the
> right, nay the duty, to "go forth and multiply, and subdue the earth").
> Before you go and give 50 sq. miles of territory to each grizzly or
> mountain lion, you'll have to deal with the people!  I teach a course in
> environmental ethics in a college smack dab in the middle of Michigan's
> Bible belt, to sons and daughters of Michigan Militia members.  It can get
> very interesting.
Ask them to defend (rationally -- the bible doesn't count) humans "owning"
the entire Earth. That would make a nice debate. With us & the chimpanzee 98%
genetically IDENTICAL, it is hard to argue that we should have ALL the rights....
> Another thing -- if you're arguing about who has the longer tenure
> (grizzlies or humans), the question is moot.  Over most of the glaciated
> US and Canada, wildlife and humans moved into the newly opened land
> together.  And don't think the native Americans didn't use the land and
> its occupants to the limit of their technology, either -- they set fires
> to drive animals, used weirs to catch as mant fish as possible going
> upriver to spawn, and were probably a major factor in the demise of North
> American megafauna.
Of course. Which is why grizzly habitat has to be off-limits to humans &
livestock.
---
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years
fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
http://www.imaja.com/change/environment/mvarticles

My brother, who is a huge Bruce Cathie fan, and I were 
discussing nuclear energy when he told me that according to 
Bruce, an atomic bomb can only be detonated at specific 
times and places(not anywhere at any time).  I noticed that 
there was a lot of knowledgeable discussion in this 
newsgroup about nuclear energy so I was hoping someone could 
shed a little light on the subject for me.  I saw a video 
produced by Bruce in which he (supposedly) quotes Einstein 
to back up this theory of his.  I'm pretty ignorant in the 
area of nuclear power/atomic bombs so please don't get too 
technical, if at all possible.
thanks, 

In article <5c61gv$6ov$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
Jedidiah Whitten  wrote:
> Paul Schlyter (pausch@electra.saaf.se) wrote:
>: In article <5boop3$lf1$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>,
>: Jedidiah Whitten  wrote:
>: 
>: >Here's what I think about the 2000/2001 debate:
>: >
>: >1) The 21st century definitely begins on 1/1/2001.
>: >
>: >2) Who cares?
>: 
>: Aren't these two points of view contradicting each other?  
> 
> Not really.  The way the system is defined,
A clarification is needed here:  the contradiction was the claim
that the new milennium "definitely" begins at some specific day,
and then say "who cares?".  Now, if you don't care, why would you
want it "definitely" specified?
> a new day starts at midnight.
> Yet I know people who believe that the day doesn't change until sunrise.
> That is, 1:00 AM tonight these people will believe it is still
> Wednesday, Jan. 22 although, as the day is defined, it is actually
> Thursday Jan. 23.  I'm not the one setting some time as the "correct"
> beginning of the new day; that's how it is defined.  But if these people
> want to believe that Thursday won't begin until sunrise, I couldn't really
> care less.  I might point out that the day changes at 12:00 midnight, but
> if they don't believe it and it is really important to them to cling to
> their belief, Who cares?
Since you're a traditionalist regarding the start of a new century,
who clings to the old BC/AD year notation, why not also be a
traditionalist reegarding the start of a new day?  Starting the new
day at midnight is a fairly recent invention, only a few centuries or
so old.  Traditionally the new day starts at sunset.  In the Jewish
and Moslem calendars, the new day starts at sunset even today,
> : If nobody cares, why bother setting some date as the "correct"
> : beginning of the new century?  
> 
> I wasn't the one who set the date.
But you do care about it....
> It is already defined as 1/1/2001 by our calendar system, the same
> way that the beginning of a new day is defined as 12:00 midnight.
If you accept this recent definition of a new day instead of the
traditional definition that the new day begins at sunset, why not
also accept a more recent definition of new centuries - a definition
that agrees with the customs of today's people?
> I'm just pointing out that this is when the 21st Century really begins.
Yep -- and the new day begins at sunset.  You shouldn't let yourself
be fooled by those rational modern pagans who set the start of a new
DAY in the middle of the NIGHT, instead of the more natural end of
the day, i.e. the sunset.  At 1 AD the new day started at sunset, and
it should of course remain so forever - right?   
> On the other hand, if it is really important to you to believe that
> the year 2000 is part of the 21st Century, I'm not going to stop you
> or even care.  It's not correct, but who cares?  If you also want to
> believe that Thursday doesn't begin until 6:00 AM, I don't care.  If
> you want to believe that the 21st Century actually began in 1983
> I still don't care; you can believe what you want.
I'm not going to have some odd belief of my own that no-one else
shares.  What I personally believe are not relevant -- what's relevant
are what 99% of those who use the Gregorian calendar think.
> : Or why even bother celebrating it?
> 
> Because I want to.  I don't care if you happen to believe that 2000 is
> part of the 21st Century, I'm still going to celebrate the beginning of
> the "2000's" millenium on 12/31/99
...and you should of course celebrate it at sunrise instead of at midnight.
You think it's wrong, but who cares?  
> Do you understand what I'm saying now?  I hope so, because I don't care
> enough to add any more to this thread.
What you say imply that you should also consider the new day to start
at sunset, because that's the way it was at 1 AD ......
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter,  Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40,  S-114 38 Stockholm,  SWEDEN
e-mail:  pausch@saaf.se     psr@net.ausys.se    paul@inorbit.com
WWW:     http://www.raditex.se/~pausch/    http://spitfire.ausys.se/psr/

In <19970122082300.DAA24887@ladder01.news.aol.com> mthogerson@aol.com
writes: 
>
>I agree with your premise that the grizzlies have a "right" to live in
CA,
>along with mountain lions and other big furry critters, California
Condors
>and other conspicuous wildlife.  The sad fact is that there are a lot
of
>people in the state that believe that since they are people, they have
>more of a right to be there (Look it up in your KJV: God gave us the
>right, nay the duty, to "go forth and multiply, and subdue the
earth"). 
>Before you go and give 50 sq. miles of territory to each grizzly or
>mountain lion, you'll have to deal with the people!  I teach a course
in
>environmental ethics in a college smack dab in the middle of
Michigan's
>Bible belt, to sons and daughters of Michigan Militia members.  It can
get
>very interesting.
>
>Another thing -- if you're arguing about who has the longer tenure
>(grizzlies or humans), the question is moot.  Over most of the
glaciated
>US and Canada, wildlife and humans moved into the newly opened land
>together.  And don't think the native Americans didn't use the land
and
>its occupants to the limit of their technology, either -- they set
fires
>to drive animals, used weirs to catch as mant fish as possible going
>upriver to spawn, and were probably a major factor in the demise of
North
>American megafauna.
>
>Mark Thogerson
>mthogerson@aol.com
    Not to forget, that the Indians also killed the grizzlies and used
the meat, hide, bones, and claws.  It's just that when the white man
killed grizzlies, to protect his home and family and livestock, even
though he too used the entire animal, it was now no longer called
hunting, but now it was slaughtering.  And, he was doing it as an evil
and wicked murderer just to "de-exist" the species.

In article <01bc03fe$ceb9f080$2a4bbebe@pc7542.lanchile.cl>,
Theys Radmann  wrote:
	    culo
> <5b0s7b$psp@electra.saaf.se>...
>  
>> There is one good reason to start it at 0 instead: then new centuries and
>> milennia will start when the years roll over from ...99 to ...00, which
>> seems nore natural.
>
> The problem with year 0 is that the numbering of years is ordinal, i.e.,
> you count the years in order
Basically you're saying that the problem with year 0 is that it's not
usual to start counting years from there -- i.e. it's simply a matter
of definition.
> (we are not counting time passed but periods called years in ordered
> form. Have you ever asked yourself why we are talking of the 20th
> century if the years start with 19 instead of 20 ? This is because
> we are using the ordinal counting system).
Well, YOU - and others with english as a native language - are!
Other languages have different habits.  In my own native language
- swedish - we rarely say "the 20th century", instead we say "the
1900's" (in swedish of course :-).  And I don't think even you would
argue that the 1900's ends on 31 Dec 2000....
> In that case there cannot be a zero, or have you ever heard of a
> champion winning the 0th prize ? 1 AD means the first year of our
> current (Gregorian) calendar. The 100th year of the first century
> is the year 100, and of the 20th the year 2000. As I am posting this
> from sci.*, by any logical means, the millenium starts on it's first
> year, which is 2001 (unless you want to shorten one century to 99 years).
Basically your claim boils down to:  we do it this way now (which often
is true), and it cannot be done in any other way (which is false).
> This, unfortunately, does not coincide with people's customs, so tough
> luck.
To me it's not tough at all.  It's tougher for you: what will YOU do
on 31 Dec 1999?  Will you refrain from celebrating the new milennium,
and have a boring evening, because you feel the new milennium doesn't
begin until one year later?  Or will you participate in the
celebrations, and feel like a hypocrite inside?  Tough luck for you...
> If you want it to change, we must change our calendar (there is many ways
> to skin a cat. I propose to add a "leap year" between 1999 and 2000, or
> declare the 20th century to have 99 years, or whatever century). 
> The bottom line is, we do not celebrate what in scientific terms is the
> turn of the century, but who cares ?
The real bottom line is that this is not a scientific matter at all,
since it's not a natural phenomenon which occurs at some specific
moment no matter what people think about it.  It's a matter of human
conventions - and then it matters a lot what people think about it!
en art> Paul Schlyter  escribi
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter,  Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40,  S-114 38 Stockholm,  SWEDEN
e-mail:  pausch@saaf.se     psr@net.ausys.se    paul@inorbit.com
WWW:     http://www.raditex.se/~pausch/    http://spitfire.ausys.se/psr/

Harold Brashears wrote:
> 
> Mark Friesel  wrote:
> 
> >Harold Brashears wrote:
> 
> >> Excellent idea.  I don't blame you at all.  This is the right decision
> >> for you, else you may have to examine your beliefs.
> >>
> >> Regards, Harold
> >
> >Are you going to accept Elliott Oti's wager?  If not, why not?
> 
> What wager?
> 
This one ,dated Friday, Jan. 17, 1997:
(quote)
Let me repeat the wager:
You insist the postulation of the existence of undiscovered species is 
not only
unjustified, but has such a high probability of being wrong, that NO
ATTENTION whatsoever must be paid to their preservation. (and anyone who
thinks otherwise should sell his wife & kids to slavers and go hug trees
or some similar rational advice).
OK then.
Wager that less than 10 new species will be discovered the next 6 
months.
(By your reasoning 0 new species will be discovered, but I'm giving you
some leeway - yes, I'm that magnanimous. Even Brashears deserves a 
chance).
(unquote)
Mark Friesel
It's still open.

some companies that test on animals are:
Bausch and Lomb
Bic Corp.
Clorox
Colgate-Palmolive
Mead 
Gillette
Schick
etc., etc.
animal testing is neither necessary nor beneficial.  animal 
testing provides no real scientific benefits.  the same data 
can be obtained by non-animal testing methods, and most of 
the time these alternative methods are cheaper.  
for more info contact:
The American Anti-Vivesection Society
801 Old York Road, #204
Jenkintown, PA  19046-1685
$5.00 (students, seniors), $15.00 (anyone else)

I read somewhere that the world's water supply is 
disappearing "at an alarming rate".  Is this true or just 
some conservation scare tactic?

William Holmes wrote:
> 
> Mark Friesel wrote:
> >
> > William Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > .....
> >
> > Thanks for the info.  Where does cost fit in, or does it?
> >
> > Mark Friesel
> 
>         Well not building a containment structure costs a lot less
>         than building a contaiment structure.
> 
>         The contaiment building is highly reinforced concrete usually
>         about six feet thick. It is generally 50% or more steel
> re-inforced. This is just the shielding and protection
> structure. Inside this is a 2 inch thick stell vessel that
>         is air tight.  The actual reactor vessel along with heat
>         exchangers and other support equipment are all inside this
>         containment building.
> 
>         Building a sheetmetal wharehouse is obviously a lot cheaper
>         as in the case of the Chernobyl Reactor.
> 
Thanks again!  I wonder if Tchernobyl stock went up thanks to cost 
savings from the design.  Maybe if they'd laid off a few operators and 
other personel...    8^).
Mark Friesel

Robert Krawitz wrote:
>
> Once again: correlation != causation.
> 
> It's possible that CO2 is what raised temperatures, but 
> it's also possible that rising temperatures increase the 
> level of CO2 in the atmosphere, by whatever mechanism 
> (e. g. by forcing it out of solution in the oceans).
And it's also possible that both happen.  An increase in
temperature causes an increase in atmospheric CO2 which
causes an additional increase in temperature.  Not only is
this possible,  it's the best explaination for the data
relating CO2 and temperature over "short" time periods, 
less than a few thousand years.
As for Hugh Easton  
Please adjust your analysis to account for two well known
facts:
1) The relationship between CO2 levels and temperature
   is not linear. Sure,  you can graph it as it was over a
   small enough range,  but a doubling of CO2 should cause
   a constant increase in temperature.
2) The relationship between two variables in a feedback 
   system depends on what part of the system is being 
   "forced" (changed from outside the system).  CO2 levels 
   were not being forced during the Ice Age,  they were 
   responding to other changes in the climate system,  
   unlike today.

tbavin@aol.com (Tbavin) wrote:
>It is well known that the inside of a glazed solar hot water collector can
>reach temperatures of up to 15 degrees colder than the outside air
>temperature on a cold clear night due to "black body radiation" to space. 
>I desperately need a reference for printed information on this phenomenon.
>
>Thanks...I posted this request a month ago and forgot to check for
>replies!
Sorry, I don't have a reference, but the air temperature has little to do 
with heat loss by radiation.  The heat sink in this case is cosmic 
background, a few deg above absolute (yes, I know that eventually an 
equilibrium would be reached and the air temperature is then important).
Jim

R Mentock wrote:
> 
> Macarthur Drake wrote:
> >
> > >He was wrong,
> > >and they were right, but he was lucky that there was a previously
> > >unknown (except to the Vikings) continent between Europe and Asia to
> > >the east.
> > >Evanston Illinois
> >
> >         I am sorry, but you are wrong. The continent of America was
> > enhabited by a variety of people, so of which produced very advanced
> > civilization (Mayans for example) and presumably those people knew about the
> > continent they live on. Sorry to nit pick you, but you did just discount a
> > few million people who lived here BEFORE Columbus.
> 
> He mentioned this in his original post.
> 
> --
> D.
> 
> mentock@mindSpring.com
> http://www.mindspring.com/~mentock/index.htm
Thank you.  It is refreshing to see that someone on the net takes
the trouble to read an entire posting and doesn't take statements out of
context.   Not only did I mention it, but I explored the question in
some detail.
-- 
Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
Evanston Illinois

Leonard Evens   wrote:
> R Mentock wrote:
>> Macarthur Drake wrote:
>>>>He was wrong,
>>>>and they were right, but he was lucky that there was a previously
>>>>unknown (except to the Vikings) continent between Europe and Asia to
>>>>the east.
>>>         I am sorry, but you are wrong. The continent of America was
>>> enhabited by a variety of people, so of which produced very advanced
>>> civilization (Mayans for example) and presumably those people knew about the
>>> continent they live on. Sorry to nit pick you, but you did just discount a
>>> few million people who lived here BEFORE Columbus.
>> He mentioned this in his original post.
> Thank you.  It is refreshing to see that someone on the net takes
> the trouble to read an entire posting and doesn't take statements out
> of context.   Not only did I mention it, but I explored the question in
> some detail.
>
>-- 
> Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
> Department of Mathematics, Northwestern University
> Evanston Illinois
To be as blunt as possible, Leonard Evens is an unsuspecting
victim of NETSCAM also known as explaining reality to someone 
who is not in touch with it.  
Please note it was Leonard who treated the original post as
a inquiry for serious scientific debate.  And true to form,
the original poster dismissed Leonard's substantive comments
without concern for the facts.
So what else is new in Columbus, Ohio??
Dick

Peter Hernes wrote:
> 
> > > Second, there are actually TWO things going on with gas emissions due to
> > > industry, cars, etc.  1) green house gases are causing an increase in
> > > AVERAGE temperature across the globe (lest you still disagree with this,
> > > consider that they just handed out a Nobel prize for work that shows this
> >
> > I think you are confusing two different things.  The Nobel Prize in
> > Chemistry was awarded for work on the relation between CFCs and ozone
> > depletion.
> > This has essentially nothing to do with the question of global warming.
> > (CFCs are in fact greenhouse gases, but that was not particularly
> > relevant
> > to the awarding of the prize.)
> 
> You are correct.  My mistake.  That's what I get for writing off the cuff
> -- I mixed up my climate connundrums.
> 
> However, I have been doing some followup on the greenhouse gas/SO2 issue.
> My "source" for that was a talk given at the University of Washington,
> so I asked the speaker for more information.  Here is an excerpt of the
> reply:
> 
>      "Best recent summary of the internationally accepted view (1000
> climate change scientists worldwide, >98% global consensus) is the 1995
> IPCC Third Assessment (WMO/UNEP) available in the UW bookstore (Houghton
> et
> al, eds, 1996, Cambridge Univ Press).
>         Follow-on articles on sulfate forcing are appearing regularly in
> Nature and in Science, all tracable to the seminal work by our own
> Professor Robert Charlson (At Sci and Chemistry)--for a popular version,
> see his Sci Am article (270:pp 48-57,1994).
> The inclusion of the sulfate regional cooling is widely considered as
> responsible for the IPCC statement (first time!) that the findgerprint of
> human activity is discernible in the observed climate record."
> 
> > > science)  2) sulfur dioxide emissions cause a DECREASE in average
> > > temperature.  To correctly look at the effects of gas emissions on
> > > temperature, you have to plot BOTH types and compare them with average
> > > temps.  What you get is a stunning overlap -- in places like the eastern
> > > U.S., Europe, Russia, and areas of China where local emissions of sulfur
> > > dioxide are high enough to compete with or overwhelm green house gases,
> > > the temperature has gone DOWN.  In the rest of the world where sulfur
> > > dioxide emissions aren't significant, but green house gases have
> > > increased, temperature has gone UP.
> >
> > There may be some elements of truth in your assertion, but I don't think
> > it is anything close to being that simple.  There are some differences
> > between
> > the Northern and Southern hemispheres and they may be related to sulfate
> > aerosols, but I don't think anyone claims such a simple direct relation.
> 
> See above reference.
> 
> > > Third, weather patterns in the U.S. are driven to a large extent by the
> > > position of the Jet stream.  The green house effect essentially mimics an
> > > El Nino effect, in which warmer water in the tropical Pacific forces the
> > > Jet stream over the Pacific farther north.  Models show that the primary
> > > warming effects of green house gases will be in the tropical oceans
> > > because the intensity of the sun is the highest there, hence the
> > > similarity to El Nino.  In any case, pushing the Jet stream farther north
> > > in the Pacific means that more arctic air will get pulled down into the
> > > the U.S., hence, -87 in SoDak.
> >
> > I only wish everything were so straightforward.
> 
> Of course it's not that straightforward, but at least it's closer to
> reality than the notion that the greenhouse effect will cause all temps to
> go up uniformly across the globe, which is what I was trying to counter
> by my original post.  I realize the models have limitations (some of them
> extreme), but it's a place to start, and one of the outputs of the models
> is precisely the assertion that the tropics will warm and the jet stream
> will be forced north.  If we have any understanding at all of what happens
> in an El Nino year, this could be considered common sense.
> 
> > > I agree that "environmentalism" has become extreme in many cases, and that
> > > is unfortunate precisely because it causes people to act in the OTHER
> > > extreme to counter it.  However, don't throw out the baby with the bath
> > > water.  The kernel of truth is still there in the "environmental"
> > > movement -- that is, that we have a finite amount of resources on this
> > > planet and we need to be good stewards of them.
> 
> > I think your heart may be in the right place, but you have quite a lot
> > to learn.
> 
> Don't we all have a lot to learn?  Have you ever met anyone who didn't
> (other than Uncle Al, of course)?
> A curious statement . . .
> 
> > One good place to start is the Reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on
> > Climate Change which presents virtually everything that is known and
> > extensive bibliographies.   Jan Schoerer also regularly posts a short
> > FAQ on the subject in sci.environment which is well worth reading and
> > also contains useful references.
> 
> That's two plugs for the IPCC report -- I'll add it to my "To Do" list.
> Are you familiar with the report that was cited to me above?  Did you
> reach the same conclusion, i.e. that for the first time, humanity's
> fingerprint on global temps is now discernable?
> 
> Peter Hernes
> 
I'm sorry I came down on you so strongly, but your mixing up ozone
depletion and climate change put me off.  
My impression from what I have read is that the relation between
enhanced greenhouse warming and cyclic phenomena like El Nino is still
an open question with some work suggesting there may be such a relation.
If anyone knows anything more definitive, I would very much like to know
about it, since it seems to me to be a fairly crucial point since El
Nino, it seems fairly clear, has a dramatic effect on climate.
What you said above about sulfate aerosols I beliieve is correct, and
Charlson certainly seems to be one of the leading experts on that
subject.  I found his Scientific American article very informative
at the time, but I believe it is already out of date.  Climate Change
1995 contains more up to date information.   
I wish both those worried about climate change and those skeptical about
it would read the IPCC Reports.   One at least learns what the relevant
issues are and which questions need to be answered.  If you insist on
finding information to support your position, you can find it on either
side in these Reports, but I would hope that all of us will try instead
to understand what is known rather than look for support for a
predetermined opinion.
As to your last question, after reading the famous Chapter 8 of Climate
Change 1995, I think the authors do in fact conclude that human
activities have probably affected climate, but they don't try to
quantify the amount of the effect.   However, to be comepletely honest I
have to admit that they word things so carefully and include so many
caveats that it would not be irrational to conclude that the question is
still open.   Personally I am convinced human activities have affected
climate since the beginning of the industrial revolution.  More to the
point I believe that a doubling or worse of the CO_2 concentration (or
its equivalent in other greenhouse gases) will likely lead to
significant climate changes, but the timing and degree is uncertain.
I think it is imprudent to continue with this unplanned experiment in
global engineering, but I expect we will continue anyway.
 _____________________________________________________________________
> Peter J. Hernes                         Tel.  (206) 543-2155
> University of Washington                Fax   (206) 543-0275
> School of Oceanography
> Box 357940
> Seattle, WA   98195                     pjhernes@u.washington.edu
-- 
Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
Evanston Illinois

"Uncle Al" Schwartz wrote:
> 
> James C. Allison wrote:
> >
> > Leonard Evens wrote:
> > "Uncle Al" Schwartz wrote:(with lots of snips)
> > > > "Higher average temperatures" are elicited by the measurements being
> > > > made in what is now cement and asphalt urban (vs. what was transpiring
> > > > leafy rural) environs.  The Green House Effect is a pile of
> > > > Environmentalist progandistic swill fit to feed to spotted owls (which
> > > > happily eat rats in Home Base lumberyards).
> > > > Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz
> >
> > > Would you please supply some evidence for your last statements?  Right
> > > now you are simply proceding by argument by assertion of personal
> > > belief.  Why in the world should anyone pay any attention to your
> > > personal beliefs?   What qualifications do you have?  Have you published
> > > any of your contentions in peer reviewed scientific journals?
> > >
> > > Please refer to the IPCC Reports which discusses the issue of urban
> > > heat island effects.  This issue has been thoroughly explored and it
> > > does not suffice to explain what appears to be observed warming.
> > >
> > > The issue of whether or not we have observed warming due to enhanced
> > > greenhouse radiative forcing is quite complex.   There are in fact
> > > reasonable arguments which critics have raised.  But I don't think you
> > > have the foggiest idea what they are.   If you are going to engage in
> > > polemics on this issue, you should at least arm yourself with sensible
> > > arguments instead of engaging in simple minded arguments not
> > > particularly supported by the data.
> > > Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
> > > Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
> > > Evanston Illinois
> 
> > Uncle Al,
> > Are you going to let Leonard get away with this? %^D
> 
> Never argue with a fool - casual passersby cannot tell the difference.
> However, if it floats your boat, THE EARTH IS IN THE GRIP OF A MASSIVE
> COOLING TREND WHICH WILL IRREVOCABLY RESULT IN ANOTHER ICE AGE:
> 
>    "Newsweek,"  28 April 1975, Peter Gwynne
>    "International Wildlife," July 1975, Nigel Calder
>    "The Cooling," 1976, Lowell Ponte
>    "Global Ecology Readings Towards a Rational Stretegy for Man, 1971,
> Reid Bryson
>    "Science," 09 July 1971, Dr. SI Rasool and Dr. SH Schneider.
>
I asked for references showing that observed warming over some relevant
period is due to increased urbanization which is approximately what Mr.
Schwartz claimed in the posting I was responding to.  Instead, he calls
me names and changes the subject.  Apparently we are now discussing
predictions of global cooling made over 20 years ago.   I have not read
all the above above references, but I did read the Science article by
Rasool and Schneider.  This has been the subject of extensive discussion
in sci.environment, and I posted a long discussion of what is in the
article and what followed in Science over the next decade under
Schneider's name.  Rasool and Schneider did some rough calculations and
concluded that dust might predominate over greenhouse gases, but if my
memory serves me right, they made no striking predictions.   They did
rule out the possibility of a runaway greenhouse effect, and I think
most everyone agrees with that conclusion today.  I felt the paper was
more like a thought experiment, and in any case the state of the art was
primitive enough at that time that all sorts of conjecture was
possible.(However, even in this paper, they remark that Manabe estimates
were different from theirs as to greenhouse warming.)  By the end of
that decade, Schneider had clearly resolved the matter in his mind and
come down on the side of greenhouse warming predominating.  However, it
should be noted that the issue of aerosol cooling has not gone away. 
The latest analyses show that it plays a significant role.  See Climate
Change 1995 for more discussion of this matter and how incorporating
both factors leads models to make predictions more consistent with
observations.
As to cooling, there is a very strong possibility that we will be
entering another glacial period at some time in the near (on a
geological time scale) term.   After all we have been primarily in
a global ice age interspersed with interglacial periods for quite a long
time.   But time scale is all important.   Enhanced greenhouse warming
is something to be concerned about in the short term from a human point
of view, which is a very different matter.   
> The most sophisticated current climate models are incapable of
> forecasting the weather two weeks in advance, much less 50 years into
> the future.  Perhaps this is because nobody knows anything about clouds,
It is numerical _weather_ prediction computer models that in fact can't
predict _weather_ more than about four or five days in advance.  It is
thought that it will never be possible to predict weather in this way
more than about two weeks because of `chaotic' behavior of the
underlying dynamical system.   However, climate is not the same as
weather.  It is the average of weather, and there is no reason why
climate models can't in principle predict climate many decades in
advance.  In fact climate models predict quite a lot about climate,
e.g., seasons.
Even the weather models by the way are getting better at predicting the
general weather patterns weeks or more ahead if we don't insist on
detailed forecasts.  There were articles about this in Science I believe
within the past couple of years, but I'm afraid I don't have the
references handy.  {Perhaps some kind soul will provide them.
> and there are land masses and open sea to complicate smooth sphere
> models - polar caps, jet streams, Third World throwbacks burning their
> forests into ashes and their land into laterite, volcanoes,
> Environmentalist landfills belching methane and carbon dioxide...  All
> together now:  IT NEEDS MORE RESEARCH.
Well at least we agree on something.  And I hope everyone who also
agrees lets his or her Congressional Representives know about it, since
Congress does not seem convinced more research is needed.  All the
factors mentioned above by the way are discussed in the IPCC Reports
(except they don't engage in name calling about particular countries.)
> In the meanwhile, we will all panic to up the ante for grants.
> 
> Even a cursory look at climate data shows that if anything, days have
> not gotten warmer, nights (when it gets colder) have gotten warmer.  A
> leveling of temperature extremes from the bottom up moves the mean
> temperature without increasing any maximum.  THE SKY IS FALLING!
> MINI-ICE AGE!  GREEN HOUSE EFFECT!  If the treeline is moving north, it
> is sopping up extravagant tonnages of CO2 (photosynthesis, you know -
> palstic doesn't grow on trees) and keeping it sequestered for
> centuries. 
The Carbon models discussed in the IPCC Reports---see in particular
Climate Change 1994---already take into account take up of some of the
excess CO_2 by the biosphere.  It is not enough to prevent further
buildup.  It has been occuring for decades, will continue to occur, but
doesn't affect the predictions because it has been accounted for.  Of
course, there may be surprises.  On the one hand the biosphere could
start taking up much more CO_2 than expected, and on the other hand,
the northern tundras could thaw and release a lot of extra CO_2.  To
assume that all certainties will break in the benign direction has no
rational justification.
> Le Chatelier has the last laugh.
>
Le Chatelier's Principle says things in stable equilibrium tend to
return to equilibrium if perturbed.  As such it is a truism. But it
doesn't say if you apply a steady forcing to a system, it will respond
by returning to equilibrium.   For example I am in stable equilibrium
on the second floor of my house, but if I step out the window I won't
continue to float there.   Moreover, the earth has undergone rather
large changes over its lifetime.   I agree that there is a human
tendency to believe that things won't change  very much, at least in our
culture, but this is more wishful thinking than based on experience.
> The Russian economy has utterly collapsed, and continues to contract
> each year.  Italy has a perpetual crisis of governent corruption and
> stagnation.  The whole of Hispanic America is a midden of Byzantine
> Catholic degeneration.  The British royal house has discovered a
> downside to chronic inbreeding.  If all these social, economic,
> political, and agricultural travesties show no sign of serious internal
> upset, I fail to see how another 100 ppm of CO2 in the air will move a
> whole planet which has had 5 billion years to work out dynamic
> equilibrium and homeostasis.  Adding another jigger of Inda Ink to a
> glass half-filled with India ink leaves it just as black.
> 
I won't comment on the various insults to other cultures and the
Catholics.
According to IPCC estimates, if current policies are continued,
concentrations should rise to about 700 ppm by 2100 (compared to about
360 ppm now), which would be unprecedented for the entire time our
species has been on Earth.  And of course it would not stop there.  At
some point, we will have to limit emissions.   It is just a question of
when.   However, it is certain that as claimed above, the biosphere will
adjust somehow to such changes.  The question is how well our societies
will adjust.  Personally, I don't think this will mean the end of
humanity, but it may mean considerable dislocation and suffering.
If we can avoid some of this by prudent actions now, it is rational to
try to do so.  As to the rest of the planet, there is a lot of evidence
of large losses of biodiversity, and climate change will excacerbate
this.   After enough millions of years, the biosphere will certainly
recover, but I'm afraid I can't take quite that long term a view.
-- 
Leonard Evens       len@math.nwu.edu      491-5537
Department of Mathematics, Norwthwestern University
Evanston Illinois

Retanoj!
     Shajnas, ke la plej racia solvo estas, ke oni sendu reen al Usono 
la nuklerubajhon.  Char Usono vendas al ni la nuklematerialon
(materio = matter, materialo = material?), do Usono devas repreni
la nuklerubajhon.
     Lau jhurnalo, Sudkoreio forte oponias la sendadon al Nordkoreio.
Shajnas, ke Sudkoreio povas influi nian eniron al la Monda Komerca
Asocio.
					Qiyao
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*Zhong* Qiyao (s-ro) (~{VSFtR"~}) 
Zhibang (Yanfa), Yanxin 3 Lu 1 Hao, Xinzhu, Tajvano, TW-300-77
Gregoria 1997-01-23, Nordekvinoksa 1996-11-05, jhau, 13:00 (UTC+0800)
----------------------------------------------------------------------

         ECO FRIENDLY HOMES, THE EKOSEA (1 of 2 parts)
                      by Claire Gilbert*
             From November 1996 BLAZING TATTLES**
     Lee Porter Butler, a practicing architect with thirty three
years of experience designing and building sustainable homes,
believes that "sustainable development" necessitates building
designs that do not use resources on an ongoing basis and do not
produce pollution in order to operate.  He also says, and I agree,
that these designs should be the ones we all seek to develop.  Once
they are manufactured by mass techniques we use now use to create
automobiles, airplanes and ships -- these homes will be affordable,
flexible and permanent.
     Ekose'a is an ancient Greek word that defines the "essence of
being:"  Family, food and shelter.  The Ekosea homes described in
a truly beautiful book by Butler reflect this philosophy.  The
Ekosea homes integrate solar, gravitational, and geothermal energy
into a unique design that brings the interior of the home into
thermal and environmental equilibrium.  It very eco friendly.
     Butler has built Ekosea homes all over the world.  He
correctly believes that a major source of pollution -- as well as
stress, labor, and the burning of fossil resources -- comes from
trying to stay warm in cold climates.  This is extremely relevant:
he has a simple concept for eliminating heating energy re-
quirements, especially in areas where there is nothing left to
burn.
     "Sustainability" is avoiding pollution and not using up
resources.  It needs to be done right where we live.  If, in
addition, home designs allowed for the production of food for
dwellers, the designs could raise the standard of living for the
inhabitants and indirectly for everyone.
BACKGROUND
     Butler had already built hundreds of homes and buildings as a
general contractor/builder when in 1972, he built his first passive
solar experimental home deep in the woods in rural Tennessee.  As
an architecture student of Henry Sanoff at North Carolina State, he
had been exposed to Buckminister Fuller's "World Game."  This moved
young Butler to look for solutions to the problem of dwindling
natural resources.
     He was a maverick, idealist, problem solver, and scientific
experimenter.  He built his own elegant, new home in Medon, with 26
rooms, fourteen levels, a 40 foot high greenhouse, and an indoor
swimming pool.  Shortly after moving into the home, an ice storm
knocked out all the power for miles around.  The following morning
Butler opened the french doors at the upper most level of the
greenhouse and was blasted with very hot air.  As there was no heat
coming in from any external source, Butler knew that he had just
observed something profound:  If he were able to figure out how to
harness and control this heat (which was not the result of moving
parts or machinery), he would hold a key to some very powerful
knowledge.
     Butler worked on this for two years.  One day, while
exasperated with a client, he went out into the woods and laid his
head down at the base of a pine tree.  With his hands folded behind
his head, he looked up at the pine and asked the question of the
tree, "Why is it so easy for you?  You just stand there and you are
provided with all your needs.  Why does man have to struggle so?" 
In a flash of insight, the answer came to him, along with a
diagram.  Butler ran back to his home and drew out "The Gravity
Geo-thermal Envelope" for heating and cooling.  By understanding
the relationship of the tree to the earth, its orientation to the
sun and insulation against external forces, he had figured out the
answer to the riddle:  Why had the greenhouse of his home reached
such high temperatures without sun for two weeks?  Butler drew a
picture of a loop of air surrounding the structure and thermally
connected to the earth below, enveloping the living environment in
a blanket of earth-tempered air. It was a very exciting moment
indeed.  The payoff for being a keen observer of nature was the
concept of the "envelope."
     Equipped with his knowledge, in the late 70's, Butler became
a teacher at the University of California at Berkeley, and started
his company, Ekosea Homes, in San Francisco.  His company built
homes using the principle of the gravity geo-thermal envelopeTM and
published Ekosea Homes.  This wonderful book describes twenty three
plans for homes across America in different climate zones. 
Consumers may order plans for these through his company (see
below).
     A media blitz highlighted the work of Butler and the work of
many others who were experimenting with alternative energy answers.
The attention propelled him to a brief moment of world fame, as his
beautiful homes were highlighted in every major shelter magazine,
including the cover of Popular Science, House Beautiful, Better
Homes and Gardens, and others.
     Butler and many other solar pioneers were riding high on the
public attention, but then in the early eighties the bottom fell
out.  The media stopped highlighting the work of alternative energy
pioneers.  At the same time, interest rates for new home building
jumped to 20%.  President Reagan eliminated tax credits for energy
efficient structures.  There was no longer a "gas crisis."  The
climate of America changed dramatically in the 80's.  Butler --
like other people who were working on these problems -- was dropped
from the media-generated mass consciousness.
     No doubt corporate interests in "preserving the American Way
of Life" were learning how to defeat threats to their profits in
the petroleum and other industries.  (Cont'd)
-------------------------------------------------------------
     *Based on material provided by Jill Karlin Butler and Lee
Porter Butler.)
     **The mag that people collect and pass to their friends. 
Also in this issue:  "Part 2, The margarine hoax," "Opposition
grows to genetically engineered soybeans," "Group violates Iraq
sanctions," "How much does it cost to get one vote?," "Waterbeds
for Cows," "Genetics panel reduced, Bleh," jokes, factoid, and
more.  For sample, send self-addressed, stamped envelope to:
BLAZING TATTLES, P.O. BOX 1073, HALF MOON BAY, CA 94019, USA.  For
people outside the U.S., your post office can supply you with a
postal air mail coupon.~

           ECO FRIENDLY HOMES, THE EKOSEA (2 of 2 parts)
                      by Claire Gilbert*
             From November 1996 BLAZING TATTLES**
(Cont'd)
THE GOOD NEWS IS:  PORTER IS BACK.
     The hiatus was a productive time for him, too.  He changed. 
He was no longer an arrogant, know-it-all who flashed pictures of
naked girls on the beach as well as pictures of the beautiful homes
at Passive Solar conferences across America.  During the hiatus, he
developed humility and gentlemanliness (and grey hair).  He never
gave up on the problem and he never sold out.  He survived doing
conventional architectural work to pay the bills, but he was able
to spend most of his time doing exactly what he said he'd be doing
as described in magazine articles written about him twenty years
earlier:  He continued to work on the solution to how every one
could live gently on the Earth in comfort, in beauty, and in struc-
tures that do not diminish or harm the earth's resources -- the
soil, air, and water.
     Butler grew up walking behind a mule, farming cotton on his
family's farm in Tennessee.  He is by nature a steward of the
Earth, and has never forgotten his responsibility thereto.  As a
leader and an architect, he has never veered from his
responsibility to his fellows.
EKOTECTURE
     Ekotecture extends beyond the ekosea home, creating a
decentralized application which can provide food and utilities any-
where, even in desert regions.  Ekotecture is defined as "sus-
tainable construction structure" (patent pending 1995).  Butler's
firm is beginning to sign limited partners.  There are two limited
partners near Blazing Tattles, according to Butler, in Walnut Creek
and Santa Cruz, California.
     ~Ekotecture International plans to manufacture, install and
maintain, sustainable buildings and communities world wide, new
global utility.
     ~It plans to build 20 to 30 prototype homes initially.  The
models will be located in different countries, climates and sites.
The company has allocated for a substantial advertising and public
relations campaign, leading up to and centered on the day of
unveiling the models.  They believes this approach will guarantee
that the media will cover what they are doing, and they will get
their message across to the general public.
     ~The corporation will enter a limited partnership agreement in
each location to be responsible for the land purchase, financing,
on site construction management, and management of the completed
prototype for public viewing.  The corporation will represent
Ekotecture by marketing Ekotecture designs and specific models or
projects.
     ~Each limited partner is expected to be responsible to contact
and investigate planned sustainable community developments and
cohousing projects in their region with the goal of enrolling them
in the use of Ekotecture plans and manufactured systems for their
construction.
     ~When the models are unveiled worldwide, people will be
allowed to take a guided tour of the home and watch a six minute
film on "how it works," containing animated virtual reality tours
of beautiful garden condo units that will be available, within 24
months, in that specific location.  There will also be contracts
for the purchase of individual homes (yet to be built) beginning
with charges for customized design, leading through the
construction management process and into the maintaining and
evaluating the design process, in perpetuity.  In other words, peo-
ple pay them one check every month and it covers their housing,
utilities, and maintenance (painting excepted).  Their payment will
maintain the perfect function of their system and the true desir-
ability and livability of Ekotecture products.
     Butler's newest design Ekotecture disconnects the built
environment from the utility grid.  It provides lights, gas, and
water, and even produces fertilizer and food where required.  The
structures take nothing in terms of natural resources from the
earth in order to maintain creature comfort, no matter where they
are located, nor do they place anything in the earth's air or
water.  They are environmentally sound.
     These structures are designed to meet the true requirements of
sustainability, which means that they are designed to protect human
lives in the event of fire, flood, earthquake, hurricane, and other
natural disasters.  They are also elegant.  His company, Ekotec-
ture, plans to produce twenty three such structures in the next two
years, world-wide, as prototype models.  Butler is looking for
venture partners to launch the next phase.~
     His first book EKOSEA Homes can be ordered from him for
$25.00.  If you are interested in entering an agreement with Butler
and Ekotecture International to perform these responsibilities in
your region or seek further information, please contact Lee Porter
Butler, email  or see their www site,
.  If you can not access the web, send for
a free color brochure to Lee Porter Butler, 620 Biscayne Drive,
West Palm Beach, Florida, 33401.
-------------------------------
     *Based on material provided by Jill Karlin Butler and Lee
Porter Butler.)
     **The mag that people collect and pass to their friends. 
Also in the issue:  "Part 2, The margarine hoax," "Opposition grows
to genetically engineered soybeans," "Group violates Iraq
sanctions," "How much does it cost to get one vote?," "Waterbeds
for Cows," "Genetics panel reduced, Bleh," jokes, factoid, and
more.  For sample, send self-addressed, stamped envelope to:
BLAZING TATTLES, P.O. BOX 1073, HALF MOON BAY, CA 94019, USA.  For
people outside the U.S., your post office can supply you with a
postal air mail coupon.~