Newsgroup sci.geo.geology 33194

Directory

Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution -- From: moorej@cfw.com (JeffMo)
Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or -- From: dyoung@netcom.com (David Young)
Subject: Q: How to generate ALL 3D lattices with 4 neighbors? (Crystals?) -- From: "Joel C. Dobrzelewski"
Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or -- From: Stephen Victor
Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF -- From: virdy@pogo.den.mmc.com (Mahipal Singh Virdy)
Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution Survey Now Complete -- From: moleary@dmu.ac.uk (Mark O'Leary)
Subject: Re: Mankind's next step -- From: Rudy Vonk
Subject: Re: Utter Futility of Arguing With Creationists -- From: danlee@gate.net
Subject: IMPACT OROGENY ON EARTH -- From: pelorus@ltec.net
Subject: Re: Mankind's next step -- From: Rudy Vonk
Subject: Quiet, Please -- From: Teri Miller
Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF -- From: tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
Subject: Re: Quiet, Please -- From: hough@aladdin.gps.caltech.edu (Susan Hough)
Subject: Major MLM scam? -- From: dnorton@ici.net
Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF -- From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: discussion of new groups - follow up to Mary Corman cross post repost -- From: karish@gondwana.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Subject: good engineering -- From: rsb@bromine.mcc.com (Richard S. Brice)
Subject: Today on Galileo - September 6, 1996 -- From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution -- From: puddin@ask.again.com
Subject: ROCK COLLECTING -- From: rrudolph@ix.netcom.com(Robert C Rudolph)
Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or -- From: DarrenG@cris.com (Darren Garrison)
Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF -- From: Kennedy
Subject: Re: Utter Futility of Arguing With Creationists -- From: krolczyk@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk)
Subject: Re: good engineering -- From: e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (Ed Pearlstein)
Subject: Re: DF Re: The Ultimate Unity of Science and Religion. -- From: Jim Akerlund

Articles

Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution
From: moorej@cfw.com (JeffMo)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:09:58 GMT
tomitire@vegas.infi.net wrote:
>   >If the world were different it would be different. But we can
>   >build simple compute system that evolve complex code.
>   >Matt Silberstein
>Ah, but you still have to build the system, and no matter how 
>simple you wish to make it, you must still microcode it.  All 
>would like that to be different.  There were hopes and dreams for
>that over 50 years ago.  Ah, artificial intelligence!  It still 
>needs an impetus in the form of some bootstrap code.  
>Just like life, you can't get away from that.
The bootstrap code for life is the existence of water, certain
atmospheric gases, and electrical discharge.
The bootstrap code for these is the existence of supernovae and the
creation of the solar system.
The bootstrap code for these is the Big Bang.
The bootstrap code for that is still being worked on.
Don't bore us with your arguments about "well, maybe science can do
THAT, but it can't do THIS..."
And don't forget that those type of arguments are missing one word --
"YET!"
JeffMo
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Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or
From: dyoung@netcom.com (David Young)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:14:27 GMT
James McGarity (mcgarity@nomad.net) wrote:
: I am new to this group and I pray that you are not true degree wielding 
: professionals. Look at your group and look at the things you are posting. I 
: suppose I am waisting my breath on this but one can hope.
: James McGarity
: BS computer science / chemistry
Not only are they degree wielding professionals, but in a response received
from the Director of Computing Services at Dartmouth, I was told that our
friend Mr. Plutonium is a staff member there. 
  With people like this shaping the minds of college students, I
sincerely fear for the future of our world. 
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Subject: Q: How to generate ALL 3D lattices with 4 neighbors? (Crystals?)
From: "Joel C. Dobrzelewski"
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:47:25 -0400
Hello.. I'm hoping someone familiar with crystallography might read 
this.  I appologize if there is a more appropriate place for my
question.
Is it possible to generate ALL possible 3D lattices, consisting
of nodes that have exactly 4 neighbors?
One example of this type of lattice is that of Carbon in diamond form. 
In diamond, each Carbon atom is equidistant from its 4 neighboring
carbon atoms.  Other examples can be found (I have a couple if you would
like to see them), and I am looking for some way to automatically
crank-out ALL of them.
If this is even possible, how might one go about doing it?  I have
considered a couple of 'brute force' techniques, but these quickly
become overwhelmed by the shear number of possibilities.  This problem
seems like it might be related to crystals, or perhaps quasi-crystals. 
Any solutions or clues would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your time...
Joel
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Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or
From: Stephen Victor
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:55:57 -0500
David Young wrote:
> 
> Not only are they degree wielding professionals, but in a response received
> from the Director of Computing Services at Dartmouth, I was told that our
> friend Mr. Plutonium is a staff member there.
> 
>   With people like this shaping the minds of college students, I
> sincerely fear for the future of our world.
Rest assured that Mr. Plutonium isn't shaping anyone's mind. I really
don't mean this to sound like a snub of a blue collar profession, and I
hope no one takes offense, but in actual fact the esteemed physicist and
savior of the world is a dishwasher at the Dartmouth Inn. He isn't much
of a threat to anything, much less the future of the world.
-- 
Stephen P. Victor                                       svictor@lgc.com
Landmark Graphics Corporation                    svictor@compassnet.com
15150 Memorial Drive                 http://www.compassnet.com/~svictor
Houston, TX 77079 USA                   De gustibus non disputandum est
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Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF
From: virdy@pogo.den.mmc.com (Mahipal Singh Virdy)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 15:13:42 GMT
In article ,   wrote:
>
>That's true for areas of interest where you appear as a representative 
>ofa nation.  But, consider that you're doing something as a private 
>citizen, not representing anybody and happen to do something 
>important.  All of a sudden various nations, ethnic groups etc. claim 
>you as "our own".  Don't you think that you may resentit a bit, under 
>some circumstances.
It's all about recognition, always has been. Personally, we all want to
be role models for future generations. It has zero to do with the
individual's nationality. Consider that for the most part, "nations" are
temporal structures that historically have come and gone. 
It's very childish to be "patriotic", IMO. Sure, one should love one's
people but the idea of putting country and nationalism above Humanity is
just dumb, dumber, and dumbest. (No, I've not seen any Movie by said
name.) But the bigger question is how Nations move to claim somebody as
their "own" after the fact of said somebody actually acheiving anything.
It's that sort of retro-re-claimation that results in resentment.
In my experience, such nationalistic attributes --- or the ascribing of
--- are childish exercises. Regardless, border patrols around country
boundaries to keep the right people in and the wrong people out is a very
dangerous proposition. In fact, most wars are over "property". I suppose
the new era brings promise of Language Wars (i.e., Canada, USA, ...).
Here's what I find amazing as an Indian who migrated to USA at the age
of seven. Grew up American by all accounts. Now, with my clearer more
mature perspective, I'm astonished at how closed USA really is. It's an
island of sorts. Modern technology and ISH and space-technology and all
that, yet the society is observably closed in regards to what happens in
the world outside USA's borders. And it amazes me to consider how such a
closed system is maintained. "We have the technology ..." cliche.
One could write volumes on this topic. Fortunately, I tire of writing
easily when it comes to writing of unpopular subjects. Still, USA is a
unique experiment in man's history. Allegedly a potpurri of mixed races
coexisting in material abundance. Yet consider how Americans really
live. They're schedules are fixed. They hardly know their neighbours.
They spend hours before the TV --- source of all inspiration.
Communication between people in face-to-face situations rarely happens.
The electronic credit card and checks get approved by some invisible
magic --- the shop owners have no reason to even try remember your face.
You as a customer can ignore everybody likewise.
I'm reminded of a story of an elderly man who saw a child trying to
climb out the grocery store cart in which it was sitting. The parent was
apparently not nearby. So the man started talking to the child to
protect it from falling --- whatever. Suddenly the mother came screaming
at the man telling him to get away from her child. Talk about your
embarrassing social interactions! The reality is --- people avoid
interacting with people in a masterful way. It's nearly an art. In the
real USA-world, everybody is guilty until proven innocent. Any stranger
talking to you is either a criminal or has something to sell you. Well,
that's the same thing. A little redundancy never hurt any writer.
My Orwellian Nightmare is this: American Corporations have a vested
interest in isolating people from one another --- to a maximum extent as
possible. In this way, the only alternative pasttime people will engage
in is watching TV or reading magazines or Internet. Mostly watching TV,
to be sure. By the TV these corpoations sell their products via ever
present advertising. So it is in their stock-holders' interests to get
as many people before the TV as possible. Hence --- you live your life
as you do. Is this a self-inflicted nightmare? No.
Perhaps all the world is like this. Perhaps it has been always like
this. Obviously, it can't be a good thing. The only people that people
seem to listen to --- even interact with --- are faces they see on TV. And
if you don't look like people on TV, you're life is quite isolated. Now
to close... in the USA TV people are at best of only two colors and
primarily one religion. TV people only have one language. They only
recognize two ends of the world --- New York and Los Angeles. In this
allegedly open USA, one is hard pressed to find foriegn TV shows.
Certainly it isn't easy. Then in the USA news you will always hear how
some foriegn country is refusing airing American TV shows. Case in point
is with Vietnam's recent incident. All this while I sit and wonder, when
was the last time USA aired anything Vietnameese? I have to wonder.
Because I have to rationalize under whose information controling and
brain-washing propaganda I was --- unbeknownst to me --- raised in.
Breaking from one's social prison is no easy task. Especially when
society doesn't see itself as a prison --- despite its actions. I speak
only of USA for I grew-up here. I wonder if other nations are just as
closed to other outside nations. If so, is the modern technology
increasing the level of self-imposed and governmental-supported
isolationism or is the technology tearing down these artificial and
invisible walls?
Btw, I'm a fun-loving joke-cracking have-many-friends OPTIMIST. But I
don't let that get in the way of me being a Realist. Presently, I
neither fear or worship BigBrotherTech. But I'd be a fool if I didn't
acknowledge that BBTech is flourishing.
What the hell was this thread about, Nationalism? Mars? WHAT! ;-)
Mahipal |meforce>
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Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution Survey Now Complete
From: moleary@dmu.ac.uk (Mark O'Leary)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 16:22:06 GMT
In article ,
david ford   wrote:
> Pick a biochemical
>pathway.  Ask yourself if the pathway could appear as the result of
>errors appearing in DNA, and construct a scenario that would allow for
>its construction.  Then, come back, and describe to us at the gene level
>how you think it is possible for errors in DNA to be responsible for the
>biochemical system.  You may have as much time as you like.
OK.
CAM in plants. 
The required changes from either direction (C3 or C4) are quite simple.
There are even transitional forms on the way.
I fear it would requier a couple of years training to get you to the point
where a post-length explanation would mean much to you, but theres enough
pointers above for you to research the pathways and intermediates yourself.
(bonus clue to help: the C in CAM stands for Crassulacean).
The way your mind works is transparent: you come up with something you think
is really hard, you then assume it is therefore impossible. Secure in the
"knowledge" that the feat is impossible, you challenge someone to do it,
"knowing" they'll fail. When they actually succeed, you stop answering that
thread, and start another with a new "impossible" challenge. Thus, the above
"impossible" evidence for evolution in biochemical pathways has a history of
antecedents like the "impossible" protowhale transtionals and the
"impossible" transitional features of archaeoptryx and the "impossible" data
classes that would falsify evolution and so on ad nauseam. Your personal
incredulity and the fallacy it leads you into is fast drifting from the
amusing to the annoying. A demonstration that you are capable of learning by
acknowledging just once that something you thought was "impossible" is
actually well known and understood and that you have abadoned that
particular aspect of your case against evolution would be welcome at this
point. 
M.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-   -.-. .- .-.. .-..  -- .  -.-. --- --- ...  .-.-.-   -=-=-=-=-
Mark O'Leary,				Voice: Extn. 6201
Network & Communications Group.		Email: moleary@dmu.ac.uk
De Montfort University, UK.			
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Subject: Re: Mankind's next step
From: Rudy Vonk
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:05:42 +0200
Louis M. Pecora wrote:
> 
> 
> For the prize behind curtain 2, when did the base 9 new millenium take
> place, assuming all counting started at the present base 10 year 1?
> Anyone?
Well, obviously on January 1, 2000 (base 9).
-- 
___________________________________________
Rudy Vonk          (business)
Oviedo, Spain     (private)
Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say.
(from "Twenty Past Midnight")
_________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: Utter Futility of Arguing With Creationists
From: danlee@gate.net
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:04:30 GMT
In <50juko$73j@cutter.cfw.com>, moorej@cfw.com (JeffMo) writes:
>
>
>
>                      ... If God decided to create our universe by
>simply setting into motion our little neighborhood ("universe") with
>all of its natural law and observable order, including Big Bang-type
>cosmology and evolution, who are the creationists to say that he
>*didn't* do it that way?
>
>JeffMo
>
"Who" they are - a subset of Christians who believe in the literal 
interpretation of *some* parts of the Bible - they get to pick and choose
which parts are literal and which parts are poetry and parable.  The common
justification for literalism is: if we don't believe in the historical "scientific"
accuracy of the stories in the Old Testament, then how are we to believe in
the accuracy of the New Testament?  The Bible itself?
The key lies in the concept of "meaning."  Christ told all kinds of parables,
and nobody quibbles about whether there really was a "prodigal son" or a
foolish man who built his house on the sand instead of on a rock.  It's easy
to see why these stories have meaning, regardless of whether they did or 
did not actually occur.  Unfortunately, the greater "meaning" of the stories
told in the Old Testament are not always as apparent as the parables Jesus 
told.
The Tower of Babel story sounds like a classic mythological tale that would
sufficiently explain (to someone in ancient times) why differences in 
language exist.  The lesson is that "God made it that way to teach us some 
lesson about human pride, and when you encounter someone who speaks 
differently, try to remember the lesson."  In modern times we understand a 
little better why two people who both speak English, one from a farm in the 
deep South, the other from the middle of London, can barely understand each 
other.  That doesn't mean the parable is no longer valid - it is - but the 
literalist who has forgotten the meaning of the parable will have no choice 
but to believe that the story reflects an actual event, else why would it be 
in the Bible?
The same holds true with the Creation parable.  It is a classic tale that is
full of meaning, and anyone who has read Joseph Campbell will find many
object lessons buried within it.  But someone who doesn't understand that
a story can have meaning whether it is factual or not is usually going to 
miss the whole point of the story.  
Especially if that someone's belief in God is fragile, and subject to collapse
if he comes to realize that the story may not have actually happened at some
point in time.  Such a person CANNOT believe anything other than the literal
story of Creation without risking everything he stands for.  Therefore to try
dislodge him from those beliefs is quite futile.
Dan
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Subject: IMPACT OROGENY ON EARTH
From: pelorus@ltec.net
Date: 5 Sep 1996 22:44:02 GMT
IMPACT OROGENY ON EARTH
All of the terrestrial planets are pock-marked by impact craters, and the Moon 
has half a dozen impact craters that measure over a thousand kilometers in 
diameter.  To the extent that the Earth has a significantly larger 
cross-sectional diameter and is the dominant gravitational center in the 
Earth-Moon system, it should have experienced multiple impacts that produced 
crater rims measuring thousands of kilometers in diameter.  Where are they?
For decades the paucity of impact-generated structures on Earth’s crustal 
surface has been explained by the many differences that exist between our 
home planet and the other  terrestrial planets and moons.  Earth’s atmosphere, 
for example, is said to vaporize nearly all impactors measuring less than a 
meter in diameter, so these objects don’t hit ground.  Two-thirds of Earth’s 
surface is covered by water, so the oceans both obscure and erase the effects 
of impacts occurring at sea.  Finally, the Earth’s crustal surface is in 
constant plate tectonic motion, a reality that buries impact artifacts over 
time.
It is true that Earth’s atmosphere vaporizes most small impactors.  Two years 
ago the USAF Space Command released several decades of previously classified 
observations that high velocity, one to three-meter sized objects produce high 
atmospheric explosions of the Hiroshima-Nagasaki magnitudes at a fairly regular
 rate, and this same data indicates that smaller impactors collide with Earth on
 a continuous basis.  We may be impressed by atomic bomb class interactions 
between relatively small high velocity rocks and Earth’s atmosphere, and would 
be more awe-struck if these events were occurring at ground level.   Earth’s 
atmosphere protects us from these effects, but none of these collisions would 
ever produce crater rims measuring in the 1,000+ kilometer scale.
It is also true that the oceans prevent many, obscure most, and erode all 
impact crater rims formed upon the floors of seas.  The oldest oceanic crust 
is no more than 250 million years old, so it is not at all unreasonable to 
expect that significant impact-inspired deformations of oceanic basins might 
readily be removed by the dense spreading basalts that create and constitute 
the oceanic crust.  The oceans are so large that most will readily enclose and 
contain crater rims measuring a thousand kilometers in diameter.  This, of 
course, would require that these impacts all occur dead-center in the oceans, 
an unreasonable expectation.  
A more likely scenario is one that portrays the very large impacts as events 
whose associated crater rims affect the continental plates as often as they do 
not.  The land-based portions of these very large crater rims should look 
like "mountains" the same way they do on other hardened planetary and lunar 
structures.  Very large impacts occurring in the central portions of oceans 
should, in the very least, wash huge sea-shell containing sedimentary deposits 
up onto the continental plates.  As it turns out, the atmospheric surfaces of 
over 70% of Earth’s continental plates do consist of sedimentary rocks.  The 
understanding and explicit teaching that these secondary sedimentary land forms
 derive from impacts at sea is at least as old as Plato’s Timaeus and the "myth"
 of a long lost Atlantis  contained therein.
So let’s be generous, for the moment, and accept the wisdom of the ancients who
 knew that large impacts at sea have repeatedly thrown huge waves of sea-floor 
debris up onto the hard rocks of continental cratonic land.  Is this why there 
are no very large impact crater rims on the surfaces of the continents, crater 
rims that should look like arc segments of mountainous circles having diameters
 measuring thousands of kilometers in size?  Have huge waves of ocean-borne  
debris  covered over the mountains with sedimentary deposits? 
Have huge waves of ocean-borne debris blasted away the rocks of the circular 
mountain systems that the Moon’s own surface tells us were once here on Earth, 
too?  Probably not.  The very hard cratonic rocks that form the continental 
roots (and the 30% of surface land that is not sedimentary rock) are billions 
of years old.  Much of this cratonic material forms the resilient shorelines 
from which we go fishing in the seas.  Large and small waves have lapped these 
shorelines for unimaginably long periods of time, yet they persist.
Besides, all of the continental plates do have mountain systems that the seas 
have not washed away or buried.  Some of these mountain systems appear to be 
very old, their sharp craggy edges polished by time, their sharp angular peaks 
hewn into humps and hills.  The Appalachian system of eastern North America is 
like this.
In contrast to these, there are mountain systems that just "look" from their 
sharp edges to be much newer than the Appalachians.  The Rocky Mountains look 
sharp, edged, and "young".  The Andes look sharp, edged, and "new".   The 
Trans-Antarctic Mountains look fresh and recently cleaved.  The Mackenzie 
Range of Canada is rugged.  The Kolyma Mountains of northeast Asia, and the 
Himalayas of southeast Asia are also rough, raw, and peaked.
These mountains also form individual arc segments of a common circle.  Actually,
 it is more impressive than this because the Mackenzie Range of Canada, the 
Rockies of the United States, the mountains that are Central America, the Andes,
 the Trans-Antarctic Mountains, the western Australian Rise, the Philippine 
Islands, the eastern Himalayans, the Kolyma Range of northeast Asia, and the 
Brooks Mountains of Alaska form an almost perfectly round circle of connected, 
co-simultaneously formed mountains on the surface of the Earth.  It sure is 
hard to explain how the collisions of moving plates created those Rocky 
Mountains in the middle of America.
And isn’t it strange how huge shards of oceanic crust have been thrust laterally
 up under the continental plates that surround and enclose the Pacific Ocean, 
forming a circular "Rim of Fire" on the surface of our globe radially removed 
from the largest active volcano of the world.  That’s right, Hawaii, that 
iridium-enriched volcano that dates somewhere between 65 and 70 million years 
old is right in the very bull-eye center of this huge round circular rim of 
rugged ragged mountains.
Nope, that circle of mountains can’t be an impact crater rim.  As almost any 
geologist knows, ours is a uniformitarian existence.  Very large impacts don’t 
happen here, just everywhere else.
On the other hand, if you’d like to know more about impact orogeny (e.g., 
mountain building), see "Hawaii: Tombstone of the Dinosaurs", Eos: Transactions
 of the American Geophysics Union 75:  418, 1994. 
If you’d like to know how the radiometric rock dates confirm the co-simultaneous
 formation of this circle of mountains, read "Plasma Motions Following Lunar 
Genesis: The Theory of Land and Life, Eos: Transactions of the American 
Geophysics Union 75: 226, 1994.
If you just want to get away from uniformitarian doldrums, read Herbert R. 
Shaw’s book "Craters, Chronologies, and Cosmos: A New Theory of Earth (William 
Glen, ed.) 688 pages, 2000+ references, Stanford University Press (1995).  
And, if you just want to know why meteorite ALH84001 is probably a
representative sample of Earth's oldest biogenic crust, you can take a look 
at "The Impact Origin of Genetic Material", in Medical Hypotheses 38: 
92-94, 1992.
If you want a full, complete, and comprehensive discussion of all of the above,
you'll just have to await the appearance of "Babel Rebuilt: The Biological
Derivation of Planck's Constant".  In the meantime... there are thousands of
graduate-level theses suggested by the above. 
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Subject: Re: Mankind's next step
From: Rudy Vonk
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:13:39 +0200
I wrote:
> Louis M. Pecora wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > For the prize behind curtain 2, when did the base 9 new millenium take
> > place, assuming all counting started at the present base 10 year 1?
> > Anyone?
> 
> Well, obviously on January 1, 2000 (base 9).
First, my sincere apologies for posting this before I realized I was
answering something that was cross-posted all over the universe. I am
deeply sorry, Messrs. Oceanographers, Satellite Navigators, etc.
Secondly, of course, I meant to say January 1, 2001 (or December 31,
2000, but _not_ December 31, 1888!)
-- 
___________________________________________
Rudy Vonk          (business)
Oviedo, Spain     (private)
Don't believe everything you hear or anything you say.
(from "Twenty Past Midnight")
_________________________________________________
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Subject: Quiet, Please
From: Teri Miller
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:47:58 GMT
In article ,
Roger Musson  wrote:
>
>Pardon me for intruding on a private argument, but I'm just getting this faint 
>feeling that all the arguments about moderation are turning out to be more of 
>a hassle than the posts which moderation was supposed to protect us from.
>
I completely agree with Roger.  Oliver, Richard, if you want to
keep haranguing each other, would you *please* take it to private
email?
In spite of my best efforts, my killfile has been completely 
unable to keep up with the random non-earthquake-related traffic
on ca.earthquakes.  
I think that the cure has become worse than the disease, and that
the patient is in serious danger of expiring.  
Teri
-- 
**********************************************************************
Teri Miller                                          shannah@rahul.net
**********************************************************************
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Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF
From: tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:56:44 GMT
In <50pf36$t37@tel.den.mmc.com> virdy@pogo.den.mmc.com (Mahipal Singh
Virdy) writes: 
>My Orwellian Nightmare is this: American Corporations have a vested
>interest in isolating people from one another --- to a maximum extent
as
>possible. In this way, the only alternative pasttime people will
engage
>in is watching TV or reading magazines or Internet. Mostly watching
TV,
>to be sure. By the TV these corpoations sell their products via ever
>present advertising. So it is in their stock-holders' interests to get
>as many people before the TV as possible. Hence --- you live your life
>as you do.
>
>Mahipal |meforce>
It is my perception that what divides people
is government and religion, not free market corporations.
The products of corporations tend to be essentials
like food, shelter and clothing, and the non-essentials
the corporations try to sell involve the concept
of socialization. The ads for beer, deodorants,
cosmetics, cars, travel, etc. tend to with socialization.
The main stock in trade of government is creating demons
and division. ( Gun owners, teenage gangs, Black militants, 
Latino's, Arabs, Terrorists, Internet, drugs, etc. )
and use the people's fear of these demons to take freedoms 
from the people and to obtain more security and goodies 
for those in government.
The problem is that America has developed the science
( And art ) of communications to such a level as to
permit government to create and maintain a constant stock
of demons, and thus to keep society in a constant of
agitation. 
When society begins to understand government's
motives and methods, and takes it much less
seriously, and acts to greatly reduces its' size,
society will make a giant leap forward.
Tom Potter        http://pobox.com/~tdp
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Subject: Re: Quiet, Please
From: hough@aladdin.gps.caltech.edu (Susan Hough)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 18:24:58 GMT
Teri Miller (shannah@rahul.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Roger Musson  wrote:
: >
: >Pardon me for intruding on a private argument, but I'm just getting this faint 
: >feeling that all the arguments about moderation are turning out to be more of 
: >a hassle than the posts which moderation was supposed to protect us from.
: >
: I completely agree with Roger.  Oliver, Richard, if you want to
: keep haranguing each other, would you *please* take it to private
: email?
: 
: In spite of my best efforts, my killfile has been completely 
: unable to keep up with the random non-earthquake-related traffic
: on ca.earthquakes.  
: 
: I think that the cure has become worse than the disease, and that
: the patient is in serious danger of expiring.  
(hi Teri).  I wouldn't want to disagree with you too strongly, but I've
come to the conclusion that, on an on-going basis, there just doesn't
seem to be a huge volume of 'legitimate' posts.   That is, as annoying
as some recent 'dialogs' have been, I do think it'd be possible to 
start and continue a rational discussion...if there were interest in doing
so.  Certainly when compared to some other newsgroups, the volume here
still isn't that bad (especially not when people are increasingly moving
towards kill files and more sophisticated news readers).
(go ahead, prove me wrong ;o)
Sue, speaking for myself 
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Subject: Major MLM scam?
From: dnorton@ici.net
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:03:17 +0000
Why join an ongoing MLM program when you can start your own with half the initial investment !!
	Because of the potential of  making  thousands, there must be an investment up front.
Most  MLM  programs this investment is usually  between $200.--$400. 
	When joining an ongoing program you must first purchase four (4) reports at $5.00 each ,
for a total initial investment of $20.  Hereís the problem,  if you decide that
the program is not what you expected, you lose the $20.  Instead of  wasting  $20 on a program you 
may  not use, Invest just $5.00 and receive insiders information on how these plans really operate.
In this detail packet you will be provided with the following information ,
1.	Testimonials from real people like yourself .
2.	Brief descriptions on the following four reports.(which are the         	heart of the plan.)
	REPORT #1	ìHow to make $250,000  through multi-level sales.î
	REPORT #2	ìMajor corporations and multi-level sales.î
	REPORT #3	ìSources for the best mailing lists.î
	REPORT #4	ìEvaluating multi-level sales programs.î
With this information, you will be able to make an educated decision as to whether or not multi-level sales is right for you.  Also you will get information on how to purchase all four reports for half price and also get ALL the materials needed to get your MLM going.
For the above information packet, send $5.00 cash and a self addressed satmped enveloped to:
J.R.
PO BOX 492
RANDOLPH, MA 02368
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Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF
From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:28:20 GMT
In article <50poks$d30@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter) writes:
>
>The main stock in trade of government is creating demons
>and division. ( Gun owners, teenage gangs, Black militants, 
>Latino's, Arabs, Terrorists, Internet, drugs, etc. )
>and use the people's fear of these demons to take freedoms 
>from the people and to obtain more security and goodies 
>for those in government.
>
Sounds about right.  I would put it this way: people need government 
to deal with problems which are to big for them to deal with 
individually.  Thus any government has vested interest in convincing 
people that they do have such problems.  This is not to say that the 
problems are always fake, sometimes they may be real.  But, once a 
government builds up in order to deal with a threat, be it real or 
imaginary, it is obviously reluctant to scale back down.  In such 
situation the temptation to invent threats may be to big to resist.
	... snip ...
>
>When society begins to understand government's
>motives and methods, and takes it much less
>seriously, and acts to greatly reduces its' size,
>society will make a giant leap forward.
I'm not holding my breath.
Mati Meron			| "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu		|  chances are he is doing just the same"
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Subject: Re: discussion of new groups - follow up to Mary Corman cross post repost
From: karish@gondwana.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 19:35:30 GMT
In article <322FB5FA.6805@oro.net>, Richard Adams   wrote:
>Chuck Karish wrote:
>> 
>> In article <322F3168.13B9@oro.net>, Richard Adams   wrote:
>> >The underlying reason why you are very correct
>> >is that the uunet can't control the moderator except
>>              ^^^^^
>> 
>> That's "usenet".
>> The basic usenet group formation guidelines are posted
>> periodically in news.announce.newusers.  It's surprising
>> that someone who proposes himself for a moderator's
>> job doesn't know this.
>
>What is the logic behind the implication that I'm
>a less desireable candidate for a moderator because
>of this issue?  Isn't the most important aspect the
>trust and loyalty issue I've previously addressed?
The moderator has to be knowledgeable and competent as well as
honest and sincere.  The items I've picked at say to me that you
aren't familiar with the way usenet works.
Your articles suggest that you think of usenet newsgroups as if
they were bulletin boards or little clubs.  Many others look at
usenet as a data sharing system, and resent the requirement that
they take an active role in net politics in order to keep their
information stream from being censored.
>I'm be willing to put a complete and thorough
>description of the entire process in the RFD.
As I pointed out earlier, there's no other satisfactory place to
put it.  I think a full discusssion is needed.
Personally I find your proposal repugnant because it bans people
from participating rather than screening out individual
off-topic articles.
The idea of having group readers on vote whom they'd like to see
banned is also repulsive.  It smacks of an exclusive clubbiness
that is the antithesis of usenet's traditional openness.
>The issue here is that I do not have time to be a
>full time human moderator of three newsgroups.
It's too much work to do it fairly, so we'll take a sleazy way
out.  No, thanks.
>There can also be a substantial delay when the
>moderation process is requires human intervention.
>The solution of a robot to do this complicates the
>RFD.  Next I've added further complications through
>the suggestion that the bump list for the robot be
>established by the vote of the group.  More stuff
>to make the RFD longer.  I've already written an
>RFD that had all that stuff and it was rejected
>because it was too complicated.
Maybe this is a clue for you:  The MODERATION SCHEME ITSELF is
too cumbersome, in adition to being unfair.
>I'd be happy to put all the detail in
>the RFD, but I suspect that the moderator of
>the news.announce.newgroups would prefer that
>the "How to write a good newsgroup proposal"
>should be the guideline.  One can't publish an
>official RFD unless its accepted by the
>aforementioned moderator.
Then write up a detailed description and rationale for your
moderation scheme and bring it up for discussion in news.groups
as a proposal for a new semi-standard form of moderation.
--
    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu
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Subject: good engineering
From: rsb@bromine.mcc.com (Richard S. Brice)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:49:28 GMT
>
>Not in Nature.  Nature always does everything bass-ackwards.  A good engineer 
>looking at the way biological systems are constructed will throw up his hands 
>at the sheer amateurishness of the designs.  Why do we have backup nostrils 
>and lots of toes but only one heart or spinal cord?  Why is our vital heart 
>muscle supplied by arteries that are barely large enough to carry the load and 
>tend to get clogged more easily than any other blood vessels in the body?
>
A good engineer would first try and understand what the design
tradeoffs were and why the choices were made before offering
alternate designs.  And, the alternate designs would be made
credible by a thorough design tradeoff analysis.
Engineers make tradeoff decisions based on some set of
target criteria, e.g. manufacturability, survivability,
cost, weight, maintainability, ...  So far as I know, 
we don't yet have a list of mother nature's target
criteria (although some have been proposed, e.g. DArwim).
R. Brice
______
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Subject: Today on Galileo - September 6, 1996
From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 16:57 UT
                              TODAY ON GALILEO
                             September 6, 1996
Galileo's closest approach to Jupiter's moon Ganymede will occur today at
noon PDT (or 17:00 UTC). At that time, the spacecraft will pass only 262 km 
over Ganymede's surface (which is closer than the Space Shuttle orbits the 
Earth!). For 4 hours around this "closest approach," the instruments will be 
making intense measurements of Ganymede's surface, atmosphere, and magnetic 
environment. Galileo will pass over the moon's north pole at a speed of 
8 kilometers per second.
For more information on Galileo and its mission, see the Galileo home page:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/
     ___    _____     ___   
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|      Ron Baalke     | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |  Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   Pasadena, CA    | Either man is alone in the 
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /|                 | universe, or he is not.  Either
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                  | alternative is mind-boggling.
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution
From: puddin@ask.again.com
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:20:57 GMT
On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:55:21 +1300, Stanley Watson
 wrote:
Frank wrote:
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
 Luciano d'Ilori wrote:
 >
 > What you're not taking into account is that the DNA molecule is a
 > digital, error-correcting code.
 >
 > Because we can demonstrate that living things adapt to their
 > surroundings, does not mean we've proved the neo-Darwinian theory
of
 > evolution.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
 What I like to know how DNA or RNA which is so complex came to be by
 mixture of amino acid and protiens? How does DNA multipled itself to
be
 so many?
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
They follow certain laws. These may be called 'formative forces'.
S.W.
Return to Top
Subject: ROCK COLLECTING
From: rrudolph@ix.netcom.com(Robert C Rudolph)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 20:05:58 GMT
  I would like to take my children out rock and fossil collecting in
the New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania areas and would appreciate any
suggestions on locating specific sites.
  Any tips on locations or reference materials such as maps or books
which have specific info would be appreciated.
  Please respond to: rrudolph@ix.netcom.com
  Thanks for your help.
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Subject: Re: PRAYER 31/8, Which of these mean more to you-- email, Net, or
From: DarrenG@cris.com (Darren Garrison)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:14:04 GMT
dyoung@netcom.com (David Young) wrote:
>James McGarity (mcgarity@nomad.net) wrote:
>: I am new to this group and I pray that you are not true degree wielding 
>: professionals. Look at your group and look at the things you are posting. I 
>: suppose I am waisting my breath on this but one can hope.
>
>: James McGarity
>
>: BS computer science / chemistry
>
>Not only are they degree wielding professionals, but in a response received
>from the Director of Computing Services at Dartmouth, I was told that our
>friend Mr. Plutonium is a staff member there. 
>
>  With people like this shaping the minds of college students, I
>sincerely fear for the future of our world. 
At the schools I attended, at least, "staff" usually didn't mean
teaching positions.  The term "faculty" was used for those.  "Staff"
could be anything from the Financial Aid advisor to the janitor.  As
for Dartmouth, I don't know.
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Subject: Re: Mars Life Scam Rigged By NASA, NSF
From: Kennedy
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:46:03 +0100
In article <322F63A8.1A7D@bgu.edu>, Jim Kelly  writes
>Kennedy wrote:
>> Without input from others, none of us learn anything 
>
>Is that so. And when have you aquired/started using
>this philosophy?
All of my life - which is how I managed to obtain the position I
currently hold.  Fortunately most of the individuals I have learned from
were genuine luminaries in my particular field, rather than sad
netsurfers with nothing much better to do than claim -falsely- that all
technology was developed by americans or decry those who attempt to
correct their ignorance and impart some limited knowledge into their
vacuuous minds.  
>
>Myself, I'm another boring face in the crowd who has
>been wrong in the past and anticipate being wrong
>in the future as well.  
That I can believe - but have I claimed to be any different?
Does the correction of wrong statements impart an aura of infallibility?
Perhaps the biggest difference is that I am no longer concerned about
others discovering my mistakes, on the contrary I encourage it.  When
someone finds an error in anothers work then at least two people benefit
- the originator, the finder of the error and anyone else who goes on to
build on the corrected work.  Of course the originator must be mature
enough to admit the mistake when it is pointed out.  When an error is
ignored or simply overlooked time and time again then we all lose out by
slipping down the slope to ignorance while the error is embeded in
accepted fokelore.  From your contributions here I can only assume that
you would be more comfortable with the latter.
>> I have many textbooks but confess I do not possess an almanac, sorry ;=)
>
>Sorry don't believe that one! :-)
There you go again, mistaking me for somebody that gives a sh!t about
what you believe.   ;=)
However, just to clear your confusion, I will reveal my source(s) of
information about the claimed american inventors :
Baird & Bell - well, there can't be many Scots who don't know these two
invented television and telephone respectively - my grandmother even had
a couple of tea towels with this information on it!  So I would suggest
that this is no more than 'common general knowledge'.  Clearly not very
common in your sphere of orbit.
The Lumiere brothers - last year saw the centenary of the invention.
Most people who are aware of what goes on in the world would have
noticed the many celebrations of this event & I visited some of the
exhibitions in London commemorating it.  So perhaps that was coincidence
- I didn't expect some dumb schmuck to claim this was not a French
invention only a year after the centenary of the event.
Shockley et al. - well yes, I did check that one in an old school
physics book before posting.  I was aware that Shockley was born in
England himself, but I must admit I did not know that only one of his
fellow nobel laureates was born in the USA until I read it and checked
in some other textbooks to confirm it - I could give you detailed
references, but the information is in so many solid state textbooks that
I am sure you could find it yourself somewhere.  Given the context of
the original claims, I simply couldn't resist posting the information on
all of them!
Now, Mr Kelly, please explain how I have - by pointing out that most of
the quoted inventions were not made by Americans, but by people from
several other countries - given you the impression that this information
came from some form of almanac.  The only reason I ask is that an
obvious explanation is that you just have an enormous chip on your
shoulder - but I am sure there is more to it than that.   Maybe "Old
Moore's" is the only book YOU possess or have read.   :o)
_______________________________________________________
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers
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Subject: Re: Utter Futility of Arguing With Creationists
From: krolczyk@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:05:33 -0500
gjunghei@ix.netcom.com(Gregory Jungheim) writes:
>In <50nel7$9pt@Mars.mcs.com> krolczyk@MCS.COM (Chris Krolczyk) writes: 
>Now you did it Chris,
>Those Unitarian-Univeralists are gonna _flame_ your ass! (No mass
>but they give good wine and cheese).
Ah, well. Is it possible that they'll at least save me whatever 
good Cabernet Savignon and Brie they've got left over for the 
aftermath? >:)
>Greg (Pope, True and Original Church of Chuck, Atheist) Jungheim
Hopefully Chuck is as much a syncretist (all _hail_ the triumvirate
of Bugs Bunny, J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and Free Beer!) as I am. >:)
-- 
Chris Krolczyk    krolczyk@mcs.com
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Subject: Re: good engineering
From: e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (Ed Pearlstein)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 21:17:03 GMT
rsb@bromine.mcc.com (Richard S. Brice) writes, re engineering the human body:
>A good engineer would first try and understand what the design
 tradeoffs were and why the choices were made before offering
 alternate designs.  And, the alternate designs would be made
>credible by a thorough design tradeoff analysis.
     A good engineer wouldn't run a waste pipe through a playground!
Return to Top
Subject: Re: DF Re: The Ultimate Unity of Science and Religion.
From: Jim Akerlund
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:34:35 +0000
dfried@creighton.edu wrote:
> 
> I dont think we will ever know whether God created the universe or or if
> it the universe always has existed, or what then created god, if time has
> always existed or its existence relates to the big bang and the expansion
> of the universe as matter (galaxies) fly through three dimensional space
> form one point to the next.  Are there alternate universes?  could
> existence be a dream inside the head of God?
> 
> david
> 
> dfried@creighton.edu
Hey David, think about this.  All of the concepts you just described 
except for God were not in existance before the 1920's.  There were no 
parallel universes.  The Milky Way was the universe.  The universe 
didn't expand, and the thought that existance was based on a dream 
inside God's head was a concept from hinduism, and nobody of a western 
frame of thought would even think that that was possible.
So here you are with your great wisdom of the 1990's, and you come to 
the wonderful conclusion that we will never know.  I think not.
Jim Akerlund
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