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ale2 wrote: > [...] might one have a small chance of measuring a violation of the > Uncertainty Principle? My view, which is not yet accepted by others, is that what's been referred to as "uncertainty" has everything to do with the existence of sub-emission energy flows, and nothing to do with Physically-Real limits. In the future (if I'm reading things right, the near future), when folks have come to terms with the fact that Physical Reality is "subtle", and have learned that massive applications of energy "just" come up against self-generated inertial dynamics, within the artificially-imposed group discipline of which, the True subtlety of Physical Reality remains hidden, then we'll see a lot of elegant experiments, performed in gentle energy realms, but having ever-more-refined Geometry with respect to energy flow dynamics, and we'll see experiments in which sub-threshold flows are successfully combined. And in this way, the concept of "uncertainty" will gradually be whittled down to Certainty. "uncertainty" was an error resulting from the oft-reiterated behavioral propensity to take what's "in-hand" (what's familiar), and to call it "everything there is". ken collins _____________________________________________________ People hate because they fear, and they fear because they do not understand, and they do not understand because hating is less work than understanding.Return to Top
In <328B65B7.545@ccgate.dp.beckman.com> Paul BrownReturn to Topwrites: >>Moreover, there are cryoprotectants which can inhibit the formation of ice >>crystals and instead form vitreous (glassy) ice. This is the focus of most >>cryobiology research aimed at freezing larger tissues. >How do they deliver this protectant? Hypothermic perfusion through the vascular system. >What is its structure? The solution that's been optimized for kidneys is a mixture of DMSO, propylene glycol, and formamide. I could draw the chemical structures, but that would be rather pedantic. >No one that I ask seems to know. I posted a reference giving complete details of this research yesterday. Again, it is: http://www.prometheus-project.org/prometheus/organ-cryopreservation.html >It must be some sort of alchemical elixir. Pejoratives again? Don't know what your field is, but the journals you publish in sure must have colorful Letters to the Editor. :) *************************************************************************** Brian Wowk CryoCare Foundation 1-800-TOP-CARE President Human Cryopreservation Services cryocare@cryocare.org wowk@cryocare.org http://www.cryocare.org/cryocare/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
IG (Slim) Simpson wrote: > Why quote from a book that , for the most part, I don't accept. If I > quote from the Koran (Sp?) will it make any difference to you?? > > Slim "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) -- Judson McClendon Sun Valley Systems judsonmc@ix.netcom.comReturn to Top
wowk@cc.umanitoba.ca (Brian Wowk) enunciated: > I posted a reference giving complete details of this >research yesterday. Again, it is: >http://www.prometheus-project.org/prometheus/organ-cryopreservation.html From the referenced welcome page: "If the Prometheus Project's goal of fully reversible suspended animation is successfully accomplished, it will have an enormous impact on the practice of medicine. Doctors will have the option of placing their terminal patients into suspended animation until future technology can cure what is killing them. Many people with incurable and terminal conditions will elect such a procedure with the reasonable expectation that advances in medical science will find cures for their conditions in the near future. They would then be revived and cured before rejoining their loved ones and continuing the life that would otherwise have been prematurely taken from them." Now... I see nothing wrong with this research. This is not talking about putting a dead person on ice it is talking about suspending the person. As the paper detailed NASA thought about it in the 70's and luckily they didn't project it to more fiction. The Project's goal is a viable scientific field of study. But there remains a fine line between doing this to humans, running the risk of a single one not being reanimated...... All it will take is one, and the whole group goes down for murder. So I guess its easier to play with people that are already dead. CryoCare Foundation http://www.cryocare.org/cryocare/ I can not fault the intentions of this organization but I can quote: "After legal death is pronounced, delicate human tissues are quickly damaged by lack of blood flow. During cryopreservation, further tissue damage occurs as a result of the freezing process." OK! I agree. Then: "Some people feel it may be unnecessary to minimize these two types of injury, since future science should be able to undo any harm that occurs today. We feel differently: that we should do everything in our power to minimize damage today, because there is no absolute guarantee that this damage will be reversible tomorrow." I applaud the organizations attitude toward the "do no harm" precept. But I wonder...if it were possible to revive dead bodies (aka Mary Shelly) claiming that science may be able to undo any previous damage is putting science into the business of creationism. And why isn't it listened to when the statement is made that there is no guarantee that damage will be reversible tomorrow? If thawing out a pile of mush can be made to be alive again it should at least be a vegatable. But I point out the same thing mentioned earlier: It will take quite a long time to see if this happens. In the mean time the companies doing it will have to remain financially solvent. It appears efforts have been made to see that such happens. So in the end if nothing does work as planned, we can be assured that a group of people will have had careers, guaranteed to be paid for. And also be assured that nothing will happen to those people for having pulled off something that didn't work since they state right up front that it just might not. But there might be a zealous prosecutor somewhere who decides to try the desecration of a corpse issue. Then again, those who benefitted from the endeavor will not have to worry about that issue. Piles of human mush do not make good defendants. It is such a perfectly developed machine I wonder who to give the credit to. As a Russian acquiantance of mine has recently said, upon learning of this country's ridiculous overwrought preoccupation with trying to stay alive: "They proceed to freeze after death ? If just so then the cryonics is the double deception since both a live brain and a dead brain will be destroyed by ice crystals." And all of the effort so far has rested on the need to protect such freezing from causing damage. Which mean preparatory efforts, not something that can be corrected later. Which I guess leaves all those heads and those frozen cadavers hanging. They died too soon? Why didn't someone tell them to hang in there a bit longer....... Nah. lkh Lee Kent Hempfling...................|lkh@cei.net chairman, ceo........................|http://www.aston.ac.uk/~batong/Neutronics/ Neutronics Technologies Corporation..|West Midlands, UK; Arkansas, USA.Return to Top
> jcooper@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (jason cooper)wrote: >Subject: How do we *know* electron spin is not real? >Date: 15 Nov 1996 02:28:33 GMT >I was told in a second-year Quantum course that the "spin" on an >electron is not, in fact, any kind of real spin. One reason I >was given ran something along the lines of "Given the known >radius of the electron, we can calculate how fast it would have >to spin to have the moment attributed to it. Such a spin would >require FTL motion on its outer surface"... Dirac had this picture: An electron does not move along a straight line, but "trembles" (zitterbewegung) at the velocity of light about a point. The dancing motion was declared to cover a region of the size (h bar/mc) where m is the electron's mass obtained experimentally. Thus he postulated that the electron's charge (e) describes a small current-carrying loop so that the electron behaves like it has a magnetic moment of ( e h bar/2mc ). In effect the loop is spinning at c in Dirac's theory. >A couple of questions here. First off, how do we know the radius >of an electron? >Second, given that the electron is (to my knowledge) a truly >elementary particle, it must have no internal structure. How >could we test empirically whether a particle with no internal >structure was spinning? Specifically, how could we test the >electron? Have we? Sounds like ye olde "perfectly homogeneous >spinning disk" philisophical problem... The electron and positron are two different particles and are composed of photons. If we insist the electron and positron are point particles without structure, that is a logical inconsistency. For a model that not only shows a unique electron and positron photon structure but why they spin ( the momentum of the EM energy adds in their structural models ). The unique structures simultaneously allows one to hang *all* of the electron's fundamental physical constants ( mass, spin angular momentum, charge and magnetic moment ) on the simple structure. See http://www.best.com/~lockyer/home3.htm for an outline of this successful model. Note that the model structure has Dirac's declared edge length of (h bar/mc) (the rationalized Compton wavelength of the electron). Note the model has two current loops, thus giving the electron it's anomalous g' factor of 2. The model works perfectly. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Everyone can be taught to sculpt; > Michelangelo would have had to be taught not to. >Jason Cooper jcooper@acs.ucalgary.ca Regards: Tom: http://www.best.com/~lockyer/home.htmReturn to Top
ADDRESS: Grzegorz Kruk, Ph.D. Wysoka 12A/146 41-200 Sosnowiec Poland (please register mail) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ or ph./fax/modem (2400-8-N-1) +48 32 1995546 EDUCATION: Ph.D. 13th of December 1993, graduated from Trinity College, University of Dublin, Ireland. Thesis: FT Infrared Spectroscopy of Liquid Crystals. Papers: A. Kocot, R. Wrzalik, G. Kruk, J.K. Vij, Molecular Materials, v.1, p.273-279, (1992). A. Kocot, G. Kruk, R. Wrzalik, J.K. Vij, Liquid Crystals, v.12, n.6, p.1005-1012, (1992). J.K. Vij, A. Kocot, G.Kruk, R. Wrzalik, R. Zental, Mol. Cryst. Liq. Cryst., v. 14, p. 337-350, (1993). G. Kruk, A. Kocot, R. Wrzalik, J.K. Vij, O. Karthaus, H. Ringsdorf, Liquid Crystals, v.14, n.3, p.807-820, (1993). G. Kruk, J.K. Vij, O. Karthaus, H. Ringsdorf, Supramolecular Science, v.2, p.51-58, (1995). 6th of July 1989, graduated from Silesian University, Katowice, Poland, (specialization: experimental and applications of physics). Degree of Magistri (Master) in Physics. M.Sc. Graduation Exam: "A" Total Grade Point Average "B" (4.0) Thesis: Strong Thermal Lens Induced by Laser Light in Mixtures of Organic Liquids with Ferrocene. Published in Berichte der Bunsenges. Phys. Chem., v.94, p.417-420, (1990) by G. Kruk and Z. Gburski. INTERNATIONAL MEETINGS: Internal EC SCI*0291 project meeting, 1990, University of Dublin, Ireland. 14th International Liquid Crystal Conference, 1991, Pisa, Italy, (Presented 2 posters). Internal EC SCI*0291 project meeting, 1992, University of Manchester, U.K., (Seminar). WORK EXPERIENCE 1988-1994 physicist, Silesian University, Katowice, Poland. Duties: 1) preparing and explaining basic experiments on physics for undergraduate students. 2) writing computer programmes for experiments 3) designing and performance supervising of new experimental setups for experiments within undergraduate course 4) supervising students performing their own experiments 5) supervising maintenance jobs on experimental hardware 6) assembling electronic hardware for experiments like e.g. interfaces for meters and also writing software in ASSEMBLER 1989-1990 part time teacher of programming in PASCAL and BASIC, III Liceum Ogolnoksztalcace im. A. Mickiewicza, Katowice, Poland. Duties: 1) Installing software 2) Teaching programming in Pascal and Basic and also how to run and operate other applications 1991-1993 research student, EEE Department, Trinity College, University of Dublin, Dublin, Ireland. (working for EC research project SCI*0291 in cooperation with groups of University of Mainz and University of Manchester). Duties: 1) Laboratory research on liquid crystals and discotic liquid crystals using FTIR spectroscopy equipment and polarizing microscopy including: a) FTIR Spectrometer BIO-RAD FTS60A a Motorola 68000 based system with IDRIS operating system b) Programmable Intelligent Temperature Controller Oxford ITC4 2) Writing software applications for data handling in FORTRAN 3) Data handling and plotting on VAX/VMS (MATLAB), UNIX, DOS (EASYPLOT, WORD, LOTUS MANUSCRIPT) 4) Preparing seminars for internal project meetings and conferences 5) Correcting tutorials 6) Supervising students working with MATLAB during first course of Digital Signal Processing 03.1994 - Owner of "RAVEN" -Translation & Interpreting Services Bureau. Cooperating with: East Europen Business Centre, Welling, London, Kent International Language Engineering, Boulder, CO, USA (signed contract) Duties: 1) Manager 2) Accountant 3) Translator 4) Writing and modifying own software for accountancy PROGRAMMING: PASCAL, FORTRAN, C EXPERIENCE WITH OPERATING SYSTEMS: VMS, UNIX, DOS, RSX-11, CP/M, TOS, LANGUAGES: English-fluent, Polish-native. OTHER SKILLS: driving licence, yacht steersman licence INTERESTED IN: programming, robotics, computer simulations, AI, optical computing, OB, optical transistor, space research. OTHER FIELDS OF INTEREST: sailing, skiing, sport driving, basketball, swimming, movies, chess. already 33 y.o. (born on July 27th, 1963) , married, 2 children. REFERENCES: Prof. H. Robinson-Hammerstein, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ph. +353-1-7021045 Prof. J.K. Vij, EEE Department, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland. ph. +353-1-7021431Return to Top
In article <328C0F1F.3CFE@flash.net>, elias@flash.net wrote: > Who cares how God created the universe??? All that matters is that he > did. However he accomplished it, is beyond my need to know. He did > that is all that matters. You see, here is the fundamental (pardon the choice of words) difference between the fundamentalist and the scientist. The fundamentalist says: "God did it, and that's all I want to know." The scientist says: "Hmmm...let's see if we can find out more about this." I think that the two sides are, in all likelyhood (sp), completely irreconcilable. But note that it's the scientists that end up providing us with fun things like the Internet. If we had stopped at "God sends lightining, and that's all I want to know," the world would be rather different right now. -- HAZARDOUS CHEMICAL http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages/hazchem/hazchem.html "Cynic, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." (Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)Return to Top
On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Richard Harter wrote: > Bob GoreReturn to Topwrote: > > > > >On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Richard Harter wrote: > > >> moggin@mindspring.com (moggin) wrote: > >> > >> >cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter): > >> > >> >>>:Who was that masked man from Crete, anyway? > >> > >> >moggin@mindspring.com (moggin) > >> > >> >>> Ask him and he'll tell you. > >> > >> >Richard: > >> > >> >>Liar > >> > >> > Like, duh. > >> > >> What are you gibbering about? > >> > > > Ahem. Richard, you missed your cue. You said, "liar!" Moggin gave > >the standard reply, "like, duh!" At this point, the script allows you a > >small degree of improvisation; you may choose between a). "moron!" or b) > >"retard!" Think of it as Kabuki without eyeshadow. > > Btw, isn't this in the FAQ? > > > You're absolutely right. Color me abashed, distraught, confounded. > Not only did I step out of the script, I used a line without its > proper prerequisites. I think I'll go fall on my sword, fortunately a > virtual. > > One summer whilst in college I played in summer-stock melodrama. We > had but a week to put together the sets, put up the tent, learn all > our lines and rehearse. The first few performances were a tad rocky. > It was not just that people missed their cues; sometimes people > responded to a cue with a line from another act and the scene proceded > to launch off into weirdland. Somehow we always managed gracefully > [or not so gracefully] to wrench the blasted thing back into its > proper course. > > So, you see, I am no stranger to this sort of thing. Think of it as > improvisional kabuki. > Graciously conceded, sir. Btw, during your acting career, did you ever have the experience of other actors feeding you lines, not merely from another act, but from an entirely different play? Gives a completely different meaning to the word "improv," let me tell you. You think you're performing Neil Simon pseudo-farce, and before you know it, you're trying to kill Tybalt sans epee. Bob
Robert. Fung wrote: > > > No, as far as I know, you can never be sure that you have only one photon. > > It's implied that this is the case in this recent work: > http://p23.lanl.gov/Quantum/kwiat/ifm-folder/ifmtext.htm > I'll take a look at it. > > Take a course (or two) in quantum mechanics to find out how > > this all works. It's a nice way to while away the time! > > Perhaps this is a more pedagogical description of the > applicability of photons ? : > > The Nyquist limit: > > delta w * delta t >= 1/2 > > leads to a sampling limit of twice the frequency of the > highest frequency component of a signal. > Yes, this applies to any wave-type phenomena. > The corresponding HUP eq is: > > delta E * delta t >= h > > since E=hw. > Given that the state functions satisfy a wave equation (Schroedinger's equation), a relationship like the HUP should be expected. One way in which modern text books derive it is from a Fourier transform from configuration space to momentum space. Heisenberg's original method used the commutators; there are many ways to specify the formalism of QM. > But what does this mean ? E=hw is a continuous function > of E for w. It only applies when matter e.g. the Bohr > model of electron shells etc. is involved ? > E = h*w (actually, h*f; you've got an extra factor of 2pi there, unless you mean h_bar) is always true for photons. > > A magnet surrounded by iron filings exhibits magnetic > field quantization nicely I think. When the field passes > through uniform spread of filings the filings move into > Faraday lines. This is not quantization, and if you use something with very fine particles in a liquid suspension, you'll see that those lines disappear (I think). Better get another opinion here, I think! > Why ? The filings bunch > together into the Faraday lines. They quantize in this > way because the magnetic field prefers to go through > the filings rather than free space. This leaves a > magnetic depletion zone between the lines where filings > were, while additional filings placed in these zones > will move into the existing lines. > Well, this is true, but it isn't quantization. The magnetic field lines just follow the path of least resistance. And though we've both refered to magnetic field lines, these really don't exist ... all we have are flux densities. The field lines are a convenient fiction. Best Regards, PeterReturn to Top
lkh@mail.cei.net (Lee Kent Hempfling) wrote: >CryoCare Foundation http://www.cryocare.org/cryocare/ >I can not fault the intentions of this organization but I can quote: >"After legal death is pronounced, delicate human tissues are quickly >damaged by lack of blood flow. During cryopreservation, further tissue >damage occurs as a result of the freezing process." >OK! >I agree. >Then: >"Some people feel it may be unnecessary to minimize these two types of >injury, since future science should be able to undo any harm that >occurs today. We feel differently: that we should do everything >in our power to minimize damage today, because there is no absolute >guarantee that this damage will >be reversible tomorrow." >I applaud the organizations attitude toward the "do no harm" precept. It would seem that "do as little as harm as possible" is more what is meant by this. If you had a gangrenous leg and a surgeon refused to amputate on grounds that the remaining stump would be aesthetically unappealling, and used this "do no harm" argument. When present-day patients are pronounced legally dead, cryonics is the last hope for them. Do you agree? Or is there some afterlife from which the patient is excluded? >But I wonder...if it were possible to revive dead bodies (aka Mary >Shelly) claiming that science may be able to undo any previous damage >is putting science into the business of creationism. So what's wrong with science being in the business of creationism? Any fertile human male and female can be in the same business with a little pleasureable effort and a little luck. Are you saying that there is something "sacred" about creating life? >And why isn't it listened to when the statement is made that there is >no guarantee that damage will be reversible tomorrow? Consider the alternative: There is a guarantee that I will never see another sunset if I am NOT cryopreserved. I LIKE sunsets; I want to see more of them. I can't see ANY sunsets if my brain rots. Agreed? A thought experiment for you: you're walking in the jungle and you spy a man-eating tiger rushing toward you. You quickly look around, looking for escape routes. There is a tree nearby. You have a small chance of climbing the tree before the tiger reaches you. You know it's your only chance. Do you try for the tree, or since the chance is small, do you give up? >If thawing out a pile of mush can be made to be alive again it should >at least be a vegatable. What a wit. >But I point out the same thing mentioned earlier: It will take quite a >long time to see if this happens. In the mean time the companies doing >it will have to remain financially solvent. It appears efforts have >been made to see that such happens. So in the end if nothing does work >as planned, we can be assured that a group of people will have had >careers, guaranteed to be paid for. Why don't you do some investigating into cryonics and find these cryo-hucksters. If you can indeed find such, I, and every other cryonicist, will be quite grateful. >And also be assured that nothing will happen to those people for >having pulled off something that didn't work since they state right up >front that it just might not. Of course, you can't know this, but take it from me, in the entire history of cryonics, there has never been one person involved with any cryonics company who didn't fervently want to be preserved himself. >But there might be a zealous prosecutor somewhere who decides to try >the desecration of a corpse issue. Then again, those who benefitted >from the endeavor will not have to worry about that issue. Piles of >human mush do not make good defendants. You mean good 'witnesses." Why do I bother? >It is such a perfectly developed machine I wonder who to give the >credit to. Huh? >As a Russian acquiantance of mine has recently said, upon learning of >this country's ridiculous overwrought preoccupation with trying to >stay alive: >"They proceed to freeze after death ? > If just so then the cryonics is the double deception since > both a live brain and a dead brain will be destroyed by ice >crystals." Semantic games? >And all of the effort so far has rested on the need to protect such >freezing from causing damage. Which mean preparatory efforts, not >something that can be corrected later. >Which I guess leaves all those heads and those frozen cadavers >hanging. They died too soon? Why didn't someone tell them to hang in >there a bit longer....... Nah. I give up. I'm lost in a semantic and logical morass here.... >lkh >Lee Kent Hempfling...................|lkh@cei.net >chairman, ceo........................|http://www.aston.ac.uk/~batong/Neutronics/ >Neutronics Technologies Corporation..|West Midlands, UK; Arkansas, USA.Return to Top
It is a well known (and often remarked upon) fact that the www was invented by the HEP community at CERN as a means of facilitating rapid communication. How was it that they weren't able to add markup symbols for mathematical equations to the original HTML spec? Were they not interested in communicating physics or was the concept taken from the physicists before they had a chance to make it workable? The HTML 3.0 spec (which included a math tag) was recently dropped in favour of 3.2 (which does not include math). One of the reasons for dropping the math tag seems to be that the major players (Netscape, et al.) just ignored it in the 3.0 spec. Does anyone know how the heathens managed to co-opt this valuable tool? Ken Muldrew kmuldrew@acs.ucalgary.caReturn to Top
kim kyongsok wrote: > what's the difference between cm3 and ml. Originally (definition of 1901), the liter was the volume of 1 kg pure water at maximum density and at standard athmospheric pressure. In the 1950s, volume measurement techniques became precise enough to discover that the liter and dm^3 differed by around 28*10^-6. Therefore, in 1964, the word "liter" was redefined to be a special short name for cubic decimeter. Since then, a liter has been only approximately the volume of a kilogram of pure water at 4 degrees Celsius, but you need *extremely* good volume measurement equipment to tell the difference. Therefore, today 1 cm^3 and 1 mL are exactly the same volume, and mL is just easier to write. About the abbreviation of liter: based on existing practice, the SI standard allows both L and l, i.e. also both mL and ml. In Europe, I have so far seen mostly ml as the abbreviation for milliliter. In the U.S., NIST SP PUB 330 (the official translation of the SI standard for the U.S.) allows only the L as the abbreviation for liter, therefore you see here on products usually text like 500 mL. The reason: In the U.S., the number one is written by hand just as a vertical single stroke, and not like in Europe with an upstroke. Therefore, l and 1 can be confused here much more easily than in Europe. [About the U.S. way of writing a 1 as a single vertical stroke: I personally think it is a bit of a pain in science classes when you copy notes from a blackboard, because a subscript 1 and a comma after a variable are absolutely not distinguishable, and often the context also gives you not many hints. But as Americans confuse the European handwritten 1 with a American handwritten 7 (no vertical bar) very easily, I gave up the European upstroke at the 1. However I still write my 7 the European way, as this causes no confusion and adds some safety redundancy. I guess this is the optimal digit compatibility solution.] > is it o.k. to say that 1 ml is equal to 1 cm3 Yes, since 1964, they have been exactly the same thing. > also what's the difference between cc and cm3? cc is an English abbreviation of the words "cubic centimeter". It is not defined in the SI standard and you should not use it. "mL" is as easy to write and pronounce as "cc", so better use "mL" instead. You can use cm^3 or ml or mL whatever you prefer, but please not cc. Markus -- Markus Kuhn, Computer Science grad student, Purdue University, Indiana, US, email: kuhn@cs.purdue.eduReturn to Top
Helge Moulding wrote: > But > if you can't understand the basis of the scientific method, none of > this matters. > I am back to asking, how do we actually acquaint science students with > the scientific method? Lemme suggest this test. If a student can *do* > the scientific method *without* knowing what it is called or what the > definition of the term "scientific method" is, then a science teacher > has succeeded. I think most science teachers fail by this test. I have been, by some definitions, a science "teacher" for 30 years, plus. I have never pretended to know a damn thing about teaching, having never received any instruction in teaching. All I know is if the students do what I tell them to do they WILL learn, including how to think and work in a scientific manner. Looking back, I have had spectacular successes and spectacular failures. Perhaps those who don't learn under me would have done much better under someone who knew something about teaching, perhaps not. Last year I met two of my ex-students who have gone into business for themselves. I apologized to them for not being able to give them more background for the work they are now doing, and they both said the same thing: "You did something much more important. You taught us how to think." I was on cloud nine for the next week. Charles Wm. DimmickReturn to Top
Judson McClendonReturn to Topwrote: >IG (Slim) Simpson wrote: >> Why quote from a book that , for the most part, I don't accept. If I >> quote from the Koran (Sp?) will it make any difference to you?? > >"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any >two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and >of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of >the heart." (Hebrews 4:12) Mr. McClendon, I'm not sure you got the point of Slim's post. His point was, (and it's quite valid, I believe) that if someone does not accept the Bible as the truth, isn't quoting *FROM* the Bible quite obviously the least effective way to convince him of anything? I have seen some reasonable arguments for the upholding of Christian principles, or for the accuracy of the Bible or other holy books; none of them rested on the actual book's _content_, because it was the validity of said content that was in question. If I wanted to convince you that natural selection created humankind (that is, if I *wanted* to), I would perhaps point to the current body of evidence that supports it, or at least to the scientific principles violated by different versions of creation theories. I most certainly wouldn't try to convince you by liberally quoting the wit and wisdom Charles Darwin, the person whose opinions on origins you are completely opposed to, a person whom you wouldn't trust to begin with! Isn't this obvious? You're doing more or less the same thing by quoting the Bible. Perhaps a less dogmatic approach would be more effective. >Judson McClendon >Sun Valley Systems judsonmc@ix.netcom.com Hugs and Spiff!, Caj
In articleReturn to Top, peter@cara.demon.co.uk (Peter Ceresole) wrote: >In article <56f04q$n3m@phunn1.sbphrd.com>, >Frank_Hollis-1@sbphrd.com.see-sig (Triple Quadrophenic) wrote: > >>That's one. > >What could you possibly mean by that? > If you two aren't careful, you are going to get your rods/lines tangled :) Then what can you catch? DAC