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Subject: Re: Time & space, still (was: Hermeneutics ...) -- From: moggin@mindspring.com (moggin)
Subject: Leyden Jars and Ben Franklin -- From: "David A. Caldwell"
Subject: Harmonics Theory Basics 1 -- From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Subject: Re: time measurement foolishness -- From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Subject: Re: The Physics of Absolute Motion -- From: devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
Subject: Re: ARROW OF TIME -- From: "Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D."
Subject: Re: Time & space, still (was: Hermeneutics ...) -- From: cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter)
Subject: Re: how strong can permanent magnets get? -- From: Alan \"Uncle Al\" Schwartz
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: zeleny@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Universal Coordinate System -- From: Ian Robert Walker
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria Weineck)
Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution -- From: oscar@ultra.net.au (Oscar)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Subject: Re: Clifford Algebra, quaternions; Witten's Large N expansion -- From: Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium)
Subject: Time Space -- From: User
Subject: Re: faster than light travel -- From: "E. Converse"
Subject: Re: freedom of privacy & thoughts -- From: caesar@copland.udel.edu (Johnny Chien-Min Yu)
Subject: This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics (Week 95) -- From: baez@math.ucr.edu (John Baez)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: +@+.+ (G*rd*n)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?) -- From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Subject: Abian vs Einstein -- From: abian@iastate.edu (Alexander Abian)
Subject: Re: Feynman Project 2 -- From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Subject: Electric field spreads out then "collapses back"? -- From: jjtom4@imap2.asu.edu
Subject: Re: What is the Cause of Time Dilation? -- From: tsar@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Harmonics Theory Basics 1 -- From: ale2@psu.edu (ale2)
Subject: WHY do we need to go faster than c (light) -- From: raven@david.silesia.pik-net.pl (Grzegorz Kruk Ph.D.)
Subject: Re: Sophistry 103 (was: I know that!) -- From: dcs2e@darwin.clas.virginia.edu (David Swanson)
Subject: Re: Reader's Digest on deconstruction -- From: Robert Dodier

Articles

Subject: Re: Time & space, still (was: Hermeneutics ...)
From: moggin@mindspring.com (moggin)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:15:54 GMT
cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter)
>>>Notably absent among the flurry of postings, quoted repostings, and
>>>posturings were any direct answer to the question mati asked, neither
>>>"yes" nor "no" nor even "I haven't the foggiest and don't give a
>>>shit".   How utterly quaint.
moggin@mindspring.com (moggin)
>>   I gave several direct answers, including "It's irrelevant," which
>>has "I don't give a shit" as a corrolary.  My offer to Mati applies to
>>you, too -- if you want to reply, I'll be glad to hear from you.   And
>>if you want to comment from the peanut gallery, then I offer you
>>congratulations on a job well done.
Richard:
>Well, that's fair enough.  "It's irrelevant and I don't mean to
>answer" is an answer of sorts.  But, you see, you didn't actually say
>that.  Your "answers" may well have implied that (in your opinion) but
>such is by no means obvious nor is it in any way direct and to the
>point.
   Seems to me I threatened to wear out the term "irrelevant."  Don't
you remember it that way?  Of course I meant to answer,  and did --
in a way I thought had relevancy.  I presume you have other ideas on
the subject, although what they might be remains unclear.
>Since Mati's question reflects a key point in his argument you are, in
>effect, saying that his entire argument is irrelevant, that it should
>not even be considered, and that only that which you wish to say
>should be considered and that only on your terms a position which
>does, indeed, make discourse quite pointless.
   If Mati has a key point he wants to make, I wouldn't hesitate to say
that he should make it.  And if it's not only key, but relevant, then
time's a-wasting -- he shouldn't be waiting around for my consent.
-- moggin
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Subject: Leyden Jars and Ben Franklin
From: "David A. Caldwell"
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:34:49 -0700
I know this may sound trival to all of you, but please...if you know
what kind of animal Ben Franklin used in experimenting with the Leyden
jar, please reply.  Thanks-DC
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Subject: Harmonics Theory Basics 1
From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:15:44 GMT
It is clear to me that not many people have grasped the basic concept of
the harmonics theory.  This is evident because of the accusations by a
number of scientific types that there is something arbitrary in the
harmonics that I say are the important ones.  For that reason I thought
that I would take it a bit slower with a small step at a time.  I am
prone to going too fast, so please stop me if I do that.
In my theory the universe is like a big block of solid steel, except
that it is much stronger even than steel and it has no internal
structure at all to begin with.  The importance of this is that
absolutely everything from atoms to galaxies will be explained by one
simple law.  All of the structure and things that we observe are just
oscillation modes of this universal solid substrate.  All of the laws of
physics are subsets of this.
For those that understand a little music they will know that a violin,
guitar or piano string can vibrate with different numbers of waves along
the string.  Here is a crude ascii picture of what happens:
first            _____--------_____
harmonic     .===                  ===.
mode             -----________-----
second         ___----___   ___----___
harmonic     .=          =.=          =.
mode           ---____---   ---____---
and so on for the 3rd, 4th and higher harmonics.  When a guitar string
is plucked, even if only the 1st harmonic is present initially, energy
will gradually transfer to the other harmonics because of what
mathematicians call non-linearity.
For a stringed instrument the oscillations are easy to picture as they
are essentially only one dimensional.  The same sort of thing happens in
2D on the surface of a drum so there are various shapes which are nodes
whereas for the stringed instruments the nodes are points.  In 3D the
same sort of thing can happen and a structure of waves exists in 3D.
For example a block of steel (such as an anvil, which is a favourite one
:-) when struck will have a definite ringing with a variety of different
harmonics.
Now here is the one law in the harmonics theory from which everything
about the universe derives:
      The universe has an initial oscillation which creates
      harmonics and each of the harmonics does the same.
Not much is it?  However it is the second part about the harmonics doing
the same which is unexpected and not previously considered.  When it is
considered all the magic of the structure of the universe unfolds.
Our initial number 1 wave forms other waves that fit into the universe
2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc times.  That much is pretty standard stuff.  However
according to my theory each of these waves forms harmonics also, which
are divisions of these waves.  So the 2nd harmonic (which fits 2 times
into the universe) makes harmonics which fit 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 times into
the universe because each of the 2 parts divide also into 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
etc.  Likewise the 3rd harmonic forms waves of frequency 6, 9, 12, 15,
18 and so on.  And so on for all the harmonics.
At first it might seem that this is not much different from any other
harmonic structure in a musical instrument.  However when the
calculations are done it is seen that some harmonics occur in many
different ways while others do not.  For example the waves of frequency
1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 all produce energy at the frequency 12 (the 12th
harmonic of the original wave) while waves 11 and 13 only occur one way.
When allowance is made for the fact that the 4th and 6th harmonics also
occur in multiple ways it is found that the 12th harmonic is 8 times
more powerful than the 11th or 13th.
At very high numbers some harmonic numbers occur in a phenomenally high
number of ways.  The number 34560 is an especially important number in
this way but that will be the subject of another article.
For now, I would like to know, is the above perfectly clear?
So far it is intended to be only a statement of the basic assumption of
the harmonics theory.  All the other assumptions will be the same as
accepted physics except that some accepted physics will be derived
rather than assumed.
-- Ray Tomes -- rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz -- Harmonics Theory --
http://www.vive.com/connect/universe/rt-home.htm
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Subject: Re: time measurement foolishness
From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:16:00 GMT
Ian Robert Walker  wrote:
>Don Engdahl  writes
>>We need metric time!
>Since there are 86400 seconds in a mean day do we:
>  A. Change the Earth's spin to make this an integer power of 10. [1]
>  B. Redefine the second as a mean day divided by an integer power of 10. [2]
>Unless we do one or the other time can not be truly metric.
>1. This has certain practical difficulties.
>2. This would necessitate redefining many physical constants. [3]
>3. Given the nature of physicists option A might be easier.
Time is metric.  The unit is a second and its definition has nothing to
do with the rotation of the earth.  There are microseconds and
megaseconds etc.
There is no reason why the earth's rotation has to come out to a power
of 10.  If you start with this attitude you will start wanting 10 day
weeks and 10 week months and 10 month years.  I am absolutely against
having the earth moved to nearly double its present distance from the
sun as we will all freeze and there will be no-one left to wind the
clocks anyway.
-- Ray Tomes -- rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz -- Harmonics Theory --
http://www.vive.com/connect/universe/rt-home.htm
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Subject: Re: The Physics of Absolute Motion
From: devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 23:39:07 GMT
Brian D. Jones (bjon@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher) wrote [in part]:
: >>Why not simply say that each observer uses clocks that are set
: >>out-of-true in proportion to his absolute speed ?
: >In that case you are implicitly defining the rod's rest frame
: >as "absolute". This serves no useful purpose.
: It serves the very useful  purpose of telling the truth.
Why are you defininf the truth as that which can have no useful properties?
--
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
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A pocket full of positrons,|   But he certainly took us by surprise!"
A fission, a fusion,       +--------------------------------------------------
We all fall down!          |  "Was anybody in the Maquis working for me?"
---------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
"I'd cut down ever Law in England to get at the Devil!"
"And what man could stand up in the wind that would blow once you'd cut 
down all the laws?"
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Subject: Re: ARROW OF TIME
From: "Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D."
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:53:21 -0800
Lawrence B. Crowell wrote:
> 
> At this point it is really just a little issue with linear algebra.  Given
> any vector v and a scalar a then one can multiply a with v.  So then let
> 
> u = av
> 
> Similarly let
> 
> w = bv.
> 
> Now u + w = av + bv = (a + b)v.  Now if a = 0 the u + w = (0 + b)v = bv.
> So since our states |n> are vectors and you have defined a|0> = 0|-1> =
> |void> then this is equivalent to saying that 0v = v'.  This would mean
> that
> 
> 0v + bv = v' + bv.  Yet it is then apparent that v' = 0.
> 
Right. I suppose the only way to create the vacuum |0> from ZERO i.e.,
what I have been calling the "VOID" is with something infinite. But
wait, there is still something interesting here.
a|0> = 0 i.e., the usual a, boson or fermion, of second quantization
destroys its associated vacuum mode |0> to a real zero as you show
above. What is the relation of a annihilation to its Hermitian conjugate
a* creation incompatible (complementary) partner? In almost all cases
but this one we can think of a* as a time reversal of a. Thus if I
destroy a quantum forward in time, run the film backwards and I have
created that same quantum backwards in time! But this fails for the
vacuum. Clearly, the a* cannot create the vacuum from the void even
though it's conjugate partner merrily can annihilate that vacuum into
the void! Therefore, we have an ARROW OF TIME implicit in the standard
algebra of second quantization which I have never seen mentioned before
in any text book or lectures I attended in graduate school. There is a
real assymetry between a and a* that seems to give a direction to time -
breaking the time-reversal symmetry in a really fundamental way. I
started out sleep-walking here trying to keep the symmetry and as you
point out above that is impossible. That is, it is the VOID that causes
the arrow of time. We can condemn structures to the VOID of no return,
to wax poetic :-), but, like Orpheous vaninly trying to rescue Eurydice
we cannot return from the VOID. Something to nothing, but not nothing to
something without the MIRACLE of God's Infinite Love which breaks our
cute little a, a* algorithm and gives new meaning, perhaps, to Penrose's
claim that "understanding" surpasses all finite algorithms giving us a
little touch of infinite Divinity. :-)
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Subject: Re: Time & space, still (was: Hermeneutics ...)
From: cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:03:47 GMT
moggin@mindspring.com (moggin) wrote:
>moggin@mindspring.com (moggin)
>>>   It's pointless because you don't want to converse.  And I won't
>>>insist that you do.  You've got my answers,  if you want to reply;
>>>if you don't, that's fine, too -- I didn't expect much, in any case.
>cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter)
>>Notably absent among the flurry of postings, quoted repostings, and
>>posturings were any direct answer to the question mati asked, neither
>>"yes" nor "no" nor even "I haven't the foggiest and don't give a
>>shit".   How utterly quaint.
>   I gave several direct answers, including "It's irrelevant," which
>has "I don't give a shit" as a corrolary.  My offer to Mati applies to
>you, too -- if you want to reply, I'll be glad to hear from you.   And
>if you want to comment from the peanut gallery, then I offer you
>congratulations on a job well done.
Well, that's fair enough.  "It's irrelevant and I don't mean to
answer" is an answer of sorts.  But, you see, you didn't actually say
that.  Your "answers" may well have implied that (in your opinion) but
such is by no means obvious nor is it in any way direct and to the
point.
Since Mati's question reflects a key point in his argument you are, in
effect, saying that his entire argument is irrelevant, that it should
not even be considered, and that only that which you wish to say
should be considered and that only on your terms a position which
does, indeed, make discourse quite pointless.
Richard Harter, cri@tiac.net, The Concord Research Institute
URL = http://www.tiac.net/users/cri, phone = 1-508-369-3911
Life is tough. The other day I was pulled over for doing trochee's
in an iambic pentameter zone and they revoked my poetic license.
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Subject: Re: how strong can permanent magnets get?
From: Alan \"Uncle Al\" Schwartz
Date: 27 Nov 1996 00:11:31 GMT
jelemans@aurora.net (John Elemans) wrote:
>What is the maximum strength achieved with permanent magnets? 
>Are efforts being made to improve on this limit? How would that
>be done?
The obvious maximum magnetism is the alignment of all the relevant spins 
in the solid.  The lower the equivalent weight of the unit cell, the more 
spins/unit cell, and the denser the solid the more flux you might get.
"Physics Today" has had articles on improvements in magnet formulation.
I have a pair of iron-neodymium-boron magnets.  The things are dangerous.
-- 
Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz
UncleAl0@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @)
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal.htm
 (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children, Democrats, and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"  The Net!
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: zeleny@oak.math.ucla.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 00:26:47 GMT
rafael cardenas huitlodayo writes:
>Michael Zeleny wrote:
>>rafael cardenas huitlodayo writes:
>>>Silke-Maria Weineck wrote:
>>>>Who's arguing from authority now... I'm reasonably conversant with this
>>>>stuff, and you haven't answered my questions. The value "of truth" isn't
>>>>even touched by these theories; even if _some_ truth-finding is
>>>>_conducive_ to survival, that doesn't mean "the value of truth is
>>>>implicit in our best biological theories."
>>>Surely _if_ we treat the organism as an entity capable of making
>>>decisions and
>>>seeking goals, and we assert that its 'goal' is (or appears to be)
>>>'survival', then on a standard sub-Aristotelian teleological ground the
>>>value to it of 'truth', i.e. a correct appreciation of its environment
>>>which enables it
>>>to avoid mistakes, is indisputable. As g*rd*n pointed out much more
>>>succinctly in
>>>a parallel thread.
>>>
>>>The problem, however, is how a science which in some form admits only
>>>efficient
>>>causes (e.g. physics since the 17th century) can establish the
>>>reality of final causes. We can say that the organism functions 'as if'
>>>it seeks
>>>goals, but that is only one step removed from saying that the
>>>evolutionary process,
>>> or inanimate systems and bodies, function 'as if' they seek goals,
>>>which both biology
>>>and physics deny.
>>Not really.  Monod's book on chance and necessity is most typical of
>>biological acknowledgment of apparent final causality, which has been
>>since vulgarized in the pop genre by Dawkins et alii.
>Assuming that 'Not really' refers to 'which both biology and physics
>deny',
>it doesn't cover the point: Dawkins illustrates very clearly the
>dichotomy
>above, since he attributes final causation to the 'gene', but not to the
>evolutionary process (e.g. 'climbing mt. improbable'.) But if we deny
>one,
>how can we accept the other? And if we accept final causation for
>physical
>objects, what price traditional scientific methodology?
You are oscillating between appearances of final causality and the
real thing in a most disconcerting fashion.  Monod acknowledges the
"teleonomic" appearances without postulating full-blooded teleology.
The gravamen between the proponents of "the anthropic cosmological
principle" and its detractors is the selfsame difference between
apparent and real design.  And naturalistic analysis of functions and
goals as determined by evolutionary processes falls under the former
rubric.
>>>>Vlastos is hardly the last word on Socrates... it's on the same level
>>>>as Nehamas on Nietzsche. In any case, you have, once again, failed to
>>>>address the question: how can you argue to have access to Socrates 
>>>>"the historical person" as opposed to Socrates as presented by Plato 
>>>>or Xenophon?
>>>He can't be _certain_, can he?
>>As Descartes noted, I can be certain morally, if not metaphysically --
>>just as I am certain about external reality and other minds.
>Doesn't follow at all in the case of critical argument about the texts of
>P. It takes as given the traditional view that Plato starts as reporter and
>ends as inventor of his Socrates: but if he is prepared to invent, how can we
>be sure that we are not dealing simply with 2 or more kinds of invention, and
>no reliable reportage? 
By comparing his account to those due to independent sources.
>(It would not surprise me to discover that critical ordering of the texts of 
>P. sometimes assumes the hypothesis that it sets out to prove: the same 
>problem arises in the typology of many other kinds of artifact. Has anyone
>subjected the dialogues to e.g. cluster analysis or correspondence analysis?).
Only for the past 134 years.  The stylometry and chronology chapter
of the Cambridge Companion to Plato is good on this subject.
Cordially, - Mikhail | God: "Sum id quod sum." Descartes: "Cogito ergo sum."
Zeleny@math.ucla.edu | Popeye:   "Sum id quod sum et id totum est quod sum."
itinerant philosopher -- will think for food  ** www.ptyx.com ** MZ@ptyx.com 
ptyx ** 6869 Pacific View Drive, LA, CA 90068 ** 213-876-8234/874-4745 (fax)
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:50:30 GMT
Jeff Inman includes:
     You won't like it, but here goes.  One possible kind of
     ethics would suggest that preserving sick and injured people
     with technology is ultimately enervating.
I interpret "enervating" as referring to weakening the average health
and strength of the members of society.
Inman's isn't an ethical statement, it is a scientific statement that
might be true or false.  It is part of the scientific question whether
it is a a little bit enervating or a lot.
If you start with an ethical statement that it is wrong to let society
be enervated, and you believe Inman's statement, then you can infer
that it is wrong to preserve sick and injured people.  This last is
another ethical statement.
This is what I meant when I said that with one ought and a lot of ises
you could get more oughts.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
During the last years of the Second Millenium, the Earthmen complained
a lot.
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Subject: Re: Universal Coordinate System
From: Ian Robert Walker
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:29:50 +0000
In article <57etlc$dq9@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, Allen Meisner
 writes
>    Here is a thought experiment that decides the matter once and for
>all. You are in a spaceship traveling at 1000 meters per second. There
>is a laser in the nose of the ship that is pointed in the direction
>perpendicular to the direction of travel. The laser operates in the
>pulse mode. At time t=0 that laser begins emitting pulses and the
>thrusters are turned on giving the ship a 10 meter per second squared
>acceleration. After 1000 seconds, the ship has traveled 6,000,000
>meters. Will the first pulse still be aligned with the nose? 
No.
>If you say
>yes, you must account for the horizontal component of the light by
>inertia. 
I do not see how the presence, or absence of inertia can impose a 
sideways velocity on the light after it has left the emitter. This can 
no more happen with light than with a ball left behind when the ship 
begins to move.
>If this is true, all the laws of electromagnetism must be
>revised to take this inertia into account. 
EM already takes account of the inertia of light, see photon pressure.
>If you say that special
>relativity does not apply to accelerated frames, then special
>relativity is wrong, or deficient, isn't it? 
No, no more than claiming Ohms law to be wrong or deficient because it 
does not work with a non-linear resistance.
>Velocity is merely the
>first derivative of acceleration. If you see the light curve back under
>acceleration, you would then see the light go diagonally back in a
>straight line under constant velocity. This is first year calculus.
Do you mean the line produced by connecting the individual pulses, or
the line representing the track of one of the pulses. I will presume the
former. (My calculus was a long time ago.)
I agree that your discription is valid, but do not see where it is
leading. Whether we have absolute or relative motion the two lines will
be either a curve or a straight diagonal.
Consider instead of sending the pulses out into infinity we reflect them 
back from a mirror fixed to the space ship and note if they return to 
the same point. When the ship is accelerating they will not, when it is 
travelling at a constant velocity they will. I think that this effect is 
used to advantage in the Sagnac compass.
-- 
Ian G8ILZ                   on packet as G8ILZ @ GB7SRC
I have an IQ of 6 million,  |  How will it end?  | Mostly
or was it 6?                |  In fire.          | harmless
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria Weineck)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:09:09 GMT
rafael cardenas (raf379@bloxwich.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Silke-Maria Weineck wrote:
: > 
: > rafael cardenas (raf379@bloxwich.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: > : Silke-Maria Weineck wrote:
: > : > Who's arguing from authority now... I'm reasonably conversant with this
: > : > stuff, and you haven't answered my questions. The value "of truth" isn't
: > : > even touched by these theories; even if _some_ truth-finding is
: > : > _conducive_ to survival, that doesn't mean "the value of truth is
: > : > implicit in our best biological theories."
: > 
: > : Surely _if_ we treat the organism as an entity capable of making
: > : decisions and
: > : seeking goals, and we assert that its 'goal' is (or appears to be)
: > : 'survival', then on a standard sub-Aristotelian teleological ground the
: > : value to it of 'truth', i.e. a correct appreciation of its environment
: > : which enables it
: > : to avoid mistakes, is indisputable. As g*rd*n pointed out much more
: > : succinctly in
: > : a parallel thread.
: > 
: > Lots of ifs, Rafael. Even Dawkins says it's nonsense to assume that the
: > same organism that makes decisions would be the one seeking survival. Not
: > to speak of truths not conducive to survival.
: The point, rather, is that ignorance or false perception in relation to
: the organism's environment is at best neutral for it, whereas truth is
: at worst neutral for it. Thus truth has value to the organism.
: To demonstrate that truth had no value to the
: organism, you would need to show a) that some truths were necessarily
: _damaging_ to the organism's survival, and b) that the number and
: incidence
: of such truths exceeded the number and incidence of cases of
: ignorance/error in
: which it would have been better for the organism to possess correct
: awareness.
No, the point rather is that none of these speculations will lead you to 
the morally good; unless you want to assign moral goodness to the mating 
dances of mosquitoes. Once we are in a framework where every action is 
determined by considerations of survival, we are in a framework that 
doesn't admit of the opposition of good and evil. 
The question of whether knowledge of truth can be harmful is a side-show, 
even though an interesting one. You could certainly argue that knowledge 
of truth can be harmful to the species which would include the organism 
that has or produces this knowledge; for trivial instance, the truth about 
how to make nuclear bombs; some brand of social darwinism argues that 
truths established by medicine weaken the species; Nietzsche argues that 
too much knowledge of history is debilitating; pessimists like moggin 
will argue that knowledge of the truth leaves you with very few options 
besides suicide (not conducive to the organism's survival), etc. etc.
As I said, a side-show. 
Silke
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Subject: Re: Creation VS Evolution
From: oscar@ultra.net.au (Oscar)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:13:15 GMT
Mark & Susan Sampson  wrote:
>Who cares how God created the universe???  All that matters is that he
>did.  However he accomplished it, is beyond my need to know.  He did
>that is all that matters.
I agree
Oscar
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:21:16 GMT
meron@cars3.uchicago.edu writes:
>jti@santafe.edu (Jeff Inman) writes:
>>But I have been wondering, perhaps slightly changing the focus,
>>whether even calling something "knowledge" isn't already putting a
>>value on it.  A more primitive kind of value.
>
>Does calling a certain yellow metal "gold" amounts to putting a value 
>on it?  How about changing the name to "Aurum", or "Zahav" or "Zloto"?
Try shouting "Zloto!", as you stand at the sluice with your cuffs
rolled, and your whiskers long, and nobody will pay much attention.
My point was that "knowledge", what most folks mean by that word, is
already something "valuable".  Nor was I saying that this was foolish
of those folks.  Just observing.
-- 
"What's a mook?"
"A mook, what's a mook?"
"I don't know."
"What's a mook?"
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 02:02:32 GMT
"Michael S. Morris"  writes:
>If you, for instance, come up with a political philosophy with
>tenets different from liberalism, then again, my response is to
>ask you to show me first how it doesn't lead to the concentration of
>power into the hands of a few who will do harm with it.
But do you see that this measure of political systems is biased toward
a particular set of values?  In this particular sub-thread, we [y'all]
are talking about scientifically validating value systems.
How can *science* possibly object to the complaint that your term of
"harm" is not strictly neccessary.  It might well be judged by someone
(I didn't say by me) that concentration of power is a wonderful thing
and the fact that some are harmed by this is uninteresting.  Someone
might say: there is no logical inconsistency in the belief that a
powerful, magnanamous, and charismatic monarchy is the best form of
government.  How do you respond?
>As one open to armchair imagination, I'm capable of seeing
>that there could be alternative postulates. I just don't know of
>any that lead to anything worth looking at. 
I am surprised that you are missing the point.  You are attempting to
measure the merits of alternative systems of values, using your own
values.  That isn't the experiment being proposed.  The experiment is
to see whether it is pure science that you use to support those
values.  "Worth looking at" needn't be measured by whether the
airplane flies, in the context being proposed.  Similarly, "worthy"
political systems needn't be evaluated by the standards of classical
liberalism, unless you can somehow prove that this is an objective
standard.
If you propose to set up some alternative system and see whether it
collapses, that is already presuming that "collapse" somehow
invalidates a system.  In other words, such a test presumes that
"utility" is an absolute value.
The folks arguing against this as a strict necessity are not proposing
that such values are worthless, but merely that they are unscientific.
The best rejoinder, which would have to be made ironically, is that
everything that proves effective is indeed established as valuable
through science.  The irony is that this is only true, de facto (if
I've got my little latinisms in the right order); science inherently
values utility.
>Now it may be
>that I think this just because I am ignorant of fruitful
>alternative developments. 
See?  Here we go again.  Define "fruitful"?
[...]
> experimentally actual. So, I doubt (where 
>I suspect Mikhail denies) there is anything "arbitrary" at 
>all. 
"Arbitrary", in this sub-thread, has a special meaning.  (Not a
mysterious meaning cooked up for rhetoric, but a special context.)
How would science validate the value of "utility"?  In that sense,
utility is an arbitrary value.  It doesn't mean that you could just as
well love your kids as not.  Given our nature, and/or biology, and
whatever else you want to apply, certain kinds of values are indeed
*necessary*.  But they are arbitrary in "scientific" terms.  Kant
failed to ground morality with reason.
>That is, to grant "arbitrary" is already to grant the
>relativist side half of the battle. Something here along the lines
>of Einstein's quote to the effect that he doubted God had *any*
>choice in the world.
Perhaps I have cleared up what was meant by "arbitrary", in this
sub-thread.
-- 
"What's a mook?"
"A mook, what's a mook?"
"I don't know."
"What's a mook?"
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Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 01:17:33 GMT
Before this goes too far afield, I note that my point in bringing up
Malthus was not to make an "anti-science" statement.  At all.
Instead, I was trying to illustrate just how different a science could
be.  The difference here seems to me to reflect a different set of
values.  The larger point then, was that even "science" itself may be
defined among several different varieties of "scientific values"
candy@mildred.ph.utexas.edu (Jeff Candy) writes:
>Question for Jeff Inman:
>
>Since the earth has a finite capacity to produce food, there is clearly 
>a "hard limit" with respect to population -- despite that repeated warning 
>from dogmatic libertarians that "population is not a problem".  Can you 
>identify, roughly, the number of years as a function of the average growth 
>rate (a la Malthus) which humans can continue to live on earth without 
>reaching this hard limit.  The dependence is logarithmic in most relevant 
>parameters, so an order-of-magnitude estimate is fine.  The next step 
>is to see if this has anything to do with reality ...
I don't have the background, or the data, to try and define this
precisely, and anyhow, I think the suggestion of such a calculation
misses the point.
If one were to attempt it, here might be some of the factors to consider:
(1) At what point will some minor disturbance cause a significant
failure in our increasingly brittle, extended, and complex global
infrastructure?  There might be some epistemological problems there.
It could be the dwindling of some key species, which supports some
significant part of our food chain.  It could be some smallish
purturbation in the increasingly brittle weather system (for example.
I suppose the fact of this situation might be disputed) -- a couple of
years of drought in the wheat and corn producing regions.  It could be
some political disturbance .. which brings me to:
(2) How much are various people going to be willing to compromise
themselves in the name of peace?  Would you be willing to live in a
tiny cubicle, eating hydroponically grown food, stuffed full of drugs
to combat various food-born infections, etc?  What if the bill of
rights is just too destabilizing, in a delicate system?  What if it
were proved to you that your food supply required the devastation of a
habitat that sustained some foreign people, who were poltically
insignificant?
These are the kinds of choices that I forsee facing humans.  I doubt
if science is qualified to make judgements about these things other
than to offer suggestions as to how the system might still absorb more
pressure.
But, more interestingly, the Malthusian dilemma points to an
interesting fundamental dilemma in the values of life.  It suggests
that life is actually at odds with itself, which though we have
accepted in terms of Darwinian theory, we have yet to sublimate into
our science.
>Consider not the demand for food but the demand for energy.  Without 
>fission breeder or fusion reactors, will a "hard limit" in energy or 
>food demands be reached first (based on say US per capita energy 
>consumption)?  
Not particularly relevant to my general point.  But: I don't know.
There're costs.
>Finally, with regard to Michael Kagalenko's comment 
>regarding fertility (birth rate), what are the population saturations 
>mechanisms which will likely be active in the 21st century?  Facts 
>please, or at least non-trivial models (no Verhulst or Ricker toy 
>models).
K's point about prosperity bringing down birthrate ignores the fact
that resource consumption is not localized within those countries that
appear "stable" and self-sustaining.  If resources are being consumed
(or compromised) over increasingly non-local areas, then the
"stability" is an illusion.  Darwin's ideas, for example, implicitly
assume that this must be happening.  If not, anyhow, a world without
evolution would be a strange salvation.
-- 
"What's a mook?"
"A mook, what's a mook?"
"I don't know."
"What's a mook?"
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Subject: Re: Clifford Algebra, quaternions; Witten's Large N expansion
From: Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 23:39:22 GMT
In article <57dbsf$ud4@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes:
>   This is something for me to explore, for our observable universe is
> the internal parts of the 5f6 and so these gamma matrices must be a
> exploratory route 
I should have said "our observable universe is the 5f6 of 231Pu" , and
whether these gamma matrices of Clifford Algebras are rich enough to
yield fruit is another matter.
**** some more Notes for today ****
Schroedinger Equation was okay for orbital angular momentum but did not
have spin so had to introduce spin into the S.E. There were many
experiments for which the Schroedinger Equation was inadequate, namely
the Zeeman effect with sodium. S.E. treats the particle as a point.
Then Pauli patched the S.E. and we have the Pauli Equation. P.E. is
halfway between the S.E. and the Dirac Equation.
Dirac Equation gives internal parts to particles. D.E. gives particle
and its antiparticle.
 I am not sure as of this writing whether the photon is described by
the D.E. Dirac Equation was meant for fermions which includes neutrinos
with mass generally accepted as zero, and thus only half of the D.E. is
utilized when mass equals zero.
 At this moment of time I am investigating the Clifford Algebras ,
hoping to spot something in the Clifford Algebras which will shed light
on my old quest of a photon being composed of 2 neutrinos. That D.E.
requires Clifford Algebra and whether these Algebras are rich enough to
shed light on the internal parts of the photon.
  Maxwell died of TB at a young age, and as of this moment I am 46 and
James died at age 48, certainly not a long life. Maxwell liked
quaternions and wrote his equations in quaternions.
      Real coefficients
      Complex coefficients
  From my view at this moment is that the Clifford Algebras does not
shed light on the problem of  1 photon = 2 neutrinos and that something
more needs be seen for Clifford Algebras-- a geometry instead of
algebra.
  I will resume these researches perhaps next year in 1997.
**** end of more Notes ****
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Subject: Time Space
From: User
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:52:44 -0800
I am doing a reasearch paper, and my topic is on time space, if it can
be manipulated and what exacttly it consists of, I don't know what
branch of science it applies to or anything about it. So can you please
email me at amonra@pacbell.net with a little info to this regard, or
where to find some info.
Thank You
AmonRa
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Subject: Re: faster than light travel
From: "E. Converse"
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:51:02 -0800
> I think it is possible for a particle to get a higher speed than light.
> But we need to wait at least a few decades before the beginning of the
> proof.  I mean in few decades, some scientists will see particles moving
> with a velocity higher than C.
	Let us first look at what we do know.  We do know that when
particles are sped up to near the speed of light in a linear accelerator they 
seem to gain mass, so it takes a lot of energy to keep pushing them up to
higher and higher speeds relative to us.  So in these circumstances it
would seem that you can not make the particle move faster than the
speed of light relative to you.  
	Now if we look at these circumstances from the particles point of
view we see a completely different picture.  To the particle what is
actually happening is that its aging proccess is slowing down and the
linear accelerator's aging proccess is speeding up.  In other words time
is slowing down for the particle and speeding up for the linear
accelerator.  This makes it harder to increase the velocity of the
particle because we are pushing something that is slowing down in time the
more we push it, approaching a relative speed of c.     
Return to Top
Subject: Re: freedom of privacy & thoughts
From: caesar@copland.udel.edu (Johnny Chien-Min Yu)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 19:58:09 -0500
"Harold lines"  wrote:
>
> Yu  wrote in article
>> Why the operators can remotely use the invisible wave weapon to 
>> manipulate people's lives at home and attack peopple in any place? 
................
>By the way, the HAARP experiment cannot possibly cause any effects 
>in any area other than locally in Alaska.
Before open your mouth, please read my article clearly!
I only use the device patent which is reported in the book, _ANGEL DON'T
PLAY THE HAARP_, to prove that the device is extiance.
While a device is existance, it means that it can be used in everythere.
Your words only shows readers that either you didn't read my article 
carefully or you are trying to misleading.
>Do some reading and research before you post your garbage.  
Do some reading and learn to read carefully before you post your garbage
(ill-informed opinion).
>Better yet,don't post your garbage in alt.law-enforcement ever again.
>
If your garbag reply is in this group, I should post my respond on it 
to let you learn something!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  Alan Yu
  The first objective of mind control organization is to manipulate 
  people's lives in order to eliminate their opponents or enemies 
  secretly (die as if natural cause).  
  The mind (machine) control system is the national security system of 
  Taiwan from late of 1970s and should be the same in US or lots free 
  countries.
  Accusing other as insane without evidence is the "trademark" of mind
  control organization.
  (If any law enforcement officer declare anyone as "insane" and 
   the social security department do not put these individual in the 
   welfare program as diable person, then it only represent a kind of
   political suppression or false accusation to discredit someone.
   That' because the local law enforcement is the basic unit of mind
   control)
  The shorter the lie is, the better it is.  So, the liar can avoid
  inconsistency and mistakes that other people can catch.
  Only the truth will triumph over deception and last forever.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Subject: This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics (Week 95)
From: baez@math.ucr.edu (John Baez)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 18:47:07 -0800
This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics - Week 95
John Baez
Last week I talked about asymptotic freedom --- how the "strong" force 
gets weak at high energies.   Basically, I was trying to describe an 
aspect of "renormalization" without getting too technical about it.  
By coincidence, I recently got my hands on a book I'd been meaning 
to read for quite a while:
1) Laurie M. Brown, ed., "Renormalization: From Lorentz
to Landau (and Beyond)", Springer-Verlag, New York, 1993.
ISBN 0-387-97933-6, ISBN 3-540-97933-6.  
It's a nice survey of how attitudes to renormalization have changed 
over the years.  It's probably the most fun to read if you know some 
quantum field theory, but it's not terribly technical, and it includes 
a "Tutorial on infinities in QED", by Robert Mills, that might serve 
as an introduction to renormalization for folks who've never studied 
it.
Okay, on to some new stuff....  
It's a bit funny how one of the most curious features of bosonic 
string theory in 26 dimensions was anticipated by the number theorist 
Edouard Lucas in 1875.  I assume this is the same Lucas who is famous 
for the Lucas numbers: 1,3,4,7,11,18,..., each one being the sum of 
the previous two, after starting off with 1 and 3.  They are not 
quite as wonderful as the Fibonacci numbers, but in a study of pine 
cones it was found that while *most* cones have consecutive Fibonacci 
numbers of spirals going around clockwise and counterclockwise, a 
small minority of deviant cones use Lucas numbers instead.  
Anyway, Lucas must have liked playing around with numbers, because 
in one publication he challenged his readers to prove that: "A square 
pyramid of cannon balls contains a square number of cannon balls only
when it has 24 cannon balls along its base".  In other words, the 
only integer solution of
           1^2 + 2^2 + ... + n^2 = m^2,
is the solution n = 24, not counting silly solutions like n = 0 and
n = 1.
It seems the Lucas didn't have a proof of this; the first proof is
due to G. N. Watson in 1918, using hyperelliptic functions.   
Apparently an elementary proof appears in the following ridiculously 
overpriced book:
2) W. S. Anglin, "The Queen of Mathematics: An Introduction to
Number Theory", Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1995.  ISBN 0-7923-3287-3.
For more historical details, see the review in 
3) Jet Wimp, Eight recent mathematical books, Math. Intelligencer
18 (1996) 72-79,
Unfortunately, I haven't seen these proofs of Lucas' claim, so I don`t
know why it's true.  I do know a little about its relation to 
string theory, so I'll talk about that.  
There are two main flavors of string theory, "bosonic" and
"supersymmetric".  The first is, true to its name, just the quantized,
special-relativistic theory of little loops made of some abstract 
string stuff that has a certain tension --- the "string tension".  
Classically this theory would make sense in any dimension, but 
quantum-mechanically, for reasons that I want to explain *someday* 
but not now, this theory works best in 26 dimensions.   Different 
modes of vibration of the string correspond to different particles, 
but the theory is called "bosonic" because these particles are all 
bosons.  That's no good for a realistic theory of physics, because
the real world has lots of fermions, too.  (For a bit about 
bosons and fermions in particle physics, see "week93".)  
For a more realistic theory people use "supersymmetric" string
theory.  The idea here is to let the string be a bit more abstract:
it vibrates in "superspace", which has in addition to the usual
coordinates some extra "fermionic" coordinates.  I don't want to
get too technical here, but the basic idea is that while the usual
coordinates commute as usual:
x_i x_j = x_j x_i
the fermionic coordinates "anticommute"
y_i y_j = - y_j y_i
while the bosonic coordinates commute with fermionic ones:
x_i y_j = y_j x_i 
If you've studied bosons and fermions this will be sort of
familiar; all the differences between them arise from the difference 
between commuting and anticommuting variables.  For a little glimpse
of this subject try:
4) John Baez, Spin and the harmonic oscillator, 
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/harmonic.html
As it so happens, supersymmetric string theory --- often abbreviated
to "superstring theory" --- works best in 10 dimensions.  There are 
five main versions of superstring theory, which I described in 
"week74".  The type I string theory involves open strings --- little
segments rather than loops.  The type IIA and type IIB theories
involve closed strings, that is, loops.   But the most popular sort
of superstring theories are the "heterotic strings".  A nice 
introduction to these, written by one of their discoverers, is:
5) David J. Gross, The heterotic string, in "Workshop on Unified 
String Theories", eds. M. Green and D. Gross, World Scientific, 
Singapore, 1986, pp. 357-399.  
These theories involve closed strings, but the odd thing about 
them, which accounts for the name "heterotic", is that vibrations 
of the string going around one way are supersymmetric and act as 
if they were in 10 dimensions, while the vibrations going around
the other way are bosonic and act as if they were in 26 dimensions!
To get this string with a split personality to make sense, people 
cleverly think of the 26 dimensional spacetime for the bosonic part 
as a 10-dimensional spacetime times a little 16-dimensional curled-up 
space, or "compact manifold".  To get the theory to work, it seems that
this compact manifold needs to be flat, which means it has to be a 
torus --- a 16-dimensional torus.  We can think of any such torus as
16-dimensional Euclidean space "modulo a lattice".  Remember, a lattice
in Euclidean space is something that looks sort of like this:
                  x
                      x
               x          x
                   x          x 
            x          x
                x          x
         x          x
             x          x
      x          x   
          x          x
              x 
                  x
Mathematically, it's just a discrete subset L of R^n (n-dimensional
Euclidean space, with its usual coordinates) with the property that 
if x and y lie in L, so does jx + ky for all integers j and k.  When 
we form n-dimensional Euclidean space "modulo a lattice", we decree 
two points x and y to be the same if x - y is in L.   For example, 
all the points labelled x in the figure above count as the same 
when we "mod out by the lattice"... so in this case, we get a 
2-dimensional torus.  
For more on 2-dimensional tori and their relation to complex analysis,
you can read "week13."  Here we are going to be macho and plunge right
into talking about lattices and tori in arbitrary dimensions.  
To get our 26-dimensional string theory to work out nicely when we
curl up 16-dimensional space to at 16-dimensional torus, it turns
out that we need the lattice L that we're modding out by to have some
nice properties.  First of all, it needs to be an "integral" lattice,
meaning that for any vectors x and y in L the dot product x.y must
be an integer.  This is no big deal --- there are gadzillions of
integral lattices.  In fact, sometimes when people say "lattice" they 
really mean "integral lattice".  What's more of a big deal is that 
L must be "even", that is, for any x in L the inner product x.x is 
even.  This implies that L is integral, by the identity
(x + y).(x + y) = x.x + 2x.y + y.y
But what's really a big deal is that L must also be "unimodular".
There are different ways to define this concept.  Perhaps the easiest 
to grok is that the volume of each lattice cell --- e.g., each 
parallelogram in the picture above --- is 1.  Another way to say it 
is this.  Take any basis of L, that is, a bunch of vectors in L
such that any vector in L can be uniquely expressed as an integer
linear combination of these vectors.  Then make a matrix with the 
components of these vectors as rows.  Then take its determinant.  
That should equal plus or minus 1.  Still another way to say it
is this.  We can define the "dual" of L, say L*, to be all the 
vectors x such that x.y is an integer for all y in L.  An integer
lattice is one that's contained in its dual, but L is unimodular if 
and only if L = L*.   So people also call unimodular lattices 
"self-dual".  It's a fun little exercise in linear algebra to show 
that all these definitions are equivalent.  
Why does L have to be an even unimodular lattice?  Well, one
can begin to understand this a litle by thinking about what a closed 
string vibrating in a torus is like.   If you've ever studied the 
quantum mechanics of a particle on a torus (e.g. a circle!) you may 
know that its momentum is quantized, and must be an element of L*.  So 
the momentum of the center of mass of the string lies in L*.  
On the other hand, the string can also wrap around the torus in 
various topologically different ways.  Since two points in Euclidean 
space correspond to the same point in the torus if they differ by a 
vector in L, if we imagine the string as living up in Euclidean space,
and trace our finger all around it, we don't necesarily come back to 
the same point in Euclidean space: the same point *plus* any vector
in L will do.  So the way the string wraps around the torus is 
described by a vector in L.  If you've heard of the "winding number",
this is just a generalization of that.  
So both L and L* are really important here (which has to do with
the fashionable subject of "string duality"), and a bunch 
more work shows that they *both* need to be even, which implies 
that L is even and unimodular.
Now something cool happens: even unimodular lattices are only 
possible in certain dimensions --- namely, dimensions divisible by 8.  
So we luck out, since we're in dimension 16.  
In dimension 8 there is only *one* even unimodular lattice (up to 
isometry), namely the wonderful lattice E8!   The easiest way to think 
about this lattice is as follows.  Say you are packing spheres in n 
dimensions in a checkerboard lattice --- in other words, you color
the cubes of an n-dimensional checkerboard alternately red and black,
and you put spheres centered at the center of every red cube, using
the biggest spheres that will fit.  There are some little hole left 
over where you could put smaller spheres if you wanted.  And as you 
go up to higher dimensions, these little holes gets bigger!  By the 
time you get up to dimension 8, there's enough room to put another 
sphere OF THE SAME SIZE AS THE REST in each hole!   If you do that, 
you get the lattice E8.  (I explained this and a bunch of other 
lattices in "week65", so more info take a look at that.)
In dimension 16 there are only *two* even unimodular lattices.  One
is E8 + E8.  A vector in this is just a pair of vectors in E8.  The
other is called D16*, which we get the same way as we got E8: we
take a checkerboard lattice in 16 dimensions and stick in extra spheres
in all the holes.  More mathematically, to get E8 or D16*, we take all 
vectors in R^8 or R^16, respectively, whose coordinates are either 
*all* integers or *all* half-integers, for which the coordinates add 
up to an even integer.  (A "half-integer" is an integer plus 1/2.)  
So E8 + E8 and D16* give us the two kinds of heterotic string 
theory!  They are often called the E8 + E8 and SO(32) heterotic
theories.  
In "week63" and "week64" I explained a bit about lattices and Lie
groups, and if you know about that stuff, I can explain why the
second sort of string theory is called "SO(32)".  Any compact
Lie group has a maximal torus, which we can think of as some Euclidean
space modulo a lattice.  There's a group called E8, described in
"week90", which gives us the E8 lattice this way, and the product
of two copies of this group gives us E8 + E8.  On the other hand, the 
group SO(32) gives us the D16* lattice --- or at least some very
related lattice; I always get confused about this point, and I'm too 
tired to figure it out now, but perhaps some kind reader will
confirm or correct me here.  In any event, it turns out that these
two versions of heterotic string theory act, at low energies, like
gauge field theories with gauge group E8 x E8 and SO(32), respectively!
People seem especially optimistic that the E8 x E8 theory is relevant 
to real-world particle physics; see for example:
6) Edward Witten, Unification in ten dimensions, in "Workshop on 
Unified String Theories", eds. M. Green and D. Gross, World Scientific,
Singapore, 1986, pp. 438-456.
Edward Witten, Topological tools in ten dimensional physics, with
an appendix by R. E. Stong, in "Workshop on Unified String Theories", 
eds. M. Green and D. Gross, World Scientific, Singapore, 1986, pp. 
400-437.
The first paper listed here is about particle physics; I mention 
the second here just because E8 fans should enjoy it --- it discusses
the classification of bundles with E8 as gauge group.
Anyway, what does all this have to do with Lucas and his stack
of cannon balls?
Well, in dimension 24, there are *24* even unimodular lattices,
which were classified by Niemeier.  A few of these are obvious, like 
E8 + E8 + E8 and E8 + D16*, but the coolest one is the "Leech 
lattice", which is the only one having no vectors of length 2.  
This is related to a whole WORLD of bizarre and perversely fascinating
mathematics, like the "Monster group", the largest finite simple 
group --- and also to string theory.  I said a bit about this stuff
in "week66", and I will say more in the future, but for now let
me just describe how to get the Leech lattice.
First of all, let's think about Lorentzian lattices, that is,
lattices in Minkowski spacetime instead of Euclidean space.  
The difference is just that now the dot product is defined by
(x_1,...,x_n) . (y_1,...,y_n) = - x_1 y_1 + x_2 y_2 + ... + x_n y_n
with the first coordinate representing time.  It turns out that
the only even unimodular Lorentzian lattices occur in dimensions
of the form 8k + 2.  There is only *one* in each of those dimensions,
and it is very easy to describe: it consists of all vectors whose
coordinates are either all integers or all half-integers, and whose
coordinates add up to an even number.  
Note that the dimensions of this form: 2, 10, 18, 26, etc., are 
precisely the dimensions I said were specially important in "week93" 
for some *other* string-theoretic reason.  Is this a "coincidence"?
Well, all I can say is that I don't understand it.
Anyway, the 10-dimensional even unimodular Lorentzian lattice
is pretty neat and has attracted some attention in string theory:
7) Reinhold W. Gebert and Hermann Nicolai, E10 for beginners,
preprint available as hep-th/9411188 
but the 26-dimensional one is even more neat.  In particular,
thanks to the cannonball trick of Lucas, the vector
               v = (70,0,1,2,3,4,...,24)
is "lightlike".  In other words, 
                    v.v = 0
What this implies is that if we let T be the set of all integer
multiples of v, and let S be the set of all vectors x in our lattice
with x.v = 0, then T is contained in S, and S/T is a 24-dimensional
lattice --- the Leech lattice!
Now *that* has all sorts of ramifications that I'm just barely 
beginning to understand.   For one, it means that if we do bosonic 
string theory in 26 dimensions on R^26 modulo the 26-dimensional even 
unimodular lattice, we get a theory having lots of symmetries related 
to those of the Leech lattice.  In some sense this is a "maximally 
symmetric" approach to 26-dimensional bosonic string theory:
8) Gregory Moore, Finite in all directions, preprint available
as hep-th/9305139.
Indeed, the Monster group is lurking around as a symmetry group here!
For a physics-flavored introduction to that aspect, try:
9) Reinhold W. Gebert, Introduction to vertex algebras,
Borcherds algebras, and the Monster Lie algebra, preprint 
available as hep-th/9308151
and for a detailed mathematical tour see:
10) Igor Frenkel, James Lepowsky, and Arne Meurman, "Vertex Operator 
Algebras and the Monster," Academic Press, 1988.  
Also try the very readable review articles by Richard Borcherds, who
came up with a lot of this business:
11) Richard Borcherds, Automorphic forms and Lie algebras.
Richard Borcherds, Sporadic groups and string theory.   
These and other papers available at 
http://www.pmms.cam.ac.uk/Staff/R.E.Borcherds.html 
Well, there is a lot more to say, but I need to go home and pack
for my Thanksgiving travels.  Some of you may have wondered what's
happened to the "Tale of n-categories".  I haven't forgotten that!
In fact, earlier this fall I finished writing a big fat paper on 
2-Hilbert spaces (which are to Hilbert spaces as categories are to
sets), and since then I have been struggling to finish another big
fat paper with James Dolan, on the general definition of "weak 
n-categories".  I want to talk about this sort of thing, and other
progress on n-categories and physics, but I've been so busy *working*
on it that I haven't had time to *chat* about it on This Week's Finds.
Maybe soon I'll find time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous issues of "This Week's Finds" and other expository articles on
mathematics and physics, as well as some of my research papers, can be
obtained by anonymous ftp from math.ucr.edu; they are in the
subdirectory pub/baez.  The README file lists the contents of all the
papers.  On the World-Wide Web, you can get these files by going to
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/
A complete index of the old issues of "This Week's Finds" is available
at
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/twf.html
but if you are cursed with a slow connection and just want a jumping-off
place to the olds issues, go to
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/twfshort.html
For the latest issue, go to
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/this.week.html
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: +@+.+ (G*rd*n)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 21:58:00 -0500
Silke-Maria Weineck wrote:
| ... 
| No, the point rather is that none of these speculations will lead you to 
| the morally good; unless you want to assign moral goodness to the mating 
| dances of mosquitoes.  
| ...
It is good, especially from the point of view of the
mosquitos.  Their genes abound in rhetorics of choice,
judgment, and purpose.
May not the mosquito be part of the same upwelling desire to
see and know that we, too, seem to re-present?  It seeks
true blood and we seek true gods.
If I may be so New-Agey this evening.
-- 
   }"{    G*rd*n   }"{  gcf @ panix.com  }"{
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 00:56:50 GMT
mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
: Jeff Inman (jti@santafe.santafe.edu) wrote:
: >mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
: >>Jeff Inman (jti@santafe.santafe.edu) wrote:
: >>> That said, I don't see that there is any "ethical price" particular to
: >>> alternative "sciences" which the scientific method can claim to be
: >>> above.
: >>
: >> There were many cases of children dying from diabetes because
: >> their Christian Science parents believed in faith healing and
: >> denied them insulin. Inman would have us to believe that
: >> there is nothing ethically wrong about the actions of those parents.
: >
: > In deference to your handicap, I'll explain what my statement implies.
: > It implies that there may be "ethical costs" associated with the
: > scientific method, though it skillfully leaves some room for
: > discussion, by remaining inconclusive.
: 
: Please, do explain to the unsophisticated simpleton such as
: myself, in what way medicine incurs "ethical costs" similar
: to the ones incurred by Christian science practiotioner.
You won't like it, but here goes.  One possible kind of ethics would
suggest that preserving sick and injured people with technology is
ultimately enervating.  Don't get your undies in a bunch: I'm not
claiming that this set of values is somehow superior, or right.
That's just the point.  Distinguishing between these sets of values is
not something that can be done with science.
However, it seems to me that science does operate on the premise of
certain kinds of values.  Utility, for example.  "Useless" knowledge
is uninteresting to scientists.  But who said that measuring "ethical
costs" must be done from within that system?
As someone else pointed out (something like), the glorious progress
and advance of human civilization hasn't done much to spare the
natural ecosystem that many of us love.  That'd be another example of
an "ethical cost".  [And would also be part of why I brought up
Malthus, as a kind of science with a different underlying premise.]
And, yes, I know that science *per se* is not the same as the
technology that it makes possible, but it surely must be relevant to
the existence of that technology, and can't claim absolute
unconsciousness.
: >> jti:
: >>>  I guess it
: >>>  just doesn't interest me whether you grant people "worthiness of
: >>>  soul", when you dismiss them anyway.  As you say, they may be worthy
: >>>  souls, but you aren't buying any trips on their airline.
: >>
: >> If Inman is consistent in this pont of view, and if he grants
: >> every person equal value, he then is obliged by logic to
: >> grant the request of anyone who, say, asks him to
: >> donate a large sum of money.
: >
: > Perhaps if you reread my statement, a laborious process no doubt, you
: > will see that you have misunderstood what I was saying.  Just perhaps.
: > I make the point inconclusively.
: 
: In other words, you retract from the high ethical ground you assumed
: before as soon as implications are pointed out to you.
First, what "high ethical ground"?
Second, what "retraction"?
The particular point I was making "inconclusively", in the latter
snippet, is that you might better understand what I was saying in the
earlier snippet, if you reread it.
-- 
"What's a mook?"
"A mook, what's a mook?"
"I don't know."
"What's a mook?"
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:15:27 GMT
In article <57g3ki$7f2@tierra.santafe.edu>, jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman) writes:
>
>However, it seems to me that science does operate on the premise of
>certain kinds of values.  Utility, for example.  "Useless" knowledge
>is uninteresting to scientists.  
Where did you take it from?  The whole history of science indicates 
otherwise.
Mati Meron			| "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu		|  chances are he is doing just the same"
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:21:13 GMT
In article <57g4rd$7lk@tierra.santafe.edu>, jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman) writes:
	... snip ...
>I don't have the background, or the data, to try and define this
>precisely, and anyhow, I think the suggestion of such a calculation
>misses the point.
>
>If one were to attempt it, here might be some of the factors to consider:
>
>(1) At what point will some minor disturbance cause a significant
>failure in our increasingly brittle, extended, and complex global
>infrastructure?  There might be some epistemological problems there.
>It could be the dwindling of some key species, which supports some
>significant part of our food chain.  It could be some smallish
>purturbation in the increasingly brittle weather system (for example.
>I suppose the fact of this situation might be disputed) -- a couple of
>years of drought in the wheat and corn producing regions.  It could be
>some political disturbance .. which brings me to:
>
>(2) How much are various people going to be willing to compromise
>themselves in the name of peace?  Would you be willing to live in a
>tiny cubicle, eating hydroponically grown food, stuffed full of drugs
>to combat various food-born infections, etc?  What if the bill of
>rights is just too destabilizing, in a delicate system?  What if it
>were proved to you that your food supply required the devastation of a
>habitat that sustained some foreign people, who were poltically
>insignificant?
>
>These are the kinds of choices that I forsee facing humans.  I doubt
>if science is qualified to make judgements about these things other
>than to offer suggestions as to how the system might still absorb more
>pressure.
Correct.  And I don't see it as the role of science to make these 
judgements.
Mati Meron			| "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu		|  chances are he is doing just the same"
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Can science provide value? (was: Where's the theory?)
From: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:13:19 GMT
In article <57g2me$7bj@tierra.santafe.edu>, jti@pajarito.santafe.edu (Jeff Inman) writes:
>meron@cars3.uchicago.edu writes:
>>jti@santafe.edu (Jeff Inman) writes:
>
>>>You didn't intend to, but I've suggested that it was implicit in
>>>what you said.
>>
>>Then You should've clearly indicate that said suggestion reflects your 
>>opinion and not necesserily what I said.
>
>Postmodern depths loom ahead!  What makes you think that you know what
>you meant better than I do?
>
:-)))))))))))))))))
>>> Mati, quoted from elsewhere:
>>>>  And if said difference gives rise to observable phenomena 
>>>>  then, sooner or later, they'll be observed and incorporated in the 
>>>>  scientific description.  And, if they've no observable consequences 
>>>>  then as far as you know they don't exist.
>>>
>>>My argument is that this is a naive statement, as there is no reason
>>>to expect that just because something is observable that it will be
>>>observed.
>>
>>Observable means affecting other things.  If it does, you'll notice 
>>it.  
>
>But, no.  This is not supportable.  You will only notice it if it
>affects things you notice.
>
>>Of course you can postulate something that , while in principle 
>>observable, will never be observed since the effects are too small.  
>
>That's not what I meant.
>
>>>I suggested, wise-guy style, that you had intended
>>>"quantifiable", rather than "observable".  
>>
>>Yeah, I know.  Than after substituting your own meaning for mine, you 
>>proceeded to argue with it.  What else is new.
>
>Nothing new, under the sun.  I think my critique of what you thought
>you meant is worth considering.  Of course, you don't have to agree.
If you consider substituting your words for mine, then arguing with 
the resulting statement, a critique, then there is nothing to agree 
to.
>
	... snip ...
>
>Mati:
>>I repeat, to avoid any misconceptions.  I specifically stated 
>>"observable" not "quantifiable".  For good reason, too.  And 
>>substituting a different word, with a different meaning, for what I 
>>said is something that can be excused only by the assumtion that you 
>>didn't realize what you're doing.  But that's besides the point.
>
>I realized what I was doing.  I was suggesting that what is knowable
>is partly limited by ones metaphysics.  We're about as far afield of
>the subject as I had hoped to get before having my point become clear.
>I was attempting to make an argument about value, and about what
>(modern) science does.
I believe that that is what you were attemting to do.  In the interest 
of intellectual honesty, though, there are things one shouldn't do.
>
>If science is constrained by its own process, and some approriate
>accompanying metaphysics, as I claim, then certain kinds of value will
>be propagated invisibly in its acts, (i.e. acts of theory and
>observation), and certain other kinds of acts will remain impossible.
And if not, then not.  I'm afraid that what you say doesn't convey 
much meaning.  As to what'll be possible and what'll remain impossible 
for science, that's for the future to tell.  Saying "I'm sure that 
there are acts which will remain impossible though I've no idea as to 
what they may be" is rather an empty statement.
>
>>So back to the point.  You may argue "but those things which are 
>>observable but not quantifiable, aren't amenable to scientific 
>>observation".  Right.  Who said that everything in the world is 
>>within the scope of science?  Is Vitali's Chaconne less beautiful 
>>because science cannot measure and quantify its beauty?
>
>I doubt it.  
>
Good, we seem to agree on something.
Mati Meron			| "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu		|  chances are he is doing just the same"
Return to Top
Subject: Abian vs Einstein
From: abian@iastate.edu (Alexander Abian)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 03:01:27 GMT
Dear Emma,
 I am sorry, I cannot repost my previous postings since I do not save them.
Moreover, I have several, several times explained how my concept of Time
differs from Einstein's or for that matter from that of the establishment.
 I am posting this and not e-mailing you, because at least 10 requests
similar to yours  were e-mailed to me. I have no TIME to answer individually.
 So, I will post again  the gist of  Abian  vs Einstein.
My ideas differs from that of Einstein, as far as the Concept
and Nature of Time are  concerned,
For Einstein, Time is what the dial of a watch indicates.
For me, Time is a manifestation of Mass, i.e., there is
an Equivalence of Mass and Time. For me, as everything else,
Time also has inertia  and has the tendency of maintaining
the present instant.  However, it moves and it moves at the 
expense of (perhaps irretrievably lost) Cosmic mass.
My formula of equivalence of Mass and Time which appears in my 
signature is a first attempt and is not perhaps very useful since
it involves the MASS OF THE ENTIRE COSMOS AND VARIATIONS OF THE
LATTER. 
 Again, I fundamentally differ with Einstein and thus do not consider
the Cosmos as being a four dimensional manifold,  considering  
Time on a par with a spatial coordinate.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
   ABIAN MASS-TIME EQUIVALENCE FORMULA  m = Mo(1-exp(T/(kT-Mo))) Abian units.
       ALTER EARTH'S ORBIT AND TILT - STOP GLOBAL DISASTERS  AND EPIDEMICS
       ALTER THE SOLAR SYSTEM.  REORBIT VENUS INTO A NEAR EARTH-LIKE ORBIT  
                     TO CREATE A BORN AGAIN EARTH (1990)
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Feynman Project 2
From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:16:03 GMT
"Jack Sarfatti, Ph.D."  wrote:
>... Wheeler told Feynman to
>figure out how much advanced and retarded waves are needed to get thye
>right answer for radiation resistance. Feynman told Merhra, �I found
>that you get the right answer if you use half-advanced and half-retarded
>[potentials] as the field generated by each charge. That is, one has to
>use the solution of Maxwell�s equations which is symmetrical in time and
>the reason why we got no advanced effects at a point close to the source
>in spite of the fact that the source was producing an advanced field is�
>that advanced waves from the future absorbers exactly cancel the
>advanced wave from the source on a test charge close to the source.
I look at things quite differently, but I believe that underneath it all
it is the same.
If you assume that an electron is a spherical standing wave of e/m then
it is necessarily composed of equal amounts of ingoing and outgoing
energy (at the compton wavelength of the electron).  Of course the
outgoing energy is just the incoming energy after it has passed through
the centre.
Doesn't this sound a lot like the above description?  The only
difference is that we don't have to talk about mysterious things like
back action as the incoming wave is always there.  We can just look at
it as normal events in normal time.
-- Ray Tomes -- rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz -- Harmonics Theory --
http://www.vive.com/connect/universe/rt-home.htm
Return to Top
Subject: Electric field spreads out then "collapses back"?
From: jjtom4@imap2.asu.edu
Date: 27 Nov 1996 03:55:01 GMT
	I have a book here that says that if a "charge is suddenly 
neutralized, the field that it created continues to spread outward, and 
then collapses back at some speed..."  The spreading out part I 
understand.  Why does the field "collapse back"?
	Thanks a million.
-John
Return to Top
Subject: Re: What is the Cause of Time Dilation?
From: tsar@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:52:41 -0800
Cees Roos wrote:
> In a theory describing the relative positions of dog parts there is no
> wagging, just relative positions. A system with the tail as a frame is
> equivalent to a system with the rest of the dog as frame.
>
Such a model could surely be sold to those women convinced that
men are led around by their penis. However, I assure you it matters
to the dog ... and probably most men, that the model is backwards.
> > However, the metaphysical positions are at odds with each other,
> > as are the idea that the Earth is at the center of the Universe
> > (due to God's will), and that the Earth is simply another satellite
> > of one of billions of primaries, in a universe with "infinite" size.
> 
> So you want to say that Copernicus is a better metaphysical theory than
> Ptolemy. I was discussing physics, not metaphysics.
>
It's all the same. You cannot have one without the other.
> [snip]
> > > Perfect example. Adding this turtle concept to the Egyptian model you mention
> > > would have altered nothing. Neither would the concept of kangeroos in Australia
> > > or the weight of the pyramids or the invariance of time have done, because these
> > > would have been redundant.
> >
> > The metaphysics is not redundant .... it's completely different.
> > And wrong.
> 
> I am not interested in metaphysics.
> 
Then you are not interested in reality.
>  > Neither does the concept of invariant time in an absolute frame add anything to
> > > SRT, because it is redundant.
> > >
> > > > There's no intent to "add" invariant time; only to be sure it
> > > > doesn't exist.
> > >
> > > As long as you consider the concept before there is empiric data it's just an
> > > idea. What would this idea add to SRT, which it does not have as it is? In
> > > other words, what makes you seriously consider it, and not discard it offhand
> > > as irrelevant?
> >
> > There's tons of empiric data that time is invariant ... mostly due to
> > measurement.
> 
> We disagree.
> 
> > Just as there's tons of empiric data that the Nile floods
> > when Sirius rises. The concept of time may or may not have some physical
> > reality beyond a separation of events. The only data to confirm that it
> > does is a product of modern physics. Since there's an ongoing exploration
> > to better understand the concept, it's best not to rule out rational
> 
> Nothing rational in the concept of invariant time. It's just fictional.
> 
Isn't that a pretty "absolute" statement? I didn't think you believed in
such certainty?
> 
> > possiblities prior to exclusive confirmation, and more certainty.
> > This says nothing about accepting the results and using the predictions.
> > Nor does it say anything about the current best model of what time is.
> 
> There is no model of what time is.
> 
That's simply your point of view. There are many. None confirmed 
.... "absolutely".
> >
> > > Do you have this urge to be sure it does not exist for any phantasy you have, or
> > > for this one only?
> > How did fantasies get into this?
> 
> The concept of a phenomenon for which there is no empiric data, and which does
> not add anything to the existing current model, is a phantasy.
> 
If there's no empiric data you should have no trouble demonstrating
variant time to most anybody. How would you go about this? Such that
every observer was absolutely convinced you're correct?
> > I could care less whether time is invariant
> > of variant. Whether SR is correct or incorrect. The issue is what model is
> > best and what degree of certainty you have that it is valid. And how you
> > arrive at that determination. Some things remain to be seen. I'm content
> > to wait and see them. But I'm not content to make a judgement prematurely.
> > If it isn't premature for you that's fine with me. I'm prepared to accept
> > the majority of things that scientists claim is the best concept of reality,
> > after all they're the experts, but there are certain things which have not
> > yet been determined which I'm not ready to agree will occur as predicted,
> > and I say must be empirically verified. Yes they will probably occur just
> > as the scientists say they will; but that's no reason to get pissed off
> > because someone says "if you don't mind I prefer you show me".
> 
> What gives you the impression that I am 'pissed off'?
> 
A general "you" ... not specifically you. See any Deven's post.
> > > > Speculation will provide the parameters of the test you formulate.
> > >
> > > Speculation is useful only if the subject of speculation would improve results.
> > > I fail to see what the concept of invariant time in a 'special' frame would
> > > contribute.
> > >
> >
> > Is this a semantics issue here? I use the word "speculate" in the sense of
> > determining the probablity of an event before it happens. Just as you can
> > speculate that the ball on the roulette wheel will most probably land on
> > red or black.
> 
> Wrong example. In the case of a roulette the ball is sure to land on red
> or black, because empiric data indicate that black and red exist. There
> is no indication that invariant time exists.
> 
What tells you black and red exist? This is a certainty you know. A
metaphysical one. I thought you weren't interested in metaphysics?
Besides, in your world of uncertainty why is the exception to the
rule your certainty in variant time?
It's still speculation ... see any dictionary.
> > The same for say SR. You can speculate that you'll observe
> > a particular result given a particular set of parameters in an experiment.
> 
> But after the experiment you'll know whether the prediction was correct.
> Every experiment so far failed to falsify the predictions.
> 
> > It might be something so trite that the certainty is utmost, or an area
> > (say attempting FTL) where certainty is not quite as good (IMO for the
> > purposes of the explanation). But it's still "speculation". If you have
> > a better word we can both accept please advance it.
> 
> Popper uses the word conjecture. However, conjectures should add to the
> existing theories. Invariant time would not add a thing, so I think I
> stick to "phantasy".
> 
I think you're stuck in a rut on this one. Conjecture and speculation
are synomous.
> > > > Your predicted outcome is speculation ... mathematically consistant
> > > > but speculation nonetheless.
> > >
> > > Founded on sound reasoning from a well established theory, not just phantasy>
> > Of course! Why you wish to draw an analogy to fantasy is beyond me.
> 
> Because it has no root in established theory.
> 
I find it hard to believe you've never heard of any "conjecture" regarding
the concept of time. And harder to believe everyone thinks any particular
model is the last and best word, and needs no further examination.
> > > > I remain convinced the planets move around the Sun.
> > >
> > > They do. They also move around the earth, in a slightly more complicated orbit.
> > >
> >
> > And the tail wags the dog.
> 
> No wagging involved, just relative motion.
> 
If you cut off the dog's tail do the tail and the dog each go their separate
ways? I'd think your "relative" frame would be pretty dull to calculate from
the viewpoint of the tail. If the earth explodes is the cosmos "significantly"
altered? Would the Zeta Reticulans be without astrogation?
There are reasons why "frames" and coordinates have origins ... and why
it's said the dog wags his tail ... not the other way around.
W$
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Harmonics Theory Basics 1
From: ale2@psu.edu (ale2)
Date: 27 Nov 1996 04:03:30 GMT
In article <329d7970.68340542@aklobs.org.nz>
rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) writes:
> 
> In my theory the universe is like a big block of solid steel, except
> that it is much stronger even than steel and it has no internal
> structure at all to begin with.
Solid steel can be classically or quantum mechanically modeled by a
bunch of mass points in some complicated potential. If the above is all
you have to offer i think you will come up short. Where for starters
does the mass of the electron and proton come from? How does one get
particles with integer and half-integer spin properties from this
solid? How many input parameters do you need to recover what ever
physics you get out of your model? Can i see a Lagrangian for this
solid?
Return to Top
Subject: WHY do we need to go faster than c (light)
From: raven@david.silesia.pik-net.pl (Grzegorz Kruk Ph.D.)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 18:42:06 GMT
Return-Path: cary@agora.rdrop.com
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:52:10 -0700
To: raven@david.silesia.pik-net.pl (Grzegorz Kruk Ph.D.)
Subject: Re: why do we need to go faster than c ?
[copy posted to sci.physics]
I have been thinking about it since 1981 and discussing with my teachers 
and friends while in seconary school. I have been posting this topic and 
similar ones since 1991 from Ireland. Nobody replies except children and
students. Would it be a TOP SECRET theory ? 
You wrote: 
>For "one-way" trips, you are right -- Once those engineers build some way 
>to accelerate me almost to 'c' (which is physically possible, though 
>difficult), I can visit other stars and the other side of the galaxy before 
>I die. There's no pressing need to go faster than c. 
I mean not before you die. It would be possible in two minutes or less. 
And two ways, since the speed of light is the same for all the reference 
systems.
>However, for "2-way trips", if I wants to stay safe and sound on Earth 
>(with family, friends, etc.) there's no getting around the fact that after 
>I send a probe to a star 100 lightyears away, it will be a *minimum* of 200 
>years (by my watch) before the results get back. 
No. 
>Obviously, it would be *nice* to get the results back before I die -- to do 
>this, though, I need to find some way to send probes faster-than-light. 
No you do not need. That is what I wanted to say. The distance becomes 0 
at the speed of light so where else do you want to go ? You perhaps should 
be careful of other planets and star systems behind the point you wanted 
to reach. It is better then to go slower than c, since ALL the distances 
on the way become 0 when reaching the c speed (v=c) and this implies from 
the Lorentz's equations. 
               delta x'=delta x * sqrt(1-(v/c)^2) 
                     y'=y 
                     z'=z   while going along the "x" 
The theory says... 
And yet it says the time becomes infinity outside. FOREVER becomes real. 
Infinity to the future (and to the past) ? If also to the past return 
travels are possible (a-pex & business please).
now
If someone says: 
   "It is only when we accelerate" 
   so what ? 
   The distance becomes 0 anyway at the speed of light, 
   even if it requires the general relativity. What the general relativity
   says ? That the Lorentz's equations are wrong ? I do not think so...
If someone says: 
   That says only about this what we can observe. That would have to mean 
   also that the observed energy increases, not the real one, so again 
   we can go faster than c and moreover observe other star systems at the 
   speed of c. 
This or that way we can perhaps reach other galaxies if only using fast 
enough engines or other accelerating systems. 
When thinking about curvature of our spacetime...and reaching the speed of  
light...
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Who's wrong who's right ? 
>Has anyone measured 'c' in the inter-stellar medium yet ? I don't think so. 
>In the inter-planetary medium, however: 
>_Physics of the Atom_ by Wehr,Richards,Adair, p. 202 has a pretty graph 
>(with error-bars and everything) from data collected by bouncing radar 
>signals off Venus as it passed behind the sun. 
>It clearly shows that as Venus passed behind the sun (the radar signals 
>skimming the sun), the radar signals suddenly took nearly 200 usec longer 
>than when it was further to one side or the other. The textbook claims that 
>light travels slower in the vicinity of large masses such as the sun. (But 
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>200 usec over a period of over 5 minutes isn't terribly huge). 
THANK YOU FOR THIS ! 
>If 'c' was significantly different in the inter-planetary space from what 
>it is on Earth's surface, I'm sure it would have been obvious. 
>Since the other galaxies are well over 100 light years away, it will be 
>impossible to visit them in the 21st century (i.e., within the next 100 
>years) -- unless, of course, we discover a method of traveling faster than 
>'c'. 
I think it has been misinterpreted someday and do not think so....:) 
Thank you for your (one of the very few) response. 
Regards, 
GK 
. 
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Subject: Re: Sophistry 103 (was: I know that!)
From: dcs2e@darwin.clas.virginia.edu (David Swanson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 04:02:29 GMT
In article <57dtpg$dh3@netnews.upenn.edu>
weinecks@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Silke-Maria  Weineck) writes:
> I don't know you personally; all I address are your posts.
> 
> Silke
What's the difference?
David
"In Europe, they aren't quite that bold yet; there are stone structures
there and people have something to hold on to." -Dostoievski
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Subject: Re: Reader's Digest on deconstruction
From: Robert Dodier
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:29:09 -0700
brian artese wrote:
> 
> Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > Dissertation Abstracts/Physical Science occupies a library shelf 
> > or two.
> > Contained within it are the birth pangs of the whole of technological
> > civilization.  Dissertation Abstracts/Liberal Arts occupies
> > whole walls.
> > Contained within it is nothing at all.
> 
> yeah, let's toss studies of Chaucer, Rousseau and Conrad into the
> bin --
> make way for the 'birth pangs' of Microsoft TV and Fat-Free Cheeze 
> Puffs International.
Hey gang, I'm a nerd and I'm here to say that not every techno-geek
is a philistine like Al! Do you know what -- I _like_ books, and I
_love_ good writing; I'll spare you the listing of My Favorite 
Excellent Authors -- Oh, hell, I can't resist: George Orwell, Salman
Rushdie, Jorge Luis Borges, Annie Dillard, Louise Erdrich, Isaac
Bashevis Singer, Bertrand Russell, ...
I don't really have any idea how many nerdly types are simply ignorant
of literature in general, who would say they liked the Steinbeck they
read in high school (hey, add Faulkner to the list :), and how many
are as rabidly opposed to literature as Uncle Al appears to be. I 
guess what we really need is some kind of Harris Poll -- ``Do you
work in a laboratory? Do you agree with this statement: `Let's toss 
all non-technical books.'? Do you agree with this statement: `Let's 
toss all books by 20th century Frenchies.'? '' After all, this question
about just how backward are technologists is an empirical question,
so it must have an empirical answer. :)
Need I say we need a corresponding poll for bibliophiles? -- ``Do you
suppose that if Shakespeare didn't need Crispee Flakes, we don't
need them either?''
Promoting rational discussion for over a 50th of a century,
Robert Dodier
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