Newsgroup sci.research.careers 13730

Directory

Subject: Re: Engineering PhD... me too! -- From: ggodfrey@phoenix.princeton.edu (Gregory A. Godfrey)
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: jbszee@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD... me too! -- From: Richard Logan
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: baker@nucst9.ece.wisc.edu (Mike Baker)
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: STEVEN BARTHAKUR
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: Richard Logan
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: Graeme Eisenhofer
Subject: Position available immediately -- From: raj@vigyan.nsu.edu (s. raj chaudhury)
Subject: Research Jobs -- From: wht@vnet.net
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: rodan_@primenet.com
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: rodan_@primenet.com
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: acaliska@ford.com (Ari G. Caliskan)

Articles

Subject: Re: Engineering PhD... me too!
From: ggodfrey@phoenix.princeton.edu (Gregory A. Godfrey)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 05:05:18 GMT
In article <3288ECE3.1ADA@vt.edu> Indu Konduri  writes:
> [...]
>
>I am graduating in December with a PhD in mining 
>and minerals eng. My areas of interest are thermodynamics,
>fluid mechanics - experimental & computational, and
>air conditioning. Unfortunately my degree is in mining
>eng. So, "no other discipline wants me and no mining 
>company needs a PhD in mining" thats how I feel after 
>an year long job search.
Is this situation any different than when you entered the field?
After all, I assume that you took time to investigate a field that
you would dedicate the next 'x' years of your life studying.
Exactly what does "no other discipline wants me" mean?  Is it because you
have a limited skill set or because your degree says "Mining Engineering"
on it?  I suspect it's the former.  You list some practical areas of 
interest, but it's not clear what your *skills* are.  
Give me one good reason why a company should hire you and how you can 
help that company make money.  It's nothing personal, but if you can't
do this, then companies shouldn't hire you.
>I dont know about the scene in other fields.. I guess its the same
>problem there...but fortunately some of them are wanted by industry and
>some are wanted in academia, and the remaining are like me.
>I can see growing unpopularity with PhDs these days.
It's a question of personal responsibility.  You can either choose to
increase your odds of finding a good job or decrease them.  Either way,
it is your choice.  It's a shame that graduate students, who spend so
much time doing research, do so little research with respect
to developing job skills and making themselves attractive in the job 
market.  
>Most jobs out there are in software & database development fields.
>I am left with no choice but to switch my field. i.e. my research
>work over all these years is useless.
There are a lot of jobs in these fields, but that has been the case this
entire decade.  On the other hand, I doubt that the research you have
done would have been any more useful five years ago.  Just out of
curiosity, what is the track record of those who have graduated from
your department or program over the past five years?  Did they find good
jobs?  If not, then shouldn't that have raised a red flag for you?
I get tired of the "I am left with no choice ..." excuse that so 
many graduate students adopt.  Instead of taking personal responsibility, 
they fall back on the griping that made our lives more comfortable as
graduate students.  Griping may be a great way to vent some anger, but
it's not an effective road to success in the real world.  
Instead of saying "I am left with no choice" how about the more accurate
"The choices I have made leave me with no options"?  Isn't that really
the case?
Greg Godfrey (ggodfrey@Princeton.edu)
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: jbszee@worldnet.att.net
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:39:06 GMT
Richard Logan  wrote:
>Juan Vitali wrote:
>> In fact
>> you are handicapped 'cause everybody thinks you are overqualified for
>> just about any job. STAY THE HELL AWAY OF THE PHD ROUTE....
>If you have a Ph.D. you always have the option of not including it on 
>your resume.  When I finished my MS in physics (1987), I proudly put the 
>degree on my resume and went off to look for work.  After several months 
>of looking with not so much as a form letter response to my resume I was 
>desperate for money.  I removed all my degrees from my resume, including 
>my undergraduate degree, and made up a story that I had to drop out of 
>college after two years and had worked various jobs out of state.  I 
>credited the skills and knowledge I developed in graduate school to 
>several fictitious companies.  I don't know if it's ethical to hide your 
>achievements, but I got a fairly good paying job within four weeks.
>I have a Ph.D. now.  The main reason I got the degree is my love of 
>physics.  Along the way I also discovered that many Ph.D.'s undervalue or 
>completely discount arguments and suggestions made by people without 
>Ph.D.'s.  So a secondary reason for completeing my degree was to provide 
>a means for forcing such assholes to listen to my ideas.  
>Working on the degree can be a wonderful opportunity but you should 
>minimize borrowing since it is unlikely your first job will pay enough to 
>enable you to pay back your loans and live like a human being.  I think 
>if you can present your skills properly, the degree can be used to open 
>doors that will otherwise remain closed to you.
>-- 
>___________________________________
>Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.
>University of Georgia Research Foundation, Inc.
>630 Boyd Graduate Studies Research Center
>Athens, GA  30602-7411
>Phone 706-542-3819 Fax 706-542-5638
At my most recent job interview, I applied for a research technician
position-no degree required.  I figured that since the work was not an
area in which I had direct experience, I could work for a few months
as a tech, then hopefully move  into an engineering position.    I was
interviewed while standing up in the waiting room.  Because of my
general technical expertise, I was told I could probably do the job
very well, with one hand tied behind my back.  But I was also told
that I would completely upset the chemistry of the company, as they
tend to give people responsibility quickly and push them to exceed
their current level.  Since my level would already be far above that
required for the position, it upset the balance.  Reluctantly, the
fellow that spoke to me (I hesitate to call it an interview) kept my
resume.  I wonder what happened to it...    Perhaps I should have
deleted all those degrees and publications from the resume.  Things
that make you go hmmmmmm.
For the record, here is my salary history:
1982  BS/MS  started at $27k
1985 still at same company, making ~$32K.  
         Got two job offers, for $40K each, 
         one with a $5k signing bonus.
         Got accepted into Ph.D. program.
        Guess what, I went back to school.  
1990 After beating the bushes hard, finally found a job as a test
        engineer for $44K
1991 Found R&D; engineering position with small company for $50K.
1996 Laid-off, salary of $55K.  When $$$$ got short, the highest paid
         employee (aside from pres/owner) was let go. 
I'm not an economics major, but if you want to do a Ph.D. for the
money, you figure it out.  
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD... me too!
From: Richard Logan
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:25:52 -0800
Gregory A. Godfrey wrote:
> 
> It's a question of personal responsibility.  You can either choose to
> increase your odds of finding a good job or decrease them.  Either way,
> it is your choice.  It's a shame that graduate students, who spend so
> much time doing research, do so little research with respect
> to developing job skills and making themselves attractive in the job
> market.
I think the average grad student has no idea how limited their skills are in the eyes 
of potential corporate employers.  As a grad student, you're usually in a position of 
using the software and hardware that is readily available in your lab.
I suggest that, after passing your quals, you make it a point to start reading trade 
journals in addition to academic journals.  Many job advertisements in these 
magazines list skills required of new hires (software packages, specific hardware).  
Find someone on campus using that software, buy it yourself or try and get a company 
to donate a version to your lab.  
Take some extra classes outside your discipline that require completion of a major 
project to pass the class (this will allow you to showcase your technical writing 
skills in addition to developing some new technical skills).  Give presentations, 
even if it's only in your department.  Find ways to demonstrate to an employer that 
you work effectively in a team.  You can find a HOST of other desireable job skills 
by reading trade journals.  Develope those skills.
  Remember, although you're working on an advanced degree, there are loads of people 
out there with a BS who are getting a year of demonstrable experience for each year 
you spend in the lab.  Make that time count.
-- 
___________________________________
Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.
University of Georgia Research Foundation, Inc.
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: baker@nucst9.ece.wisc.edu (Mike Baker)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 18:12:22 GMT
In article <3289F846.1CF3@OVPR.UGA.EDU> Richard Logan  writes:
>Juan Vitali wrote:
>> In fact
>> you are handicapped 'cause everybody thinks you are overqualified for
>> just about any job. STAY THE HELL AWAY OF THE PHD ROUTE....
>
>If you have a Ph.D. you always have the option of not including it on 
>your resume.  When I finished my MS in physics (1987), I proudly put the 
>degree on my resume and went off to look for work.  After several months 
>of looking with not so much as a form letter response to my resume I was 
>desperate for money.  I removed all my degrees from my resume, including 
>my undergraduate degree, and made up a story that I had to drop out of 
>college after two years and had worked various jobs out of state.  I 
>credited the skills and knowledge I developed in graduate school to 
>several fictitious companies.  I don't know if it's ethical to hide your 
>achievements, but I got a fairly good paying job within four weeks.
>
	I don't think it is unethical to leave your degrees off
	your resume, but lying about ficticious companies is most
	certainly unethical.  If I discovered an employee had done 
	this he would be fired immediately.  How can an employer
	trust you to have ethical judgement after discovering that?
	On the other hand, whoever hired you after four weeks obviously
	did not do an adequate job of verifying your resume and 
	references.
	Mike
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Baker		   	 baker@groves.neep.wisc.edu 
Engineering Research Bldg., 1500 Engineering Dr., Madison, WI 53706
-------------------------------------------------------------------   
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: STEVEN BARTHAKUR
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:28:11 -0800
jbszee@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> 
> For the record, here is my salary history:
> 
> 1982  BS/MS  started at $27k
> 1985 still at same company, making ~$32K.
>          Got two job offers, for $40K each,
>          one with a $5k signing bonus.
>          Got accepted into Ph.D. program.
>         Guess what, I went back to school.
> 1990 After beating the bushes hard, finally found a job as a test
>         engineer for $44K
> 1991 Found R&D; engineering position with small company for $50K.
> 1996 Laid-off, salary of $55K.  When $$$$ got short, the highest paid
>          employee (aside from pres/owner) was let go.
> 
> I'm not an economics major, but if you want to do a Ph.D. for the
> money, you figure it out.
I believe you could have gone for an MBA during the mid 80's and re-entered the work 
force in a pretty good position. The problem, however, was that there was a lot of 
propaganda by the sci/eng societies during that time telling everyone that there was a 
coming sci/engr shortage and that more grad work will further the prosperity of the 
great nation. 
Unfortunately, you fell into the same R&D; trap as many of my colleagues and are now 
suffering the consequences. The solution for the late 90's, I believe, is part time 
computer consulting. 
-S.B. 
~
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: Richard Logan
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:43:10 -0800
Mike Baker wrote:
> 
>         I don't think it is unethical to leave your degrees off
>         your resume, but lying about ficticious companies is most
>         certainly unethical.  If I discovered an employee had done
>         this he would be fired immediately.  How can an employer
>         trust you to have ethical judgement after discovering that?
> 
>         On the other hand, whoever hired you after four weeks obviously
>         did not do an adequate job of verifying your resume and
>         references.
I agree completely.  Maybe there's a better way to explain away the years 
you have to hide when you take degrees off your resume but I couldn't think 
of one.  This is just an example of the desperate actions you might have to 
take when you're told you're over qualified for the jobs you apply for, 
when your credit cards are maxxed out and when your checking account says 
zero.
-- 
___________________________________
Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: Graeme Eisenhofer
Date: 14 Nov 1996 04:58:05 GMT
I for one as a skilled worker (Ph.D. scientist) and 'proud to be US 
citizen' are getting rather fed up with the posts from  this 
 (see below) who never provides her/his identity, 
but keeps on pushing his/her scape goat views to explain the current 
changes in employment opportunities in the US.
Also continually disturbing to me is the considerable dialogue, 
expressed in a variety of media (e.g., newspapers, internet news groups 
and professional publications), concerning the apparent current 
oversupply in the US of individuals with high professional 
qualifications. The blame is typically placed on immigration, education, 
and employment procedures that are apparently resulting in an major 
influx of students and highly qualified immigrants from abroad who are 
displacing 'US born Americans' at the same professional level. Concern 
expressed at the congressional level is already resulting in changes in 
immigration policies and a resulting wide spread hidden agenda to favor 
employment and advancement for 'US born' over 'Foreign born' residents 
of the US. Perhaps, this may seem entirely justified; after all, in many 
countries written laws favor citizens over non-citizens for employment 
and in almost all countries there is some form of immigration bar to 
employment. In the United States, permanent residency status (i.e., the 
Green card) used to be sufficient to allow the 'Foreign born' a chance 
to follow his or her choice of career (some government positions an 
exception). Today, however, citizenship (irrespective of the length of 
residency or presence of US born family members) may not be enough to 
avoid prejudice. It is now the 'Foreign born' who are being 
discriminated against. 
All the above represents somewhat of a turnaround, since undoubtedly it 
has been the drive and expertise of immigrants as well as the open 
freedom and competitiveness of the democratic capitalist system that has 
made the United States the economic power and world leader in science 
and technology that it is today. It should also be considered that 
increased competition for positions and resources in science is not 
confined to the United States. Similar problems are also apparent in 
many other countries from as far a field as India to France. Thus, 
nationalist tendencies towards employment and careers are likely to 
increase on a global basis. This is unfortunate since the advancement of 
technology, science and economic well being should ideally be an 
international endeavor.
I hope that any participants of these newsgroups outside of the US do 
not think that all Americans are a bunch of Xenophobic bigots. There are 
actually a few people in the US who believe in open competition and 
enjoy and look forward to the challenges that such competition may bring 
to this world. I also hope that if this is so, these people will openly 
recognise the utter crap ‹ for what it is ‹ being perpetuated by 
 and colleagues on these newsgroups and in any 
other form of media.
Graeme Eisenhofer, Ph.D.
graeme@his.com
_______________________________
rodan_@primenet.com wrote:
>

U.S. programs that allow entry to tens of thousands >of permanent and temporary foreign workers fail to protect U.S >workers' jobs or wages and are riddled with abuses that in many >cases have made their original intent a ''sham,'' according to >an audit by the Labor Department's inspector general.

The >audit, >a draft summary of which was obtained by the Washington Post, >found that employers routinely flout requirements >to search for U.S. workers for job openings and to pay the >prevailing wage to the foreigners they hire. The inspector >general's >office, an ''independent agency'' within the Labor Department, >decides autonomously which programs to audit, a >departmentofficial said.

'Unique' skills

>''The inspector general's report confirms what we've been >saying >for years,'' said Labor Secretary Robert Reich. In particular, >a program that allows annual admissions of up to 65,000 foreign >workers with ''unique'' skills under temporary H1B visas >''doesn't >work,'' he said.

Employers strongly defend the H1B program >and a category ofemployment-based permanent immigration that >makes >available up to 140,000 immigrant visas for foreign workers and >their families. >

Businesses and immigration advocates say the programs >help >supply U.S. high-tech firms and other businesses with the >world's >''best and the brightest'' in an increasingly competitive >global >economy and that U.S. workers are protected by existing rules. >Among them are Labor Department requirements that employers >search >for qualified U.S. workers before sponsoring foreign workers as >permanent immigrants and pay ''prevailing wages'' to foreign >temporary workers.

>'Shopping' services

The inspector general's report said, >however, ''the foreign labor programs we audited do not protect >U.S. workers' jobs >or wages from foreign labor because neither program meets its >legislative intent.''

The program for certifying permanent >employment-based immigrants instead allows foreigners already >in the United >States to obtain permanent resident status ''and then shop >their services in competition with equally or more qualified >U.S. workers without regard to prevailing wage,'' the report >said.

The H1B program, it said, largely ''serves as a > probationary try-out employment program for illegal aliens, >foreign students >and foreign visitors to determine if they will be sponsored for >permanent status.''

>'Sham' tests

Of 24,150 foreigners for whom employers in 12 >states applied for immigrant status during fiscal 1993, the >audit found, 98.7 >percent were already in the United States and 74.1 percent were >already working for the employer when the application was >filed. >Of those already employed, 16.4 percent were working illegally, >it found.

Market tests for qualified U.S. workers are >''perfunctory at best and a sham at worst,'' > the report said.

Advertisements or postings for those >24,150 jobs as required by the Labor Department resulted in >165,000 applicants, but in >more than 99 percent of the cases a U.S. worker was not hired, >the audit found. This was because the employers were simply >posting the jobs to meet the requirement, a department >spokesman >said.

The audit, begun in April 1995, also showed that few >of > the employers surveyed could prove that they paid their H1B >workers >the prevailing wage. The auditors reported that nearly 75 >percent >of H1B visa holders worked for employers ''who did not >adequately >document'' their wages, that nearly 13 percent ''were paid >below >the advertised prevailing wage and that 10 percentwere either >illegally treated as independent contractors to avoid payroll >and >administrative costs or contracted out to other employers.

>Firm denials

>To preserve the current system, employers have spearheaded a >campaign tostrip >provisions on legal immigration from bills in Congress to >reformimmigration laws. >


The San Jose Mercury News archives are stored on a >SAVE (tm) newspaper >library system from Vu/Text Library Services, a Knight-Ridder >Inc. company. >
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Subject: Position available immediately
From: raj@vigyan.nsu.edu (s. raj chaudhury)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 05:23:18 GMT
Please reply directly to the address given in the ad:
Research Associate position available immediately to work in 
federally-funded project on cloning and expression of bacterial 
hem genes. Requires a minimum of a Master's degree ( Ph.D. preferred) 
with two years of molecular biological experience. Background 
in one or more of bacteriology, genetics and heme-biochemistry preferred.
Interested individuals should submit a resume', publications and 
transcripts. Also ask two/three referees to send letters of 
recommendation directly to Dr. Debabrata Majumdar 
(Department of Biology, Norfolk  State University, 
Norfolk, VA, 23504, USA. Phone 804-683-2543, 
Fax 804-683-8306; email: dm@vger.nsu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------
S. Raj Chaudhury			Phone: (804) 683-2241
Norfolk State University		Fax  : (804) 683-9054
Center for Materials Research		schaudhury@vger.nsu.edu
2401 Corprew Avenue			raj@vigyan.nsu.edu
Norfolk VA 23504			http://vigyan.nsu.edu/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: Research Jobs
From: wht@vnet.net
Date: 14 Nov 1996 02:42:25 GMT
"Fast & Easy Way to Find a Job"
We have many names & addresses of Human Resources of Universiites,
Private Companies, etc. nationwide (USA only) to help you find a job.
For more information, please e-mail me. Please indicate your fax # (USA) 
if available. Thanks!
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: rodan_@primenet.com
Date: 14 Nov 1996 00:46:06 -0700
Graeme,
I am sorry that I have to post to these newsgroups.  I do not have
the time or financial resources to lobby congress as so many 
companies do.  
Thank you for the detailed response, but I disagree with you.  You say,
the US is carrying out an agenda of helping american born, when the
number of immigrants admitted this year shot up to 150,000, and the 
papers were full of stories about business getting their way.  Please
do your homework before you take a stand!  It looks to me like I am
the one who is a intelligent, detailed scientist, while you are a 
grandstander.
You are right about other countries, germany and france have very low
quotas on the number of immigrant workers  -- you cannot get a job there
period because they don't allow it.
The way I see it, Foreign born scientists/engieers are a sort of 
novelty where avant garde employees get a chance to act hip and 
"unbiased" (we do not see class in america, but we can see race, 
and I am not Bart Simpson).  These foreigners come here simply for 
the higher salaries, and employers hire them mostly to make a better
profit and to lesson the chance of giving rise to a startup competitor.
I wish these scientists would take a worldly viewpoint too, and stay 
in their own countries with the education they received at that 
countries expense and help to modernize it, instead of coming to 
the us and supporting greedy, aristocratic business and stock owners.
Rodan
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: rodan_@primenet.com
Date: 14 Nov 1996 00:46:07 -0700
Graeme,
I am sorry that I have to post to these newsgroups.  I do not have
the time or financial resources to lobby congress as so many 
companies do.  
Thank you for the detailed response, but I disagree with you.  You say,
the US is carrying out an agenda of helping american born, when the
number of immigrants admitted this year shot up to 150,000, and the 
papers were full of stories about business getting their way.  Please
do your homework before you take a stand!  It looks to me like I am
the one who is a intelligent, detailed scientist, while you are a 
grandstander.
You are right about other countries, germany and france have very low
quotas on the number of immigrant workers  -- you cannot get a job there
period because they don't allow it.
The way I see it, Foreign born scientists/engieers are a sort of 
novelty where avant garde employees get a chance to act hip and 
"unbiased" (we do not see class in america, but we can see race, 
and I am not Bart Simpson).  These foreigners come here simply for 
the higher salaries, and employers hire them mostly to make a better
profit and to lesson the chance of giving rise to a startup competitor.
I wish these scientists would take a worldly viewpoint too, and stay 
in their own countries with the education they received at that 
countries expense and help to modernize it, instead of coming to 
the us and supporting greedy, aristocratic business and stock owners.
Rodan
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Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: acaliska@ford.com (Ari G. Caliskan)
Date: 14 Nov 1996 13:19:25 GMT
>A friend once told me something about love and marriage.  He expressed 
the
>idea that in love and matrimony there is no such thing as the one perfect
>person.  Rather he said, there are many people who are right for each 
other.
>
>Same in learning.  A bright person can find several fields that are 
right.
>So why chose one with dim economic prospects?
I agree to some degree. I think there is a middle ground between finding a 
subject that you like and job prospects. The only other option for Ph.Ds 
is to find an academic position. This is certainly not easy, but you'll 
more than likely do what you want to do. 
I struggled with this question about a few months ago. I got into grad 
school to get a Ph.D. But after talking to a bunch of people who have been 
through it, and from what I have seen, a Ph.D. in engineering is not 
really what industry is looking for nowadays...unless you have worked on a 
project that really relates to what industry is doing. Plus, research 
nowadays is not what it used to be. It very much applied, thus there is no 
real fundamental work performed. Here at Ford, we are limited by cost and 
time. And a lot of research that you should do, isn't even considered just 
because of money.
Anyways, this is the direction industrial research is heading, so a Ph.D. 
might not really help you train you for such a career. Just something to 
think about.
Ari
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