Subject: Re: Scientist .vs. Engineer
From: jbszee@worldnet.att.net (James Schutz)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 04:14:51 GMT
fethi bellamine wrote:
>I wonder if some of you would agree that the main difference between
>a scientist and an engineer is that a scientist has the ability to
>formulate rules (similar to theorems) while an engineer, makes a decision
>about what rules to use to implement a needed product.
>Now, the other thing that I am wondering about whether knowledge had
>expanded enough that we do not really need that many scientists anymore
>and that stress should be on comprehending fully these rules, practice
>them, and develop products that are useful to the human being, especially
>in the sectors of health and communications.
>Any thoughts?
A parable, in SI units: (With apologies to those who take offense at
the gender archetypes. Please convert the gender units as
appropriate)
A male scientist and a male engineer were placed at one end of a large
(20 m) room. At the other end of the room was a beautiful woman. The
scientist and engineer were told that at 60 s intervals a bell (f=440
Hz) would sound, and they could travel one-half (1/2; 0.5) the
distance towards their goal, i.e. the woman. At the sound of the
first bell, the engineer marched 10 m towards the woman, while the
scientist stood motionless with his brow furrowed. At the sound of
the second bell, the engineer paced another 5 m. Again, the scientist
stood motionless. The third bell sounded, and the engineer happily
strutted 2.5 m. At this point, the scientist hollered at the
engineer, "You fool, you know you will never reach her!" The
engineer replied, "Of course I know that, but I'll get close enough!!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. James B. Schutz (no longer unemployed)
Materials Engineer
Boulder, Colorado
"Holy sh*t, you want to hire me?" - J.B. Schutz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Three Immutable Laws of Networking
From: "Anthony B. Russell"
Date: 13 Dec 1996 17:06:15 GMT
Arthur,
I have just a few comments and possible clarifications:
The other mechanism to find people/jobs, namely "national
> advertising" to collect large numbers of CVs/resumes (i.e. what we have
> now in the science job market), doesn't really sellect the "best" person,
> either (because out of, say, 100 applicants, they might pick what someone
> thinks is the top 5, when I think that probably anyone in the top 30%
will
> do just fine) and the net effect is a lot more disappointed people than
> happy people (viz. the bad mood all around src).
I would have to agree with this and I think it points out a relevant
problem in science graduate training. Students are told that the "cream
always rises to the top" as a way of explaining that only the "best" will
survive the job hunting practice. When I hear reports of 200 applications
for an assistant professor job, we can immediately throw out a large
percentage for those who send their CV's in a random fashion (sort of a
Brownian approach to landing a position). We will still be left with a
signicant number of applicants who are qualified. But only one will be
chosen. Does this mean the other applicants are not the "cream"? Certainly
not, but I have seen postdocs go through this procedure for a long time
(measured in years) and I can't say that this is very encouraging for the
students who are thinking about a future in academic science. Where most
graduate programs fail, I believe, is that there is a belief that there is
only one job market (academia) and training for science-related careers
should not be taken as a priority. This is in conflict with the COSEP
report stating that more than 50% of recent Ph.D. graduate students are
obtaining positions outside of academia.
As I think about the job finding project, I have the
> notion that a lot of people "luck out" when they "happen" to be in a
> social situation where they have something to offer and they meet someone
> who needs someone with what is offered. In the science scene, the
> conference is one of the best "structured" places to do this. I think the
> "network" fails when there is a strong disparity in the number of jobs
and
> the number of people looking for jobs AND there are a fairly small number
> of jobs in the world in all the given specializations.
I think maybe our definitions for "networking" differ. The notion you
described is a form of networking and I agree that science conferences are
a great place to do this. I think another place where networking fails is
when someone relies on it as a sole means of obtaining a position (more on
this below).
What upsets me,
> however, is, for example, Dave Jensen's simplistic proclamation that "its
> all networking" and "its all the hidden job market" and my response to
> that is that even if you know these two views, its still not easy.
I can; say that I agree with this assessment as well. Networking is just
another tool in a person's toolbox for job-hunting. The more tools one has,
the better equiped the person will be for dealing with a variety of
situations. To simply rely ONLY on networking is certainly folly, but
networking does have its place.
> The main thing I'm worried about is that all this emphasis on networking
> is, or might be, conducive to creating an inferiority complex in those
who
> don't know a lot of people, or are uncomfortable with the idea of
"selling
> themselves." I have seen such preoccupation with excessive attention
given
> to this angle that it diverts one's attention from the notion that if one
> wants a job and is starting to get sick and tired of waiting through
> ten years of postdocing, then its important to change job markets and job
> goals.
I agree with this somewhat. Yes, there will be those people who can
schmooze like there's no tomorrow. Again, if all of your effort goes into
networking, then there will be trouble. In science, technical knowledge
cannot be substituted with a heavy networking skills. Sooner or later, that
knowledge has to be there for the job. But this is not to say that no
networking should be done. I also think that refusing to network when
someone wants to change fields is a dangerous game to play. For myself as a
Ph.D. student in physiology trying to enter the business arena, I have
found that networking has helped me to gather information regarding the
potential areas in business where I would be the most helpful. A key point
here is that I am not using networking to get a job, but rather to gain an
assessment on what the possibilities are and opportunities are available.
For example, I talked to someone in Tech Transfer and she informed me that
the Tech Transfer field may not be growing as fast as it was and maybe I
should think about other possibilities. Through another contact, I was able
to talk to a securities analyst who also gave me some advice as to what I
could do and he gave me some names of people to talk to and information
regarding an investor relations position at a biotech firm that just opened
up. To me, this is networking and it has helped me to define my goals. It
has also allowed me to gain insight to fields that otherwise whould have
been difficult to get from the academic world (at least in my neck of the
woods.). As I said before, this may be a difference in how we define
"networking" and the what objectives the person has for networking
(obtaining a job vs. gathering information regarding a field). I have
notices that people are more willing to talk if I say I am simply trying to
learn more about a field rather than trying to get a position. I think that
if people believe you are trying to get a job out of them, they are less
likely to talk.
However, the sad fact of real life is that those real exciting
> science jobs are just not there like they used to be 10-20 years ago and
> the ones that there are have new problems like stability, new pressures,
> and new drawbacks (eg. the need to get grant support, and institutional
> retreat from granting tenure).
I agree and I think graduate education and training need to be changed to
reflect this. As an example, I encourage all first-year graduate students
in our program to take a grant-writing course. Even if they never write a
grant (very unlikely), the discipline helps in all forms of writing and
helps to improve communication skills.
If people go for the non-science jobs (i.e. all the other
> jobs in the world, which is a job pool at least a hundred times larger
> and with a much smaller ratio of applicants to jobs), then maybe they
> almost don't need networking?
I disagree (see above for why I think networking can be a critical asset
when trying to change fields).
Thanks,
--
Anthony B. Russell
Department of Physiology and Biophysics
Mail Code 357290
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195
arussell@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Three Immutable Laws of Networking
From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:56:15 -0700
In article <32b1831c.1314072@news.halcyon.com>, DrHeasley@Chemistry.com
(Frank) wrote:
>Just a comment: I've known a number of people through my 35 or so
>years in science and industry who fit this picture exactly. All
>networking and little or no other discernable competence. As a
>recruiter, and as a hiring manager, I've found that it's essential to
>examine very closely anyone who comes off too smoothly. Highly
>polished networking skills are often a warning that the individual has
>nothing else to offer.
>
>On the flip side, it's also true that many employers require nothing
>else. In these organizations, competence takes second place to
>personality, form reigns supreme over substance.
>
>It's a truism that anything that merely looks good is only pretty.
>Beauty lies in that which is both aesthetic and functional.
>
>
>Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
Networking, when done by a salesperson or someone who is "smooth," comes
off to me as disgusting as well -- although the better ones don't make you
feel that way at all. As others have mentioned in their posts, it isn't
calling up someone you don't know and replacing competence with something
glossier . . . Instead, it is taking what you are competent in and making
the connection with others who will appreciate those abilities. Somewhere
in that process opportunities become self-evident. And, despite how
"smooth" you are, no one should go around asking for a job.
Most employers value highly polished networking skills, however. This isn't
to say that they want to substitute "gloss" for the real thing. Instead,
they want to hire someone who has all the technical skills they are looking
for, who can combine those with personal communication skills that open
doors for the company -- or that make that person's job easier to do. Even
a scientist needs to "network" internally; advancing projects along in
multidisciplined teams requires a type of communication that comes easier
to those who "network" well.
I am growing tired of the word "networking" because it is used so
frequently; and so often by me, but I can't think of a substitute. Also, a
problem with the word is that it is misinterpreted so often. You get guys
like Art thinking it is "unnecessary" and others who think that it is some
kind of substitute for being qualified. It is neither . . . IT IS VITAL,
and it is more of an ability to communicate than it is solely a job seeking
tool.
I agree with Frank that beauty lies deeper. It is that vital communication
called Networking which allows us to be placed in a position where our
"beauty" can be appreciated.
Dave Jensen
Subject: Re: Three Immutable Laws of Networking
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:42:00 -0500
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Frank wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:57:15 -0500, "Arthur E. Sowers"
> wrote:
>
> (cut)
>
> >What upsets me,
> >however, is, for example, Dave Jensen's simplistic proclamation that "its
> >all networking" and "its all the hidden job market" and my response to
> >that is that even if you know these two views, its still not easy.
>
> (cut)
>
> Just a comment: I've known a number of people through my 35 or so
> years in science and industry who fit this picture exactly. All
> networking and little or no other discernable competence. As a
> recruiter, and as a hiring manager, I've found that it's essential to
> examine very closely anyone who comes off too smoothly. Highly
> polished networking skills are often a warning that the individual has
> nothing else to offer.
Very perceptive, Frank.
> On the flip side, it's also true that many employers require nothing
> else. In these organizations, competence takes second place to
> personality, form reigns supreme over substance.
You mean, maybe, like running for president of, for example, the USA?
;-)
> It's a truism that anything that merely looks good is only pretty.
> Beauty lies in that which is both aesthetic and functional.
I'll buy that, too.
>
> Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
> Principal
> FSG Online - Careers in Science, Biotechnology and Medicine
> http://www.chemistry.com
>
>
Art Sowers
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Success: A copy of a letter from a friend
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 18:36:21 -0500
I just got this in a couple of hours ago and asked back if he would mind
if I posted it (anonymously) on SRC and he said yes
Sorry that the formatting is goofed up, but you get the basic message.
***** quoted email that I received ******
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, XXXXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> Hi Art.
>
> I managed to lose track of your e-mail address when I moved, and it only
> recently occurred to me to look up sci.research.careers on USENET. I
> thought
> I'd give you an update and see how things were going out there.
>
> The short story is that my career change worked like a charm. I decided
> to see
> what I could do in the technical writing area with my writing and
> programming
> experience. Turns out that there is a genuine shortage out here of
> people who
> can program and write. My wife had already moved out here, and was
> talking to
> one of the temp agencies that handles tech writers (she was looking for
> editing positions). They mentioned that they were looking for
> technically
> trained writers, and she gave them my resume about the time I left St.
> Louis to
> drive out to Seattle. When I called her from Gillette Wyoming, where I
> was
> spending my second night on the road, she informed me that I had an
> interview
> for a position at Microsoft as soon as I could get out there. I was
> working as
> a temp tech writer a week after New Years, two weeks after I arrived in
> Seattle. Things might actually have moved more rapidly, if not for the
> holidays.
>
> Temping was actually a pretty good deal. I was making $35/hr with 1.5X
> for
> overtime. That worked out to something like twice my academic salary.
> Whats
> more, the work was interesting. I have always been intrigued by computer
> science and programming, and I was up to my neck in it, learning all
> sorts of
> leading edge stuff (I landed in what was at the time called the advanced
> technology division). I'm writing stuff primarily targeted to
> programmers who want to write applications to run on our platforms, so
> I'm into it at a pretty fundamental level (diving into raw code on
> occasion). I've even written one small application that will probably
> ship with the product, and plan to do some more. Not to everyones tast,
> but I find I enjoy it.
>
> My temp career at MS only lasted three months. Someone in our group
> decided to
> quit (after ten years there, his stock options were probably worth in
> excess
> of 1M). So they offered me a full time position, complete with a nice
> fat
> stock option, generous benefit package, etc.. It was truly a novel
> experience
> to have an organization act like they really wanted me, instead of
> acting like
> they were doing me a favor to even look at my application, much less
> employ
> me.
>
>
> To make things really bizarre, a friend of mine in my field, who also
> interviewed for the position I had at XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (he
> ultimately took
> one at LSU) quit at about the same time for pretty much the same
> reasons, and
> ended up at MS, running a GIS system for the Atlas.
>
> In short, I haven't felt so good in years. I have virtually no regrets
> about
> leaving academia. A few, of course, but they are more than outweighed by
> my
> relief to be rid of all the frustrations of dealing with a clueless
> university
> and a research system that refuses to recognize that times have changed.
> If
> someone offered me a good academic position right now, I doubt I would
> be
> interested. Cheers.
>
****end of quote of email I received ****
XXXX were added to anonymize.
Art Sowers
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Assn. Sci. Professionals
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:51:26 -0500
I have seen this outfit mentioned in two articles in two different
periodicals and have been curious as to whether they really are something
or just a name on a shingle.
So, I called up, today, the American Society of Association Executives
in Wash, DC, and they DON'T have a listing for them.
Has anyone heard of ASP? Or do I have the name wrong??
By the way, the telephone number for ASAE is
(202) 626-2723
They also publish an encyclopedia of associations, foundations, etc.,
blah, blah which you can find even in fairly small community libraries.
I'm interested in any groups, associations, etc., that have us peons as
the item of priority. The only thing I know of that helps faculty, a
little bit, is the Am Assn University Professors, which is the agent for
negotiations where the faculty are unionized.
And, on the ohter side, the univeristies and colleges have the upwards of
a dozen, very vocal, very organized, lobbying associations. They obviously
look out for the institutions interest, not the interest of the
individuals who work there. For example, the Am Assn Universities
definitely looks out to make sure that the amount of what is in grants
that goes for overhead is as high as possible. And, when that number goes
up, whats left for direct costs automatically goes down.
Art Sowers
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Subject: JOB REQUEST : Ph.D. in Polymers
From: "Dr. Y.C.Bhuvanesh"
Date: 14 Dec 1996 22:39:55 GMT
Seeking job in polymer industry: Production, Research & Development, Quality Assurance, Product Development. Interested party may c=
ontact me by any of the following means. Willing to relocate and available immediately.
Polymer Processing (extrusion of fibers, tapes, films, molding, etc.)
Specialty fibers for applications in composites, geotextiles, non-wovens, industrial applications, electronics, etc.
Processing, structure property inter-relationships, mechanical properties, viscoelasticity, etc.
Design and validation of equipment for polymer processing.
Home Address: Office address:
#1, 134 Cochran Rd. Research Associate/Assistant Professor
Clemson SC 29631, USA School of Textiles, Fiber & Polymer Science
Ph./Fax: (864) 654-3764 264 Sirrine Hall, Clemson SC 29634 -1307, USA
Ph:(off) (864) 656-7537 Fax: (864) 656-5973
E-mail: bbhuvan@mail.clemson.edu
URL : http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~bbhuvan
SKILLS & EXPERIENCE
Research and practical experience
Production of fibers (by High speed melt spinning of fibers), micro-denier fibers, tapes, films, biaxially oriented films, non-woven=
s, etc.
High Speed melt spinning of PET, N6, N66, N11, Polypropylene, Blends, etc.
Carpet yarns with improved resilence.
Creep-resistant Polypropylene yarns for applications in geotextiles, composites, carpets.
Low pill, easy dyeable, high speed texturisable Polyester.
Improvement of mechanical properties of PET (130 gpd, etc.)
Radially-differentiated structure of PET and its influence on Torsional fatigue properties.
Polypropylene with electret characteristics for applications in filtration, etc.
Hollow Fibers from Poly(vinylidene Fluoride)
Bio-degradable Fibers from PolyCaprolactone
Processing of polymers and inter-relationships with structure and properties
Process simulation tools for processing of polymers.
Mechanical properties of polymers (viscoelasticity, etc.).
Rheology of polymers in shear flow and in extensional flow.
Production of composites reinforced with short-fibers, 3-dimensional textile fabrics, etc. and their directional properties.
Investigation of processing conditions to develop unique morphological structures in polymers.
Design of machinery for polymer processing (Eg. metering pumps, quench chambers, etc.)
Offered consultancy services to industrial clients: Trained personnel from industry and academic organisations.
Administrative : Handled various administrative responsibilities including overseeing of computerisation -of administrative activiti=
es.
Computer Proficiency: Extensive computer programming skills (C, Fortran, UNIX, Dos, etc.). Interactive softwares developed for comp=
uter simulation of melt spinning of polymers. Some of these softwares are currently being used by industry.
EDUCATION
Ph.D. in Fiber Science & Technology, Indian Institute of Technology, New Delhi, India (July 1995).
Research topic for doctoral degree: Some studies on inter-relationships between processing, structure and properties in isotactic po=
lypropylene fibers.
Master of Technology in Fiber Science & Technology, Indian Institute of Technology, New Delhi, India. C.G.P.A. = 8.9 (December 89).
Bachelor of Engineering in Textile Engineering from Gulbarga University, Gulbarga, India. (February 1988 with 78.5% with distincti=
on and with first rank.
AWARDS RECEIVED :
Ranganatha Memorial Gold medal for First Rank Holder in Final year B.E. (1987).
Precitex award for Best Student in Spinning (1987).
Topped the All India "Graduate Aptitute Test for Engineers" (GATE) (1988). Recepient of GATE scholarship for completion of Master of=
Technology degree in Fiber Science & Technology.
WORK EXPERIENCE
[1] Research Associate/Assistant Professor (Post-doctoral position) at School of Textiles, Fiber & Polymer Science s=
ince November 1995.
[2] Senior Scientific Officer at Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi. June 1990 to Oct. 1995.
Commisioning, running, maintenance and research activities on Fourne High Speed Melt Spinning Plant (SST 1207) along with a host of=
related utilities. Production of various deniers of HDPE, PP, PPCP, N6, N66, N11, PET, etc. at various spinning speeds upto 4000 m/=
min.
PUBLICATIONS
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Long-term prediction of creep in textile fibers', Polymer Communications, Vol. 35, No. 10, p2226 (199=
4).
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Computer simulation of melt spinning of poly(ethylene terephthalate using a steady-state model", Indi=
an Journal of Fiber and Textile research, Vol.15, p145, Dec. (1990).
Rajkumar Verma, Y.C.Bhuvanesh, V.B.Gupta, T.Manabe and Rajesh Jalan, "Some studies on melt flow behaviour of poly(ethylene terephtha=
late)" in Special issue on Recent Advances in Man-made fibers, Indian Journal of Fiber and Textile Research, Vol.16, p39, Mar. (1991=
).
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Interaction between viscoelastic and structural relaxation in drawn polypropylene yarn", Polymer, Vol=
36, p3669 (1995)
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Computer simulation of melt spinning of polypropylene fibers using a steady-state model", J. of Appl.=
Polym. Sci. Vol. 58, No. p663 (1995).
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Processibility and properties of polypropylene containing small amounts of polystyrene", J. of Appl. =
Polym. Sci., Vol 60, p1951 (1996).
V.B.Gupta and Y.C.Bhuvanesh, "Studies on Shrinkage characteristics of yarns made from Polypropylene and Polypropylene containing 5 p=
ercent by weight of Polystyrene", Indian J. of Fiber & Textile Res. (in press).
P.Bajaj, Y.C.Bhuvanesh and A.Bhargava, "Effect of Diffussional rate on the structure and properties of wet spun Acrylonitrile terpol=
ymer protofibers", under preparation for J. of Appl. Polym. Sci.
S.A.Mondal, V.B.Gupta and Y.C.Bhuvanesh, "Relationship between spinning speed and throughput rate during Melt Spinning of some fiber=
forming polymers", communicated to J. of Appl. Polym. Sci.
Y.C.Bhuvanesh and V.B.Gupta, "Long-term creep behaviour of drawn polypropylene yarn and polypropylene-polystyrene blends", under pre=
paration for J. of Appl Polym Sci.
BOOKS
Contributed to a book entitled "Production, structure and properties of Man-made Fibers", in press, Chapman & Hall, London.
