Newsgroup sci.research.careers 14146

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In <32B6327E.2126@earthlink.net> pohl@earthlink.net writes: 
>
>Hi, i'm considering going to school to study biology. i would like to know
>    if there presently are jobs in this field and what is predicted for   
>    years to come. does anyone know of a web site that would be helpful?
>    also, if there are jobs what area are they in?
>    thanks!  
>           mark - please email me with responce to pohl@earthlink.net
Hey Mark,
Biology jobs are a little more difficult to come by than "real" jobs.  My
biologist friends and I are always kidding around about getting a real job,
somehow, we never quite manage to get a round to it.  
I am a fish culturist, as are many of my biologist friends.  Many more work
in labs and in the field.  A few of them make really good money, most get
by.  
I wouldn't go back and change, even though my engineer friends, doctor
friends, and high school grad friends mostly make more money than I do. 
Most of them don't like thier jobs, I love mine.  My office is as big as
all outdoors.  The sunrise is all mine, as is the sunset.  Somehow, I
manage to spend some time with my family as my schedule is not set in
stone, rather with the seasons, and daily weather.  I shuffle my fair share
of papers, and then some, but I shuffle more fish than papers.  I feel the
challenge of each day as an opportunity to learn more about the intracacies
and vagaries of life.  
I might not have lots of money, but I got a Ford pickup with a radio and a
shotgun.  I have lakes and ponds full of fish, none are really mine, but
all of them are mine, a whole county full.  When I go fishing, I get a
bigger thrill out of catching something unusual in my castnet, or on my
line than the next guy gets from a big redfish.  When the discussion in a
group turns to things of life, I become the one that everybody looks to for
the answer, respect of my friends in the community is almost better than
cash.  
I would encourage any young person that is dedicated and enthusiastic
to pursue a career in life science.  It will be a rocky path for sure,
but rewarding in more ways than can be counted.  The biggest reward of
all is the continued search for and finding of new knowledge.  A day
does not go by where I don't learn something new and exciting about the
world in which we live.  
I guess then the answer is, yes, there are jobs for biologists.  IMHO,
pursuing a career in biology is as noble and rewarding as any other. 
Do it, and have a full and rewarding life.  Best of luck,
Brett Rowley
Fisheries Biologist
Great Lakes Sportfishing Resort and Koi Breeding Farm
West Columbia, Texas
http://waterscapes.com

On Tue, 17 Dec 1996 pohl@earthlink.net wrote:
> Hi, i'm considering going to school to study biology. i would like to know
>     if there presently are jobs in this field and what is predicted for      
>     years to come. does anyone know of a web site that would be helpful?
>     also, if there are jobs what area are they in?
>     thanks!  
>            mark - please email me with responce to pohl@earthlink.net
> 
> 
I have written a series of essays about this AND have collected a number
of website URLs relating to jobs in science. See below. You did not say
what kind of school you are aiming for and what school(s) you have been
to. You are wise to ask now if there are any jobs in this field before you
begin studies. Its also wise to start asking where you might look for
listings of openings. So, you if you want to look on the web, then see
below. Many of those websites will include links to still others that are
not on my list. After you have taken a few days to sample the information
on these sites, you may have a better idea of what lays ahead of you. Then
you can come back to the newsgroup  (or others if
you so wish) and ask for further details from those who hang out here on a
regular basis.
Art Sowers 
________________________________________________________________________
  rev Dec 1,1996   "Contemporary Problems in Sci Jobs" (=CPSJ) essays: 
  a 2nd Edition of CPSJ is available by e-mail from the author, 
   or at any of the following web sites with
  conditional unrestricted royalty-free reproduction rights. Earlier 
  versions of the "Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" essays may be
  found at:   
  http://www.mbb.yale.edu/acb/                                          
  http://chemistry.com/ (dig around)                                    
  http://his.com/~graeme/cpsj.html    and ***/cpsj2.html                
  http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm     (my WWW site)  
  cited at: http://www.netcom.com/~stanton/biojobs.html
WE APPRECIATE E-MAIL & NOTIFICATION OF OTHER RELEVANT INTERNET RESOURCES 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (rev Oct 12,'96) Some Net resources on PhD careers & job market:      
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  Nat Acad study on where PhDs eventually go:                           
       http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/grad/                       
        "          "     /     "     /  "  / "  /appendixc.html         
  Goodstein Report: http://www.caltech.edu/~goodstein                   
  Nasty politics:  http://his.com/~graeme/pandp.html                    
  Another analysis of the poor job market and its causes:        
  http://www.mit.edu:8001/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/e/r/erw/Public/Pandora.html
 "The Scientist"- newspaper about scientist careers:                   
      http://www.the-scientist.library.upenn.edu                       
      gopher://ds.internic.net/11/pub/the-scientist (txt, partials)    
 AAAS (the situation of postdocs):                                     
      http://www.edoc.com/nextwave/forums_postdoc/                     
 AAUP Listserver: majordomo@igc.apc.org - leave sub=blank  -           
      put in text of message:  subscribe aaup-general                  
 AAUP email address: aaup@igc.apc.org                                  
 Other scientist employment resource info can be found at:             
      http://his.com/~graeme/employ.html (best I've seen yet)           
      http://saa49.ucsf.edu/psa/                                       
 YSN website is at: http://www.physics.uiuc.edu/     (hunt around)     
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| the following list of website URIs need the "http://" URL prefix      |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| From Wall St. Journal (Sept 20,1996, p.B1) article on Net job hunting |
| America's Job Bank:    www.ajd.dni.us                                 |
| CareerPath:            www.careerpath.com                             |
| Online Career Center:  www.occ.com                                    |
| CareerMosaic:          www.careermosaic.com                           |
| Help Wanted USA:       iccweb.com     (not a typo)                    |
| Monster Board:         www.monster.com                                |
| E-Span:                www.espan.com                                  |
| Career Magazine:       www.careermag.com                              |
| Career City:           www.careercity.com                             |
| NationJob Net:         www.nationjob.com                              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| (revised Nov 23, 1996) OTHER RELATED Website URIs:                    |
| NES (very mild)        pegasus.uthct.edu/nes.html                     |
| Top Job                www.topjobusa.com                              |
| Fisk Book              www.agu.org/careerguide  (go for links)        |
| Career CD-ROM          www.careertoolbox.com    (sponsor: ChavisRegal)|
| KellyScientific        www.kellyservices.com                          |
| Space Jobs             www.spacejobs.com                              |
| Chemistry Jobs         chemistry.mond.org/jobs/jobguide.html          |
| Chem & Industry        ci.mond.org                                    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 17 Dec 1996, Wei-Choon Ng wrote:
> Hi all,
> 	Given that the direction of research nowadays are governed by the 
> industry, it leads me to wonder whether I could be proposing my own ideas 
> for PhD research at all.  If I need a assistantship/fellowship, I may 
> have to deviate from my core area of interest to one that is in line with 
> the industry that is sponsoring me.  The other factor affecting such 
> decision will be whether my PhD training is relevant to the industry, 
> i.e. I'll need to earn a living after the PhD.  I just want to find out 
> how many souls there are out there who are lucky to be doing research in 
> their *real* interest area.
Its very difficult to be lucky to be doing research in one's real area of
interest. You will have to decide whether you want to emphasize having a
job in the future OR having a period of schooling where you have some
chance to study what you are really interested in.  There are a wide
variety of options, but you may actually end up spending several years
trying to make a good decision. Science is changing so very rapidly that
areas that are popular now may not be popular in 10-15 years. You should
ask many people for their opinions. Put together your own strategy for
your decisions. 
> Wei-Choon.
> --
I have put together a website with my own opinions on the problems in
science jobs AND have listed a number of other websites where you can go
to get other ideas from knowledgeable people and links to still other
websites. I think your should visit most of these sites and see for
yourself what is going on. Good luck.
Art Sowers
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on 
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

In article  davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen) writes:
>From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
>Subject: Re: Hidden agenda in hiring (read as: Marc needs more bodies)
>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 19:57:45 -0700
>Hi Peter
>As another recruiter, I can tell you that I have known of Marc Andelman for
>many years and he doesn't have a reputation for throwing out advertisements
>for his business. I think your "slam" on Marc was a bit unfair.
Unfair?  Well, immediately below is a copy of Marc's post.  Read it again and 
tell me which (his or mine) was "unfair."  My posting is down below.
In article <32B5A9C4.1FA0@ultranet.com> Marc Andelman  writes:
>From: Marc Andelman 
>Subject: Hidden agenda in hiring.
>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:57:56 -0800
>Hi.  Biosource is the oldest recruitment firm in biotech.  We do 
>not do academic hiring, but can offer the following opinion
Interesting - first line = industry/job category, second line = slam on 
academia.
>1.  A lot of academic jobs have a hidden agenda.  If you interview
>for these, you may have no chance from the start.  They are
>only interviewing to give a patina of fairness.  However, they
>have already made up their mind to hire someone's favorite,
>fill some research or EEOC quota, or a mydriad of other political
>things that have nothing to do with you except waste your time.
>It only gets worse, so carefully consider the validity of an
>academic career.  Society needs bright people to be actively
>involved, not in an ivory tower.
>Regards,
>Marc Andelman
Nothing said of industry of which Marc has the most familiarity with and with 
which I'm sure he can tell as many (if not more) sordid stories than those he 
may have heard from academia.  Considering his position and his first line, 
this makes him suspect of "slamming" an employment category (academia) other 
than his own (industry) - I pointed out that he could have given a more equal 
treatment; he chose not to.  Who was unfair?  I just pointed this obvious 
mistreatment out.  
>Marc likes to get interesting discussions started on src, and as you can
>tell by many of his threads which have gone on for dozens of posts, he has
>been successful at that.
Dave, you seem to be standing up for a colleague when there is no 
merit/justification in it.  Past contributions are irrelevant to this issue of 
the current posting.
>Too many people in academia think that headhunters are always pushing for
>"bodies." 
Perhaps if that is the perception they have obtained from their interaction 
with "headhunters", then there is some fire under all that smoke?  It is only 
the headhunters who can change that perception (i.e., by how they treat 
and interact with people).
>I can tell you quite frankly that this is not the problem; there
>are plenty of people looking for jobs. 
One question - where do most of those "plenty of people looking for jobs" come 
from?              
      Academia or industry??
Enough said.  This is out of character for me (to get so involved on internet 
discussion).
Dave/Marc : Happy Holidays
>What recruiters tend to need more of is client assignments. 
>(Clients=Companies, and not bodies)
>Dave
>In article ,
>MURIANAP@foodsci.purdue.edu (Pete Muriana) wrote:
>>This one-sided slam on academia is interesting from someone who 
>>makes a living filling spots for industry (the preceeding plug for Biosource  
>>was most obvious).  At least Dan Reiley (sp.?), who works in industry was fair 
>>and gave pros/cons for both big/little industry and academia.  
>>
>>Sorry, but just ran out of tea bags :-(
>>-Peter
**********************************************************************
   Peter M. Muriana 
   Associate Professor                         317-494-8284   TEL            
   Dept. of Food Science                     317-494-7953   FAX            
   Purdue University                    murianap@foodsci.purdue.edu   
   Smith Hall                                 http://www.foodsci.purdue.edu/ 
   W. Lafayette, IN  47907-1160         personnel/muriana.html        
**********************************************************************
The opinions expressed above are mine alone and do not represent 
endorsement by my employer
**********************************************************************

Firstly, I am British and a well qualified metallurgist/materials 
scientist with five years industry experience. I found that I could make 
50% more money as an unqualified and inexperienced buyer of electronics 
than in my chosen profession.
Scientists (and to a lesser extent engineers) in the UK are expected to 
enjoy there work, and therefore do not need to be paid. Germany is the 
best payer in Europe for technical staff.
As regards the international jobs market. My question to all the US 
isolationists is: do you believe that employing good, well qualified 
scientists/engineers is good for a company? If so, and if the US is able 
to select the best internationally, it will help US industry compete 
internationally.
Employing good scientists/engineers will improve industrial performance, 
and so increase demand. There is no national allocation of jobs, of 
which the US, or the UK, has a fixed proportion. It is down to 
competition. To compete internationally, you have to hire the best 
internationally.
Some perverse comments have also been made on training. The majority of 
the imported professionals will be extremely well trained (at the 
expense of their previous country or employer), and are more likely to 
provide training in their new environment than require it. The US (or 
other importing country) is actually the beneficiary here - gaining all 
that training for free! It is in the rest of the world that we suffer 
the 'brain drain'.
I have looked at positions in the US which pay three times the 
corresponding British technical salary, and for several of which I was 
the best qualified candidate. However, the employer decided to go for a 
local US candidate to save the hassle of bringing in someone from 
abroad.
I can understand that position - indeed, I have some reluctance to move 
to the US, it is just the $$ persuading me - but its predominance should 
be worrying, as it will surely only lead to the US falling 
technologically further behind Japan, Europe, and the rest of the world.
As for myself, well I took that commercial job within the UK. But I 
haven't turned my back on science. I keep in touch, do a little 
moonlight consultancy, and would go back to R&D; like a shot if I could 
avoid the salary cut.
(anyone looking for an aerospace metallurgist, with experience of NDE 
and mathematical modelling, currently working in Procurement?)
Steve Foister

In article <595ffr$qgm@nuscc.nus.sg>, weichoon@eeserver.ee.nus.sg says...
>
>Hi all,
>        Given that the direction of research nowadays are governed by the 
>industry, it leads me to wonder whether I could be proposing my own ideas 
>for PhD research at all.  If I need a assistantship/fellowship, I may 
>have to deviate from my core area of interest to one that is in line with 
>the industry that is sponsoring me.  The other factor affecting such 
>decision will be whether my PhD training is relevant to the industry, 
>i.e. I'll need to earn a living after the PhD.  I just want to find out 
>how many souls there are out there who are lucky to be doing research in 
>their *real* interest area.
>
>Wei-Choon.
>--
This too is a question that I am bothered by.  I am preparing to enter 
graduate school.  My real interests are in space plasma physics, but to get 
a fellowship/assistantship it seems that I must enter a field that industry 
is interested in, such as optics.  Someone, please tell me there is hope!
Zine Smith

In article <59668u$etu@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
brett3@ix.netcom.com(brett rowley) wrote:
>I would encourage any young person that is dedicated and enthusiastic
>to pursue a career in life science.  It will be a rocky path for sure,
>but rewarding in more ways than can be counted.  The biggest reward of
>all is the continued search for and finding of new knowledge.  A day
>does not go by where I don't learn something new and exciting about the
>world in which we live.  
>
>I guess then the answer is, yes, there are jobs for biologists.  IMHO,
>pursuing a career in biology is as noble and rewarding as any other. 
>Do it, and have a full and rewarding life.  Best of luck,
>
>Brett Rowley
>Fisheries Biologist
>Great Lakes Sportfishing Resort and Koi Breeding Farm
>West Columbia, Texas
>
>http://waterscapes.com
Hi Brett
Thanks for this post. It was genuine and filled with a perspective that
gets lost in all the discussion about up-or-down job markets.
regards
Dave Jensen
http://www.bio.com/hr/search/search_1.html

In article <595ffr$qgm@nuscc.nus.sg> weichoon@eeserver.ee.nus.sg (Wei-Choon Ng) writes:
> 	Given that the direction of research nowadays are governed by the 
> industry, it leads me to wonder whether I could be proposing my own ideas 
> for PhD research at all.  If I need a assistantship/fellowship, I may 
> have to deviate from my core area of interest to one that is in line with 
> the industry that is sponsoring me.  The other factor affecting such 
This is just my option rather than a fact but I think it is
*possible* to pursue your own topic.  However, if you are
supported by a research assistantship, this may be
*difficult* to do because you will then have to do two
research topics at the same time--one for your sponser (the
exact work may well be dictated by your sponser) and another
for your self.  It's just so much easier (in my opinion) to
find a dissertation topic that is somewhat related to the
former thus concentrating your own effort.
Although I don't have any experience with fellowships, my
understanding is that they don't (usually don't?) come with
restrictions on what you can pursue..
A similar problem I encountered in the past was that your
dissertation topic may be limited by the faculty's interest.
A faculty, although he/she may have worked in the area in
the past or may still work in the area, may not want a
student in that area because of job situation.  (This has
happened to me, which led me to quit the first school I went
to..).
-- 
Fumiaki Kamiya

In article <32b6c185.0@ntserv.obu.edu>,
SMI27879  wrote:
>In article <595ffr$qgm@nuscc.nus.sg>, weichoon@eeserver.ee.nus.sg says...
>>i.e. I'll need to earn a living after the PhD.  I just want to find out 
>>how many souls there are out there who are lucky to be doing research in 
>>their *real* interest area.
  I'm doing research in my REAL interest area.  One of the reasons I'm
interested in it is because there is an industrial need for it.
>This too is a question that I am bothered by.  I am preparing to enter 
>graduate school.  My real interests are in space plasma physics, but to get 
>a fellowship/assistantship it seems that I must enter a field that industry 
>is interested in, such as optics.  Someone, please tell me there is hope!
   I've seen people in physics departments try to stick with a field for
which there is no way to get support.  The obvious problem they run into
is that they will have to work part time outside of the university so they
can pay rent and keep their belly at least partially full.  They run into
some less obvious problems, too.  They have no money for ANYTHING, including
conferences, photocopies, etc.  They have a hard time getting any attention
from their advisor since he doesn't get to charge time to a contract.
They have a hard time putting a committee together since no professors
know or want to learn about something that can't get them funding.
Their committees tend to be more confrontational, probably because
of the stigma of not having finding.
   Of course there is the obvious problem of finding a job when they
are finished.  People with support are having a hard time finding work;
people without are in even worse shape.
   However, I've seen some people successfully complete a physics PhD without
support.  Their advisor is always an old tenured prof who no longer
does any research and has an intellectual curiosity about the field.
They always have family with money for a safety net.  They are
usually unusually poor anyway, even for a grad student.  They always
take several years longer to finish.  They always seem to have less
time for anything, yet seem to be unusually frustrated and bored.
   One person I knew who did this is now science director at an exclusive
private high school.  Rumor was that his pay was decent for the average
physics PhD, but that all of his kids (and there were several) would
get free tuition (which was astronomical) at the school.
   So, maybe that's hope for you, and maybe it's not.
-- 
Dan Reiley, Ph.D.     Bell Labs       Naperville, IL
daniel.j.reiley@lucent.com   (630)713-5444

reiley@klystron.flw.att.com (Dan Reiley) writes:
>    I've seen people in physics departments try to stick with a field for
> which there is no way to get support.  The obvious problem they run into
> is that they will have to work part time outside of the university so they
> can pay rent and keep their belly at least partially full.  They run into
> some less obvious problems, too.  They have no money for ANYTHING, including
> conferences, photocopies, etc.  They have a hard time getting any attention
> from their advisor since he doesn't get to charge time to a contract.
> They have a hard time putting a committee together since no professors
> know or want to learn about something that can't get them funding.
> Their committees tend to be more confrontational, probably because
> of the stigma of not having funding.
Perhaps an opinion such as mine won't count, but I applaud the above
described person. He obviously has a passion for his subject....which
is the kind of doctoral students we need. Doing a PhD because there is
an industrial demand is a waste of your time/money. If you read half
the posts here, you will have realized that there is no major demand
in industry for PhDs, definitely not in something "interesting". You
do a PhD because it is a good learning experience. You learn skills
for the industry not topics. The topics you choose will be because you
like them. Hey, even if they pay you to do research, if you are
working on something you don't like, even 3 years can be an eternity.
You will be better paid without a PhD in the industry for those 3
years. 
Just one of those "don't have funding" graduates....and I like my
freedom of choice.
Anil

Assuming scientists watch movies, I wonder what people's
favorite actors are in this profession.  I am a recruiter
who has a science hobby, so my favorite is
1. Leslie Howard.  How many people have heard of him?  He always
plays a milquetoast who is undergoing an existential crisis.
I can't think of any modern actor type cast into a role like that.
Petrified Forest, Of Human Bondage, Gone with the Wind, etc.
Marc Andelman

In article <32b6c185.0@ntserv.obu.edu>, SMI27879@DELTA.obu.edu wrote:
> In article <595ffr$qgm@nuscc.nus.sg>, weichoon@eeserver.ee.nus.sg says...
> >
> >Hi all,
> >        Given that the direction of research nowadays are governed by the 
> >industry, it leads me to wonder whether I could be proposing my own ideas 
> >for PhD research at all.  If I need a assistantship/fellowship, I may 
> >have to deviate from my core area of interest to one that is in line with 
> >the industry that is sponsoring me.  The other factor affecting such 
> >decision will be whether my PhD training is relevant to the industry, 
> >i.e. I'll need to earn a living after the PhD.  I just want to find out 
> >how many souls there are out there who are lucky to be doing research in 
> >their *real* interest area.
> >
> >Wei-Choon.
> >--
> 
> This too is a question that I am bothered by.  I am preparing to enter 
> graduate school.  My real interests are in space plasma physics, but to get 
> a fellowship/assistantship it seems that I must enter a field that industry 
> is interested in, such as optics.  Someone, please tell me there is hope!
> 
     The real limiting factor is not so much what industry is interested
in as what the professors at the school you go to are interested in/have
funding for. (In physics the funding very rarely comes from industry- the
NSF is more usual) If you know that you definitely want to work in a
certain field, then you should make sure when visiting schools that
there's at least one professor at that school working in that area, and
that said professor is willing to take on an additional student. 
     However, you should also realize that, unless you win the lottery and
manage to find a professorship, you will not be able to continue working
on what you want to do after you graduate. If your interests are narrow,
this could be a probem for you. You should be prepared for this, and also
make an effort during your graduate study to acquire skills that can be
transferred, rather than just expertise in some obscure corner of physics.
Doug Turnbull

In article <32B7164A.471A@ultranet.com>, Marc Andelman  says:
>
>Assuming scientists watch movies, I wonder what people's
>favorite actors are in this profession.  I am a recruiter
>who has a science hobby, so my favorite is
>
>1. Leslie Howard.  How many people have heard of him?  He always
>plays a milquetoast who is undergoing an existential crisis.
>I can't think of any modern actor type cast into a role like that.
>Petrified Forest, Of Human Bondage, Gone with the Wind, etc.
>
>Marc Andelman
I don't have a favorite actor/actress. 
As a scientist I hate to watch
programs where scientists are portrayed as
1) comic nuts
2)eccentric loners
3)technological villains seeking to use their knowledge to
gain power and domination
4)know it alls (even 'the professor on Gilligan's Island was portrayed
as a buffoonish know it all).
5) People who gain sadistic pleasure from animal experimentation
6)Wise men capable of solving any of societies problems from 
killer virus to earth-colliding comet.
7)incapable of emotion
8)incapable of pragmatism
9)able to build wonder machines in their basements (though this 
at least sometimes comes true as in Apple Computer and perhaps 
Marc's water machine.)
10)Miracle workers. 
 Even when I don my Doctoral Hood over my son's
Purple Paper High School Gaduation Gown and chant blessing on all, 
I somehow still fail to  perform miracles. This is quite a blow to
me ego!!
Well, maybe I do.  Sometimes it is a miracle my manuscripts get past
the reviewers.
On the other hand, gosh, if the public believed we had those powers
we would all be earning a lot more money.
So I guess there is a reality check of sorts.  We get portrayed one way
and paid another.

In article ,
William R. Penrose  wrote:
>In article <32B3968C.6565@sympatico.ca> fethi bellamine  writes:
>
>> For those who know or did their postdoctoral studies, I wonder
>> if it is O.K. to ask the department to ask to pay for my moving
>> expenses given that the university is over 2,000 miles from my 
>> current place.
>
>It cannot hurt to ask, can it?  (Of course, they may be so enraged at the 
>request they will cancel your appointment and you will have to get a job that 
>actually pays living expenses.)
>
>Bill
National Labs like ORNL, ANL etc pay relocation upto $3000 for
postdocs.  My colleague who went as a postdoc to ANL few years
ago said she was offered upto $3000 in relocation reimbursemnet
expenses.  So why try to ask.
ratty

	This is true in many industries and fields.  To say 
	this is unique for academia is rather misleading.  There are
	posting and interview requirements to give the "impression
	of fairness" for almost all state and federal jobs as well.
	Mike
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Baker		   	 baker@groves.neep.wisc.edu 
Engineering Research Bldg., 1500 Engineering Dr., Madison, WI 53706
-------------------------------------------------------------------   

In article ,
Pete Muriana  wrote:
>In article <32B5A9E0.73E9@ultranet.com> Marc Andelman  writes:
>>From: Marc Andelman 
>>Subject: Hidden agenda in hiring.
>>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:58:24 -0800
>
>>Hi.  Biosource is the oldest recruitment firm in biotech.  We do 
>>not do academic hiring, but can offer the following opinion
>>1.  A lot of academic jobs have a hidden agenda.  If you interview
>>for these, you may have no chance from the start.  They are
>
>This one-sided slam on academia is interesting from someone who 
>makes a living filling spots for industry (the preceeding plug for Biosource  
>was most obvious).  At least Dan Reiley (sp.?), who works in industry was fair 
>and gave pros/cons for both big/little industry and academia.  
>
>Sorry, but just ran out of tea bags :-(
>-Peter
>
>
>
>>only interviewing to give a patina of fairness.  However, they
>>have already made up their mind to hire someone's favorite,
>>fill some research or EEOC quota, or a myriad of other political
>>things that have nothing to do with you except waste your time.
>>It only gets worse, so carefully consider the validity of an
>>academic career.  Society needs bright people to be actively
>>involved, not in an ivory tower.
>
>>Regards,
>
I am not favoring one over the other - academia or industry.
But I have felt this on more than one occasion about corporate
position announcements that appear in publications like SCIENCE.
When ever Science was running a special about a certain aspect
of Science & technology, for example Science runs a (hyped up)
article about Gene Therapy in their Next Frontiers section.
Then all of a sudden in that same issue there are position
announcements from major corporations indicating an interest
to hire gene therapists.  Now some thing makes me think that
there is a hidden agenda behind these corporate announcements -
visibility, advertising etc.  Hiring is not among their agenda,
but they still solicit applications.  Did any body else feel
this way.
ratty

hello everyone.
i am a graduate student in molecular zoology and i am comparing 
several software packages for my soon-to-be-purchased computer. 
i am having trouble deciding which package is the best for my 
needs. the little descriptors on the boxes aren't much help to me
in making this decision, so i am turning to you guys, hoping that
someone has some advice that may help me make this choice. please 
let me know which of the following three packages you have used, 
which one(s) you may own, and which one you wish you owned, if 
given a choice, and describe the strengths/weaknesses of the package/s
with regard to various applications.
Statview Student Edition (Abacus Concepts)
Delta Graph (Deltapoint)
Science Workplace Student (Brooks/Cole)
there isn't much of a price difference between these three, although
science workplace is a little more expensive than the other two 
packages.
thanks for your input. you can respond here or via email. if anyone
is interested, i will post a summary of responses to this newsgroup.
-- 
   Deborah Wisti-Peterson          email:nyneve@u.washington.edu
Department of Zoology, University of Washington, Seattle, Wash, USA
    Visit me on the web: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~nyneve/
=-=-=-Graduate School: it's not just a job, it's an indenture!=-=-=

CHRISTOPHER A KROKOS
Connecticut, United States
Tel/Fax: 001-203-937-6115
E-mail: krokos@ix.netcom.com
OBJECTIVE
Project Management position in Diagnostic or Pharmaceutical Industry
QUALIFICATIONS AND EXPERTISE
BS Degree in Medical Technology, The College for Medical Technologists
in Szczecin, Poland.  Project Management, Laboratory Information
Systems, Clinical Diagnostics, Research & Development, IBM Personal
Computers, Global Electronic Networks.  Two products successfully
introduced to the market.
SPECIFIC SKILLS INCLUDE:
* Project Management, Research and Analysis
* IBM Personal Computers
* Computer based data analysis
* Internet Network (WWW, Gopher, FTP, E-mail)
* On-Line/Off-Line Database Search
* Electronic and Paper Documentation, Databases
* Device and Clinical Evaluation
* Purchasing (Equipment, Computers, Chemicals)
* Clinical Research Trials
* FDA regulations incl. cGMP, GLP's, etc.,
* Clinical tests development and validation
* Southern and Western Analysis
* Primary cell isolation and culture
* Immunoassay, ELISA and Bioassays
* Computer Software (MsOffice, Paradox, etc.)
* Isolation of RNA and proteins
MANAGEMENT AND ORGANIZATIONAL SKILLS
Trained research and laboratory staff to provide a full range of
support to the organization.
Established two (2) Diagnostic Laboratories in Europe and two (2)
HIV/AIDS Research/Diagnostic Facilities in the United States.
Directed preparation of Laboratory SOP's (Standard Operating
Procedures) and QA/QC Protocols.
Managed Laboratory operations.  Familiar with FDA regulations, cGMP's
(Current Good Manufacturing Practice Standards) and GLP's (Good
Laboratory Practice Standards).
Directed scientific computer cluster.  Coordinated Computer Support
Unit.  Maintained integrity of Hardware and Software.
Provided technical, marketing and development assistance to the
Company and Customers.
Established the Internet Network, On-Line Information Access,
Worldwide connectivity, Data transfer and Database searches.
Coordinated inter-departmental activities and solved production
Problems.
Participated in external and internal management, communication and
teambuilding seminars.
Administered purchases of equipment, computers, software, chemicals,
office supplies, etc.,
Supervised disposal of Biohazard, Radioactive and Hazardous Materials.
Interpreted Environmental Laws and State Regulations.
Provided assistance on International issues. Solved shipment problems
of Biological Materials across Canadian-US border.
Consulted on software, Clinical Information Systems, worldwide
electronic transfer of information, database searches, global sourcing
of information, system safety and security, etc.,
PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
DIANON Systems Inc., Stratford, CT..........................1992-1996
PROJECT MANAGER, Research and Development
Project Management, Development of Commercial Diagnostic Tests for
Cancer.
Introduced PSA II Test and RT-PCR for PSA as a staging modality for
metastatic prostate cancer to the clinical marketplace, resulting in a
60% sales increase in product line.
Designed QC/QA and SOP's.  Reduced the Time of technology transfer
from R&D; to Production.
Incorporated the Internet Network and established electronic access to
the Libraries, Universities and Corporations worldwide.
Consulted on Software, Information, Databases, FTP-the remote File
Transfer, Security, and On-Line Database Search.
Columbia University, New York City, NY.......................1989-1992
RESEARCH SCIENTIST, Infectious Diseases (HIV/AIDS)
Established HIV/AIDS Laboratory. Managed Laboratory daily operations,
QC/QA, designed SOP's.
Received NIH certification to perform HIV culture and p24 antigen
assays through the QC/QA program of the Virologic Reference Laboratory
(VRL) for the AIDS Clinical Trails Group.
Improved HIV culture sensitivity and percentage positive detection
markedly over reference test methods. Met contract specifications for
HIV isolations from NIH Clinical Trial Samples.
Managed AIDS Clinical Trial Testing and Data Collection System for
WITS Study.  Supervised Laboratory Information Systems.
State University of New York, Brooklyn, NY...................1988-1989
TECHNICAL SPECIALIST, Virological Diagnostics
Supervised diagnostic virological and serological tests such as
Adenovirus, Cytomegalovirus, Herpes Simplex, Influenza, Respiratory
Syncytial and Varicella Zoster Viruses.
University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha, NE 
and Columbia University......................................1985-1988
GENERAL MANAGER, Molecular Virology Laboratory (HIV)
Managed Laboratory operations, a $2.5 Million Research Project.
Administered a group of 15 scientists.
Managed purchases for major Laboratory equipment, computers and
chemicals.  Established and Managed HealthCare Information Systems.
Managed recombinant DNA and Plasmid Bank. Supervised Laboratory
Radiation and Fire Safety, oversaw GLP's and prepared SOP's, QC/QA.
Guided proper AIDS virus handling procedures, and disposal of AIDS
contaminated materials.
Directed the Transfer of the entire HIV Laboratory (equipment,
reagents, viruses, cell cultures, computers and staff) from Omaha, NE
to New York City.
Established a new functional Molecular Virology Laboratory (MVL) at
Columbia University, recognized as one of the best arranged and
equipped HIV Laboratories in the United States.
LABORATORY EXPERIENCE
Cell and tissue culture, light and fluorescence microscopy,
photography, antibody modification and small animal work.
Molecular biology techniques such as RNA extraction, c-DNA Synthesis
by Reverse Transcription, Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR), agarose gel
electrophoresis, probe labeling.
Southern blotting and the propagation and isolation of plasmids and
DNA.
Routine hematology, clinical biochemistry and urinalysis.
COMPUTER SKILLS
IBM Personal Computers, The Internet and various Computer Software.
Remote data and file transfer in any size and format. Computer
Security, Networking, E-mail, Information, Faxing, On-Line/Off-Line
Database Search, etc.
SOFTWARE
Microsoft Office (Word, Excel, Power Point, Access), Paradox,
Quattro-Pro, Microsoft Publisher, Avery Label PRO, Lotus 1-2-3,
Delta Graph, Corel Draw, Lotus Freelance Graphics, Word Perfect,
Ami-Pro, Aldus Page Maker, File Maker PRO, Q Modem, WinFax
PRO, ProcommPlus, Harvard Graphics, Sigma Plot, Netscape Navigator,
Eudora, Agent, Ecco PRO, etc.,
INSTRUMENTATION
Gamma counter, liquid scintillation counter, light and fluorescence
microscopy, ELISA plate reader, IBM personal computers, Abbott
TDX Analyzer, TECAN Automated Robotic Liquid Processor, Abbott QUANTUM
II Analyzer, PRO/PETT Automated Liquid-Handling System, Abbott
PRO-QUANTUM Automated Washer, Source EXEC-WASH Automated Wash System,
TOSOH AIA-1200 Fully Automated Enzyme Immunoassay System.
CONTINUING EDUCATION
Paradox for Windows School, Personal Computer Learning Centers of
America, Inc., (PCLC), 1995,
TOSOH AIA-1200 Analyzer, Fully Automated Enzyme Immunoassay System -
Training, 1994.
Paradox Software School, Center for Professional Computer Education
(CPCE), 1993
ASCP Conference Series: "Prostate Specific Antigen. Understanding and
Evaluating Assay Performance", American Society of Clinical
Pathologists, 1993.
Managing Multiple Projects, Objectives and Deadlines, SkillPath
Seminar, Inc., 1993.
IBM Personal Computer Course, Columbia University in New York City,
1990.
Laboratory Radiation Safety Training, University of Nebraska Medical
Center, 1986.
BIBLIOGRAPHY 
Sano, Y., Krokos, C.A., and Townley, R.  Identification of
Alpha-Adrenergic Receptors in Human Lymphocytes: Values in Normals and
Asthmatics. Presented at annual meeting of American Academy of
Allergy. January 1981.
Cheng, J.B., Cheng, E., Krokos, C.A., and Townley, R.G. Effects of
Serineborate complex on the ability of Leukotrienes to inhibit 3H
LTD4 and 3H LTC4 binding. Presented at the annual meeting of
Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology. April 1984.
Sano, Y., Krokos, C., Cheng, J.B., Bewtra, A. and Townley, R.G.
Comparison of alpha and beta-Adrenergic receptors in asthmatics and
controls: Identification and characterization of alpha-Adrenergic
receptors in human lymphocytes. American Federation for Clinical
Research, 1984.
Mirvish, S.S., Makary, M., Ji, C., Krokos, C., and Schut, H.A.J.
Studies on metabolism of and DNA alkylation by the Esophageal
carcinogen methyl-n-amylnitrosamine (MNAN). December 1985.
Mirvish, S.S., Ji.C., Makary, M., Schut, H.A.J., and Krokos, C.
Metabolism of the Oesophageal carcinogen n-nitrosomethylamylamine:
changes with age, clearance from blood and DNA alkylation. September
1986.
Hanausek, M., Walaszek, Z., Wang, S., Mirowski, M., Krokos, C.,
Soriano, T.F. The accurate detection of breast cancer with a new tumor
marker (p65). American Association for Cancer Research, 1994.
Hanausek, M., Mirowski, M., Walaszek, Z., Wang, S., Krokos, C.,
Soriano, T.  A new tumor marker (p65) aids in the accurate detection
of prostate cancer. American Association for Cancer Research, 1994.
Wang, S., Hanausek, M., Walaszek, Z., Mirowski, M., Krokos, C.,
Soriano, T. A new tumor marker (p65) facilitates the accurate
detection of colorectal cancer.  American Association for Cancer
Research, 1994.
Lehrer, S., Terk, M., Song, H.K., Lavagnini, P., Luderer, A.L., Linn,
J.A., Krokos, C.A., and Piccoli, S.P. Reverse Transcriptase-Polymerase
Chain Reacvtion for Prostate Specific Antigen Maybe a Prognostic
Indicator in Breast Cancer, 1995.
________________________________________________________________________
For a perfect match, please review a three (3) different versions
of my WWW résumé, at the following URL locations:
         (1) http://mkn.co.uk/help/extra/people/jola
         (2) http://www.inca.de/user/krokos/ckrokos.htm
         (3) http://mkn.co.uk/help/extra/people/krokos
________________________________________________________________________
Christopher A Krokos   *USA*
E-mail: krokos@ix.netcom.com

CHRISTOPHER A KROKOS
Connecticut, United States
Tel/Fax: 001-203-937-6115
E-mail: krokos@ix.netcom.com
SUMMARY
Over 10 years of Research & Development experience in Biotechnology.
Extensive knowledge and experience in information systems, project
management, technology acquisition, Personal Computers (Apple & IBM),
global networking, patents, On-Line services and database searches,
HTML, hardware, software and peripherals, remote communication,
system design and implementation, computer graphics, the Internet,
WWW, gopher, FTP, E-mail and IRC.
EXPERIENCE
PROJECT MANAGER, DIANON Systems Inc, March 1992 to January 1996.
Incorporated the Internet Network and established the Healthcare
Information Systems, electronic access to libraries, universities
and corporations. Improved the information flow by 70% by
implementing worldwide electronic network. Consulted on software,
database searches, global sourcing of information.
RESEARCH SCIENTIST, Columbia University, October 1989 to March 1992
Established a new HIV/AIDS Laboratory. Designed QC/QA program for
the Virologic Reference Laboratory (VRL) and the AIDS Clinical Trail
Groups.  Supervised Laboratory Information Systems.  Design and
managed clinical databases.
TECHNICAL SPECIALIST, State Univ of New York, March 1988 to July 1989
Designed diagnostic virological and serological tests for Adenovirus,
Cytomegalovirus, Herpes Simplex, Influenza, Respiratory Syncytial and
Varicella Zoster Viruses.
GENERAL MANAGER, UNO & Columbia Univ, August 1985 to February 1988
Managed a $2.5M research project. Administered a group of 15
scientists. Directed a transfer of the entire research facility
from Omaha, NE to New York City. Designed and established a new
research and diagnostic facility in New York City, recognized as
one of the best HIV Laboratories in the United States.  Established
and managed Laboratory Information Systems.  Designed databases.
EDUCATION
COLLEGE OF MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY, BS, prior to 1980, LIFE SCIENCES
Ranked in top 2% of the class.   Medical Devices, Microbiology,
Biochemistry, Quality Control, Statistics, Medical Diagnostics,
Hematology, Immunology, Toxicology.
SKILLS
SKILL * YEARS * LAST USED * SKILL LEVEL * ACTIVITIES
Word Processing and Spreadsheets * 6.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf.,
IBM and Compatible PC * 8.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed
Internet, Bioinformatics * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed,
E-mail * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed, Taught
MS Office * 4.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed, Taught
Online Services (CompuServe, NETCOM) * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf.,
Computer Graphics * 3.0 * 06/94 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed
Project Management * 12.0 * 01/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Managed
Technical Documentation * 13.0 * 01/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Documented
HTML * 0.5 * 10/96 * Medium * Used/Perf., Installed, Taught
Macintosh Computers * 0.5 * 10/96 * Familiar * Used/Perf.
Database Design and Management * 4.0 * 10/96 * Strong * Used/Perf.,
Technical Writing * 9.0 * 01/96 * Strong * Used/Perf., Created,
Technical Training * 10.0 * 01/96 * Strong * Used/Perf., Documented
TCP/IP, FTP, Telnet, WWW, Search Eng. * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf.
Customer Service * 7.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Taught
Technical Communication Skills * 13.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf.
PC Components (memory, HD, CD-ROM) * 5.0 * 10/96 * Strong * Used/Perf.
Operating Systems (Windows, DOS, etc.,) * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf.
Data Communications Hardware * 5.0 * 10/96 * Strong * Used/Perf., Installed,
Data Communications Software * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed,
Internet Software * 5.0 * 10/96 * Expert * Used/Perf., Installed, Taught
LANGUAGES
Language       Reading       Speaking       Writing        Translation
Bulgarian      Medium        Medium         Light          No
Czech          Medium        Medium         Light          No
English        Fluent        Fluent         Fluent         Yes
Polish         Fluent        Fluent         Fluent         Yes
Russian        Light         Medium         Familiar       No
Slovak         Medium        Medium         Light          No
Slovenian      Medium        Medium         Light          No
Ukrainian      Medium        Medium         Light          No
PREFERENCES
Employment Type    Location         Job Function
Full-Time          Will Relocate    Clinical Information Coordinator
Part-Time                           Information Center Support Specialist
Salaried                            Information Technology Specialist
Contract                            Internet Specialist
                                    Bioresearch Analyst
________________________________________________________________________
For a perfect match, please review a three (3) different versions
of my WWW résumé, at the following URL locations:
         (1) http://mkn.co.uk/help/extra/people/jola
         (2) http://www.inca.de/user/krokos/ckrokos.htm
         (3) http://mkn.co.uk/help/extra/people/krokos
________________________________________________________________________
Christopher A Krokos   *USA*
E-mail: krokos@ix.netcom.com

I worked in a research group that had both kinds of theses- more of the self-chosen
type.  However, remember you have to get the interest of your professor and thesis
committee.  Some self-chosen people had some problems in the initial and final
defense for this reason.

ooh, the list is long and winded...
Lance Henriksen
Al Pacino
Tim Roth
Vanessa Redgrave
Isabelle Adjani
Jean Reno
Jenifer Jason Leigh
Henri Clouzot
John Malkovich
Natalie Portman
Jeremy Irons
Arsinee Kanjian
and a bunch more although perhaps by different criteria...
    in terms of performance in a single movie, right now, the cast of
Lolita and Glengarry Glen Ross jump to mind...
to wit,
wboy 

DR>Wayne Shanks wrote:
DR>> Talk about hidden agenda....a head hunter bad mouthing academics.  He
From: drgonfly@ultranet.com
DR>Hi Wayne.  I openly admit that I will not be happy until the
DR>academic community only has people of commensurate intelligence to
DR>how they tend to treat people.
DR>Best regards and Happy Holidays,
DR>Marc Andelman
LOL!  Clever choice of words.
                                           - Robert -
                                    robert.macy@engineers.com
PS  ...and the happiest of holidays to you.
 * OLX 2.1 TD * Police seize sex computer, but are unsure of its gender.

On 17 Dec 1996, ratnakar amaravadi wrote:
> In article ,
> Pete Muriana  wrote:
> >In article <32B5A9E0.73E9@ultranet.com> Marc Andelman  writes:
> >>From: Marc Andelman 
> >>Subject: Hidden agenda in hiring.
> >>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 11:58:24 -0800
> >
> >>Hi.  Biosource is the oldest recruitment firm in biotech.  We do 
> >>not do academic hiring, but can offer the following opinion
> >>1.  A lot of academic jobs have a hidden agenda.  If you interview
> >>for these, you may have no chance from the start.  They are
> >
> >This one-sided slam on academia is interesting from someone who 
> >makes a living filling spots for industry (the preceeding plug for Biosource  
> >was most obvious).  At least Dan Reiley (sp.?), who works in industry was fair 
> >and gave pros/cons for both big/little industry and academia.  
> >
> >Sorry, but just ran out of tea bags :-(
> >-Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >>only interviewing to give a patina of fairness.  However, they
> >>have already made up their mind to hire someone's favorite,
> >>fill some research or EEOC quota, or a myriad of other political
> >>things that have nothing to do with you except waste your time.
> >>It only gets worse, so carefully consider the validity of an
> >>academic career.  Society needs bright people to be actively
> >>involved, not in an ivory tower.
> >
> >>Regards,
> >
> 
> I am not favoring one over the other - academia or industry.
> But I have felt this on more than one occasion about corporate
> position announcements that appear in publications like SCIENCE.
> When ever Science was running a special about a certain aspect
> of Science & technology, for example Science runs a (hyped up)
> article about Gene Therapy in their Next Frontiers section.
Brilliant observation. I've noticed the same thing. I have the idea that
the marketing department at Science, like most if not all commercial
endeavors (whether for profit or non profit does not make any difference)
are interested in increasing their income. By organizing a "hype" issue,
they can then contact all their past advertising purchasers and say "look
we're doing an issue on 'X' and you are in 'X' aren't you? why not take
advantage of the opportunity to 'recruit' and run an ad?" After all, they
can write off the cost of advertising from their tax bill as a cost of
business. Don't forget, Science is competing with Nature, which used its
own strategy of splitting Nature into Nature/Medicine, Nature/Biotech,
etc., etc. Then, AAAS set up more than one web page, and the last time I
looked, they are going to start charging money to access it.
are going to start charging money to acce
> Then all of a sudden in that same issue there are position
> announcements from major corporations indicating an interest
> to hire gene therapists.  Now some thing makes me think that
> there is a hidden agenda behind these corporate announcements -
> visibility, advertising etc.  Hiring is not among their agenda,
> but they still solicit applications.  Did any body else feel
> this way.
> 
Their personnel departments get these CVs and may store them for future
use. I don't know if some of them might not pass those around internally
to lab heads, section heads, etc., who "say" they might recruit, but might
actually just be "spying" on the available pool of scientists to see what
they are up to. I've seen some of this done, already.
> ratty
> 
> 
> 
> 
Art Sowers

To All:
Earlier today I received the email below, privately, and edited out the
identity of the author. I am reposting this, and cross posting to
 in the interests of generating some discussion and reactions.
I answered the email privately as well. I am leaving out my own reaction
since a public comment by me would probably be a fair bit longer than the
actual message and I'd like to have everyone's attention focused on the
situation described rather than me. If anyone wants to contact the author 
privately, I'll reveal that persons interest to the author but keep the
author's identity anonymous, and let the author decide to answer. If
anyone wants to identify their interest publically, then the author can
respond to your posting.
Art Sowers
***** below is text minus identifiers ********
From <-DELETED-> Tue Dec 17 21:08:34 1996
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:18:31 -0700
From: <-DELETED--->
To: arthures@access1.digex.net
Subject: src 
Hi,
I've been lurking in the src newsgroup for a while, and thought you would be
interested in this.  I am sending this by email rather than posting it
because I don't think it would be advisable for this to be attributed to me
or my employer, although it doesn't affect me personally.  You are certainly
welcome to further use the information without attribution.  
It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
China)
less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.  
This is obviously unethical and unfair to both the graduate students and the
undergraduates they're teaching.  However, the University people,
specifically the Department Chair, obviously feel that they can get away
with it.  So my question is: do you have any idea whether this practice is
1) common at Universities? or 2) legal?  
Thanks for any info/opinions you may have. 
****** end of document but with sig info deleted *****

National Taiwan University
Computer Science and Information Engineering
Applications are invited for a faculty position in the Department
of  Computer Science and Information Engineering, National Taiwan
University, beginning in August 1997.  Well-qualified  applicants
of  all  areas  in  computer science and engineering will be con-
sidered.  A Ph.D. or its equivalent in computer-related areas  is
required.    Applicants   are  expected  to  conduct  outstanding
research and  be  committed  to  teaching  graduate/undergraduate
courses.
Candidates should send  a  curriculum  vitae,  three  letters  of
reference, and any supporting documents to
      Dr. Yuh-Dauh Lyuu
      Associate Professor and Faculty Search Committee
      Department of Computer Science and Information Engineering
      National Taiwan University
      Taipei, Taiwan
or
      Prof. Ching-Chi Hsu
      Department Head
      Department of Computer Science and Information Engineering
      National Taiwan University
      Taipei, Taiwan
before March 15, 1997.  Dr. Lyuu can be contacted for further in-
formation at lyuu@csie.ntu.edu.tw.
Information about the department is available on the  World  Wide
Web at http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw.

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Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> ***** below is text minus identifiers ********
> From <-DELETED-> Tue Dec 17 21:08:34 1996
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:18:31 -0700
(snip)
> It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
> of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
> China)
> less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
> Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
> The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
> they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.
> 
> This is obviously unethical and unfair to both the graduate students and the
> undergraduates they're teaching.  However, the University people,
> specifically the Department Chair, obviously feel that they can get away
> with it.  So my question is: do you have any idea whether this practice is
> 1) common at Universities? or 2) legal?
> 
> Thanks for any info/opinions you may have.
> 
> ****** end of document but with sig info deleted *****
I'm not prepared to discuss the legalities of such an practice.  But I
can 
contrast this with the experience in my department (chemical
engineering, 
Cornell University, Ph.D. '93).  In our department, we were required to
TA 
once, even if you had a fellowship or research assistantship, which I
think
is quite valid.  However, non-native speakers of English were almost
univer-
sally given "grading only" TA assignments.  This left the English
speakers
with doing the TA assignments that involved student contact as well as
grading 
(labs and recitation sections), which is more time consuming.  This
benefits 
the undergrads, but places an undue burden on English-speaking grad
students.
At least it is only one semester out of a typically 5-6 year grad
education.
Of course, the department is more interested in pampering undergrads who
will
some day donate money to Alma Mater than treating grad students
equally...
Just my $0.02.
-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
Lisa M. Sweeney, Ph.D.		Concurrent Technologies Corporation
Risk Assessment Specialist	1450 Scalp Avenue
sweeneyl@corp.ctc.com		Johnstown, PA 15904

>This is common practice in all industries. Companies run ads in recruitment
>sections called "Image ads" which are more to advise their own people what
>a great place they work in than to recruit new people. I wouldn't think it
>is in any way reflective of something sleazy at SCIENCE.
If the recruiter is running an "Image Ad" then I think it is an
obligation on the part of the recruiter to make clear to all
potential applicants their intention.  If they do not make it
clear then it becomes "hidden agenda".  If they make it clear
then the recruiter is not creating any false hopes for applicants.
I personally do not think there is any thing wrong with running
an "Image Ad", but not being open about it is questionable.
ratty

In article , "Arthur E. Sowers"  says:
>
>
>To All:
>
>Earlier today I received the email below, privately, and edited out the
>identity of the author. I am reposting this,
>Art Sowers
>
>***** below is text minus identifiers ********
>From <-DELETED-> Tue Dec 17 21:08:34 1996
>Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:18:31 -0700
>From: <-DELETED--->
>To: arthures@access1.digex.net
>Subject: src 
>
>Hi,
>
>I've been lurking in the src newsgroup for a while, and thought you would be
>interested in this.  I am sending this by email rather than posting it
>because I don't think it would be advisable for this to be attributed to me
>or my employer, although it doesn't affect me personally.  You are certainly
>welcome to further use the information without attribution.  
>
>It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
>of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
>China)
>less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
>Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
>The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
>they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.  
>
>This is obviously unethical and unfair to both the graduate students and the
>undergraduates they're teaching.  However, the University people,
>specifically the Department Chair, obviously feel that they can get away
>with it.  So my question is: do you have any idea whether this practice is
>1) common at Universities? or 2) legal?  
>
>Thanks for any info/opinions you may have. 
>
>****** end of document but with sig info deleted *****
>
The department chair should have his head examined and his chair
kicked out from underneath his dumb a...
I can't comment on the legal issues because that is way outside my
knowledge, BUT-- to foist TAs with exceptionally poor communications
skills on undergraduate students is idiotic.
If the motivation is saving money the practice is unconscionable.
If the chair really thinks he is helping the grad students learn 
to communicate, he should consider the negative effect of what he is
doing on the undergraduate students.
In some states parents and alums have virtually rebelled against
this practice.  Complaints have been lodged with legislators etc, and
the issue has been in the ordinary news.  Parents paying a fortune
for their kid's undergraduate educations have a right to expect better.
What to do about the situation?  Probably as grad students, DO NOTHING.
The undergrads being taught by people with poor English communications
skills can (and I asssure you, they will) go to their Deans and bitch.
And they should complain long and loud.  The squeaky wheel does get
the grease.
The undergraduates have student newspapers in which the issue can be
brought out, they have some form of student government which can 
pass resolutions on the issue and bring them to the attention of
the university Prez.   When all else fails they can walk out of
class  and refuse to return until the problem is fixed.
(Well you can tell I'm a product of the '60s)

In article ,
"Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
>Their personnel departments get these CVs and may store them for future
>use. I don't know if some of them might not pass those around internally
>to lab heads, section heads, etc., who "say" they might recruit, but might
>actually just be "spying" on the available pool of scientists to see what
>they are up to. I've seen some of this done, already.
>
>> ratty
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>Art Sowers
This is common practice in all industries. Companies run ads in recruitment
sections called "Image ads" which are more to advise their own people what
a great place they work in than to recruit new people. I wouldn't think it
is in any way reflective of something sleazy at SCIENCE.
Dave

A complete tep by step detailed report on how to prepare for your next
job interview.  Send $5 Cheque, M.O., or Cash
First Impressions Consulting
1424 Columbia Cres.,
Burlington, Ontario
L7M 3G5 Canada
Include your email

> 
> It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
> of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
> China)
> less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
> Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
> The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
> they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.  
While I do agree that requiring a Chinese grad. student to teach one more class
doesn't solve the communication problem, you must remember that Chinese
 students pay NO United States income tax!!!! (I think the same is true for 
graduate students from Spain!).
How fair is that?
Thus, it may still be a better deal for the Chinese students when compared
to American students who must pay income taxes.
As for the communication issue, each school handles this problem
differently. Personally, I feel it is unfair to not only the undergraduates
but the graduate students as well. I had an experience in which I basically
TA'd two courses because all the students from the lab with the TA who
could not communicate effectively would come to me for help.
-- 
Ken
kdrew@nd.edu

Name:      Andrew W. Zovnic
Company:   (none specified)
E-mail:    Azovnic@aol.com
Phone:     (414)339-0009
Location:  Anywhere in the U.S.A.
Andrew W. Zovnic
Phone:(414) 339-0009
E-mail Azovnic@ aol.com
EDUCATION:                      
   M.S. Environmental Science and Policy (Ecological Systems 
   Management)
   University of Wisconsin Green Bay
   May 1995
   M.S. Thesis Title: The effects of habitat on the production of 
   Ovenbird (Seiurus aurocapillus) and Hermit Thrush (Catharus 
   guttatus) populations in the Nicolet National Forest 
   Bachelor of Science
   University of Wisconsin Green Bay
   Major: Biology   Minor: Environmental Science
   December 1990
   PUBLICATIONS:
     Zovnic, Andrew W. and Robert W. Howe. 1995.  Breeding Birds of 
     the Mink
   River Natural area in Door County.  The Passenger Pigeon.
   57(1):23-29.
   LICENSES:
     Scientific collectors permit from the Wisconsin Department of 
     Natural Resources.
     Bird banding permit from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
   VOLUNTEER WORK:
     Chair of The Nature Conservancy's Point Sauble stewardship 
     committee.
     Nicolet National Forest Breeding Bird Survey, Fox River Eagle 
     Winter Survey, Long Point Bird Observatory Marsh Monitoring
     Program (Amphibians & Birds), Wisconsin Department of Natural 
     Resources Spring Frog Survey, Prescribed burning, University of
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   WORK EXPERIENCE:
   WISCONSIN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES/ LAKE MICHIGAN
   DISTRICT
   Green Bay, Wisconsin
   Position: Forestry Tech. I
   Began:10/1995, Ended: 5.1996 
   Duties: My duties require the placement and monitoring of traps, 
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   extensively. 
   USDA FOREST SERVICE/ NICOLET NATIONAL FOREST, WISCONSIN
   Rhinelander, Wisconsin
   Position: Hydrological Technician
   Began:6/1995, Ended: 10/1/95
   Duties:  My duties included collecting water chemistry data for a 
   variety of water chemistry parameters and physical attributes. 
   Topographic maps were used extensively for site identification.  
   Data was entered into ORACLE which will be used to create a GIS
   mapping.  I was also responsible for keeping an up to date record 
   of sites sampled using spread sheet and database computer programs. 
   FOTH & VANDYKE AND ASSOCIATES INC.
   Green Bay, Wisconsin
   Position: Scientist
   Began: 12/1993, Ended: 6/1995
   Duties: My duties included biological surveys, wetland assessments, 
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   preforming in a team setting while keeping detailed records and 
   coordination of written and computer data.  I performed many 
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   airport safety.  I also performed habitat mapping, sound impact 
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   Windows based computer programs including: WordPerfect 5.1-6.1,
   Quattro Pro, Lotus, Paradox, Corel Draw, etc.
   UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN GREEN BAY/ USDA FOREST SERVICE
   Green Bay, Wisconsin
   Position: Research Graduate
   Began: 09/1991, Ended: 05/1993
   Duties: My duties included designing and conducting a land 
   management study for my M.S. degree.  I was responsible for hiring,
   training, and supervising a bird survey crew.  As a final 
   requirement for my M.S. degree, I performed and interpreted 
   statistical analyses of bird and habitat data and wrote a highly 
   technical thesis on my project.  I incorporated the use of Dos and
   Window based computer programs including: WordPerfect 5.1-6.1, 
   Quattro Pro, Lotus, Paradox, Corel Draw, SAS.
   USDA FOREST SERVICE/ NORTH CENTRAL EXPERIMENT STATION
   Rhinelander, Wisconsin
   Position: Biological Technician
   Began: 05/1990, Ended: 01/1992
   Duties: My duties included biological monitoring of an endangered 
   bird species found in the Pine Barrens of Lower Michigan.  I 
   trapped threatened and endangered turtle species and helped in the
   design of a wildlife database.  I was required to keep detailed 
   field notes and enter data into a computer spreadsheet.   
   THE NATURE CONSERVANCY:  WISCONSIN CHAPTER
   Madison, Wisconsin
   Position: Bird Surveyor
   Began: 05/1989, Ended: 08/1989
   Duties: I designed a research project to gathered base-line data 
   on breeding birds found in a number of habitat types. Other duties
   included mapping and classifying habitats by air
   photo interpretation.
   UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN GREEN BAY
   Green Bay, Wisconsin
   Position: Research Assistant
   Began: 05/1988, Ended: 08/1989
   Duties: My duties included biological monitoring using vocal and 
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>While I do agree that requiring a Chinese grad. student to teach one more class
>doesn't solve the communication problem, you must remember that Chinese
> students pay NO United States income tax!!!! (I think the same is true for 
>graduate students from Spain!).
>
>How fair is that?
I think that is opening up a different can of soup...but the chinese get
a tax break because any US citizen who went to China will most certainly
be extended similar benefits.  BTW, I think this no tax business stops
after 3 years, no matter what treaty exists between the two countries.
ratty

Dave Jensen (davej@sedona.net) wrote:
: Thanks for this post. It was genuine and filled with a perspective that
: gets lost in all the discussion about up-or-down job markets.
C'mon Dave!  You can't use "anecdotal evidence" to back your claims for 
there being jobs available to people wanting to enter the field of "biology".
It was a nice post, but that's ALL it was.  Just because one guy gets to 
pursue what he likes and get paid for it, doesn't mean everyone who likes 
to "study" things will be granted the privilege.
;)

On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, Dave Jensen wrote:
> In article ,
> "Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
> 
> >Their personnel departments get these CVs and may store them for future
> >use. I don't know if some of them might not pass those around internally
> >to lab heads, section heads, etc., who "say" they might recruit, but might
> >actually just be "spying" on the available pool of scientists to see what
> >they are up to. I've seen some of this done, already.
> >
> >> ratty
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >
> >Art Sowers
> 
> 
> 
> This is common practice in all industries. Companies run ads in recruitment
> sections called "Image ads" which are more to advise their own people what
> a great place they work in than to recruit new people. I wouldn't think it
> is in any way reflective of something sleazy at SCIENCE.
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
One person (i.e. you) can designate something as non-sleazy, but as far as
I am concerned, when an organization begins to apply efforts that begin to
look more like the exploitation of hype, modern marketing hoopla, and
grandstanding on the internet, I can only conclude that a lot of the
original purpose is losing its validity. The AAAS perhaps should be
renamed the American Association for the Advancement of the AAAS.
You, on the other hand, have conveniently (for your argument) deleted the
part of my text which deals with the reason why I made the statement that
I made. I hope other readers noticed this.
Art

In article <32B7EB19.395C@networx.on.ca>, bic@networx.on.ca wrote:
>A complete tep by step detailed report on how to prepare for your next
>job interview.  Send $5 Cheque, M.O., or Cash
>First Impressions Consulting
>1424 Columbia Cres.,
>Burlington, Ontario
>L7M 3G5 Canada
>Include your email
WHATEVER YOU DO . . . . 
Don't send money away for stuff like this when specific information of the
same sort, much more keyed into science careers, is already available on
places like Bio Online, Franklin Group, etc. --- and in all the places that
Art Sower's mentions in his public interest "sig box."
Dave Jensen (Bio Online address below)
http://www.bio.com/hr/search/search_1.html

In <595ut7$2bu@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Steven Foister
 writes: 
>
>Firstly, I am British and a well qualified metallurgist/materials 
>scientist with five years industry experience. I found that I could
make 
>50% more money as an unqualified and inexperienced buyer of
electronics 
>than in my chosen profession.
>Scientists (and to a lesser extent engineers) in the UK are expected
to 
>enjoy there work, and therefore do not need to be paid. Germany is the
>best payer in Europe for technical staff.
>
I believe that the liberal immigration laws have kept salaries 
down and discourage qualified Americans from pursuing scientific
careers. 
Scientific careers don't offer the prospects of a middle class 
standard of living. 
>As regards the international jobs market. My question to all the US 
>isolationists is: do you believe that employing good, well qualified 
>scientists/engineers is good for a company? If so, and if the US is
able 
>to select the best internationally, it will help US industry compete 
>internationally.
>
Why should the American taxpayer pay for the training of future 
legions of foreign engineers.  
>Employing good scientists/engineers will improve industrial
performance, 
>and so increase demand. There is no national allocation of jobs, of 
>which the US, or the UK, has a fixed proportion. It is down to 
>competition. To compete internationally, you have to hire the best 
>internationally.
>
It does not follow that improving industrial performance will 
increase demand for scientists/engineers. 
>Some perverse comments have also been made on training. The majority
of 
>the imported professionals will be extremely well trained (at the 
>expense of their previous country or employer), and are more likely to
>provide training in their new environment than require it. The US (or 
>other importing country) is actually the beneficiary here - gaining
all 
>that training for free! It is in the rest of the world that we suffer 
>the 'brain drain'.
>
This is predicated on the assumption that all foreign graduate 
students are exceptional.  I would be quite happy to go back 
to early 1960's where Ph.D.'s graduating classes were approx. 
10% foreigner.  Recent Ph.D. Physics graduating classes are 
approx. 40% non-U.S. nationals. 
40% is more than enough. 
>I have looked at positions in the US which pay three times the 
>corresponding British technical salary, and for several of which I was
>the best qualified candidate. However, the employer decided to go for
a 
>local US candidate to save the hassle of bringing in someone from 
>abroad.
>I can understand that position - indeed, I have some reluctance to
move 
>to the US, it is just the $$ persuading me - but its predominance
should 
>be worrying, as it will surely only lead to the US falling 
>technologically further behind Japan, Europe, and the rest of the
world.
>
The decline of the Romans was due to the over-reliance on 
non-Romans to do the dirty work.  The salient fact is that 
young Americans are deciding not to pursue engineering/scientific
careers due to poor job prospects. 
Why not re-allocate some of the Ph.D. training budget 
-( which would increase the quality of Ph.D graduates ) - 
to post-doc programs
-( which would increase job opportunities ) - .
>As for myself, well I took that commercial job within the UK. But I 
>haven't turned my back on science. I keep in touch, do a little 
>moonlight consultancy, and would go back to R&D; like a shot if I could
>avoid the salary cut.
>
>(anyone looking for an aerospace metallurgist, with experience of NDE 
>and mathematical modelling, currently working in Procurement?)
>
>Steve Foister
>
If R & D is difficult to find then why continue to produce 
more and more unemployed/underemployed Ph.D.'s?
------------------------------------------------
Steve Hohs
serc.ada@ix.netcom.com

> In article <32B7EB19.395C@networx.on.ca>, bic@networx.on.ca wrote:
> 
> >A complete tep by step detailed report on how to prepare for your next
> >job interview.  Send $5 Cheque, M.O., or Cash
> >First Impressions Consulting
> >1424 Columbia Cres.,
> >Burlington, Ontario
> >L7M 3G5 Canada
> >Include your email
> 
> 
I'll bet the first "tep" in preparing for the job search is not to have
any typos in your resume.
Doug Turnbull

On Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:01:13 -0500, First Impressions Consulting
 wrote:
>A complete tep by step detailed report on how to prepare for your next
>job interview.  Send $5 Cheque, M.O., or Cash
Don't waste your time.  Do a search at Lycos, AltaVista, Yahoo,
WebCrawler etc. etc. on "interview*" first.  Then read the
misc.jobs.offered FAQ.  If you need more help, go to a bookstore
and/or talk with some of your colleagues who have interviewed
recently. Ask them for pointers.
Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
Principal
FSG Online - Careers in Science, Biotechnology and Medicine
http://www.chemistry.com