Newsgroup sci.research.careers 14215

Directory

Doug wrote;
> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "derivative" and "blue sky"
> research. Certainly work is limited to what there is funding for. But
> there's an awful lot of funding availible, and a lot of it goes towards
> basic science projects. Probably at least half of the research done in
> physics departments has no clear relation to any possible applications.
> Some people are interested in doing applied research, others aren't.
> There's money for both (although more jobs for the former.)
> 
> Doug Turnbull
Hi Doug,
	By blue sky research, I meant work that is totally out of the
blue and not closely tied to a PI's grant or a department chair's
program.  I meant individual work as opposed to Manhatten style projects.
The excellent work at NIST and MIT on the Bose Einsten condensate,
and the work on quantum optics might fit into this category.  At least
is was done on the cheap and may have been possible to do with a lower
level of scrutiny.  However, does anyone have a discretionary 
budget these days?  In my opinion, there are huge holes in the fabric
of scientific research. Some people absolutely gravitate to these empty places 
which are in fact intersting just because they represent ungrazed pasture.  It seems
most people take the band wagon approach however.  Is that by
preference, wishy washyness, or need?
Regards,
Marc Andelman

Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> 
> About the only times a person can have a high degree of control over their
> topic is if the PI/head of the lab just does not care what the student or
> postdoc does OR if the visiting person has his/her own fellowship (or
> other support via a stipend). 
But since most fellowships only cover stipend and tuition, *someone* 
still has to pay for any equipment and supplies that are needed for the 
research, furnish the physical space, and pay for utilities and other 
"overhead" costs.  So even if you bring your own salary in the form of a 
fellowship, you'll still have to get a professor to "buy in" to the 
research you want to do....  
Becky

Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> And, then what do you do when ten years worth of your work happens to be
> barking up the wrong tree? Wrong hypothesis? Its more common than you
> think.
> 
> I'm dead serious about this.
And what about the grad student who work on it who no longer has a
thesis topic after 7 years of that 10? Every once in a while there's a
news story about a grad student who went postal and killed his/her
adviser and some other faculty, usually after spending way too long on a
project that crashed and burned. 
The need to get results so students can get a degree, combined with the
need to get results to satisfy the administration and funding agencies
is why a lot of research projects are not as "blue-sky" as some people
may want. If industry won't pursue a line of research because it won't
turn a profit can't academia have it's own reasoning on whether or not
to investigate something?
-- 
Kurt Oldenburg                      | "Don't you have any
compassion!?"         
University of Illinois              | "No...that's why they hired me."
Dept of Analytical Chemistry        |  
E-Mail: oldenbrg@bozo.scs.uiuc.edu  |           K.E.O. - Summerfest '96

SYMPOSIUM ON ENVIRONMENTAL TRAINING - CALL FOR KEY-NOTE SPEAKERS
Eco Counselling Europe, the European umbrella organisation of national 
environmental 
counselling associations, has been commissioned by the Austrian Ministry 
for the 
Environment to take part in the design and running of a symposium 
entitled:
"QUALIFICATIONS IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL SECTOR - MARKET OPPORTUNITIES"
The symposium will be held on 19 March '97 in VIENNA, Austria.
The symposium will primarily focus on the question whether and in what 
form better 
professional qualifications in the environmental protection field do 
enhance chances and 
opportunities on the labour market. We are particularly interested in new 
and innovative 
forms of environmental training which have a track record of success on 
the market, new 
professions and areas of expertise which increase personal opportunities, 
examples and 
case-studies which demonstrate how environmental qualifications have 
influenced socio-
economic developments, curricula and educational approaches in 
environmental science 
and conservation at all professional and academic levels.
To achieve the best possible coverage of different approaches, models and 
forms of 
environmental training as they relate to the above areas of interest, we 
are looking for 
several key-note speakers for the above symposium. Speakers should have 
considerable 
experience in the field, ideally in the areas of environmental science 
curricula, 
environmental training programmes, or the link between environmental 
qualifications and 
market chances. We particularly encourage experts who have hands-on 
experiences and 
can present several case-studies to forward a tender.
In exchange for an appropriately professional fee, speakers will be 
required to give a 45-
minute presentation and participate in one or two workshops of not more 
than 2-hours 
duration each. All costs (return travel to Vienna, hotel-accommodation, 
etc.) will, of course, 
by covered by the organisers.
Please contact us with a short outline of your professional background 
and experiences in 
the environmental field, the proposed title of your presentation and any 
other relevant 
information which may be of interest in the context of the above 
symposium.
We look forward to hearing from you
Regards
Thomas Schlacher, PhD
PLEASE RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE CONTACT NUMBERS BELOW AND NOT TO 
THE NEWSGROUP - THANK YOU
Eco Counselling Europe
Vienna Office
Mariahilferstr. 89/29
A-1060 Vienna, Austria
Fax +43 1 5877393 18    Voice: +43 1 5877393-0
E-mail: EcoCounselling.Europe@blackbox.at
PLEASE RESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE CONTACT NUMBERS BELOW AND NOT TO 
THE NEWSGROUP - THANK YOU

> Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> > 
> > About the only times a person can have a high degree of control over their
> > topic is if the PI/head of the lab just does not care what the student or
> > postdoc does OR if the visiting person has his/her own fellowship (or
> > other support via a stipend). 
I'm afraid I disagree.  I've known several PI's who were delighted to find
students who proposed their own work.  It does have to have something to
do with the PI's funding, but we all know how square boxes can be fit into
round holes when there is a need.
-Troy

In article <32BA65A1.603A@lanl.gov>, "Rebecca M. Chamberlin"
 wrote:
> Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> > 
> > About the only times a person can have a high degree of control over their
> > topic is if the PI/head of the lab just does not care what the student or
> > postdoc does OR if the visiting person has his/her own fellowship (or
> > other support via a stipend). 
> 
> But since most fellowships only cover stipend and tuition, *someone* 
> still has to pay for any equipment and supplies that are needed for the 
> research, furnish the physical space, and pay for utilities and other 
> "overhead" costs.  So even if you bring your own salary in the form of a 
> fellowship, you'll still have to get a professor to "buy in" to the 
> research you want to do....  
> 
That's certainly true, but graduate students also have a lot of choice in
choosing which professor to work for, so you can pick one who's already
doing things you are interested in. You'll probably be disappointed if you
have one very particular project that you absolutely *have* to work on,
but I haven't met any grad students who knew that specifically what they
wanted to do, so I'm not sure that's really an issue.
Doug Turnbull

Not everyone finds graduate school a harrowing experience.  I found it
quite enjoyable, and it seems to me that so did most of my fellow
mathematics graduate students at Princeton in the early 1950s.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

jmc@Steam.stanford.edu  writes:
> Not everyone finds graduate school a harrowing experience.  I found it
> quite enjoyable, and it seems to me that so did most of my fellow
> mathematics graduate students at Princeton in the early 1950s.
Might one inquire as to the teaching load, funding, and
expected work schedule of your cohort?  [For comparison:
average workload in a recent survey here was over 70 hours per
week **in addition to** teaching duties; funding hovers around
$10k or a little more]
-- 
Ewan McNay - ewan@virginia.edu / (804) 984-1694 or 982-4753 (lab)
Gamer/socialist/neuroscientist/cook (not necessarily in that order)
I didn't believe in reincarnation last time, either.

In article , jmc@Steam.stanford.edu (John McCarthy) says:
>
>Not everyone finds graduate school a harrowing experience.  I found it
>quite enjoyable, and it seems to me that so did most of my fellow
>mathematics graduate students at Princeton in the early 1950s.
>
Indeed grad school does not have to be harrowing, and it should not
be harrowing.  The key here is selecting your major prof with great
care.  Have the wisdom to make sure the prof has research money,
a reputation
in the field, a reputation as someone who takes care of students and
cares about students.  Make sure he/she is neither young and immature
or over the hill (mentally,not chronologically).  
Select your entire committee with care.  
Be alert to the meaning of any bad vibes you have and get out early
if things are not going right.
The major professor is the most important relationship you will have
with anyone in your life, excepting your immediate family.
This relationship determines your professional and economic future.
Chose with great care.
The bell curve hold true for major profs.  1% walk on water, 1% are
hopeless psychopaths.  In between are every conceivable personality
type and every conceivable character flaw.  
I was extraordinarily fortunate that my prof. was a highly respected
person of great personal and moral integrity.  He was a mature family
man who cherished his relationships with his students and with others.
A couple of years after I graduated I telephoned the Grad Dean and
nominated him for the honor, Distinguished Professor.  He never knew
I did that for him and I am glad to have done it anonymously.  He
passed away this last year after living a long and full life. I'll miss
hearing from him this holiday season.
I think one of the reasons I am so vociferous about bad professors who
screw their students is the fact that mine was not like that, and the
contrast is obvious.

brett rowley (brett3@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Donald,
: Sure they will, if:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Substitute "they will" with "there's a possibility that they might" and I 
agree with you.
: They have the tenacity, the fortitude, the ability, the willingness to
: sacrifice creature comforts (including good pay) of working at a "real"
: job, and most especially the desire.  
: The problem I see with lots of young people initially interested in
: biology, or any science, is they are not willing to "stick it out" while
: they watch their cohorts make more money and climb the ladder of social
: acceptance and financial success. 
That too is an important part of life (this is a capital-driven economy).
 The ones that make it are willing to
: start at the bottom, even though they be well educated and armed with a
: sheepskin from a prestigious institution.
But they need to get hired first.  Not matter how good and tenacious one 
might be, someone's got to hire them do do the work.  Most places are 
REDUCING research postions or favouring temporary/contract staff.  Not 
all that conducive to building a future for the "newbies".
  They will have to work side by
: side with the common laborors, many times for less pay until someone
: recognizes their ambition and desire.  The ones that work on the night
: oxygen crew at a southern catfish farm, the ones that work the seining
: crew, in the hatchery cleaning up slop and goo in the incubators, and all
: the similar situations in any of the life science related industries.  
: Few will start as the boss, or as the numero uno scientifico of the bunch.
: Most will toil at the bottom of the heap, paying their dues prior to
: advancing in their profession.  Most will give up and take a more
: traditional position that offers more pay and benefits, if less
: opportunity to do what they want, to "study".  It is not a question of
: "if" there are jobs for biologists, rather a question of "How much does
: it pay?" and "What are the benefits?" as well as "Will I have to get
: that dirty everyday?" 
Sometimes people can't even find THOSE bottom end jobs...
: There are jobs for biologists, if they are willing to work at them. 
: Otherwise, uneducated, yet very skilled laborors will be taking those
: jobs and be damned glad to have them.  
Most places don't want to hire the highly educated for the lower end jobs 
'cause they presume the employee would demand a higher wage regardless of 
what the person would actually settle for. 
: If the young biologist does manage to "stick it out" he or she may
: never be wealthy (I know that I am certainly not) in terms of money,
: but rich in terms of being satisfied that their job gives them what
: they need out of it, except for maybe lots of money.  
And how about raising a family, owning a home and saving for retirement?
You're not talking about building a career, you're talking about being a 
martyr to a cause.
;)

Time Evolution in Complex Systems
                                        April 1 to 14, 1997
                                  Summer School, Oeiras, Portugal 
This Summer School is part of a program on time evolution in complex
systems which is promoted by the Institute for Scientific
and Technological Advanced Studies - Portugal (ISTAS - Portugal). 
Recent progress in the field of dynamic processes in materials is
reported from different theoretical and experimental
perspectives. Theoretical descriptions relate to inhomogeneous systems,
phase transitions, phase ordering dynamics, pattern
formation and time-dependent density functionals. The main experimental
tools are X- ray/neutron diffraction, spectroscopic
and laser techniques. Applications are in the field of advanced material
sciences. 
Topics
     Statistical mechanics of surfaces and interfaces 
     Metal surfaces 
     Defect structures 
     Strain related microstructures 
     Computer simulations of mesoscopic structures 
     Structural phase transitions in metals 
     Phase transitions and optical spectroscopy 
     Phase ordering dynamics 
     Time dependent density functionals 
     Complex pattern dynamics 
Invited Lecturers
     A. J. Bray (University of Manchester, UK) 
     Ulrich Bismayer (Universitaet Hamburg, Germany) 
     Carlos Fiolhais (Universidade de Coimbra, Portugal) 
     Alain Gibaud (Université du Maine, France) 
     Eberhardt Gross (University of Wuerzburg, Germany) 
     Armen Khachaturyan (Rutgers University, USA) (to be confirmed) 
     Adam Kiejna (University of Wroclaw, Poland) 
     Ekhard Salje (University of Cambridge, UK) 
     Maxi San Miguel (Universidad de las Islas Baleares, Spain) 
     Franz. Schwabl (Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany) 
     Margarida Telo da Gama (Universidade de Lisboa, Portugal) 
     Igor. Tsatskis (University of Cambridge, UK) 
     Wim van Saarloos (Leiden University, The Netherlands) 
Organizing Commitee
     Ekhard Salje (Cambridge, UK) 
     Carlos Fiolhais (Coimbra, Portugal) 
Correspondence Address
        Summer School April 1997
        ISTAS - Portugal
        Quinta da Nora, Apartado 3028
        3000 Coimbra
        Portugal
        Tel: +351-39-700937
        Fax: +351-39-700912
        E-Mail: istas@ipn.uc.pt
Format
Two or three lectures will be held each day, together with informal
discussions and poster presentations by the participants. 
Important Deadlines
     Application for Grants: January 15, 1997 
     Summer School registration: February 15, 1997 
     Abstract submission: March 15, 1997 
Grants
A number of grants will be available for participants from EU countries.
These grants will be preferentially given to young
participants (graduate students, post-docs, etc.) Applications including
a short C.V. (with a list of publications) should be sent
to the address given above. The deadline for grant application is
January 15, 1997. 
The applicants will be notified before February 15, 1997 by E-mail or
fax whether their applications were successful. 
Registration
Please complete the enclosed registration form and return it to the
Summer School secretariat before February 15, 1997. 
Fees
Please follow the payment instructions given on the form. 
The registration fees for the Summer School are as follows: 
     Regular, before February 15, 1997 US dollars 300 
     Regular, after February 15, 1997 US dollars 400 
Submission of Abstracts
Contributions on the Summer-School topics will be accepted for
presentation in poster form. Authors should submit an
abstract to the program committee. The deadline is March 15, 1997. 
They will be notified before March 31, 1997 by E-mail or fax whether
their abstracts have been accepted. 
Social Program
A number of social events for participants and their companions will be
offered throughout the Summer-School period (e.g.,
dinner and visits to historical sites in and near Lisbon). 
Hotel Accommodation
Tentative advance reservations will be made by the organizing committee.
Participants should complete the corresponding
information in the registration form. 
Oeiras and how to reach it
Oeiras is located by the river Tejo about 10 km west from Lisbon. There
are railway connections from Cais do Sodré station
in Lisbon to Oeiras. The organizing committee will arrange bus transport
from and to the Lisbon Airport. 
Maps of the region and city of Oeiras 
Summer School site
The meeting will be held at the Instituto de Tecnologia Química e
Biológica in Oeiras. 
Summer School sponsors
This Summer School is financed by the the European Commission and ISTAS
- Portugal and cosponsored by: 
     Câmara Municipal de Oeiras 
     European Science Foundation 
     Fundação Calouste Gulbenkian 
     Fundação Luso Americana para o Desenvolvimento 
     Instituto de Tecnologia Química e Biológica 
     Ministério da Ciência e Tecnologia 
ISTAS - Portugal, istas@ipn.uc.pt 
Oct 22, 1996 
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________
Name:  Ismael  Santos
Organization:  I.S.T.A.S.- Portugal (Intitute for Scientific
 	                             and Tecnological Advanced 
			             Studies - Portugal)  
I.S.T.A.S. Home Page:  Http://www.ipn.uc.pt/~istas
I.S.T.A.S. E-mail Address:  istas@ipn.uc.pt
Personal Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~IsmaelSantos/index.html
Personal E-mail Address:  Ismaail @mail.telepac.pt                     
_______________________________________________________________________

Don Martin wrote:
> Just because one guy gets to pursue what he likes and gets paid for it, doesn't mean everyone who likes to "study" things will be granted the privilege.
> 
This is basically true, but Don seems to want to teach, "Don't reach for
your dreams, because you probably can't fulfill them."  Since his post
comes from the U. of Guelph, I guess he's in Academia, and if he is,
what kind of education is he getting/giving?  Would he have all who
aspire (to reach any goal) not try because there's a chance (even a good
one) that they'll be disappointed?  I think that's just a little too
pessimistic (and even defeatist).
Dave Jensen, if you read this post, all you have to do is bust your
hump, learn the material, and seek out your place in biology.  Just know
going in that few make the big bucks, but most of us are comfortable and
(most of all) happy.
Phil S.   U. of California 1976
	  U. of Washington 1979

jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
>Not everyone finds graduate school a harrowing experience.  I found it
>quite enjoyable, and it seems to me that so did most of my fellow
>mathematics graduate students at Princeton in the early 1950s.
Perhaps things have changed some since you were a graduate student?  For
example, was the unemployment rate for new PhD's in mathematics at 13%
when you graduated?  
I'd agree that some students are certainly enjoying themselves, but the 
majority of PhD candidates that I've talked to recently are worried about
whether or not they will ever have a career in anything remotely related
to mathematics.  
-- 
Brian Borchers                              borchers@nmt.edu
Department of Mathematics                   http://www.nmt.edu/~borchers/
New Mexico Tech                             Phone: 505-835-5813
Socorro, NM 87801                           FAX: 505-835-5366

On Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:10:11 -0700, davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
wrote:
>In article <32b9708f.2319730@news.halcyon.com>, DrHeasley@Chemistry.com
>(Frank) wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:17:06 -0700, davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article ,
>>>"Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Their personnel departments get these CVs and may store them for future
>>>>use. I don't know if some of them might not pass those around internally
>>>>to lab heads, section heads, etc., who "say" they might recruit, but might
>>>>actually just be "spying" on the available pool of scientists to see what
>>>>they are up to. I've seen some of this done, already.
>>>>
>>>>> ratty
>>>>> 
>>>>Art Sowers
>>>
>>>This is common practice in all industries. Companies run ads in recruitment
>>>sections called "Image ads" which are more to advise their own people what
>>>a great place they work in than to recruit new people. I wouldn't think it
>>>is in any way reflective of something sleazy at SCIENCE.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>Actually, I think it does border on sleazy.  It may not be outright
>>dishonest, but advertising your company in an employment section
>>usually indicates that you're looking for people.  If the fact is that
>>you have no open positions, then the advertisement should be placed
>>elsewhere.
>>
>>Frank
>
>Frank
>
>I think that Art was talking about the companies in SCIENCE who are in the
>employment sections during the big issues with a focus on jobs. 
>
>These companies run large ads, ie Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Schering,
>Genentech, etc.  This is ALWAYS done, in EVERY industry. I am not defending
>the process of running image ads, I am simply stating that there is an
>awful lot of naivety here if you guys say that there is something wrong
>with this. 
>
>Pick up any other industry's trade journal, and you'll see the same thing.
>In computers, for example, you'll see a double-page add for Symantec and
>read in the same issue that they laid off 100 people. Strange? Yes! But, a
>way of American industry. Image counts for these large employers.
>
>
>Dave
I'm quite aware of the practise, and I find it deplorable.  If image
counts for anything for these corporations, it is quite unseemly that
they publish such grandiose advertisements while in the midst of
laying off their currently harvested batch of science workers, in
order to make room for the next crop.
I think this is just one example of the extensive disregard for the
truth that pervades our current academic and industry work
environments.
I agree, this is "a way of American Industry".  Pretty sad, isn't it?
Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
Principal
FSG Online - Careers in Science, Biotechnology and Medicine
http://www.chemistry.com

Scientific Advisor CNS & CVS
Our client, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies worldwide, 
has mandated us to recruit two Medical Advisors.  The incumbents 
will be implicated in all scientific aspects of the research and in 
providing support to the clinical research.
Incumbents will assist head of Medical Advisor Group in establishing
objectives and strategies. Will provide scientific and medical 
support to the Business Unit and evaluate the scientific basis of 
clinical research projects.                                         
We are looking for scientific people with a Ph.D. in Pharmacology or
equivalent with approximatly  3 years of experience, preferably one 
specialized in CNS and one in CVS.  We will also consider 
MD's.Clinical trial experience in industry an asset, but not 
mandatory. Compensation between $70 000 and $90 000 per year.  
Incumbents entitled to all company benefits.
If you are interested in obtaining more information, please contact 
Marlene Harris at 1-800-261-3204 or send your resume in reference to
file n* 96-154.
-- 
Dion

>>
>> If neither the university nor inventor take title, the Government can 
>> choose to patent.  In this case, they may request that publication be 
>> witheld until a patent is filed, although I'm not absoultely sure about 
>> that.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
>> 
>> Some government agencies take the Bayh-Dole Act very seriously.  DOE is 
>> one that does.  Not only do they monitor whether intellectual property 
>> results from an invention, they evaluate publications AND patents 
>> applied for in considering project renewals.  They view a lack of patent 
>> applications negatively.
>> 
>> Jack H. Pincus
>> jhpincus@cris.com
>> 
>
>
>> The founding fathers never intented government to take on
>such a large role in society.  
[snip]
>  Ever since the tragic day at Appomatox, the feds
>have been grabbing for power. 
>
>
>				Marc Andelman
OK, my two cents,
Patents make the world go round (or so it seems in biotechnology!)
Patents drive research. 
Look at "the books" of any pharmaceutical company and you see a lot of money 
at risk on a project whose outcome is, well, ... unknown.
That's research!
Patents motivate and reward. 
True, not everyone agrees that the rewards are passed out fair.
True, everyone agrees that patents motivate (individuals and industry).
Patents also make it clear how the inventor preformed or produced the little 
"miracle" that is subject to patent. 
Disclouser is required and then rewarded by the patent.
BUT....(on the other hand)....
I believe
Government funded research should instantly "belong to the governement" in a 
patent. 
If the government simply owned all patents produced by government expenditure, 
then government would be rewarded for funding it!
Of course, research funded from multiple sources would have to be negotiated.
If you are a company and you fund the research with government grants, the 
government deserves a share of the patent in proportion to its investment. 
If you fund it all on your own, you own the patent.
What could be more fair?
What's wrong with governments "owning" patents?! 
It means "the people" own it.
They must disclose it all to get the patent.
And they want to make money with the patent, so they will be happy to promote 
and sell it.
(I heard a rumor that the government needed money. Did you hear that? It's 
only just a rumor; I don't mean to be paranoid or something. Maybe they have 
all the money they want. Maybe all in the world! I don't know. Hmmm...)
A properly funded patenting "machine" could be the future of government funded 
research.
My "solution" for government funded research and patents would return to 
society the fruits of its investment in education and infrastructure that 
produced the patent.
Of course the universities and "individual inventors" (yeah, right) would not 
like this; but then they would hate it, wouldn't they? 
Besides, they are hardly in a position to argue!
"No we won't take your grant money under those conditions. We'll just make do 
with..."
(Who knows, some might actualy start teaching again!)
: - )
I'm worried the American Research Machine
(the "technological arm of the USA", get it!)
is running out of steam. 
Patents might keep it moving.
Dr Jamie Love (PhD, MBA)
Scientist for Hire
"Life is my business"
http://homepages.enterprise.net/jamie/sci4hire
email jamie@enterprise.net

In article  ecm5f@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Ewan) writes:
 > 
 > jmc@Steam.stanford.edu  writes:
 > > Not everyone finds graduate school a harrowing experience.  I found it
 > > quite enjoyable, and it seems to me that so did most of my fellow
 > > mathematics graduate students at Princeton in the early 1950s.
 > 
 > Might one inquire as to the teaching load, funding, and
 > expected work schedule of your cohort?  [For comparison:
 > average workload in a recent survey here was over 70 hours per
 > week **in addition to** teaching duties; funding hovers around
 > $10k or a little more]
 > -- 
 > Ewan McNay - ewan@virginia.edu / (804) 984-1694 or 982-4753 (lab)
 > Gamer/socialist/neuroscientist/cook (not necessarily in that order)
 > 
 > I didn't believe in reincarnation last time, either.
Most of us were veterans and at least partly financed by the GI bill.
Some of us later got fellowships.  I didn't teach, but I did translate
a book on differential equations from Russian as part of an
assistantship.  I have no idea how many hours I worked.  When I
arrived, the Department Chairman said I should start thinking about a
thesis, so I did.  It wasn't a great thesis, but it took only two
years.
-- 
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

In <59esbo$f37@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca> donaldma@uoguelph.ca (Donald
Martin) writes: 
>
>brett rowley (brett3@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Donald,
>
>: Sure they will, if:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Substitute "they will" with "there's a possibility that they might" and I 
>agree with you.
OK

>
>That too is an important part of life (this is a capital-driven economy).
Lots of us get by on a little.  
>
> The ones that make it are willing to
>: start at the bottom, even though they be well educated and armed with a
>: sheepskin from a prestigious institution.
>
>But they need to get hired first.  Not matter how good and tenacious one 
>might be, someone's got to hire them do do the work.  Most places are 
>REDUCING research postions or favouring temporary/contract staff.  Not 
>all that conducive to building a future for the "newbies".
I wasn't restricting a biologist's lot to research, lots are involved in
production and other aspects of our economy.
 " 
>
>Sometimes people can't even find THOSE bottom end jobs...
They are out there, hard to find, maybe, probably not something you will
find by net surfing.
>
>
>: There are jobs for biologists, if they are willing to work at them. 
>: Otherwise, uneducated, yet very skilled laborors will be taking those
>: jobs and be damned glad to have them.  
>
>Most places don't want to hire the highly educated for the lower end jobs 
>'cause they presume the employee would demand a higher wage regardless of 
>what the person would actually settle for. 
In this you are correct, I don't know how many times I've heard the words
"You are overqualified for this position."  However, I've hired PhD's and
didn't know it till I'd gotten to know the person on the work site.
>
>
>: If the young biologist does manage to "stick it out" he or she may
>: never be wealthy (I know that I am certainly not) in terms of money,
>: but rich in terms of being satisfied that their job gives them what
>: they need out of it, except for maybe lots of money.  
>
>And how about raising a family, owning a home and saving for retirement?
Two out of three ain't bad.  
>
>You're not talking about building a career, you're talking about being
a 
>martyr to a cause.
Maybe you're right here also.  But I have faith and confidence that the
cause will yeild to the career at some point.
>
>;)
Brett Rowley
Fisheries Biologist
Great Lakes Sportfishing Resort and Koi Breeding Farm
West Columbia, Texas
http://waterscapes.com

Dr Jamie Love wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> What's wrong with governments "owning" patents?!
What is wrong with the government owing your business, house, job, 
means of sustenance, school, church, etc.?
Look, I agree totally that "privately" funded instututions can patent
if they want , and if they see that as a source of revenue.  However,
let's look at what this does to the academic institutions;
1. Isolates acaemia, and pits them against private industry. Putting stuff into the 
public domain is very desireable to industry, especially when industry holds
a broad patent.  Universities ought to be able to make some decent money and
do a service by publishing derivative work , to prevent people from patenting
nit picking details.  This would serve to funnel know how to universities,,
where they can fulfill their orignal role as conservators of knoweldge.
2.Government patents are a step in the direction to wrest and socialize
the very power of initiative away from individuals.  Individual inventors
should not have to be acceptable to a commitee, peers, or admissisions
at a university in order to pursue ideas and develop businesses. Every tax
dollar that goes to such government patents is from indivudual's
pockets and only validates the elite bureacrats.
Regards,
Marc Andelman

Pradip Kumar Das            Permanent Resident                          
pkd@umr.edu
Being the first author undergraduate research was presented at the 
20th International Conference of Physics of Semiconductors
Looking for a Numerical Computation Position

Richard! 
Dont leave us in suspense! How about spilling the beans on this?
I'm a sucker for book reviews (and reviewed books) especially if the
author has something significant-profound to say.
What did the book review say?
Art
=== no change to below, included for reference and context ====
On Thu, 19 Dec 1996 richardz@cy-net.net wrote:
> I just stumbled on a book review of  Terrence Kealey's
> book, The Economic Laws of Scientific Research. Macmillan.
> 
> The review was in, "The Economist" and
> I have no idea if the book is available here in the U.S.A.
> 
> From the review it sounds like it could be a good read
> for those of us who hang out at src.  I think Marc A.
> would probably find something appealing in the thesis of the
> book.
> 
> Anyone read it yet? Anyone know if it is available here?
> 
> 
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>       http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
> 
> 

On 19 Dec 1996, ratnakar amaravadi wrote:
> >I think that Art was talking about the companies in SCIENCE who are in the
> >employment sections during the big issues with a focus on jobs. 
> >
> >These companies run large ads, ie Bristol-Myers Squibb, Merck, Schering,
> >Genentech, etc.  This is ALWAYS done, in EVERY industry. I am not defending
> >the process of running image ads, I am simply stating that there is an
> >awful lot of naivety here if you guys say that there is something wrong
> >with this. 
> 
> C'mon dave. If there is nothing wrong with it why don't you defend it.
> You are claiming not to defend "Image Ads", and if somebody says there
> is some thing wrong with "Image Ads", then you say it is naviety.  I see
> a contradiction  here.  
> 
> 
> >Pick up any other industry's trade journal, and you'll see the same thing.
> >In computers, for example, you'll see a double-page add for Symantec and
> >read in the same issue that they laid off 100 people. Strange? Yes! But, a
> >way of American industry. Image counts for these large employers.
> 
> Image or no Image :  If I can prove in a court of law that if a
> company advertised positions knowing fully well that they had
> no positions available, then I am certain any jury will find
> the company guilty of unethical conduct, and will award me 
> damages.  The above practice simply amounts to taking innocent 
> bystanders for a ride.  
> 
> ratty
> 
ratty,
The "law" that you and I "know" or believe in, is not the "law" practiced
by the legal profession. What you said sounds reasonable, but there is no
relationship between what is ethical/moral and what is legal. I am not a
lawyer, but you will pay a lot of money to get a lawyer to explain to you
that there is nothing illegal about advertising the availability of
positions and yet the fact that no postions were available. A legal case
can "unfold" in a manner which can convert contradictions into incomplete
situations. Another "angle" here is that you will have no case against
that company since there is no breach of contract. One issue if you want
to bring a case against a company that advertises positions but really has
non is that you have to show that you have been hurt in some way by this. 
Large companies spend large amounts of money on their legal departments to
make sure what they say does not get them into legal trouble and then use 
that around which to market to us munchkins out here on the street. Most
of this work is geared primarily to benefit the company, first, and be in
compliance with any laws where they might get hurt, if they might not be
in compliance with the law, or else the work is geared to write documents
in a manner that takes a particular situation out of the domain of what a
law covers.
Art

>In <595ut7$2bu@gcsin3.geccs.gecm.com> Steven Foister
> writes: 
>>
>>Firstly, I am British and a well qualified metallurgist/materials 
>>scientist with five years industry experience. I found that I could
>make 
>>50% more money as an unqualified and inexperienced buyer of
>electronics 
>>than in my chosen profession.
>>Scientists (and to a lesser extent engineers) in the UK are expected
>to 
>>enjoy there work, and therefore do not need to be paid. Germany is the
>>best payer in Europe for technical staff.
>>
>I believe that the liberal immigration laws have kept salaries 
>down and discourage qualified Americans from pursuing scientific
>careers. 
>Scientific careers don't offer the prospects of a middle class 
>standard of living. 
Gosh, this guy is not reading what his's replying to ;-)
As far as I understand Steven meant UK rather than US...
Anyhow, the discussion smells of: "Go home ye ****ing foreigner. 
You're born in **** and therefore you must die there..."
Well, it's a question of personal freedom I think. 
I cannot do science in my own country. It is financially impossible. Full stop.
Dmitrii,
a russian, an australian (with distinction) PhD, a dutch postdoc.
http://www.can.nl/~pasec

On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, Ken Drew wrote:
> > 
> > It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
> > of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
> > China)
> > less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
> > Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
> > The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
> > they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.  
> 
> 
> While I do agree that requiring a Chinese grad. student to teach one more class
> doesn't solve the communication problem, you must remember that Chinese
>  students pay NO United States income tax!!!! (I think the same is true for 
> graduate students from Spain!).
> 
> How fair is that?
> 
> 
> Thus, it may still be a better deal for the Chinese students when compared
> to American students who must pay income taxes.
> 
> As for the communication issue, each school handles this problem
> differently. Personally, I feel it is unfair to not only the undergraduates
> but the graduate students as well. I had an experience in which I basically
> TA'd two courses because all the students from the lab with the TA who
> could not communicate effectively would come to me for help.
Besides the issue of getting the Chinese students to work at half rate
(two times the workload for the same fee, essentially), there are many 
secondary unwanted and undesired consequences as Ken pointed out. The
students dont get a fair "product" for their time and money, and then they
have to waste their time and the time of another teacher to get their
"product". And, as a means of helping them with their english, this is not
the way to do it. Some foreigners who I knew told me that one of the
easiest ways to learn english was to simply watch our TV programs. The
rest is getting into conversations with the locals. The language problem
is serious and so is the unfairness in these situations.
Art Sowers
> -- 
> Ken
> kdrew@nd.edu
> 
> 

My advisor has been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour. There is
no one else here who I can work with that shares my research interests in
health/medical economics. I believe such incidents do, tragically, occur
every now and then. What can one do in such a situation? Other than
transfer or possibly leave the discipline altogether, there seems to
very little that I can do. 
Any suggestions?
Saurabh

Scientific Advisor CNS & CVS
Our client, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies worldwide, 
has mandated us to recruit two Medical Advisors.  The incumbents 
will be implicated in all scientific aspects of the research and in 
providing support to the clinical research.
Incumbents will assist head of Medical Advisor Group in establishing
objectives and strategies. Will provide scientific and medical 
support to the Business Unit and evaluate the scientific basis of 
clinical research projects.                                         
We are looking for scientific people with a Ph.D. in Pharmacology or
equivalent with approximatly  3 years of experience, preferably one 
specialized in CNS and one in CVS.  We will also consider 
MD's.Clinical trial experience in industry an asset, but not 
mandatory. Compensation between $70 000 and $90 000 per year.  
Incumbents entitled to all company benefits.
If you are interested in obtaining more information, please contact 
Marlene Harris at 1-800-261-3204 or send your resume in reference to
file n* 96-154.
-- 
Dion

Weds, Dec 18, 1996: One of my colleagues emailed me that it would be
better to have posted this on  in the hopes of
bgetting some serious answers. Hence, this re-post will be to SRC and MLM.
Art Sowers
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> 
> To All:
> 
> Earlier today I received the email below, privately, and edited out the
> identity of the author. I am reposting this, and cross posting to
>  in the interests of generating some discussion and reactions.
> I answered the email privately as well. I am leaving out my own reaction
> since a public comment by me would probably be a fair bit longer than the
> actual message and I'd like to have everyone's attention focused on the
> situation described rather than me. If anyone wants to contact the author 
> privately, I'll reveal that persons interest to the author but keep the
> author's identity anonymous, and let the author decide to answer. If
> anyone wants to identify their interest publically, then the author can
> respond to your posting.
> 
> Art Sowers
> 
> ***** below is text minus identifiers ********
> From <-DELETED-> Tue Dec 17 21:08:34 1996
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:18:31 -0700
> From: <-DELETED--->
> To: arthures@access1.digex.net
> Subject: src 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've been lurking in the src newsgroup for a while, and thought you would be
> interested in this.  I am sending this by email rather than posting it
> because I don't think it would be advisable for this to be attributed to me
> or my employer, although it doesn't affect me personally.  You are certainly
> welcome to further use the information without attribution.  
> 
> It has come to my attention that the Chemistry Department at the University
> of <-DELETED-> is paying foreign graduate students from Asia (mostly
> China)
> less money to be teaching assistants than graduate students from the US or
> Europe, while requiring that they teach one more class than the other TAs.
> The rationalization is that their English communication skills are worse, so
> they deserve less pay and simultaneously need more practice.  
> 
> This is obviously unethical and unfair to both the graduate students and the
> undergraduates they're teaching.  However, the University people,
> specifically the Department Chair, obviously feel that they can get away
> with it.  So my question is: do you have any idea whether this practice is
> 1) common at Universities? or 2) legal?  
> 
> Thanks for any info/opinions you may have. 
> 
> ****** end of document but with sig info deleted *****
> 
> 
> 

Saurabh Rastogi wrote:
> 
> My advisor has been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour. There is
> no one else here who I can work with that shares my research interests in
> health/medical economics. I believe such incidents do, tragically, occur
> every now and then. What can one do in such a situation? Other than
> transfer or possibly leave the discipline altogether, there seems to
> very little that I can do.
> Any suggestions?
> Saurabh
I have had one advisior die and two retire on me during my brief 'science career'. 
When this happens you are truly fucked. Unless you have people pulling for you from 
the beginning, your chances of getting an academic position with a PhD are seriously
limited.
-- 
-Garrett

pohl@earthlink.net wrote in article <32B6327E.2126@earthlink.net>...
> Hi, i'm considering going to school to study biology. i would like to
know
>     if there presently are jobs in this field and what is predicted for  
>     years to come. does anyone know of a web site that would be helpful?
>     also, if there are jobs what area are they in?
>     thanks!  
>            mark - please email me with responce to pohl@earthlink.net
> 
	If you specialize in Genetics there are tons in the
	Boston Metro Area ... now! Ten years from now ... who knows?
-- 
Hilton Evans
***********************************************************
The two most important things in life are personal
health and time ... H.Evans 1995
**********************************************************
Chempen+ Chemical Structure Drawing
Software for Windows
http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/hfevans/chempen.htm

First, you need to know how much time they are giving your advisor. This
says something about how much time YOU have to plan and execute whatever
action options you have. This also assumes that your advisor's emotional
state will allow cooperation in your best interests.
Second, if you are pretty dead set on continuing your particular line of
interest, then you need to locate all other faculty who might share that
line of interest (go to library, read journals, xerox paper first pages
with titles, authors, and institutions), AND GO BACK TO YOUR OFFICE AND
SPEND ALL DAY ON THE TELEPHONE CALLING THEM UP AND EXPLAINING THE
SITUATION (all of the situation).
Caveats: A fairly major problem in being a student or postdoc is running
into personality and/or ideological conflicts.  You may be better off in
an area of study where you already know a faculty member with whom you get
along well with. Whenever you make a major change in "environments" you
always risk a possible move into a worse situation. I have some advice in
one of my several CPSJ essays on seeking a good postdoc. A similar line of
advice is warranted for students seeking a good advisor.
read at:
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on 
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------
Third: Go have a talk with the chairman and graduate student advisor of
your department for advice, help, and sound them out for whether they
would be willing to write letters of recommendation for you and mention
something about why you are moving to another school. It might also do you
a lot of good to talk to one or two chairs of other departments (and the
graduate student advisors there, too). It never hurts to go overboard on
seeking advice. Sometimes it makes the decisions harder because you go
into "information overload", but ont the other hand, it gives you more
options to chose from and maybe some ideas that you would not think of by
yourself or get here on SRC.
Fourth: Start doing all of this immediately, not one or two months from
now.
Art Sowers
=== no change to below, included for reference and context ====
On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, Saurabh  Rastogi wrote:
> My advisor has been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumour. There is
> no one else here who I can work with that shares my research interests in
> health/medical economics. I believe such incidents do, tragically, occur
> every now and then. What can one do in such a situation? Other than
> transfer or possibly leave the discipline altogether, there seems to
> very little that I can do. 
> Any suggestions?
> Saurabh
> 
> 
> 

From an article "Gibbons Warns of Decline in R&D;"
by Andrew Lawler on page 1830:
First para.
"Every year around Thanksgiving, White House budgeteers tell federal
agency managers how much money the Administration intends to request from
Congress for their programs in its upcoming budget. This year the message
was a real turkey for scientists: Most agencies have been told to expect
less in the 1988 fiscal year ... than they received this fiscal year."
and
"Jack Gibbons ... warned agency officials that their budgets through 2002
won't be keeping up with inflation, and they would need to trim their
staffs to avoid significant cuts to R&D; programs."
two paragraphs later:
"...[OMB] late last month told NASA,... [DOE], and ... [NIH] to expect
requests below the amounts appropriated by Congress in 1997."
Later there was something mentioned about "...a mandated governmentwide 5%
cut in personnel." but there wasn't enough details on its origin, time
table, or what.
Art Sowers
-------------------------------------------------------
Written in the public interest, the essays on 
"Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs" are located at:
http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

On a related topic:
Just a quick note to those interested in the economics of science and 
patents... the latest PNAS issue (Dec. 10 I believe) has a few articles 
which examine the role of basic and not-so-basic science in economic 
growth.  Most of the summaries were pretty dry but I'm sure the 
references would interest a lot of SRC readers (and it's more easily 
available in the library than a new book).
Merry Xmas to all the SRC crowd - don't spend Christmas eve huddled over 
a gel!
Dave Shivak
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Shivak - shivakd@fhs.mcmaster.ca
"He had been eight years upon a project for extracting sunbeams out of 
cucumbers, which were to be put in vials hermetically sealed, and let out 
to warm the air in raw inclement summers." - Jonathan Swift, _Gulliver's 
Travels_, Ch. 5.

Phil (Pscord@pacbell.net) wrote:
: Don Martin wrote:
: > Just because one guy gets to pursue what he likes and gets paid for it, doesn't mean everyone who likes to "study" things will be granted the privilege.
: > 
: This is basically true, but Don seems to want to teach, "Don't reach for
: your dreams, because you probably can't fulfill them."  Since his post
: comes from the U. of Guelph, I guess he's in Academia, and if he is,
: what kind of education is he getting/giving?  Would he have all who
: aspire (to reach any goal) not try because there's a chance (even a good
: one) that they'll be disappointed?  I think that's just a little too
: pessimistic (and even defeatist).
No, I'm being realistic.  I wouldn't have stayed in the academic stream 
as long as I have (9 years post-graduate) if I didn't want to give it a 
true shot.  I could easily stick it out another decade, but I wan't a 
source of income I can rely a little better on (post-doctoral salary is 
OK, but you either have funding or you don't).  I have all the 
dedication, persistence and drive in the world.  The one thing I don't 
have is more time to wait for the economy to magically change in favour 
of increased research funding or univsities to start treating research 
staff with basic human dignity.  I'd like a permanent job BEFORE I hit 
middle age.  As another poster stated a few months back "It's sad, but 
sometimes nobody wants to hire you to do what you're good at."
: Dave Jensen, if you read this post, all you have to do is bust your
: hump, learn the material, and seek out your place in biology.  Just know
: going in that few make the big bucks, but most of us are comfortable and
: (most of all) happy.
You should've state "...most of us WITH JOBS..."`
;)

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