Newsgroup sci.research 12701

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Someone wrote...
>Rubbish.  Where in the Constitution, which is the only permanent document
>that describes what the government has an obligation to do, does it say
>that the government should study the facts?  You feel that they should, and
>I feel that they should, but it's terribly arrogant to assume that just
>because 2 people (or 10 or 100 or 1,000, or even 100,000,000 people) feel
>that they should, that it is their behest to do so.
Since this is first and foremost a science group, may I try to apply a
little logic to this debate?
By definition, one of the principle requirements of the state of being
known as 'adult' is that an individual makes decisions based on
intellect, i.e., facts. It is, if you'll pardon my use of the phrase,
an inalienable right. The other states, BTW, are 'parent' (do as I
say) and 'child' (decisions based on emotion).
If a govt does not make decisions based on the facts, or study the
facts, or whatever, then you also have to accept the fact that govt is
not behaving in an 'adult' fashion, within the normally acecepted
definiton of the word. Of course any govt is perfectly entitled to do
this, but it doesn't say much for such a govt, and if I were the govt
I certainly wouldn't want to admit to it much less be seen acting in
such a manner.
By the same token, if you live in a democracy any complaint about the
govt is, by definition, a complaint against the voters who elected
that govt, i.e., self, irrespective of whether the individual voted
for the incumbents or not.
If your govt is not behaving in an adult manner, then it also follows
that the voters who elected that govt are not behaving in an adult
manner.
How does your govt perform?
I repeat, if you don't like it, move out.
Someone else wrote...
>Where?  Where can the millions of Americans, and also those of other
>countries, go?  The Puritans were able to move to Massachusetts; the
>believers in religious freedom to Rhode Island; the Catholics to
>Maryland; the Quakers to Pennsylvania; the Mormons to Utah.
Pardon? Am I to understand that the United States is the only country
in the world? That other countries do not have a 'wild west' or
'frontier', which, in fact, the US does not have either, having lost
its virginity years ago, does not mean one cannot move there.
George

>Joseph P. Pulcini, M.D. wrote:
>	[...]
>>    The vast majority of people who "have their dander" up about medical
>> uses of cannabis are people who like to get high.  Haven't you noticed
>> that the most noise about it comes from hemp rallies?  
snip...
John Alway  wrote:
snip
>	   This means that, on principle, the gov't has no
>	business telling a man what he can and can not do.
>	All a proper gov't can do is keep men from encroach
>	upon the rights of others.  Thus, this is a moral issue,
>	and the issue is that the gov't is morally _wrong_ to
>	use force against the innocent.
snip
Basically, I agree with John but I don't necessarily buy the natural
law arguments.  Clearly the gov't can and does tell citizens what to
do. In some cases, they should tell people what to do. Kill people,
and the government can bust you. Rob people, ditto. Manufacture
dangerous products and you should be up for sanction. Turn the
environment into a cesspool and everyone suffers.
I somewhat agree with Dr. Pulcini's analysis that the problem with pot
is the political aspect of people using it to get high. I think this
is *part* of the problem. But clearly, there is an abject hypocrisy
given the legal status of tobacco and alcohol which by all accounts
are far more dangerous. Further, other pharmaceutical drugs are
routinely abused (e.g., xanax, librium, etc. ad nauseam).
Such abuse doesn't justify the hypocrisy of legal sanctions against
drugs or herbs that have medicinal value. Especially when studies to
compare efficacy are thwarted persistently (e.g., Dr. Don Abrams
attempt to compare pot and marinol in people with HIV).
To the extent that people self-medicate with a variety of drugs
doesn't justify criminalizing substance use either. Nor does the
irresponsible use justify criminalizing substances. When people commit
crimes such as bodily harm on others through such use (e.g., drunk
driving), damage or theft to support a habit, these specific  criminal
activities are each clearly covered by laws.
Stimulating and maintaining highly profitable, illegal drug trade
through criminalization results in "careers" for violent individuals
from private citizens, to mob members to individuals and groups within
government agencies. The money to be made is enormous. The associated
power is seductive (and blinding). Those honest people in government
who would seek to end these profits faces serious threats. Maintaining
the costly farce of "interdiction" and busting street dealers sustains
the illusion of "something being done" when the reality is this drug
trade is an important component of arms trade. 
The enlightened view of substance abuse is that it is a health
problem: mental, spiritual and physical. Expecting to deal with it by
sending people to jail is nonsense.
There does also remain the issue (within another context) of herbs
versus pharmaceutical drugs. Here, too, science is not at work, but
the company's bottom line. Marinol does work for some and even as an
illegal drug, pot is cheaper. NIH routinely shies away from studying
any herbs whatsoever in order to sustain their role as pimps for the
pharmaceutical industry. (To be clear, in many  cases drugs work far
better than herbs and there is no competition).
I don't believe in consipiracy theories. It is more a matter of
disparate systems that are set up and within which there is abuse. New
folks come along and become absorbed into it and the madnesses are
perpetuated. And it is a matter of peculiar human nature that we all
are susceptible to greed, the lust for power.
I'm afraid there is no willpower to really change any of this so we
will undoubtedly grind into the next millenia carrying the baggage of
these failed policies with us. At the cost of the economy and people's
lives.
		George M. Carter

Michael Cuell (mcuell@compusmart.ab.ca) wrote:
: I remember reading somewhere that ethyl alcohol evaporates at 173 degrees
: F. The same article said that if you placed your brew in a large vessel in
: the oven at 200 degrees F for a period of time, you could drive off the
: alcohol. This would also potentially kill off your yeast, so you would have
: to force carbonate. I have yet to try this method, but it appears to have a
: certain amount of reason to it.
Of course, you're talking about boiling points at room pressure. If you
exposed the beer to a vacuum, you could boil off the alcohol at a lower
temperature, lessening some of the problems. Of course, you'll have to
re-carbonate it. That's easy enough once you vacuum distil off the good
stuff. You merely subject the beer to CO2 at several atmospheres of
pressure.
--
Microsoft is living proof that a sales talent is vastly more useful in a
capitalist society than intelligence. A person with an IQ of 1,000 could
die destitute, but a cretin with a sales talent can become a billionaire
http://www.ripco.com/~pentius/

    FINALLY  NEW  SCIENTIFIC  EVIDENCE  BEHIND  DOWSING 
Divining rods and all common dowsing devices, are the simplest
 forms of electroscopes.  The bent rod for example is just a
 variation of Gilbert's straw needle electroscope.
The divining rods are charged with static electricity from the
 dowser's own body.  This static electricity can be measured quite
 adequately with a simple millivolt meter. This voltage is measured
 between the hands of the dowser, and the amount of voltage will
 vary depending on the person. A good dowser will have a high
 reading, "above 100 mv" while a poor dowser may read as low
 as,"0 mv.".  For males the right hand is usually a negative
 polarity, and the left hand is positive in polarity.  These
 polarities are usually reversed in females. 
The divining rod charged positively will rotate in the dowsers
 hand to line up parallel to a negatively charged object being
 dowsed. A divining rod charged negatively will remain perpendicular
 to a negatively charged object being dowsed. This is because like
 charges repel, while unlike charges attract.  Thus both bent
 devining rods are not required for dowsing. When two divining
 rods are used, and they are seen to cross, one of the rods is
 being moved to line up parallel with the charged object being
 dowsed.  The other rod is moving to line up parallel to the first
 rod.  A second reason for the two rods crossing is that of dowsing
 over an alternating current source, such as a pipeline or buried
 cable. these are usually buried shallow and are conducting ground
 currents as the path of least resistance.
The above statements can easily be proven by, dowsing over negatively
 and positively charged objects. The devices used in my experiments
 were, a rubber rod rubbed with cat fur to produce the positive charged
 object, while a glass rod rubbed with silk was used to produce the
 negatively charged object
The reason conventional devices cannot detect these positive and
 negative charges, is probably because of the array in which the
 charged object gives off it's lines of force in all directions.
 Most instruments being omnidirectional devices would not pick up
 the small incremental changes in voltage along the earth’s surface.
 But the bent devining rods being unidirectional devices,  can only
 turn to line up parallel to the charged object, when they are directly
 above the charged object.
The willow crotch is another type of dowsing device,  this divining rod
 begins to pick up an attraction to the charged object prior to reaching
 the object,  having it’s greatest amount of pull directly over the
 object.  After dowsing with the willow crotch , the crotch itself can
 laid down and dowsed with the bent rods, which will indicate a charge
 left on each arm of the crotch, one positive and one negative.
A metallic pendulum attached by a wire will take on the charge of the
 hand it is being held by.  A pendulum held by a nonconductive string
 will take on the charge of the last hand which held the pendulum.  The
 pendulum when rotating above an object of a similar charge will continue
 to rotate and eventually swing back and forth perpendicular to the
 object.  This pendulum when rotating above an object of the opposite
 charge will start to swing back and forth parallel to the object being
 dowsed.  Caution here when dowsing an object you have touched the object
 will usually take on the charge of the last hand that touched it. This
 can be demonstrated by dowsing over an object such as a table knife
 depending on which hand touched the knife last an opposite reaction of
 the dowsing device will be seen.
     Another interesting phenomenon.
To discover the depth of a water stream underground some dowsers use a
 long rod,  made of  either iron or a fresh cut poplar pole.  This pole
 is held by one end near the located underground stream, the other end
 of the rod is allowed to oscillate up and down directly over the stream.   
 The number of oscillations are counted and this is the approximate number
 of feet below the earth where the water will be found.
This action can also be demonstrated, by realizing that the rod is just
 a pendulum working  in a vertical plane rather than a horizontal one.  
 To duplicate this action a charged object can be placed on a table,  by
 having a pendulum swing back and forth,  a few feet away, and in the
 same  horizontal plane the number of oscillations can be counted. By
 moving the  pendulum closer or farther from the object the number of
 oscillations 
 will decrease or increase. When this is graphed, number of  oscillations
 vs. distance,  a straight line graph will be observed. By varying the
 length of the wire on the pendulum, the slope of the line will vary.  
 My theory here is that a static electric wave or pulse is being sent to
 the object being dowsed,  this charge is being reflected back from the 
 object being dowsed,  when it reaches the pendulum again as the same
 charge it stops the oscillations, since like charges repel.
The significance of these finding are overwhelming . The applications
 in which dowsing has been used is HUGE.  When all of these applications
 have been explored scientifically Mankind will take another leap forward.

>>
>>Libraries usually have books in their Food Science and Food Technology
>>sections, if not  the Reference Section  should have some general
>>Food Technology references. Ask a librarian, rather than extensively
>>cross-posting across Usenet...
>I disagree with your 'advice'. This usenet is an alternative source of 
>information. Just as good as a library, or better. It provides first hand 
>experiences which may not be described in books. Therefore faster and, in 
>my opinion, preferable. Don't answer if you don't want to. But the idea 
>here is to share your knowledge and help whoever needs it!
Usenet can put you in contact with people who have first-hand experience, but 
it also tends to throw up a mix of information, misinformation and 
disinformation. Check usenet by all means, but visit the library as well.
Books may not contain first-hand accounts but they have at least been 
peer-reviewed.

>This part of your answer would have been sufficient, if you are concerned 
>about saving Usenet space/time. Users should be encouraged to use it. 
>That's what's there for..   Cheers.
True, but understand its limitations.
Jonathan Depree,
Lincoln University, P.O. Box 84, Canterbury, New Zealand.
Socrates was a famous Greek Teacher who went around giving
people advice. They killed him.   (school history howler)

> Incidentally, on a very closely related subject, did you also know
> that the fibre of the hemp plant is stronger than just about any other
> natural fibre.
I'd believe it might be stronger than any natural plant-derived* fiber, 
but what about animal-derived?  I didn't think anything could compare to 
spider silk for strength.
That having been said, I still agree that hemp fibers could probably 
replace a lot of the fibers currently in use for the manufacture of 
paper and cloth.  Does hemp cloth take dyes well?  The (admittedly few) 
samples I've seen of hemp cloth have all had a canvas-like texture and 
"natural" (i.e. very light tan) color.
-Drox

If interested, go to the Web Site of The Institution of Engineers of 
Ireland at ;
         http://www.failte.com/iei/

During my senior year I worked on an extensive project "Design and
Economic Analysis of Non Alcoholic Beer" This project was part of the
AIChE Student Design Competition in 1996. The project was based on
distillation as the primary menthod for converting regular beer into
non-alcoholic beer.
As it turns out the process is very highly profitable in united states
no matter which way you make the non alcoholic beer. There are various
ways of making non alcoholic beer. Two of the "best" methods are 1)
using low temperature/high pressure distillation to remove ethanol from
regular beer and 2) by using Osmiosis. Also it is easier to produce Low
Alcoholic beer than to produce non-alcoholic beer.
As it turns out the the thing that complicates the process is "taste" of
non-alcoholic beer. You have to be careful not to get rid of volatiles
(taste and smell components) of beer or to raise the temperature in the
process to such a point that you start destroying some of the beer
components [Apparently beer has more than 1000 components]. My project
delt with an economically optimized design for non-alcoholic beer
production plant on aspenplus simulator"
With respect to economics, the Non-Alc beer production is very highly
profitable (at least in us) becuase you don't have to pay the excise
duty on non-alcoholic beer compared to alcoholic beer.
But the main thing to worry about is whether there is a good market for
non-alcholic beer. There is lot of stuff on this. market share of
non-alcoholic beer is increasing. Coors, Miller, Anheuser Busch and
other leading brands in US and Europe produce non-alcholic beer. But the
market share of non-alc beer is very less compared to alc beer.
Will be glad to provide further information if needed.
Amrish

In article <32D838A7.101@icsi.net>, John Alway  wrote:
>Path: 
news.hal-pc.org!insync!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!cdc2.
cdc.net!news.texas.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-1
5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintli
nk.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.montana.com!news
>From: John Alway 
>Newsgroups: 
sci.skeptic,sci.med,sci.edu,sci.physics.sci.chem,sci.bio.misc,sci.misc,sci.
research
>Subject: Re: Abuse of science by Clinton admin
>Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:04:39 -0600
>Organization: Internet Connect Services
>Lines: 61
>Message-ID: <32D838A7.101@icsi.net>
>References: <32C7BEAA.2BA2@vasilisa.com> <5a7npi$pqc$1@news.calweb.com> 
<5a8037$h3k@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <5a9gv9$gvc$1@news.calweb.com> 
<32C91A5D.411F@vasilisa.com> <32D5C8E5.3ACE@elpnet.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: jalway.icsi.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
>Xref: news.hal-pc.org sci.skeptic:143606 sci.med:86744 sci.edu:8262 
sci.bio.misc:6883 sci.misc:14419 sci.research:6531
>Status: N
>
>Joseph P. Pulcini, M.D. wrote:
>
>	[...]
>
>>    The vast majority of people who "have their dander" up about medical
>> uses of cannabis are people who like to get high.  Haven't you noticed
>> that the most noise about it comes from hemp rallies?  Don't you think
>> the government has notice that this tie-died army which seems so
>> concerned about this one particular medical problem doesn't seem to care
>> about legislation regarding any other drug? No one considers it worth
>> the political hassel.  Which is *not* to say it's a useless drug; it is
>> not.  But the unfortunate fact is, millions of people smoke it for fun,
>> and in 1997 no politician wants to dirty his hands with it.
>
>
>	  A few points, and I realized this is a mouthful, but
>	it's necessary to reiterate these points because they
>	get to the nub of the problem:
>
>	  1> There is a concept called "individual rights"
>	(aka natural rights) ... allegedly it was the foundation 
>	of this country.   The idea is that a man has the right
>	to _his_ life, _his_ liberty, _his_ property, and the
>	pursuit of _his_ happiness, i.e. a man is sovereign over
>	his life!
>
>	   This means that, on principle, the gov't has no
>	business telling a man what he can and can not do.
>	All a proper gov't can do is keep men from encroach
>	upon the rights of others.  Thus, this is a moral issue,
>	and the issue is that the gov't is morally _wrong_ to
>	use force against the innocent.
>
(a bunch of stuff below this has been cut)
Your arguments are certainly correct if you assume that you are truly 
independent from others in this country.  If this was truly the case, you 
should be able to do exactly what you wanted with no one telling you what 
to do.  However, let's look at this a bit.
At your job, there is a division of labor, with everyone being highly 
specialized.  Thus there are interdependencies which require some 
cooperation on your part in order to serve the greater good.  Without this 
cooperation (from many participants), an advanced economy would be 
impossible, because very little teamwork would exist.
When you drive down most roads, note that a governmental agency made access 
to this mode of transportation possible by building this road with tax 
dollars.  These tax dollars came from very many individuals, who didn't 
necessarily want to be taxed, but who usually realized that the greater 
good was served.  Naturally, this is again a case where some cooperation is 
obtained by a small amount of reduced personal liberty (through involuntary 
taxation).
When you send your children to a public school, many people contribute to 
this enterprise, and many of the contributors do not have children 
attending the schools they are supporting.  Nevertheless, it is in 
society's best interest to ensure that children get educated, because they 
will be the individuals who will run the society of the next generation.
The point of all this?  No one in a complex modern society is totally free 
to do as he/she chooses.  The current economic and political systems will 
not allow this much freedom.  This is especially apparent when the true 
"freedom seekers" manage to get themselves into big trouble.  For example, 
if someone rides a motorcycle without a helmet in the name of personal 
freedom, and gets in a wreck and suffers permanent injury which prevents 
them from working, you will note that the affected individual will be the 
first one "in line" for the very government assistance that they seemed to 
condemn so much before their accident.
There are usually good reasons for the laws that exist.  It is unlikely 
that getting a certain percentage of the population addicted to illicit 
drugs in the name of freedom will do anyone any good.  Heavens knows that 
alcohol and tobacco have been bad enough - we don't need to condone the use 
of worse substances than these.

Version 3.2 of Molecular Weight Calculator for Windows now available.
      New Features:  Allows use of abbreviations as custom elements in
                       formula finder.
                     For Percent Solver, added display of differences
                       between target percentages and obtained percentages.
                     Changed comment delimeter to be a semicolon in the
                       MWTWIN.INI file and the .DAT files.
                     Added detection of a mouse click to stop the percent
                       solver and formula finder.
    Why is it better than other programs available?  First of all it's
free, yet fully functional.  I feel it is very powerful, more functional
and more user friendly than other molecular weight programs I've found
over the net.  I'm making it available for others so that they can use it
in their research and studies.  Plus, the program is fully Windows 95
compatible (beside Win 3.x).  The Dos version is also still available.
AVAILABILITY
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Windows Version (MWTWin v3.2)
The program is available via the web at http://plains.uwyo.edu/~monroem/ or
at http://www.coast.net/SimTel/win3/chem.html and
http://www.cdrom.com/simtel.net/win3/chem.html and
http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/chem/ in the mwt3_2.zip file.
The program is also available via Anonymous FTP at ftp.coast.net under the 
SimTel/win3/chem/ directory in the mwt3_2.zip file, at ftp.simtel.net under
pub/simtelnet/win3/chem/ in the mwt3_2.zip file, and ftp.osc.edu under the 
pub/chemistry/software/MS-WINDOWS/Molecular_Weight/ directory in the
mwt3_2.exe or mwt3_2s.exe files.
    Dos Version (MWT v2.87)
The program is available via the web at http://plains.uwyo.edu/~monroem/ or
at http://www.coast.net/SimTel/msdos/chemstry.html and 
http://www.cdrom.com/simtel.net/msdos/chemstry.html and 
http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/chemstry/ in the mwt2_87.zip file.
The program is also available via Anonymous FTP at ftp.coast.net under the 
SimTel/msdos/chemstry/ directory in the mwt2_87.zip file, at ftp.simtel.net
under pub/simtelnet/msdos/chemstry/ in the mwt2_87.zip file, and ftp.osc.edu
under the pub/chemistry/software/MS-DOS/Molecular-Weight-Calculator/
directory in the mwt2_87.exe file.
    As a final option, I can mail you a UUEncoded or MIME encoded version 
via e-mail; just drop me a line.
Please see my home page for the Dos version features.
As for the Windows version, ...
FEATURES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multi Line Display	Display of up to seven formulas with their molecular
weights simultaneously.
Percent Composition	Percent composition of up to seven formulas.
Parentheses Are Allowed	Handles up to 4 layers of embedded parentheses.
For example, (CH3)3CH2CH3 is equivalent to CH3CH3CH3CH2CH3.
Hydrates or other appended compounds are allowed.
For example, FeCl3-6H2O.
User-definable abbreviations	Default abbreviations are included for common
parts of compounds, including amino acids.  See full list.
For example, PhCl = C6H5Cl and HOac = CH3COOH.
Smart Case Conversion	The program will automatically convert lowercase
letters to uppercase where appropriate for ease of entering a formula.  Exact
case matching and non-conversion are also available.
Edit and save abbreviations while program is running.
Isotopes are recognized using the following notation:
^13C is Carbon-13
	C6H5^18OH is heavy-oxygen (Oxygen-18) labeled phenol
Feature of weighting parts of a compound relative to the other parts.
For example,
[.2Na]Cl would have a weight of 0.2*22.989768+35.4527=40.0507
NaCl-[.5H2O] would have a weight of
22.989768+35.4527+0.5*(2*1.00794+15.9994)=67.4501
Percent Solver mode for finding the value of "x" in a compound that satisfies
user-specified percent composition requirements.
Edit and save elemental values while program is running.
Accuracy of the final digit of the molecular wt. and percent composition.
Capability to set optional features at the command line when starting the
program.
Capability of saving options as defaults and automatic loading of the saved
options upon program start.
Easily Cut, Copy, and Paste information between the Molecular Weight Calculator
and other Windows applications.
Mole/Mass Converter for easily translating moles to mass (kg, g, mg, pounds,
ounces) and back.
Formula Finder for finding possible compound empirical formulas for a given
molecular weight or for a given set of percent composition data.
Capability of printing results.
Extensive On-Line Help and Error Checking
THE AUTHOR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contacting the Author
You can contact me by E-mail at Monroem@UWyo.Edu until I graduate in May 1997. 
After that, E-mail BPat@UWyo.Edu for information on my whereabouts.
About the Author
I am an undergraduate chemistry major at the University of Wyoming in Laramie,
Wyoming.  I plan to attend graduate school and aim to obtain a doctorate in
chemistry.  I taught myself to program in BASIC on an Apple //c (with 128 Kb
of Ram and no hard disk) in 1986 during 6th grade.  Since then, I have updated
to GW-Basic, then QuickBasic v4.5, QuickBasic v7.1 for DOS, and now Visual
Basic 3.0 for Windows.  I am familiar with C, and, though I know it is much
faster than Basic, I stick with the various forms of Basic since I am much
more comfortable with the language.  I have also been told that Visual Basic
is easier to learn than Visual C, and, in fact, I taught myself Visual Basic
in two days.
/============================================================================\
I was goin' Chopin', but I forgot my Lizst! Had to go Bach to get it.
                                   What are the following?
Matthew Monroe               Black Angus            :      Black Angus
Chemistry Major              Black Angus            :      Texas Longhorn
University of Wyoming        Black Angus            :      Brown Swiss
                             -------------------------------------------------
monroem@uwyo.edu             Homogeneous Catalyst   :   Heterogeneous Catalyst
/----------------------------------\
| http://plains.uwyo.edu/~monroem/ |           This tagline is umop apisdn.
\============================================================================/

Habib Delgado wrote:
> 
> On 8 Jan 1997 15:19:16 GMT, e8925685@student.tuwien.ac.at (Martin
> Lenz) wrote:
> 
> >
> >I have been told that they make low alcohol beer ("alcohol-free") at very low
> >temperature and with a very short fermenting time and under these conditions the yeast
> >produces nearly no alcohol. I m not sure if they use a special yeast.
> >
> Low temps won't do it. Ice beer and eisbock is made at practically
> freezing (ice forming during fermentation is what you're aiming for),
> and lager is always made in very low temperature ranges.
> Short fermenting time would produce less alcohol, but you would have a
> tremendously sweet beer, due to all the unconverted sugar.
> I believe that a combination of the type of malt, the quantity of
> malt, and the fermenting time are all used. Also, are we talking "low
> alcohol", or "near beer"?
> I know that near beer is made by first producing regular beer, then
> removing most the alcohol, then is artificially carbonated. I assume
> the alcohol is driven off with heat, but I'm not positive....
If I recall correctly you can make low alc beer both ways. the method
suggested earlier involves making changes in the actual regular-beer
production process itself. While as the method that you have listed puts
regular beer through another process (this process basically takes out
alcohol). Both process will work, but the second process is more common
as production plant do not want to make changes to their regular beer
production method.
making beer involvs a lot of biological stuff (yeast and all that) so
the process is not completely understood so it is difficult to pridict
how a perticular process change may effect the taste of the beer. A lot
of times a little bit of regular beer is added to non-alcoholic beer at
the end of the process in order to compensate for any loss of flavour
during the process.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

In message <32D60D00.303E@lanl.gov> - "Rebecca M. Chamberlin"
Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:33:52 +0000 writes:
MAF>
MAF>> | I remember reading somewhere that ethyl alcohol evaporates at 173 degrees
MAF>> | the oven at 200 degrees F for a period of time, you could drive off the
MAF>> | alcohol. 
MAF>.....
MAF>
MAF>> You may get a fair amount of vinegar (acetic acid) as well )o:}
MAF>
MAF>
MAF>Some attempts at this method, from the homebrewer's perspective, are 
MAF>discussed under the "Non-alcoholic beers" section of 
MAF>There was no mention of vinegar flavors.
One Xmas season we were in the Al-Buraimi Hotel and a waitress was igniting a
beverage, and when it extinguished she would swish it around and re-ignite it.
 I would imagine she was burning the hooch part off so a Muslim would be more
comfortable with the drink (despite the fact this should make no difference).
Take Care!
From:  Mark Allen Framness
home:  framness@EMIRATES.NET.AE
work:  m477@ugru.uaeu.ac.ae
http://netnet.net/~farmer/index.html
Go Pack Go!
Please CC all replies via e-mail to me.  I'm a weekend reader only.
All standard disclaimers apply.  Anyone who says likewise is itching for a
fight!

In message <32D60D00.303E@lanl.gov> - "Rebecca M. Chamberlin"
Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:33:52 +0000 writes:
MAF>
MAF>> | I remember reading somewhere that ethyl alcohol evaporates at 173 degrees
MAF>> | the oven at 200 degrees F for a period of time, you could drive off the
MAF>> | alcohol. 
MAF>.....
MAF>
MAF>> You may get a fair amount of vinegar (acetic acid) as well )o:}
MAF>
MAF>
MAF>Some attempts at this method, from the homebrewer's perspective, are 
MAF>discussed under the "Non-alcoholic beers" section of 
MAF>There was no mention of vinegar flavors.
One Xmas season we were in the Al-Buraimi Hotel and a waitress was igniting a
beverage, and when it extinguished she would swish it around and re-ignite it.
 I would imagine she was burning the hooch part off so a Muslim would be more
comfortable with the drink (despite the fact this should make no difference).
Take Care!
From:  Mark Allen Framness
home:  framness@EMIRATES.NET.AE
work:  m477@ugru.uaeu.ac.ae
http://netnet.net/~farmer/index.html
Go Pack Go!
Please CC all replies via e-mail to me.  I'm a weekend reader only.
All standard disclaimers apply.  Anyone who says likewise is itching for a
fight!

Eric Lucas  wrote in article
<01bbfea1$ab73bfa0$f9ac11cf@lucasea-home>...
| 
| 
| a bean  wrote in article
| <01bbfe02$81a9d000$73cb86d0@discover-net.net.discover-net.net>...
| > Michael Cuell  wrote in article
| > <01bbfde7$9e5899e0$6b83b9c7@mcuell.compusmart.ab.ca>...
| > | 
| > | 
| > | andfab@mbox.vol.it wrote in article <32D341CB.4E3A@mbox.vol.it>...
| > | > Hello, 
| > | > 
| > | > I need to have some information about low alcoholic wine
| > | > and beer, especially regarding its production, dealcoholization
| > | > processes and commercialization network.
| > | > 
| > | > Thanks in advance
| > | > 
| > | >                             Andrea Fabiani
| > | > 
| > | >                             andfab@mbox.vol.it
| > | > 
| > | 
| > | I remember reading somewhere that ethyl alcohol evaporates at 173
| degrees
| > | F. The same article said that if you placed your brew in a large
vessel
| > in
| > | the oven at 200 degrees F for a period of time, you could drive off
the
| > | alcohol. This would also potentially kill off your yeast, so you
would
| > have
| > | to force carbonate. I have yet to try this method, but it appears to
| have
| > a
| > | certain amount of reason to it.
| > | 
| > | Good luck...
| > | 
| > | 
| > | --- Free advice is often worth exactly what you paid for it. ---
| > | 
| > 
| > You may get a fair amount of vinegar (acetic acid) as well )o:}
| 
| ...unless you exclude air in the process (sparge with CO2 or N2, and keep
| under a static head of CO2 or N2.)
I agree
Commercial brewers can make a profit by selling or utilizing the extracted
ethanol, CO2, and yeast.
Home brewers would be better off not wasting sugar/or malt in order to
produce a level of alcohol and other byproducts that are just going to be
"tossed out".
If you are a home brewer, and want low alcohol content - just use less
sugar/or malt to start with.
The commercial processes for obtaining low-alcohol from high-alcohol will
obviously be based on the worth of all the byproducts produced, and
sometimes justifies rather difficult procedures.
One of the main concerns with reducing alcohol levels is the possibility of
"devaluing" the flavor of the primary product, and thereby reducing the
overall profit from the entire process. If the wine/or beer is exposed to
air/O2 and/or high temperatures then there will be some degradation of
flavor - mostly due to acetic acid formation. The method of using vacuum
assisted evaporation is a viable "commercial" solution given the factors
involved. The rate of depressurization may have to be controlled in order
to prevent excessive frothing due to dissolved CO2 rapidly coming out of
solution.
I also remember reading some time ago about the idea of placing alcohol
adsorbing wafers in the wort - I wish I could remember more about this
process, but it too could be a viable commercial way to go about obtaining
low-alcohol wine/or beer.
Maybe someone out there can locate and post more information on this second
method.

Go buy the 1/5/97 Sunday Los Angeles Times.  Every large aerospace
employer has full page (at least) advertisements looking for
engineers.  Some of the jobs are in Los Angeles but a lot of them are
not (e.g., Lockheed hiring for employment in Georgia).
Good luck!
pauleni1@ix.netcom.com(Paul Ennin M.D.) wrote:
>Hello all I am a new suscriber to your news group.  I am a new engineer
>and I am looking for a job.  
>Can anyone help.
>In NY area especially!!!

Drox  wrote:
>> Incidentally, on a very closely related subject, did you also know
>> that the fibre of the hemp plant is stronger than just about any other
>> natural fibre.
>
>I'd believe it might be stronger than any natural plant-derived* fiber, 
>but what about animal-derived?  I didn't think anything could compare to 
>spider silk for strength.
>
>That having been said, I still agree that hemp fibers could probably 
>replace a lot of the fibers currently in use for the manufacture of 
>paper and cloth.  Does hemp cloth take dyes well?  The (admittedly few) 
>samples I've seen of hemp cloth have all had a canvas-like texture and 
>"natural" (i.e. very light tan) color.
>
>-Drox
Look in the most recent, or so, CHEMTECH.  On a strength/weight basis, 
hemp is substantially stronger than glass fiber.
Silk is not especially strong compared to synthetics like kevlar.  Silk 
has the unique attribute of slowly failing in tension as its molecular 
structure unfolds and elongates, absorbing energy like a sponge.  
Consider the body armor debate between kevlar (aromatic polyamide) and 
Spectra (gel-drawn polyethylene).  It is "obvious" that Spectra, with a 
melting point of 135 C, cannot absorb the energy of a bullet without 
being launched deep into failure.  You wear the kevlar, I'll wear the 
Sepctra, and we'll start firing.  Starting with the second hit, you 
are in deep kimchee.  If the kevlar vest is damp wth perspiration, you 
are in deep kimchee.  Like bumblebees and flight, the simple analysis is 
wrong.
In case nobody remembers, the Mid-West was rife with hemp farms during 
WWII as a strategic material - government-subsidized.  George Washington 
grew hemp as a cash crop.  Hemp shirts were handed down from father to 
son in the Middle Ages.  The stuff has the longest cellulose fibers in 
the vegetable kingdom. It grows without fertilizer, irrigation, or 
insecticide.
Marijuana is utterly harmless, which is why it is so dangerous.  A quick 
recombinant DNA knockout will control or end its cannabinoid synthesis.  
Who would want that?  The War on Drugs would go the way of Vietnam - the 
enemy won because its cause was moral and just.
--
Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz
UncleAl0@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @)
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal.htm
 (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children, Democrats, and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"  The Net!

glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote:
>In article <5bdkgq$3p5@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>Alan \"Uncle Al\" Schwartz   wrote:
>
>>Consider the body armor debate between kevlar (aromatic polyamide) and 
>>Spectra (gel-drawn polyethylene).  It is "obvious" that Spectra, with a 
>>melting point of 135 C, cannot absorb the energy of a bullet without 
>>being launched deep into failure.  You wear the kevlar, I'll wear the 
>>Sepctra, and we'll start firing.  Starting with the second hit, you 
>>are in deep kimchee.  If the kevlar vest is damp wth perspiration, you 
>>are in deep kimchee.  Like bumblebees and flight, the simple analysis is 
>>wrong.
>
>Why the second hit?  How does "damp with perspiration" affect a kevlar
>vest?
If you try to snap a kevlar thread you will cut off your fingers.  Make a 
simple overhand knot and it will shatter like glass.  After the first 
bullet hits, the kevlar is compromised the same way that Prince Rupert's 
Tears will survive banging with a hammer but not a tiny scratch.
Wet kevlar deforms anisotropically.  It is a nightmare in composites 
subject to humidity.  The specs go to hell in unpredictable ways.  
Acidic water and electrolytes plasticize kevlar, making its properties go 
wonky.
Spectra is physically and chemically inert (keep it out of sunlight; 
kevlar also phtodegrades), about fives times stronger than kevlar/wt, and 
much softer to the touch.  DuPont is not amused, and has been fighting to 
keep its body armor market.
>>Marijuana is utterly harmless, which is why it is so dangerous.  A quick 
>>recombinant DNA knockout will control or end its cannabinoid synthesis.  
>
>Is it really that simple?
It has already been done.  The genetic mechanism of cellulose fiber 
determination is also in hand.  One could design a Douglas Fir or a 
cotton plant to spec - BUT IT WOULD BE WRONG!
>  Could it be made noticably different from a
>narcotic version?  If so, that's a great subject for research.  Sure, >the hemp farmers will initially lose some product due to hip=
pies raiding >the fields, but that shouldn't last long after they find out it's >useless for their purposes.
Natural hemp is about 0.2 wt-% THC.  British Columbia is hydroponically 
growing 30 wt-% THC flowerheads.  One needn't change anything, only grow 
the original plant - BUT IT WOULD BE WRONG!
-- 
Alan "Uncle Al" Schwartz
UncleAl0@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @)
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal.htm
 (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children, Democrats, and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"  The Net!

Energy & Environmental Research Center
University of North Dakota
P.O. Box 9018
Grand Forks, ND 58202-9018
Phone: (701) 777-5000
Fax: (701) 777-5181
Web: http://www.eerc.und.nodak.edu
News Release
JANUARY 14, 1997   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
------------------------------------------
EERC Leads Research Effort to Measure 
Mercury Emissions from Power Plants
------------------------------------------
GRAND FORKS, N.D.   The U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency (EPA) is now determining whether
mercury emissions should be regulated under the
1990 Clean Air Act Amendments.
  If the decision is made to regulate mercury
emissions from electric power plants, what's the
best way to control the emissions?  Do methods
exist to accurately measure the type and amount of
mercury in exhaust gases emitted from power
plants? 
  Research at the University of North Dakota
Energy & Environmental Research Center (EERC) is
seeking solutions to these questions.  In a
project funded by the Electric Power Research
Institute (EPRI) and the U.S. Department of Energy
(DOE), the EERC has taken the lead in developing
more accurate and reliable methods to measure
trace amounts of mercury in power plant emissions.
  "This is a high-visibility project," says Tom
Brown, a manager in DOE's air toxics control
program at the Federal Energy Technology Center
(FETC) facility in Pittsburgh. "The EERC has taken
the lead role in the measurement of different
mercury forms, which is one of the most intense
efforts in the country, if not the world.  The
EERC is recognized as a leader in this research
field." 
  The problem as defined by Dennis Laudal, an EERC
research manager heading the project, is that when
coal is burned in a power plant, trace amounts of
mercury in the coal break down into different
forms or "species," becoming either elemental
mercury or oxidized mercury.  Laudal says oxidized
mercury is soluble in water and its transport in
the atmosphere is limited.  In addition, he says
many pollution control systems currently in use
will remove it.
  However, elemental mercury doesn't dissolve in
water and can remain suspended in the atmosphere
for up to two years.  Therefore, it can be
deposited almost anywhere in the world.  When
elemental mercury naturally transforms to
methylmercury, it may accumulate in fish
populations, leading to high mercury
concentrations.
  The EERC's mercury research project has focused
on the EPA's standard method for measuring mercury
in power plant emissions.  Known as Method 29, the
EERC's research has shown that this method, under
certain conditions, is inaccurate in measuring
mercury in its different forms. This has led the
EERC to study other methods of measuring mercury
emissions.  Laudal says the EERC's research has
resulted in improvements to these methods that are
being standardized to increase the accuracy and
reliability of mercury measurements.
  "The EERC's work has helped to define the
problem and is assisting in developing new and
better methods for distinguishing the forms of
mercury," Brown says.  "This work is crucial
because we must be certain that we have an
accurate, reliable method that can measure both
oxidized and elemental mercury.  These methods are
needed to assess the potential impact of mercury
emissions on the environment and, if needed, the
development of cost-effective control technologies
and strategies for coal-fired utilities."
                      - 30 -
For More Information Contact:
Dennis Laudal, EERC research manager, at (701)
777-5138 or dlaudal@eerc.und.nodak.edu
Patrick Miller, EERC communications coordinator,
at (701) 777-5113 or pmiller@eerc.und.nodak.edu

depreej@lincoln.ac.nz (Depree, Jonathan A) wrote:
[ I wrote previously, please keep attributions ...]
>>>Libraries usually have books in their Food Science and Food Technology
>>>sections, if not  the Reference Section  should have some general
>>>Food Technology references. Ask a librarian, rather than extensively
>>>cross-posting across Usenet...
Please note the "extensively cross-posting". I reduced the 
followups to my earlier post because this thread is going to :-
1.  sci.chem,
2.  sci.chemistry    (  an invalid group!  )
3.  sci.engr.chem,
4.  sci.edu,
5.  sci.research,
6.  rec.food.drink,
7.  rec.crafts.winemaking,
8.  rec.crafts.brewing,
9.  alt.food.wine,
10. alt.food.professionals,
11. rec.food.drink.beer,
12. rec.food.marketplace
[ Giovanni wrote ]
>>I disagree with your 'advice'. This usenet is an alternative source of 
>>information. Just as good as a library, or better. It provides first hand 
>>experiences which may not be described in books. Therefore faster and, in 
>>my opinion, preferable. Don't answer if you don't want to. But the idea 
>>here is to share your knowledge and help whoever needs it!
As  I've pointed out to this person in email, the wider a thread
is crossposted, the more chance some of the information will be 
incorrect. A visit to the library would have at least helped identify
some of the processes, and also helped define what questions
and which usenet groups to ask them it. Crossposting a question
to 12 groups, one of which is invalid, is not being a good net
citizen - no matter what dalfieri@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Giovanni)
may believe. 
>Usenet can put you in contact with people who have first-hand experience, but 
>it also tends to throw up a mix of information, misinformation and 
>disinformation. Check usenet by all means, but visit the library as well.
>Books may not contain first-hand accounts but they have at least been 
>peer-reviewed.
I agree that Usenet is not a good source, but I strongly emphasis that
"checking Usenet" should be by well-defined questions posted to a
few groups. If the groups are inappropriate, someone will point to
the more approppriate group. Usenet groups ( apart from a few
announcement and *.answers groups ) are discussion groups, and
extensive crossposting while trolling for information is almost certain
to result in some misinformation, which may or may not be subsequently
corrected.
[ Followups set to alt.flame, this is off-topic for all the groups ]
            Bruce Hamilton  

In article <5bdkgq$3p5@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
Alan \"Uncle Al\" Schwartz   wrote:
>Consider the body armor debate between kevlar (aromatic polyamide) and 
>Spectra (gel-drawn polyethylene).  It is "obvious" that Spectra, with a 
>melting point of 135 C, cannot absorb the energy of a bullet without 
>being launched deep into failure.  You wear the kevlar, I'll wear the 
>Sepctra, and we'll start firing.  Starting with the second hit, you 
>are in deep kimchee.  If the kevlar vest is damp wth perspiration, you 
>are in deep kimchee.  Like bumblebees and flight, the simple analysis is 
>wrong.
Why the second hit?  How does "damp with perspiration" affect a kevlar
vest?
>Marijuana is utterly harmless, which is why it is so dangerous.  A quick 
>recombinant DNA knockout will control or end its cannabinoid synthesis.  
Is it really that simple?  Could it be made noticably different from a
narcotic version?  If so, that's a great subject for research.  Sure, the
hemp farmers will initially lose some product due to hippies raiding the
fields, but that shouldn't last long after they find out it's useless for
their purposes.
-- 
        "But you can't let the package hide the pudding; evil is just
plain bad.  You don't cotton to it.  You've got to hit it in the nose
with the rolled-up newspaper of goodness.  Bad Dog!  BAD! DOG!"
     - The Tick

Perhaps you can help:
I'm looking for info to set up a scientific poll on a product that is
currently rated on income but mfgs feel it's inaccurate. What is involved
compiling an scientific poll?
Thank you,
James Calore
_________________________________________________
STAR*TECH JOURNAL  http://www.StarTechJournal.com

>        Yes, I did, and not too long ago it was pretty
>common knowledge:  the Constitution of the United
>States, and the Declaration of Independence are both
>entirely hemp, (they *may* be confiscated, soon...),
>as was just about any grandiloquent piece of paper
>which one intended to last forever, (oh well, maybe
>next time...).
The Declaration of Independence was written on hemp.  The Constution was 
written on vellum.

Query--How do I set up a scientific poll?  Answer--Locate a good applied
statistician and follow his or her advice.