Newsgroup sci.astro 135686

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I found that I was using a very old set of orbital elements for 
Hale-Bopp.  Using DANCE OF THE PLANETS, the bright object in Mr. 
Shramek's image does indeed appear to be the 7.76 magnitude star SAO 
141889.  The mystery is over (now can we just figure out Art Bell? :-)).
-- 
David W. Knisely, KA0CZC   email: dk84538@navix.net     
Prairie Astronomy Club, Inc.  http://www.infoanalytic.com/pac/
Attend the 4th annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY, AUGUST 2-9th, 1997
BABYLON 5: Our last best hope for QUALITY science fiction.

It appears Russia's Mars' 96 launch was not successful.  The spacecraft was
launched into an Earth parking orbit today, but one of the upper stages
apparently did not burn leaving the spacecraft stuck in Earth orbit. 
It appears that the spacecraft will now reenter into Earth's atmosphere.
From the Mars '96 home page - http://www.iki.rssi.ru/mars96/news.htm
   WE HAVE NO REASON FOR CONGRATULATION
   November, 17 - Unsuccessful result of M96 mission
   Mars-96 remains on Earth satellite orbit and will fall on Earth surface
     ___    _____     ___   
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|      Ron Baalke     | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |  Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   Pasadena, CA    | I am doing basic research, when
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /|                 | I don't know what I'm doing.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                  | Wernher Von Braun

In article <56ld65$kuo@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, jwas@ix.netcom.com(jw) wrote:
> In <55t3d7$rhi@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>
> aranders@kosepc01.delcoelect.com (Alan Anderson) writes: 
> >
> >Douglas Hofstadter's _Goedel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid_
> >a wonderful description an intelligent ant colony (named, I believe,
> >"Johant Sebastiant Fermant" -- after it was "killed" by a destructive
> >flood the ants regrouped and "Aunt Hillary" emerged).
>
> But the "ant colony" in this book is a fantasy, whose
> point is to illustrate the author's belief in the
> possibilities of Artificial Intelligence (AI): 
[deleted]
> 
> This fairy tale (like it or not)
> has nothing at all to do with real ant
> colonies, which are not in the least intelligent.
> 
> Personally I believe it is read best as
> a *reductio ad absurdum* argument against AI.
In that case, it works just as well as a reductio ad absurdum argument
against a "neurological" theory of human intelligence.  What alternative
do you have?  Vitalism?
I hope this is not confusion about my earlier post.  I was speculating
about extraterresterial eusocial intelligences.  
--PKS
-- 
There's neither heaven nor hell
  Save that we grant ourselves.
There's neither fairness nor justice
  Save what we grant each other.
Peter Kwangjun Suk 
Musician, Computer Science Graduate Student
[finger suk@pobox.com for PGP public key]

Hi there,
sendero@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> To all of the morons involved: LetÆs see what we have to work with:
> Some photos.  Some speculations: dirt, geostationary satellite, lens
> flare, star, secondary mirror, unexplained object under intelligent
> control.
And - since you don't seem to care about probability: do not forget it  
could be false teeth in orbit.
Regards,
Bernhard
Bernhard Rems
bgrems@daheim.ping.at

	I have a question regarding the length of Earth's day and modern timekeeping.  It is my
understanding that the day is not exactly 24 hours long, but rather 23hrs, 56 min, 4s.  However,
since we measure a day as exactly 24 hours, why is it we don't have to turn our watches back an hour
every two weeks?
Shannon Mitchell
           SSSSSSSSS
         SSS       SS 
         SSS
           SSSSSS
                SSSSSSSSSSS
                         SSSS
                           SSS
    S                      SSS
    SSS                  SSSS
      SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
"The two greatest fools in life are the one who 
believes in everything and the one who believes
in nothing."
Shannon_Mitchell@mindlink.bc.ca

Hi there,
garyb@efn.org wrote:
> Actually, the astronomer who posted the photos thought that it could be
> a star also.  He checked, and re-checked his start chart and found that
> there is no star at that location.
>
> Reportedly, other astronomers are now seeing the same thing.
Reportedly? Who reported that other than you?
Regards,
Bernhard
Bernhard Rems
bgrems@daheim.ping.at

In article <56ligl$fan@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bp887@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Angel Garcia) wrote:
>   Just some 2 hours ago the rusian team has succesfully made the,
>via proton rocket, succesful launch of Mars-96 spacecraft.
>Congratulations from us an from all our planet Earth !.
>Everything went perfect and antennas are already deployed.
From the Mars 96 Web page (http://www.iki.rssi.ru/mars96/mars96hp.html):
WE HAVE NO REASON FOR CONGRATULATION
November, 17 - Unsuccessful result of M96 mission 
Mars-96 remains on Earth satellite orbit and will fall on Earth surface

suk@pobox.com (Peter Kwangjun Suk) wrote:
> In article <3280FAF0.61C92125@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis
>  wrote:
> 
> > Peter Kwangjun Suk wrote:
> > 
> > > We don't yet have any "xenological examples" to establish what is
> > > "universal" to intelligence and what is not.  And until we know more about
> > > intelligence, we have to rely on such data.  But this is
> > > rec.arts.sf.science, so we can speculate.  What do you folks think of the
> > > items on this list (as regards to being or not being universal attributes
> > > of intelligence):
> > > 
> > >         1) Language with syntax
> > 
> > Not necessarily; communication can probably take many forms, and this would
> > be just one.
> 
> But what others are there?  Perhaps imagery.  
What does it matter what form of communication is used? Verbal,
written, sign, scent, contact or even telepathy, as far as I can see,
any form of communication that enables the transmission of information
is, by definition, language. I'd say language without syntax is a
contradiction in terms.
I'm sure there are a very large number of people who would not
consider a bee intelligent. Yet their 'language' is capable of
communicating fairly detailed instructions, direction and distance
about the location of a food source (at the least).
Even if language is not considered a definite sign of intelligence, it
certainly (IMHO) an indicator of the possibility of  intelligence.
Allan

New Millennium wrote:
> 
> Richard A. Schumacher wrote:
> >
> > Uhh, no. The "mysterious object" is an ordinary star, overexposed
> > in a picture taken by an amateur:
> >
> Wrong. Your explanation doesn't wash. I have looked into several
> computer generated star charts from that night, time and location and
> there was not supposed to be a star in that location, much less of
> sufficient magnitude to account for the brightness. I assume you are one
> of the skepticult crowd trying to say that it was Star H5086.310? Yeah,
> right.
> 
> Try logging onto *his* site and you'll find the technical information on
> the telescope, exposure, charting program used, etc. and then respond to
> him *directly* instead of trying to "debunk" him in a forum where he is
> not here to respond.
>
Newmill, 
I had some hope after I saw this guy's page on the internet, but decided
to check for myself.  I found a Palomar Sky Survey photographic plate on
the exact right ascension and declination that Hale-Bopp was at that
date and time.   Sure enough, there was a star of the brightness and
size in the right place as seen in this guy's comet photo.
The Palomar Sky Survey charts are digitized and available at several web
sites on the internet.  You just type in coordinates and a field size
and it displays it on your screen.  Try this URL and choose the
Digitized Sky Survey through the basic interface and see for yourself:
http://skyview.gsfc.nasa.gov/
These are the coordinates:
R.A. 17h 49.5m
Dec. -2 16'

In <19961116.E045158.1409A@gwen.in-berlin.de> Mulder@aapsbsii.org (Fox)
writes: 
>Hi ppl !
>To let this very stupid comet hale-bopp nonsense-thread come to 
>an end... check out http://www.halebopp.com/hbobject.htm
>This is the webpage of the discoverers of the comet, and here you
>find the explanation. 
>This "object" is nothing but a star (SAO 41849), if you still
>think you know it better feel free to post your doubts.
>greets
>Fox
>A.A.P.S.B.S.I.I.
>[Agency Against Pseudo Science and Bullshit in the Internet]
Shouldn't the technical data found at the following site be 
refuted, rather than making vague allegations?  Wouldn't that
be more "scientific"?
                http://agora.rdrop.com/users/tifpc
                              select
                          INSTANT LINKS
                           then select
                        TECHNICAL DETAILS
See pictures, technical data, and CCD field of view map.
Have problems?  Write to the person responsible for the data, and 
post *THAT* *AND THE REPLY* and perhaps, then, we have an *ACTUAL
COMMUNICATION* about this issue.
There's an e-mail link at the site.
Vague generalities without facts are nothing
more than the *USUAL DECEIT* from the 
*CULT OF PEOPLE* I term,
                     SKEP-TI-CULT

>>>>> "JR" == Jon Roland  writes:
[...]
JR> Some comets are interstellar. That is, their orbits are
JR> hyperbolic,
 This is not correct.  No comet has been discovered with a hyperbolic
orbit (unless I've missed a recent discovery).  My copy of _The
Planetary System_ by Morrison & Owen (1987) states explicitly that
there have been no comets detected with hyperbolic orbits.  When I was
teaching the intro. astronomy course (1991), the prof. made much the
same statement to the class.
JR>  so that they are unbound to our sun, and will, after passing
JR> nearby once, leave the neighborhood of the sun and never return.
 This might be possible, due to perturbations from Jupiter.
--
Cornell knows I exist?!? | e-mail: lazio@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu
Lt. Lazio, HTML police   | http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/students/lazio/
    STOP RAPE            | ICBM:   42:29:56 N  76:28:53 W  305 m alt.
sci.astro FAQ at http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/students/lazio/sci.astro.html

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:15:31 GMT, west@sonic.net (Wes Thomas) wrote:
>Art Bell show reporting right now that an amateur astronomer has
>sighted a giant strange object visually near the Hale-Bopp comet. The
>object mysteriously appeared Wednesday night and resembles Saturn, but
>is "sefl-illuminating" with anomalously-even illumination, according
>to Chuck Shramek, an amateur astronomer in Houston. 
I've checked with Skymap, and of course everyone knows it is not
Saturn!!! Saturn was over 90 degrees away, (unless you have one heck
of a field of view :)
Dave

Shannon Mitchell wrote:
> 
>         I have a question regarding the length of Earth's day and modern timekeeping.  It is my
> understanding that the day is not exactly 24 hours long, but rather 23hrs, 56 min, 4s.  However,
> since we measure a day as exactly 24 hours, why is it we don't have to turn our watches back an hour
> every two weeks?
The 23hrs, 56 min, 4s you refer to is the length of the rotation of the earth on its 
axis, known as a sidereal (relative to the stars) day.  However, the earth is also 
revolving around the sun in the same direction as its rotation; i.e., from west to 
east, and this adds an additional 3 minutes, 56 seconds on average.  That is to say, an 
average (or mean) solar day is 3 minutes, 56 seconds longer than a sidereal day, which 
explains why the stars rise on average 3 minutes, 56 seconds earlier each night.  
Because the earth is tilted on its axis and moves at varying speeds around the sun due 
to its elliptical orbit, the average 3 minutes, 56 seconds can vary by up to 30 seconds 
-- see the recent thread on this board titled "analemma".

>>>>> "RS" == Robert Ssmith  writes:
RS> In article 
RS> lazio@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu (T. Joseph W. Lazio) writes:
>> [JPEG of Hale-Bopp zapped]
>> Please, sci.astro is not the appropriate group for posting images.
>> Use alt.binaries.pictures.astro or make the image available on a
>> Web or ftp site, with a short note to sci.astro announcing the
>> images availability.
RS> Waddaya mean it's not an appropriate place?  Posting it here saves
RS> having to look elsewhere for it.
 Well, with this logic, we might as well just have one big newsgroup,
news.  That would save us from looking elsewhere for anything, right?
 There's a reason we have news *groups*.  It's so that discussions can
be grouped by people's interests.  sci.astro is a group for the
discussion of the science of astronomy.  While it's quite true that
images are used in astronomy, one can also do astronomy without using
images and one can take astronomical images without intending to use
them scientifically.  Thus, a separate group exists for the exchange
of astronomical images, alt.binaries.pictures.astro.  
-- Joseph "And, yes, it would be nice if more people understood this
simple concept of news *groups* and posted only to the appropriate
groups."
--
Cornell knows I exist?!? | e-mail: lazio@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu
Lt. Lazio, HTML police   | http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/students/lazio/
    STOP RAPE            | ICBM:   42:29:56 N  76:28:53 W  305 m alt.
sci.astro FAQ at http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/students/lazio/sci.astro.html

In article <328B5389.2B17@magna.com.au>,
Mountain Man   wrote:
>Phil Fischer wrote:
>
>> What a bunch of moronic blather. The most stringent test of the perihelion
>> advance predicted by GR is the Taylor-Hulse pulsar. You might recall that
>> the discoverers of this pulsar (Taylor and Hulse) were recently awarded Nobel
>> prizes. This system has a much larger perihelion advance than
>> mercury. Observation and analysis of pulsar timing has yielded fantastic
>> agreement with GR. End of discussion.
>
>
>Hahahahahahaha .....  end of discussion.
>Hahahahahahaha .....  what an intellectual singularity.
>
>Of course - I forgot ... everyone who is awarded a Nobel prize is
>correct by default.   Certainly, if they were handing out such
>awards in the days of Ptolemy, then he would have received a few.
>
>Water joke ..... surf on .....
>
>Verily verily I say unto you ....
>
>   Those who are stuffed up proponents of the status quo have
>   already received the reward of their labor.
>
>I find sci.physics the most amusing newsgroup to read for this
>very reason ... "Know_it_Alls" - Please stand up and be recognised.
>
I notice in your response you fail to address the results of the analysis of
the Taylor-Hulse pulsar. I repeat, these observations are a far more stringent
test of GR than than the observations of mercury's perihelion advance. GR
passes these tests with flying colors. Perhaps your next response will actually
contain some scientific content? I doubt it.
Phil

Ron Baalke (baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov) writes:
> It appears Russia's Mars' 96 launch was not successful.  The spacecraft was
> launched into an Earth parking orbit today, but one of the upper stages
> apparently did not burn leaving the spacecraft stuck in Earth orbit. 
> It appears that the spacecraft will now reenter into Earth's atmosphere.
> 
> From the Mars '96 home page - http://www.iki.rssi.ru/mars96/news.htm
> 
>    WE HAVE NO REASON FOR CONGRATULATION
>    November, 17 - Unsuccessful result of M96 mission
>    Mars-96 remains on Earth satellite orbit and will fall on Earth surface
      Well, there are 101 things which can go wrong. Igor posted very recently
that the spacecraft was going O.K.
      If what you are saying, Ron, is confirmed then... what can we do and
 say ?... We suffer with all you, dear members of the rusian-german team !.
We are confident that next efforts in new project to Mars will succeed. This
one represents a big strap to all of us terrestrials: let us hope that
MGS will not suffer any more and reach there in the name of planet Earth.
--
Angel, secretary (male) of Universitas Americae (UNIAM).
     http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bp887

David L. Harris (david.harris@tcs.wap.org) writes:
> In article <56ligl$fan@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> bp887@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Angel Garcia) wrote:
> 
>>   Just some 2 hours ago the rusian team has succesfully made the,
>>via proton rocket, succesful launch of Mars-96 spacecraft.
>>Congratulations from us an from all our planet Earth !.
>>Everything went perfect and antennas are already deployed.
> 
> From the Mars 96 Web page (http://www.iki.rssi.ru/mars96/mars96hp.html):
> 
> WE HAVE NO REASON FOR CONGRATULATION
> November, 17 - Unsuccessful result of M96 mission 
> Mars-96 remains on Earth satellite orbit and will fall on Earth surface
    Yes, Ron, has already said it. What a disaster !. WE, all terrerstrials,
are with you, dear dirvers of Mars-96, in this sad day.
--
Angel, secretary (male) of Universitas Americae (UNIAM).
     http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bp887

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:15:31 GMT, west@sonic.net (Wes Thomas) wrote:
>Art Bell show reporting right now that an amateur astronomer has
>sighted a giant strange object visually near the Hale-Bopp comet. The
>object mysteriously appeared Wednesday night and resembles Saturn, but
>is "sefl-illuminating" with anomalously-even illumination, according
>to Chuck Shramek, an amateur astronomer in Houston. 
Here is a finder chart for 11-14-96 at 19:10 EST (which I believe
would make it 18:10 CST), showing the comet and the stars down to 12.0
mag.
Chart was made using Megastar.
Dave

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