Newsgroup sci.engr.surveying 3576

Directory

Subject: Re: Surveying Courses -- From: "cadastre"
Subject: Re: Software -- From: "cadastre"
Subject: Re: Surveying Courses -- From: "cadastre"
Subject: Boundary Law Seminar in NY -- From: rhc3@cornell.edu (Bob Chiang)
Subject: control monument data sheets -- From: LFXV45A@prodigy.com (Timothy Krisch)
Subject: Looking for SDR-33 Users -- From: kjmurphy@pilot.njin.net (Kevin Murphy)
Subject: Re: control monument data sheets -- From: dmulcar@ibm.net (Donald M. Mulcare)
Subject: Reminder: GPS in Forestry Workshop '96 -- From: ernst-s@vcr.feric.ca (Ernst Stjernberg)
Subject: Re: Single-receiver Accuracy -- From: Sam Wormley
Subject: Re: Single-receiver Accuracy -- From: WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US (Robert S. White)
Subject: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station -- From: "Neil Giesbrecht"
Subject: Geodetic Control -- Costa Rica -- From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Subject: Re: GPS vs Traditional Surveys -- From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Subject: Re: property line dispute -- From: papabear@roadrunner.com (Jerry Anderson)
Subject: Re: property line dispute -- From: papabear@roadrunner.com (Jerry Anderson)
Subject: Re: GPS vs Traditional Surveys -- From: jmurphy2@mindspring.com (Jim Murphy)
Subject: Compass Rule -- From: Jon Hoebelheinrich
Subject: Need Plotter cheap or alternatives!!! -- From: hadley@mars.ark.com (Dave Hadley)
Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station -- From: pmills@capecod.net (Paul)
Subject: Re: control monument data sheets -- From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Subject: Can somebody help? -- From: 3epkl@qlink.queensu.ca (Eric Lau)
Subject: Re: Need Plotter cheap or alternatives!!! -- From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station -- From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Subject: Re: Compass Rule -- From: saramc@cc.utexas.edu (Sara McMillan)
Subject: Dehli Air Crash - Feet vs Meters -- From: Ted Read
Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station -- From: n9649893@scooter.cc.wwu.edu (Paul Kunkel)
Subject: WTF Blaisdell Markers -- From: suplcat@acy.digex.net (Robert J. Catalano)

Articles

Subject: Re: Surveying Courses
From: "cadastre"
Date: 11 Nov 1996 16:36:49 GMT
This is a list of Universities and Colleges that offer surveying education.
 Perhaps some may have correspondence courses you may follow.
Best of luck
-- 
Gord Campbell
Cadastral Geomatics International Inc.
http://infoweb.magi.com/~cadastre/
7 Ste-Therese
Hull, Quebec - J9A 2M9
(819) 777-6054   -   Fax  777-6922
cadastre@magi.com
skippom@aol.com wrote in article
<19961111002300.TAA16529@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> I am looking for courses in Land Surveying and Geodetic Surveying that
can
> be taken over the internet or via mail.  I am a Registered Land Surveyor
> and have taken all of the local courses offered.  Many of my peers feel
> that there is a need to expand our education, but because we have
families
> to support, we cannot take 2 years off to finish college.  Most have 1 to
> 2 years of college in another major, and for personal reasons deceided to
> get into Surveying.  We realize the need for more study, but can't seem
to
> find out where we need to look.
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks
> Don Pomeroy
> skippom@aol.com
> 
> 
> 
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Subject: Re: Software
From: "cadastre"
Date: 11 Nov 1996 16:44:16 GMT
The following site contains a fairly comprehensive surveying software
listing;
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~maynard/software.htm
Stuart Dawson  wrote in article
...
> In article <55vo74$b4h@qvarsx.er.usgs.gov>, Kirk Miller
>  writes
> >
> >Can anyone recommend free or low-cost software for reducing
> >surveying data for point location determination and plotting?
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Subject: Re: Surveying Courses
From: "cadastre"
Date: 11 Nov 1996 16:50:45 GMT
My appologies - I neglected to include the URL for surveying education
sources
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~maynard/schools.htm
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Subject: Boundary Law Seminar in NY
From: rhc3@cornell.edu (Bob Chiang)
Date: 12 Nov 1996 14:52:25 GMT
Please note that the Southern Fingerlakes Association of Professional Land 
Surveyors is hosting a seminar entitled "Adjoining Landowner Boundary Law and 
Dispute Resolution" on November 22nd and 23rd in Corning, New York.  It is a 
comprehensive course with emphasis on New York State.  Subjects include 
definitions; descriptive elements; rules of construction for conflicting, 
inconsistent, or ambiguous descriptions; boundary disputes and resolution; 
encroachments; and adverse possession.  A text by the presenter, Kenneth 
Ayers, Esq. is included in the $145 fee.  CEUs awarded.
Lodging is available at the Radisson Hotel.  Corning is home of the Corning 
Glass Center and Museum, and near the National Soaring Museum and soaring 
capitol of the US.  There are numerous vineyards, wineries, scenic, historic 
and cultural sites in the surrounding area.
Please call Meg Shields,Executive Administrator, 315-455-1073 for additional 
information or to register.
-Bob Chiang, LS
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Subject: control monument data sheets
From: LFXV45A@prodigy.com (Timothy Krisch)
Date: 12 Nov 1996 16:58:49 GMT
Can anyone tell me the Url where I can obtain NGS data sheets over the 
internet? Any help will be appreciated
Timothy J. Krisch
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Subject: Looking for SDR-33 Users
From: kjmurphy@pilot.njin.net (Kevin Murphy)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:40:23 GMT
I am looking for help from sdr-33 users who are using attributes in
the dc.  I can not seem to edit the attribute after the shot is taken.
Is anybody having this same problem ? Any ideas when Sokkia will come
out with a new version of their software that will allow us to modify
the attributes when we want.  The application is down measures after
the mh has been located.  I know that Trimbles RTk software allows the
editing in the field and the software on the sdr-33 is very similar.
Any solutions would be appreciated.
tia
Kevin
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Subject: Re: control monument data sheets
From: dmulcar@ibm.net (Donald M. Mulcare)
Date: 12 Nov 1996 21:22:28 GMT
In <56aac9$2cbe@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, LFXV45A@prodigy.com (Timothy Krisch) writes:
>Can anyone tell me the Url where I can obtain NGS data sheets over the 
>internet? Any help will be appreciated
>
>Timothy J. Krisch
>
URL is http://www.ngs.noaa.gov
|====================================================|
|== Donald M. Mulcare                   email:dmulcar@ibm.net ==|
|== NGS Advisor to Maryland            410.545.8963 (voice)  ==|
|====visit the ngs home page at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov =====|
|====================================================|
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Subject: Reminder: GPS in Forestry Workshop '96
From: ernst-s@vcr.feric.ca (Ernst Stjernberg)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:32:10 GMT
                ***Reminder***
The "GPS in Forestry Workshop '96" will be held in Kelowna, British
Columbia, Canada, on November 25-27, 1996.
For information on the agenda, registration, and a list of exhibitors
see:
http://www.cariboo.bc.ca/schs/bcfcsn/bcfcsn.htm
The workshop is sponsored by:
Forest Engineering Research Institute of Canada (FERIC)
Contact:
Ernst Stjernberg
ernst-s@vcr.feric.ca
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Subject: Re: Single-receiver Accuracy
From: Sam Wormley
Date: 12 Nov 1996 22:52:31 GMT
Accuracy Statistics
                  Trimble's Acu-Lock on ScoutMaster
MIT Lincoln Laboratory's GLONASS group provided daily scatter plots of
GPS Position Estimates. See http://satnav.atc.ll.mit.edu/. It is obvious
that one's true position can be estimated using the average of positional
data collected over a long period... in this case 24 hours. I set out to
obtain an estimate of the repeatability of obtaining "true" position by
averaging over 24 hours.
If one obtains a sample of the population of computed positions and
computes the mean value for each sample, the sample mean values will be
normally distributed around the population mean, whether or not the
original population was normally distributed.
Using the Acu-Lock feature on Trimble's ScoutMaster GPS receiver the
following sample means (in meters) were collected. Each mean was derived
from 38000 samples automatically collected over a 24-hour period. 
The original data are reproduced here so that any reader may apply their
own statistical analysis to the data. My conclusion is that one has a
probability of .95 of being inside a circle of 5 meters (16.4 ft) radius 
when using the Acu-Lock feature on Trimble's ScoutMaster GPS over a 
24-hour period.
DATA                 -------Mean(meters)------ 
                     Easting   Northing  Alt   Date      Time (UT)
#,001,ACU.1.96.5.19 ,15,444912,T,4653491,00311,19-May-96,20:21:33,Acu-Lock,$
#,002,ACU.2.96.5.20 ,15,444917,T,4653488,00309,20-May-96,20:50:14,Acu-Lock,$
#,003,ACU.3.96.5.21 ,15,444915,T,4653492,00306,21-May-96,23:40:23,Acu-Lock,$
#,004,ACU.4.96.5.23 ,15,444909,T,4653493,00299,23-May-96,01:37:26,Acu-Lock,$
#,005,ACU.5.96.5.24 ,15,444919,T,4653490,00324,24-May-96,02:15:48,Acu-Lock,$
#,006,ACU.6.96.5.25 ,15,444917,T,4653493,00308,25-May-96,08:03:39,Acu-Lock,$
#,007,ACU.7.96.5.27 ,15,444915,T,4653493,00310,26-May-96,00:38:37,Acu-Lock,$
#,008,ACU.8.96.5.29 ,15,444916,T,4653491,00313,29-May-96,03:59:21,Acu-Lock,$
#,009,ACU.9.96.5.30 ,15,444917,T,4653489,00310,30-May-96,12:17:14,Acu-Lock,$
No of Sample Means      9
Range    Min            444909   4653488   299
         Max            444919   4653493   324
         Diff               10         5    25
Population Mean         444915.3 4653491.1 309.7 
SEM                     3.12     1.83      22.6
95% Conf Interval       6.12     3.59      44.4               
                     Scatter Plot 
            |---------- 10 meters ---------|
            .                  .     .           
                                                 |
                               .                 |
                                                 |
                      .           .              |
                                                 | 5 meters
                                           .     |
                                                 |
                                     .           |
                                                 |
                                     .           |      
"A measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
__________________________________________________
Sam Wormley - http://www.cnde.iastate.edu/gps.html
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Subject: Re: Single-receiver Accuracy
From: WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US (Robert S. White)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 01:34:35 GMT
In article <56av3f$1rp@news.iastate.edu>, swormley@cnde.iastate.edu says...
   ...snip...
>Using the Acu-Lock feature on Trimble's ScoutMaster GPS receiver the
>following sample means (in meters) were collected. Each mean was derived
>from 38000 samples automatically collected over a 24-hour period. 
   ... a very reasonable/realistic set of measurements...
>"A measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
  Bravo Sam!  The actual measurement data you present here is IMHO, very
typical and correlates well with data/measurements that I have accumulated
over the last 10 years with various receivers.  Thanks for taking the time
to post this.
_______________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White                    -- an embedded sys software engineer
WhiteR@CRPL.Cedar-Rapids.lib.IA.US --long/cheap alternate I-net address
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Subject: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station
From: "Neil Giesbrecht"
Date: 13 Nov 1996 02:31:50 GMT
With modern instruments is turning the angles twice on opposite sides of
the 'plate' necessary? In my case I own a Leica TC600 and turning angles
(actually bearings) twice on opposite faces is basically a pain in the ass
since the display is only on one side of the gun and it doesn't 'hold' the
foresight to use as the subsequent backsight. Does the circuitry of these
new guns make such a routine unnecessary?
It has me wondering
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Subject: Geodetic Control -- Costa Rica
From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 05:50:04 GMT
Anyone know where I might find information about geodetic control 
stations in Costa Rica?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
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Subject: Re: GPS vs Traditional Surveys
From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 05:48:11 GMT
In article <568o28$n8a@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
   arun gera  wrote:
>AT what 
>price point and performance levels will GPS overtake the optical 
>surveying market? 
As near as I can tell, GPS technology is still a long way from 
eliminating other forms of measurement.  Every time I start to fantasize 
about becoming a one-person survey crew by using RTK GPS equipment, I am 
reminded of the many, many situations in which measurements have to be 
made through little holes in the brush, up against tall buildings, 
through doorways, underneath overhangs, and in lots of other places that 
GPS signals cannot reach.  Even robotic total stations don't yet allow 
one to do away with an instrument operator except under favorable 
conditions.
GPS technology will undoubtedly continue to show increases in 
performance and decreases in cost for some time yet, but it seems to me 
that some form of optical total station will be part of the surveyor's 
tool kit for the foreseeable future.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
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Subject: Re: property line dispute
From: papabear@roadrunner.com (Jerry Anderson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 03:14:34 GMT
Edwin-
You have received a lot of good advice here ....
Let me STRONGLY second the motion that you get the two surveyors
together if possible.  If another surveyor has reached a different
solution than I have, I want to know about it IMMEDIATELY.  Chances
are one of us has information that the other fellow missed.  
If I'm wrong, I'd like an opportunity to correct my survey before
things get out of hand.  If I'm right, I'l like an opportunity to
convince my competitor of the error of his ways while he can still
retreat with dignity. 
>"Edwin Fehre"  wrote:
>My neighbor and I each have a different certified survey of our respective
>properties. The two surveys do not match. One survey puts the property line
>three feet away from that indicated on the other survey.
>How would the true property line be decided in a court of law? What would
>the court look at in making the determination? Any comments would be
>appreciated. 
---
papabear@roadrunner.com (Formerly Moosemeat@aol.com)
"It's time to throw all their damn tea in the harbor again!"
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Subject: Re: property line dispute
From: papabear@roadrunner.com (Jerry Anderson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 03:14:34 GMT
Edwin-
You have received a lot of good advice here ....
Let me STRONGLY second the motion that you get the two surveyors
together if possible.  If another surveyor has reached a different
solution than I have, I want to know about it IMMEDIATELY.  Chances
are one of us has information that the other fellow missed.  
If I'm wrong, I'd like an opportunity to correct my survey before
things get out of hand.  If I'm right, I'l like an opportunity to
convince my competitor of the error of his ways while he can still
retreat with dignity. 
>"Edwin Fehre"  wrote:
>My neighbor and I each have a different certified survey of our respective
>properties. The two surveys do not match. One survey puts the property line
>three feet away from that indicated on the other survey.
>How would the true property line be decided in a court of law? What would
>the court look at in making the determination? Any comments would be
>appreciated. 
---
papabear@roadrunner.com (Formerly Moosemeat@aol.com)
"It's time to throw all their damn tea in the harbor again!"
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Subject: Re: GPS vs Traditional Surveys
From: jmurphy2@mindspring.com (Jim Murphy)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 02:41:22 GMT
arun gera  posted the following: 
>I am trying to understand the relative strengths of GPS and optical 
>surveying equipment? Is GPS taking the market away from traditional 
>surveying equipment?
I see GPS as an augment or adjunct to traditional equipment.
Maybe in portions of the country that are wide open to the sky,
there will come a day when GPS will be the equipment of choice.
Or maybe we will see much, much stronger transmitters on the
replacement birds that can burn through leaves.  That won't do
much for buildings, though. 
> Do all surveyors use GPS (what percent do)?
My best guess in my state (NC) is that perhaps 5% of surveyors
have GPS capability, primarily the larger firms.  It's a long
ways from being cost effective for a one or two crew operation.
> AT what price point and performance levels will GPS overtake the optical 
>surveying market? 
>
When it costs the same thing as a total station and will work in
the deep woods reliably in real time without the Rube Goldberg
array of radio modems and antennae and other such potentially
problem prone components.  In other words, maybe ten years, maybe
a hundred, maybe never.  A better bet may be a system working
with the numerous FM sub-carriers transmitted.  We heard of a
system at Duke University that purportedly would determine a 3-D
position to a millimeter within a millisecond.  Cut through the
trees and woods and through buildings and everything.  It was
part of a graduate level MBA marketing program, and I don't know
if the system actually worked (they swore it did), but that will
be the magic black box we have dreamed of for years.  The
technology and physics appear, at least to me, to be workable,
although I doubt the millimeter stuff.  
On a slightly different note, how many users of GPS have found
uses that they never considered before?  One of our biggest
benefits is the ability to run open traverses with the terrestial
gear, tying each end to a GPS shot.  That is a huge timesaver and
we probably use that feature as much as control extension.  Just
today we ran 2500 feet of sewer profile and section, starting on
a GPS position and tying in to another.  We made no effort to tie
to a plane coordinate system, we just use the 3-D vector for a
redundancy check on the ground work. 
Also, who can justify the additional cost and complexity for RTK?
Maybe if you're doing construction staking at the Grand Canyon or
in the desert it can become cost effective.  What's the real
benefit of real time for any collection efforts?  And please
contrast the benefit of real time against the cost and complexity
of the current crop of equipment.
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Subject: Compass Rule
From: Jon Hoebelheinrich
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:29:55 -0800
I have an ongoing discussion with a friend on the proper procedure of using the compass 
rule on a closed traverse.  My friend believes that the angular error must be resolved 
before applying the adjustment.  I feel that the compass rule results in a closed 
polygon anyway, so why apply?  What is the correct procedure.  Textbooks do not address 
this issue directly, and software generally gives you the option of balancing angles or 
not.  I do not see the purpose of double adjusting a traverse but maybe it is not wrong, 
but just personal preference.  Somebody help, I would like to be doing this the correct 
way!
Jon
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Subject: Need Plotter cheap or alternatives!!!
From: hadley@mars.ark.com (Dave Hadley)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:36:26 GMT
Need Help!!
I work for an engineering firm which drafts maps for designing bridges
for forestry.  We just went total station and now just print out
northings and eastings with elevations and interpolate contours on a
rough plan.  Ideally, we are looking for a printer or plotter (very
basic) that will print out all our points so we can interpolate and
don't have to plot the points by hand.  We have a simple autocad, so
that is covered.  The problem is that we use 17*22 paper for our
designs and can't go smaller - thus the need for what appears to be a
plotter.  Looking around, the cheapest we've found is a Calcomp for
$2000 (Canadian) - we would prefer even cheaper as we don't care about
graphics, we just want the points.  The problem is the size (17*22) -
printers don't appear to go that large.
What are my options?  Is there good sites online for used plotters, or
is there a printer out there that can print 17*22????
Help me out.
Dave
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Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station
From: pmills@capecod.net (Paul)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 17:02:02 GMT
In article <01bbd10a$d11f7b00$7046aecc@neilkg.netshop.net>,
   "Neil Giesbrecht"  wrote:
>With modern instruments....
[...]
 Does the circuitry of these
>new guns make such a routine[doubling] unnecessary?
What "circuitry" does not eliminate are errors caused by mechanical things, 
such as eccentricity of the spindle bearing thingie and collimation error, 
etc.  I dont think that tolerances in instruments has really improved much in 
hte last 50 years, and electronic readouts give a false sense of precision.  I 
have a mechanical clock that keeps better time than my digital clock radio.
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Subject: Re: control monument data sheets
From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 17:52:45 GMT
In article <56aac9$2cbe@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>,
   LFXV45A@prodigy.com (Timothy Krisch) wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the Url where I can obtain NGS data sheets over the 
>internet? Any help will be appreciated
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/page2.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
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Subject: Can somebody help?
From: 3epkl@qlink.queensu.ca (Eric Lau)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 00:34:12 GMT
Hi, I am an undergraduate student from Queen's University, Canada and I am 
currently doing research for a business course I am taking.  Would anyone fill 
out a form for me posted at the following web site?  It will only take a minute 
and it will be very helpful for our project.  Thankyou for your time and sorry 
for the interruption.
Web Site:
	http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3zk/quest.html  
							Eric Lau
							Queen's University
							Chemical Engineering
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Subject: Re: Need Plotter cheap or alternatives!!!
From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 02:51:56 GMT
In article <3289d992.2214136@news.ark.com>,
   hadley@mars.ark.com (Dave Hadley) wrote:
>Ideally, we are looking for a printer or plotter (very
>basic) that will print out all our points so we can interpolate and
>don't have to plot the points by hand.  We have a simple autocad, so
>that is covered.  The problem is that we use 17*22 paper for our
>designs and can't go smaller - thus the need for what appears to be a
>plotter.
I recall the days when we plotted points on a wide-carriage dot-matrix 
printer, taping sheets together as necessary, then overlaying the plots 
with film or vellum for the actual drafting.  It sounds like you have 
some sort of low-end CAD software already ("autocad"), which should be 
able to do some simple printer plotting, so maybe this will work for 
you.
Thinking back to those days makes me really appreciate the way we do 
things now...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
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Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station
From: jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us (Jim Frame)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 02:44:51 GMT
In article <01bbd10a$d11f7b00$7046aecc@neilkg.netshop.net>,
   "Neil Giesbrecht"  wrote:
>With modern instruments is turning the angles twice on opposite sides 
>of the 'plate' necessary?
I asked this same question some years back, and was told that modern 
total stations have at least two sensors spread about the angle plate, 
and that readings are averaged from all sensors.  If this is true (I 
have no independent verification) you're not likely to eliminate much 
error by using different starting points on the plate.
Note that you still need to turn direct and inverted in order to remove 
axis error.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Frame   jhframe@dcn.davis.ca.us    (916) 756-8584  756-8201 (FAX)
Frame Surveying & Mapping         609 A Street        Davis, CA 95616
-----------------------< Davis Community Network >-------------------
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Subject: Re: Compass Rule
From: saramc@cc.utexas.edu (Sara McMillan)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 07:01:39 GMT
In article <32894EC3.26E5@flash.net>, Jon Hoebelheinrich  says:
>
>I have an ongoing discussion with a friend on the proper procedure of using the compass 
>rule on a closed traverse.  My friend believes that the angular error must be resolved 
>before applying the adjustment.  I feel that the compass rule results in a closed 
>polygon anyway, so why apply?  What is the correct procedure.  Textbooks do not address 
>this issue directly, and software generally gives you the option of balancing angles or 
>not.  I do not see the purpose of double adjusting a traverse but maybe it is not wrong, 
>but just personal preference.  Somebody help, I would like to be doing this the correct 
>way!
I wonder whether possibly you would benefit from a different textbook(s). Any text
that does not give a proper treatment of the adjustment of survey traverses is a 
pretty unpromising basis for an education in surveying.
The adjustment of survey measurements arises as a problem in the first place because
it is impossible to measure any physical quantity such as an angle, distance, or 
height difference without some error.  Our measurements are properly thought of as
estimates - very good estimates if we are doing well - but still only estimates.  The
inevitable small errors propagate through the survey and appear (in the case of
loop and line traverses) as angular misclosures and coordinate misclosures.  Survey
adjustments try to distribute the apparent measurement errors according to some 
reasonable scheme.
The Compass Rule (also known as Bowditch's Rule, after the man who invented it 
roughly two hundred years ago) is simply one scheme for distributing apparent 
measurement errors.  In modern surveying practice it is being (has been) superceded
by the Method of Least Squares.  Least Squares is not exactly late-breaking news
either, having been around for about 190 years.  But unlike the venerable Compass
Rule, it requires zippy computers and good software to make it useful for land
surveyors, and these have not been around until somewhat more recently.
You can test the reasonableness of the two options that you and your friend are
discussing by adjusting a sample traverse with a significant misclosure (but no
blunders).  Compare the angles and side lengths of the two adjustment results to the
original field measurements.  Which is more reasonable?  In the scheme that you favor,
the adjusted angle at the end of the traverse will probably differ from the actual
measurement by an amount that looks unreasonably large compared to that yielded by
your friend's method.
The fact that a method enables you to produce a figure of a closed polygon is trivial.
You could have accomplished the same thing by omitting one leg from the traverse
and two angles - and wisely decided not to.
Good luck!
Kent McMillan, RPLS
Austin  TX
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Subject: Dehli Air Crash - Feet vs Meters
From: Ted Read
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:38:10 +0000
One of the possible causes cited at the Dehli air crash is that the
Russian aircraft was using metric instruments and international air
traffic control use feet. The Russian aircraft was instructed to descend
to 15000ft (4572m), the Saudi aircraft was cleared to ascend to 14000ft
(4267m). Assuming the Russian pilot was multiplying his altimeter by
three for feet and there was no instrument error he was actually
descending to between 12800 and 13700 ft!
Is 1000ft vertical separation any use without standard instruments?
-- 
Ted Read                             "If you are not confused,
L.M.Technical Services Ltd.       its because you do not completly
tel: 44(0)1590 677971            understand the situation" - G.B.Shaw 
fax: 44(0)1590 677972
email: ted@lmts.demon.co.uk --- Webpages: http://www.lmts.demon.co.uk
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Subject: Re: 'Double-ing(?) angles with a total station
From: n9649893@scooter.cc.wwu.edu (Paul Kunkel)
Date: 13 Nov 96 08:55:55 GMT
"Neil Giesbrecht"  writes:
>With modern instruments is turning the angles twice on opposite sides of
>the 'plate' necessary? In my case I own a Leica TC600 and turning angles
>(actually bearings) twice on opposite faces is basically a pain in the ass
>since the display is only on one side of the gun and it doesn't 'hold' the
>foresight to use as the subsequent backsight. Does the circuitry of these
>new guns make such a routine unnecessary?
     If every moving part on an instrument were adjusted or compensated to
pinpoint precision, then it would make no difference.  But if the
instrument could not go out of adjustment, then there would be no need for
a calibration procedure.  It is not a perfect world.  By using both faces,
we make that a moot point.  The error, big or small, is turned against
itself.  Without this procedure, we are taking a lot for granted. 
     I once test-ran a very inexpensive Leica total station at a
convention.  That may have been the TC600.  It appeared to be built for
staking and topo, the kind of work that requires little high-order
traversing.  One-sided angles may be safer now that such things as
dual-axis compensation and stored error constants are available, but does
that instrument even have those features? 
     Kunkel
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Subject: WTF Blaisdell Markers
From: suplcat@acy.digex.net (Robert J. Catalano)
Date: 13 Nov 1996 12:00:20 GMT
Has anyone found a substitute for the "out of business" Blaisdell Nick and Pull?  
Where to find and where to buy would be deeply appreciated.
-- 
-------------------------------------
E-mail: suplcat@acy.digex.net
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