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Juan Vitali wrote:
> In fact
> you are handicapped 'cause everybody thinks you are overqualified for
> just about any job. STAY THE HELL AWAY OF THE PHD ROUTE....
If you have a Ph.D. you always have the option of not including it on 
your resume.  When I finished my MS in physics (1987), I proudly put the 
degree on my resume and went off to look for work.  After several months 
of looking with not so much as a form letter response to my resume I was 
desperate for money.  I removed all my degrees from my resume, including 
my undergraduate degree, and made up a story that I had to drop out of 
college after two years and had worked various jobs out of state.  I 
credited the skills and knowledge I developed in graduate school to 
several fictitious companies.  I don't know if it's ethical to hide your 
achievements, but I got a fairly good paying job within four weeks.
I have a Ph.D. now.  The main reason I got the degree is my love of 
physics.  Along the way I also discovered that many Ph.D.'s undervalue or 
completely discount arguments and suggestions made by people without 
Ph.D.'s.  So a secondary reason for completeing my degree was to provide 
a means for forcing such assholes to listen to my ideas.  
Working on the degree can be a wonderful opportunity but you should 
minimize borrowing since it is unlikely your first job will pay enough to 
enable you to pay back your loans and live like a human being.  I think 
if you can present your skills properly, the degree can be used to open 
doors that will otherwise remain closed to you.
-- 
___________________________________
Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.
University of Georgia Research Foundation, Inc.
630 Boyd Graduate Studies Research Center
Athens, GA  30602-7411
Phone 706-542-3819 Fax 706-542-5638

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This thread has gone on so long I thought I'd put my two cents in.
Let me state where I am comming from:  I'm a EE and a PE.  I don't have
to be a PE, never have.  I waited 10 years after graduation to take the
EIT because I had a job interview the day of the EIT at graduation.  I
am active in NSPE but not politics.
A few observations:  There are very qualified engineers who are not
PE's.  In fact I have even known a couple who were not college
graduates, but for whom I hold the highest respect.
There are some PE's who frankly are just not someone I would trust to do
any work for me.  What I have observed is that the probability of
someone being highly qualified, capable, and ethical seems to increase
among PE's  Is this self selection, concern for the license, or some
other factor?  I do not know.
In general, those who have their license seem to be more careful to
protect their license than those who do not have a license -- again not
always, just on the average.
The testing and experience requirements are indeed a high barrier to a
licensed status, especially for those who did not take the EIT (or
fundamentals exam) right out of college.  But the non-PE engineers I
know who object to the exam requirements most loudly are those who in my
opinion are those most likely to not pass if they took it.
Those engineers who took the exam -- especially when they did not have
to -- seem to be those who are willing to stand-up and say to the world,
"I'm a professional. I'm willing subscribe to a set of behavior
standards that go beyond my immediate job requirements.  I'm willing to
overcome a major barrier to openly state these things that I stand for."
If you are not a licensed engineer, how strongly are you willing to
state to the public at large the profession related things that you
stand for?
> >As for the rip-off artists, titles will never do anything to stop them -

Peter  wrote:
>Gary,
>Thanks, for pointing that out. Out of the three of us working on this
>survey one of them is female. She is actually the one whom came up with
>the start of the survey. I questioned her about the wording and she said
>it didn't matter. I for one am open to both male and female co-workers.
>I  am not sexists at all.
I'm married to the drafting supervisor at a local plant. She flatly prefers
drafter or draftsperson but wouldn't make an issue of it, after all there
are real problems to be dealt with. 
As I want to stay married another twenty years, I'll be polite. 
Most sexism is lazyness, insensitivity or stupidity. There is a slight
possibility that your drafter considers you incorrigible in that way and
dosen't feel you're worth the emotional energy and career risk involved.
--
Peter Skelton
Skelton & Associates
613/634-0230
pgs@adan.kingston.net

Gary Lynn Kerr  shared these priceless pearls of
wisdom:
->To whom ever wrote that the term draftsMEN was not correct.
Well, as the person that started this little side thread, let me do a short
reply:
For whatever little cosmic joke, She made the male of the species
physically dominant, speaking from a statisitical point of view.  In the
days of the hunter-gatherer, that made the male the food supplier.  If the
female didn't please the male, she didn't eat.  Ain't THAT a fancy reward
system?  Sure as little green apples weeds out the uppity ones in a jolly
quick hurry.
Gandhi once was asked his views on Western Civilization.  He said it would
be a wonderful idea.  For whatever reason, most of the Western languages
from Latin on have carried on that old caveman mentality and made the
female a subset (superset?) of the male verbiage.  (puer-puella; senor,
senora,senorita; man, woman, ...)  Hey, you english majors can do much
better than I with the analysis.
Anyway, this is the celebration (and I use that word tongue FIRMLY in
cheek) of my 40th year in the electronics game and my 30th as an engineer.
Those of you who went to school back in the early '60s remember the one
female that graduated with the rest of the hundreds of engineers in our
classes.  I'm not sure what the ratio is today, but it is one hell of a lot
higher than a fraction of a percent.  Back in 'dem good ole days the only
females in the lab were generally the assemblers with their tiny little
fingers that could get parts into places that we didn't even know had
places, and the ubiquitous secretary-typist.
In that time, I've taken a side trip into politics and had to deal with
city council***, been chair*** of the board, and had to make policy for
garbage***, drafts***, and all the rest of it.  At one time, the road
department drafts*** demanded to be called "cadastral delineators" and we
had to rewrite the computer program for the personnel department to accept
21 characters instead of the traditional 16 for a job title.  That sucks.
Yes, I hate the forced "person" nomenclature, too.  In the first place,
"city councilperson" won't fit on the nameplate.  In the second, it sounds
like hell.  But as yet, we haven't come up with a GOOD sex-neutral word
other than "person" or "human", both of which contain male nouns.  As I'm
led to believe, per-son was just that, an entity that came into being
through (per) the action of the male (son).  The etymology of "human"
escapes me.
My point, and my ONLY point, was that the language we grew up with in the
'50s and '60s (and where do you think most of the college professors today
fit, myself included?) could stand some rework as the playing field BEGINS
to level out.  I didn't say draftsMAN was wrong, but there are better words
and my thought was that a kid about to graduate from college ought to start
thinking about them PRIOR to catching hell in the workplace.
Then again, I'm told that Texas is about to be dragged kicking and
screaming into the nineteenth century.  There's an old story about the
Trans-Texas airline captain that announced on the intercom that, "Ladies
and gentlemen, we're making our approach to Houston.  Please set your
watches back a hundred years."
Hey, I've got some sabertooth tiger steaks in the box.  How 'bout a
barbecue?
Jim
Jim Weir VP Engineering | You bet your sweet patootie I speak for the
RST Engineering         | company.  If I don't, ain't nobody gonna.
Grass Valley CA 95945   | 
http://www.rst-engr.com | AR Adv WB6BHI--FCC 1st phone---Cessna 182A N73CQ
jim@rst-engr.com        | Commercial/CFI-Airplane/Glider-A&P-FAA; Counselor

Richard Logan  wrote:
>Juan Vitali wrote:
>> In fact
>> you are handicapped 'cause everybody thinks you are overqualified for
>> just about any job. STAY THE HELL AWAY OF THE PHD ROUTE....
>If you have a Ph.D. you always have the option of not including it on 
>your resume.  When I finished my MS in physics (1987), I proudly put the 
>degree on my resume and went off to look for work.  After several months 
>of looking with not so much as a form letter response to my resume I was 
>desperate for money.  I removed all my degrees from my resume, including 
>my undergraduate degree, and made up a story that I had to drop out of 
>college after two years and had worked various jobs out of state.  I 
>credited the skills and knowledge I developed in graduate school to 
>several fictitious companies.  I don't know if it's ethical to hide your 
>achievements, but I got a fairly good paying job within four weeks.
>I have a Ph.D. now.  The main reason I got the degree is my love of 
>physics.  Along the way I also discovered that many Ph.D.'s undervalue or 
>completely discount arguments and suggestions made by people without 
>Ph.D.'s.  So a secondary reason for completeing my degree was to provide 
>a means for forcing such assholes to listen to my ideas.  
>Working on the degree can be a wonderful opportunity but you should 
>minimize borrowing since it is unlikely your first job will pay enough to 
>enable you to pay back your loans and live like a human being.  I think 
>if you can present your skills properly, the degree can be used to open 
>doors that will otherwise remain closed to you.
>-- 
>___________________________________
>Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.
>University of Georgia Research Foundation, Inc.
>630 Boyd Graduate Studies Research Center
>Athens, GA  30602-7411
>Phone 706-542-3819 Fax 706-542-5638
At my most recent job interview, I applied for a research technician
position-no degree required.  I figured that since the work was not an
area in which I had direct experience, I could work for a few months
as a tech, then hopefully move  into an engineering position.    I was
interviewed while standing up in the waiting room.  Because of my
general technical expertise, I was told I could probably do the job
very well, with one hand tied behind my back.  But I was also told
that I would completely upset the chemistry of the company, as they
tend to give people responsibility quickly and push them to exceed
their current level.  Since my level would already be far above that
required for the position, it upset the balance.  Reluctantly, the
fellow that spoke to me (I hesitate to call it an interview) kept my
resume.  I wonder what happened to it...    Perhaps I should have
deleted all those degrees and publications from the resume.  Things
that make you go hmmmmmm.
For the record, here is my salary history:
1982  BS/MS  started at $27k
1985 still at same company, making ~$32K.  
         Got two job offers, for $40K each, 
         one with a $5k signing bonus.
         Got accepted into Ph.D. program.
        Guess what, I went back to school.  
1990 After beating the bushes hard, finally found a job as a test
        engineer for $44K
1991 Found R&D; engineering position with small company for $50K.
1996 Laid-off, salary of $55K.  When $$$$ got short, the highest paid
         employee (aside from pres/owner) was let go. 
I'm not an economics major, but if you want to do a Ph.D. for the
money, you figure it out.  

Harris Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> A few observations:  There are very qualified engineers who are not
> PE's.  In fact I have even known a couple who were not college
> graduates, but for whom I hold the highest respect.
> 
Being from Canada, where the above statement (with P.Eng. replacing
P.E.), is almost certainly true, I won't make any comments on its
validity in the States (different rules--in Canada virtually every
engineer has a P.Eng.)
However, I can hear the flamethrowers warming up south of the border...
;-)
-Paul

> Gary Lynn Kerr wrote:
> >
> > To whom ever wrote that the term draftsMEN was not correct.  GET A LIFE!
> > When the word men/man is used in a word it is generic and means mankind.
> > And a female boss has a problem with it she has too much time on her
> > hands.  Also that same feMALE boss probably would not liked being
> > referred to as feMALE/woMEN.  As I said before GET A LIFE!
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Nov
> > 1996, Jim Weir wrote:
> >
> > > Peter  shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
> > >
> > > ->ATTENTION ALL ENGINEERS AND DRAFTSMEN:
> > >
> > > I'd suggest before you get out into the real world with a female boss that
> > > you find another word for "draftsMEN".
> > > >
Well, I AM a woman draftman, and I couldn't care less!  Won't it be nice 
when women can be secure enough in their equality to not fuss about 
minor issues??
Su Elliott
Mayer/Reed

In article <3289F846.1CF3@OVPR.UGA.EDU> Richard Logan  writes:
>Juan Vitali wrote:
>> In fact
>> you are handicapped 'cause everybody thinks you are overqualified for
>> just about any job. STAY THE HELL AWAY OF THE PHD ROUTE....
>
>If you have a Ph.D. you always have the option of not including it on 
>your resume.  When I finished my MS in physics (1987), I proudly put the 
>degree on my resume and went off to look for work.  After several months 
>of looking with not so much as a form letter response to my resume I was 
>desperate for money.  I removed all my degrees from my resume, including 
>my undergraduate degree, and made up a story that I had to drop out of 
>college after two years and had worked various jobs out of state.  I 
>credited the skills and knowledge I developed in graduate school to 
>several fictitious companies.  I don't know if it's ethical to hide your 
>achievements, but I got a fairly good paying job within four weeks.
>
	I don't think it is unethical to leave your degrees off
	your resume, but lying about ficticious companies is most
	certainly unethical.  If I discovered an employee had done 
	this he would be fired immediately.  How can an employer
	trust you to have ethical judgement after discovering that?
	On the other hand, whoever hired you after four weeks obviously
	did not do an adequate job of verifying your resume and 
	references.
	Mike
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael C. Baker		   	 baker@groves.neep.wisc.edu 
Engineering Research Bldg., 1500 Engineering Dr., Madison, WI 53706
-------------------------------------------------------------------   

Lew Kurtz wrote:
> 
> are familiar with, and not many people are familiar with what a megameter
> is (maybe it is a really big electric meter  ;-)
Don't know if they are still around in this age of digital electronic
everything, but there used to be special ohmmeters called meggers, made
especially for measuring resistances in the multi-megohm range.
- Karl
-- 
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
                        - Kosh Naranek

Mike Baker wrote:
> 
>         I don't think it is unethical to leave your degrees off
>         your resume, but lying about ficticious companies is most
>         certainly unethical.  If I discovered an employee had done
>         this he would be fired immediately.  How can an employer
>         trust you to have ethical judgement after discovering that?
> 
>         On the other hand, whoever hired you after four weeks obviously
>         did not do an adequate job of verifying your resume and
>         references.
I agree completely.  Maybe there's a better way to explain away the years 
you have to hide when you take degrees off your resume but I couldn't think 
of one.  This is just an example of the desperate actions you might have to 
take when you're told you're over qualified for the jobs you apply for, 
when your credit cards are maxxed out and when your checking account says 
zero.
-- 
___________________________________
Richard J. Logan, Ph.D.

bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)  wrote on 05.11.96 in <55nuqq$220c@sat.ipp-garching.mpg.de>:
> You are neglecting the most important reason for that use of symbols:
> speed.  It is always faster to recognise a symbol than a couple of
> words, and these exploitative corporations actually do research to find
> out how fast they can drive their organic production units before they
> break down.
It's definitely not always faster. Much depends on the symbols and words  
in question.
Typical examples are many modern software toolbars, where you need to look  
in the manual to find out what those icons are supposed to mean. *If* the  
manual tells you.
Kai
--
Internet: kai@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/

peeverd@cadvision.com (David Peever)  wrote on 04.11.96 in <55lm56$3tu0@elmo.cadvision.com>:
> Is there any particular reason that the person on the street use the metric
> system?  Of course the scientific community will use S.I. -- what's that
> got to do with pricing gas by the litre or the gallon?
The reason usually cited over here is to avoid advertizing problems. If  
one car is advertized using PS and another using kW, or one station sells  
fuel (gas, petrol, depending on which side of the ocean you live) by the  
gallon and another by the lit(er/re), the "person on the street" will have  
trouble. So (the reasoning goes) someone has to decide which units to use.
Most of the time, I like the results.
By the way, a similar reasoning gave us rules that some type of stuff has  
to quote price per kg, or amount of additive per 100 g, or effective  
interest per year. This helps a lot if you try to compare products.
Kai
--
Internet: kai@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/

gnygaard@crosby.ndak.net (Gene Nygaard)  wrote on 05.11.96 in <55o7vt$ql5@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com>:
> wa2ise@netcom.com (Robert Casey) wrote:
>
> >We American ham radio operators routinely use metric measurements, for
> >things like radio wavelengths (80 meters, 40 meters, 2 meters) and
> >then there are electrical measurements where the metric system is the
> >only ball game in town.  Amps, Volts, Watts, and such.
>
> >One minor annoyance is that the word "meter" also refers to those
> >devices that measure volts and amps and such.  "2 meters" by itself
> >could mean the 146MHz ham band, or a pair of voltmeters.
> >....
>
> If you read some of the other articles, you will know that this
> annoyance is almost exclusively a U.S. problem.  Even the Canadians
> usually spell the unit of measure "metre" and the measuring instrument
> "meter".
Actually, we spell both "Meter" in German, and I don't remember ever  
having any trouble with it. It seems to be obvious from the context,  
always.
Kai
--
Internet: kai@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/

Mayer/Reed wrote:
> Well, I AM a woman draftsman, and I couldn't care less!  Won't it be nice
> when women can be secure enough in their equality to not fuss about
> minor issues??
> 
> Su Elliott
> Mayer/Reed
Thank you Su,  this is what I was getting at!  We all should have a lot more to worry about 
than titles...
-- 
Andy Kidd   kidd@inetdirect.net   http://netdirect.net/~kidd
"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child. Teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise. Follow him."---Author unkown

Raymond G. Zinn wrote:
> !!!!!! AMEN !!!!!!!
> People who try to change a language to suit their views should study the
> lexicon of it first. 
all people change language to suit their views.
Words do not mean what we want, they mean what are.
> --
I generally agree with you on this specific point (the get a life
point), but language is not as fixed and objective as you seem to
think.  Language IS political:  One man's terrorist is another man's
freedom fighter, to name a trivial example.

Version 3.4 of Calc95 is available for download from our web-site at:
http://www.fdgroup.co.uk/neo/fsi/calcs95.htm
Calc95 is sci/eng calculator with units conversions and physical 
constants and properties.
Registration is free.   
Regards,
Flow Simulation International Ltd.
fsi_info@fdgroup.co.uk

p.kerr@auckland.ac.nz (Peter Kerr)  wrote on 07.11.96 in :
> kai@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) wrote:
> > For example (real life example), I've got a wall of approx. 4.25 m, which
> > I want to put book cases at. I can get boards 1.20 m or 0.80 m long. Guess
> > what? 2*1.20+2*0.80 = 4.00, and there's a rest of 0.25 m which will
> > remain, as getting custom boards would cost about twice as much, and
> > that's not worth it.
> >
> .de is Germany, so how come you found a 14 feet long wall? ;-)
I didn't. There's some more distance on that wall, only it's unusable for  
book cases for various reasons (door, other stuff). (14 feet? That's a  
little under 4.27 m, not 4.25 - and anyway that was approximately off my  
head. Once I decided it's going to be 4 m boards, I promptly forgot about  
the exact number.)
By the way, how high are US doors? I'm accustomed to think of doors as 2 m  
high. That would be a little under 6 1/2 ft? I think I prefer 2 m.
Kai
--
Internet: kai@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!khms.westfalen.de!kai
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/

Here's my two cents on tools for engineers and drafters (notice generic
term ;-)
I-DEAS
Structural Dynamics Research Corp (SDRC) have a product known as
I-DEAS.  It's a high-end CAD/CAM/CAE tool with excellent drafting,
designing and analysis capability all 100% integrated into one package. 
You should check it out.
www.sdrc.com
Peter wrote:
> 
> ATTENTION ALL ENGINEERS AND DRAFTSMEN:
> 
> I am a student at the Texas Tech University Engineering Department and I
> am currently
>......
> 
> 1.  Which drafting software does your company currently use?
I-DEAS
> 
> 2.  Does this software meet your needs?
yes
> 
> 3.  Do you anticipate any changes in your needs which would warrant
> implementation of a new
>         software package within the next five years?
> 
> 4.  If there was one software package that a new student out of college
> should know, what would
>         you suggest?
>
I_DEAS

This is a message for people in your area who share a common
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important as the information itself.
This is a message for people in your area who share a common
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important as the information itself.
Fieldworker is a data collection software which runs on a 
Hand Held Computer. You can record the information, and then
tag that data with longitude and latitude coordinates from the
GPS Receiver. Transfer this information to any Pc or Mac to
create spreadsheet analyses, databases and precise graphic
images. 
We're finding that people in Engineering need a more accurate
and efficient yet simple method of collecting the information in
the field. 
As a result, we are trying to inform as many people as we can
within this industry to let them know that a solution exists.
Want to know more or be kept informed?  Visit our web site,
send an e-mail or call us. 
=======================================================
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I am interested in any references you may provide on the subject of "DRY
ICE" (CO2).  Particularly,   the mechanics of making it on a small scale
for use in  a consumer product.   

>My question is why, when I attached flashlight bulbs rated at 2.33 Volts
>and 0.6 Amp and 2.33 volts and  0.27 Amps  to the circuit,  did the bulbs
>NOT light up.... ?
>Does this have something to do with the Amperage produced...or not
>produced through this reaction..... how can this be explained and or how
>can amperage be 
>measured ??? 
Bingo! There's just not enough chemicals reacting at each moment
to give sufficient current to light a bulb. At a guess you might
get micro Amps from such a circuit. The low resistance of such
a bulb drags the voltage of the fruit battery down to almost 
nothing. The fruit battery has a high internal resistance.
Measuring such a small current requires a
rather sensitive ammeter. You can make one: take an insulated wire
and coil it a dozen turns around a pencil. Remove the pencil,
connect each end of the wire to the fruit battery, and bring
the coil near a compass. There should be enough current to make
enough magnetic field to affect the compass. See how distance
affects the response. Try more and fewer turns of wire. Try the
same number of turns but a larger or smaller coil. Try different
thicknesses of wire. Visit that excellent public library and
see what you can find in the card catalog about electricity.
>P.S.  I also tried connecting two fruits in series and while the voltage
>increased significantly the bulb still did not light up.....
Put them in series and you will get the same voltage, but more
current will be available. Still not enough for an incandescent
bulb, though.

Along I-15 between LA and Las Vegas (and I assume further?), distances
are given both in miles and km.  Is there a reason for this
(e.g. military purposes?  The Mojave Desert is full of bases).
Also, the mileage sign for Pasadena as you get off the 110 freeway
at Orange Grove Blvd. says "<- Pasadena 2  (3.2 km)", for
all metric people at Caltech?

Actually guys and gals.....
I think there are many valid points to this thread... but please allow
me to throw my 2 cents in.  I am not a **Professional Engineer**,  I
am a Licensed Engineer (Chief Engineer Grade A) licensed in the State
of Minnesota.  I will not even pretend that I can design a controls
system or engineer a structure;  what I CAN (and do) do, is operate
and maintain the equipment that (some of) you design.  Some of this
equipment is top-notch... some is less (much) than that.  I am sure
that many of us could share "war" stories about "this equipment" or
"that software" that failed at a critical time, and caused (at the
very least) chaotic conditions.   I think the crux of it is this:  we
are people, no more, no less... and must realize our own personal and
professional limitations .... tempered with ethical consideration,
when we design, develop, implement, and yes, operate  ANY system.
And for those of you who may be in "the field" just to make a buck, or
who just like to have a bunch of letters behind their name... I pity
you.
-R-
troy penke
mailto:phoenix@rconnect.com
"When God made the platypus, He laughed"
>On 13 Nov 1996 06:15:28 GMT, dano@cyberramp.net wrote:
>In <3288BB73.6B11@cfer.ualberta.ca>, Paul Skoczylas  writes:
>>dano@cyberramp.net wrote:
>> writes:
>>> >It seems to me that it's like saying when a building
>>> >collapses, the building killed people, rather than the people who
>>> >designed/constructed the building killed people.
<>
  People USUALLY know what is intended.  For
>example, consider the phrase "Guns kill people".  When of course guns
>are the tools, and it is people who kill people.
<>

> ATTENTION ALL ENGINEERS AND DRAFTSMEN:
> 
> 1.  Which drafting software does your company currently use?
> 
AutoCad R12 (currently), R13 (in the next few weeks)
> 2.  Does this software meet your needs?
> 
Yes.
> 3.  Do you anticipate any changes in your needs which would warrant
> implementation of a new
>         software package within the next five years?
> 
I do not forsee the need for an implementation of a completely new
software package, with the exception of upgrades.
> 4.  If there was one software package that a new student out of college
> should know, what would
>         you suggest?
Definitely AutoCad.  A majority of the engineering and architecture
firms I work with
use AutoCad.  It seems to have become almost a standard in CAD.
Good luck with the survey.  I would be interested in having you post or
e-mail me the
results.
--Marc
P.S. Gig'em Aggies!!!!
	TAMU c/o '95
	WHOOP!

On Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:17:19 -0600, Andrew Kidd 
wrote:
>Mayer/Reed wrote:
>> Well, I AM a woman draftsman, and I couldn't care less!  Won't it be nice
>> when women can be secure enough in their equality to not fuss about
>> minor issues??
>> 
>> Su Elliott
>> Mayer/Reed
>
>Thank you Su,  this is what I was getting at!  We all should have a lot more to worry about 
>than titles...
Precisely.
Look, various titles describe jobs, callings, etc.  It is the attitude
of the people that is important.  What is wrong is when people are
made to feel guilty because of a title used.
Me, when I saw the survey request, I read draftsmen as being nothing
more than plural (i.e. more than one respondent required).  I know of
many women who are offended when referred to as "draftsperson" or
"draftswoman".  They know who and what they are and they are at ease
with it.
Quite frankly, you would find arguments if we were referred to as cats
and dogs.  It is attitudes that are important, and not the words used
to describe people.  I live and work in Blacktown.  Now, no one here
objects to it, however some outside pressure groups have wanted to
change it, because to them it has certain connotations and they are
uncomfortable using the word.  This is the problem.  
Take the case of an advertisement for Simpson washing machines.  It
shows Indian dhobis (clothes washers) examining the new product.  The
voice-over comments on the strength and durability of the machine.
Then one of the dhobis gets hold of the plug and looks oddly at it.
The next shot you see is the dhobis beating their clothes on it
because as the advertisement says "it's as solid as a rock".
A local national TV commentator criticised the advertisement saying
that it showed a stereotypical view of "stupid Indian dhobis not
knowing what to do with an electric plug".  Far from it, they know
what a power plug is, it is just that they don't all have access to a
power socket, hence, use something that is built like a rock as one.
What this shows is that we carry the baggage of all our own prejudices
and guilt when we comment on anything.  In the case of the drafting
survey, there was no malicious intent.  It is the "spin" that has been
put on things by everyone who has commented on it, and their own
perceptions that has made this into something.
Now for something completely different.  The spelling checker I just
ran suggested I replace dhobis with dhotis.  For those who don't know,
a dhoti is the traditional garment work by Indian men.
Regards,
Ian A. White, CPEng
waiwhite@zip.com.au
WAI Engineering
Sydney 2000
Australia

Dear Sirs,
            I'm  looking for a book that explains electrical 
diagrams(one-line diagrams,three-line diagrams,schematic diagrams,logic 
diagrams,wiring diagrams...etc)

>A friend once told me something about love and marriage.  He expressed 
the
>idea that in love and matrimony there is no such thing as the one perfect
>person.  Rather he said, there are many people who are right for each 
other.
>
>Same in learning.  A bright person can find several fields that are 
right.
>So why chose one with dim economic prospects?
I agree to some degree. I think there is a middle ground between finding a 
subject that you like and job prospects. The only other option for Ph.Ds 
is to find an academic position. This is certainly not easy, but you'll 
more than likely do what you want to do. 
I struggled with this question about a few months ago. I got into grad 
school to get a Ph.D. But after talking to a bunch of people who have been 
through it, and from what I have seen, a Ph.D. in engineering is not 
really what industry is looking for nowadays...unless you have worked on a 
project that really relates to what industry is doing. Plus, research 
nowadays is not what it used to be. It very much applied, thus there is no 
real fundamental work performed. Here at Ford, we are limited by cost and 
time. And a lot of research that you should do, isn't even considered just 
because of money.
Anyways, this is the direction industrial research is heading, so a Ph.D. 
might not really help you train you for such a career. Just something to 
think about.
Ari