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Subject: CAN-BC-Victoria: SOIL CHEMISTRY TECHNICIAN -- From: joel@synapse.net (Joel Lecorre)
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: morra@onramp.net (Morra)
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: rodan_@primenet.com
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: rodan_@primenet.com
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: alex@biophys.LeidenUniv.nl (Alessandro Del Bianco)
Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students -- From: Graeme Eisenhofer
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Announcement -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Need a Job or Offering a Job? -- From: "Interphone.net"
Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here -- From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
Subject: Re: Minor update -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Re: ONLINE WORKERS WANTED -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here -- From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here -- From: DrHeasley@Chemistry.com (Frank Heasley)
Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here -- From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)

Articles

Subject: CAN-BC-Victoria: SOIL CHEMISTRY TECHNICIAN
From: joel@synapse.net (Joel Lecorre)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 22:48:24 GMT
SOIL CHEMISTRY TECHNICIAN
Victoria, British Columbia
SALARY: Starting at $34,122 per annum 
Term until end of 1997 at least.
Anticipatory Staffing
OPEN TO: Residents of Vancouver Island
REQUIREMENTS:
- Graduation from a recognized Institute of Technology program in
chemistry or equivalent. 
- Experience in performing standard chemical laboratory analyses
utilizing specialized instrumentation and equipment. 
- Experience in method development for specialized, non standard
analytical chemistry procedures. 
- Experience in using computerized data entry systems (EXCEL or
similar) 
English language is essential. 
Fax your resumé to the Public Service Comission at (250) 363-0558
Quote job title and reference number S9673R72842 and clearly indicate
your citizenship.
DEADLINE: November 18 1996
Note: We thank all those who apply and advise that only those selected
for further consideration will be contacted. In accordance with the
Public Service Employment Act, preference for appointment will be
given to Canadian citizens. Please indicate your citizenship on your
resume. 
Visit the PSC Web site for a complete list of opportunities with the
federal government: HTTP://WWW.PSC-CFP.GC.CA/recruit/jobse.htm
------
TECHNICIEN/TECHNICIENNE EN PEDOCHIMIE
 Victoria (Colombie Britannique)
Ouvert aux: RESIDENTS DE l'ILE DE VANCOUVER 
TRAITEMENT: Commencant a 29 562$ par annee
DOTATION ANTICIPATOIRE 
EXIGENCES:
- Diplome en chimie decerne par un institut de technologie reconnu, ou
l'equivalent. 
- Experience de l'execution d'analyses normalisees dans un laboratoire
de chimie, a l'aide d'instruments et d'appareils specialises. 
-  Experience de l'elaboration de methodes aux fins de l'execution de
procedures d'analyse chimique non standard et specialisees. 
-  Experience de l'exploitation de systemes informatises de saisie de
donnees (EXCEL ou systeme analogue) 
 Anglais essentiel. 
DATE LIMITE: le 18 november 1996 
Faire parvenir votre demande d'emploi a notre bureau par telecopieur
(250) 363-0558 au plus tard le 18 novembre 1996. Veuillez indiquer le
titre du poste et le no de ref S9673R72842.
Nota: Nous remercions a l'avance tous ceux qui soumettront une demande
d'emploi mais nous ne communiquerons qu'avec les candidats
choisis pour la prochaine etape. En conformite avec la Loi sur
l'emploi dans la fonction publique la preference a la nomination sera
accordee aux citoyens canadiens. Veuillez indiquer votre citoyennete
sur votre resume.
Visitez le site web de la CFP pour une liste complete des postes
disponibles: HTTP://WWW.PSC-CFP.GC.CA/recruit/jobs.htm
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: morra@onramp.net (Morra)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 96 23:22:30 GMT
In article <56huie$k91@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
   jbszee@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>I chose the Ph.D., because it is immediately recognized, and there is
>no question as to your degree.  An Sc.D may not offer the "Brand
>Recognition" factor.
You are correct concerning brand recognition.  I think brand recognition
has much less value these days with businesses, as world competition has
required a much leaner and meaner performance.  Your degree is always in
question through your performance.
>By the way, which schools offer the DE degree?
Southern Methodist University, Dallas TX
>Dr. James B. Schutz
>Materials Engineer
>Boulder, Colorado
************ http://rampages.onramp.net/~morra/tme.html ****************
THIRD MILLENNIUM ENGINEERING * Engineering Counsel, Design, Development
Electronic & Microelectronic Products *  Functional Test & Measurement
Systems * Specialized Assembly, Test, and Experimental Equipment
************************************************************************
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: rodan_@primenet.com
Date: 14 Nov 1996 00:46:06 -0700
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.  See news.admin.net-abuse.announce
for further information.
Graeme,
I am sorry that I have to post to these newsgroups.  I do not have
the time or financial resources to lobby congress as so many 
companies do.  
Thank you for the detailed response, but I disagree with you.  You say,
the US is carrying out an agenda of helping american born, when the
number of immigrants admitted this year shot up to 150,000, and the 
papers were full of stories about business getting their way.  Please
do your homework before you take a stand!  It looks to me like I am
the one who is a intelligent, detailed scientist, while you are a 
grandstander.
You are right about other countries, germany and france have very low
quotas on the number of immigrant workers  -- you cannot get a job there
period because they don't allow it.
The way I see it, Foreign born scientists/engieers are a sort of 
novelty where avant garde employees get a chance to act hip and 
"unbiased" (we do not see class in america, but we can see race, 
and I am not Bart Simpson).  These foreigners come here simply for 
the higher salaries, and employers hire them mostly to make a better
profit and to lesson the chance of giving rise to a startup competitor.
I wish these scientists would take a worldly viewpoint too, and stay 
in their own countries with the education they received at that 
countries expense and help to modernize it, instead of coming to 
the us and supporting greedy, aristocratic business and stock owners.
Rodan
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: rodan_@primenet.com
Date: 14 Nov 1996 00:46:07 -0700
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.  See news.admin.net-abuse.announce
for further information.
Graeme,
I am sorry that I have to post to these newsgroups.  I do not have
the time or financial resources to lobby congress as so many 
companies do.  
Thank you for the detailed response, but I disagree with you.  You say,
the US is carrying out an agenda of helping american born, when the
number of immigrants admitted this year shot up to 150,000, and the 
papers were full of stories about business getting their way.  Please
do your homework before you take a stand!  It looks to me like I am
the one who is a intelligent, detailed scientist, while you are a 
grandstander.
You are right about other countries, germany and france have very low
quotas on the number of immigrant workers  -- you cannot get a job there
period because they don't allow it.
The way I see it, Foreign born scientists/engieers are a sort of 
novelty where avant garde employees get a chance to act hip and 
"unbiased" (we do not see class in america, but we can see race, 
and I am not Bart Simpson).  These foreigners come here simply for 
the higher salaries, and employers hire them mostly to make a better
profit and to lesson the chance of giving rise to a startup competitor.
I wish these scientists would take a worldly viewpoint too, and stay 
in their own countries with the education they received at that 
countries expense and help to modernize it, instead of coming to 
the us and supporting greedy, aristocratic business and stock owners.
Rodan
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: alex@biophys.LeidenUniv.nl (Alessandro Del Bianco)
Date: 14 Nov 1996 16:03:53 GMT
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.  See news.admin.net-abuse.announce
for further information.
Dear Rodan,
rodan_@primenet.com wrote:
: These foreigners come here simply for 
: the higher salaries, and employers hire them mostly to make a better
: profit and to lesson the chance of giving rise to a startup competitor.
Sorry I disagree: the salaries are not higher in US than in old Europe, I
was offered a position in Minnesota, but I refused only because the salary
was 70% of my current earnings.
: I wish these scientists would take a worldly viewpoint too, and stay 
: in their own countries with the education they received at that 
: countries expense and help to modernize it, instead of coming to 
: the us and supporting greedy, aristocratic business and stock owners.
You don't consider how much your country pays to have a PhD, I guess that it
is cheaper to have to pay only the salary and not the studies.
Regards
Alessandro
--
Alessandro Del Bianco, Biophysics Dept. Leiden University   
Niels Bohrweg, 2 - PO 9504 RA 2300 Leiden The Netherlands 
ph. +31 71 527 5983     e-mail alex@biophys.LeidenUniv.nl
Home page http://www.biophys.leidenuniv.nl/~alex/
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Subject: Re: H1 and L1 visa brings 150,000 high tech "qualified" immigrants to the US each year, displacing hard working, lower class students
From: Graeme Eisenhofer
Date: 14 Nov 1996 04:58:05 GMT
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller.  See news.admin.net-abuse.announce
for further information.
I for one as a skilled worker (Ph.D. scientist) and 'proud to be US 
citizen' are getting rather fed up with the posts from  this 
 (see below) who never provides her/his identity, 
but keeps on pushing his/her scape goat views to explain the current 
changes in employment opportunities in the US.
Also continually disturbing to me is the considerable dialogue, 
expressed in a variety of media (e.g., newspapers, internet news groups 
and professional publications), concerning the apparent current 
oversupply in the US of individuals with high professional 
qualifications. The blame is typically placed on immigration, education, 
and employment procedures that are apparently resulting in an major 
influx of students and highly qualified immigrants from abroad who are 
displacing 'US born Americans' at the same professional level. Concern 
expressed at the congressional level is already resulting in changes in 
immigration policies and a resulting wide spread hidden agenda to favor 
employment and advancement for 'US born' over 'Foreign born' residents 
of the US. Perhaps, this may seem entirely justified; after all, in many 
countries written laws favor citizens over non-citizens for employment 
and in almost all countries there is some form of immigration bar to 
employment. In the United States, permanent residency status (i.e., the 
Green card) used to be sufficient to allow the 'Foreign born' a chance 
to follow his or her choice of career (some government positions an 
exception). Today, however, citizenship (irrespective of the length of 
residency or presence of US born family members) may not be enough to 
avoid prejudice. It is now the 'Foreign born' who are being 
discriminated against. 
All the above represents somewhat of a turnaround, since undoubtedly it 
has been the drive and expertise of immigrants as well as the open 
freedom and competitiveness of the democratic capitalist system that has 
made the United States the economic power and world leader in science 
and technology that it is today. It should also be considered that 
increased competition for positions and resources in science is not 
confined to the United States. Similar problems are also apparent in 
many other countries from as far a field as India to France. Thus, 
nationalist tendencies towards employment and careers are likely to 
increase on a global basis. This is unfortunate since the advancement of 
technology, science and economic well being should ideally be an 
international endeavor.
I hope that any participants of these newsgroups outside of the US do 
not think that all Americans are a bunch of Xenophobic bigots. There are 
actually a few people in the US who believe in open competition and 
enjoy and look forward to the challenges that such competition may bring 
to this world. I also hope that if this is so, these people will openly 
recognise the utter crap ‹ for what it is ‹ being perpetuated by 
 and colleagues on these newsgroups and in any 
other form of media.
Graeme Eisenhofer, Ph.D.
graeme@his.com
_______________________________
rodan_@primenet.com wrote:
>

U.S. programs that allow entry to tens of thousands >of permanent and temporary foreign workers fail to protect U.S >workers' jobs or wages and are riddled with abuses that in many >cases have made their original intent a ''sham,'' according to >an audit by the Labor Department's inspector general.

The >audit, >a draft summary of which was obtained by the Washington Post, >found that employers routinely flout requirements >to search for U.S. workers for job openings and to pay the >prevailing wage to the foreigners they hire. The inspector >general's >office, an ''independent agency'' within the Labor Department, >decides autonomously which programs to audit, a >departmentofficial said.

'Unique' skills

>''The inspector general's report confirms what we've been >saying >for years,'' said Labor Secretary Robert Reich. In particular, >a program that allows annual admissions of up to 65,000 foreign >workers with ''unique'' skills under temporary H1B visas >''doesn't >work,'' he said.

Employers strongly defend the H1B program >and a category ofemployment-based permanent immigration that >makes >available up to 140,000 immigrant visas for foreign workers and >their families. >

Businesses and immigration advocates say the programs >help >supply U.S. high-tech firms and other businesses with the >world's >''best and the brightest'' in an increasingly competitive >global >economy and that U.S. workers are protected by existing rules. >Among them are Labor Department requirements that employers >search >for qualified U.S. workers before sponsoring foreign workers as >permanent immigrants and pay ''prevailing wages'' to foreign >temporary workers.

>'Shopping' services

The inspector general's report said, >however, ''the foreign labor programs we audited do not protect >U.S. workers' jobs >or wages from foreign labor because neither program meets its >legislative intent.''

The program for certifying permanent >employment-based immigrants instead allows foreigners already >in the United >States to obtain permanent resident status ''and then shop >their services in competition with equally or more qualified >U.S. workers without regard to prevailing wage,'' the report >said.

The H1B program, it said, largely ''serves as a > probationary try-out employment program for illegal aliens, >foreign students >and foreign visitors to determine if they will be sponsored for >permanent status.''

>'Sham' tests

Of 24,150 foreigners for whom employers in 12 >states applied for immigrant status during fiscal 1993, the >audit found, 98.7 >percent were already in the United States and 74.1 percent were >already working for the employer when the application was >filed. >Of those already employed, 16.4 percent were working illegally, >it found.

Market tests for qualified U.S. workers are >''perfunctory at best and a sham at worst,'' > the report said.

Advertisements or postings for those >24,150 jobs as required by the Labor Department resulted in >165,000 applicants, but in >more than 99 percent of the cases a U.S. worker was not hired, >the audit found. This was because the employers were simply >posting the jobs to meet the requirement, a department >spokesman >said.

The audit, begun in April 1995, also showed that few >of > the employers surveyed could prove that they paid their H1B >workers >the prevailing wage. The auditors reported that nearly 75 >percent >of H1B visa holders worked for employers ''who did not >adequately >document'' their wages, that nearly 13 percent ''were paid >below >the advertised prevailing wage and that 10 percentwere either >illegally treated as independent contractors to avoid payroll >and >administrative costs or contracted out to other employers.

>Firm denials

>To preserve the current system, employers have spearheaded a >campaign tostrip >provisions on legal immigration from bills in Congress to >reformimmigration laws. >


The San Jose Mercury News archives are stored on a >SAVE (tm) newspaper >library system from Vu/Text Library Services, a Knight-Ridder >Inc. company. >
Return to Top
Subject: Re: Engineering PhD's
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:34:39 -0500
In reference to what the person who emphasized a DE over a PhD said, I'd
like that person to give more background on who he is and why he said what
he said and give some references for that emphasis. PhD degrees come out
of "graduate schools" which are umbrellas over all departments except
"odd" areas. A few schools may, out of convention (or maybe in certain
parts of the world), a Doctor of Engineering or a Doctor of Science
degree, instead of a Doctor of Philosophy. I have not been everywhere in
the world, but I have rarely heard of substantial & meaningfulness to a DE
vs a PhD. There are a few Doctor of Arts (a PhD without a
dissertation) programs, and a PhD out of a college of education can be a
EdD rather than a PhD. And out of professional schools the initials can be
different (eg DDS, LLD, etc). And lastly, one can sometimes get a BA
(batchelor of arts) instead of a BS degree simply by putting a checkmark
on the graduation card (this was a fact where I got my BS degree) but
otherwise little curriculum content definition was important. A BSx, where
x= engineering (eg. EE, ME, etc) did have curriculum content requirements.
I do not know the (mission-orriented) engineering field job markets like
the (discipline-orriented) pure science job markets, but I would tend to
expect that there are many more job openings for BS level than Doctoral
level people. What kind of doctoral level may be much less important than
a match between a specific person and a specific employer's needs. 
Art Sowers
(http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm)
==== no change to below, included for reference and context ====
On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Morra wrote:
> username  wrote:
> >There has been a lot of talk here about the bad situation for PhD's in 
> >the biological sciences who just end up going thru one postdoc after the 
> >other. But what about those who get doctorates in one of the engineering 
> >fields such as civil, mechanical or chemical. What is the job market like 
> >for those who have doctorates in engineering fields.
> 
> I would suggest you look into engineering doctorate degrees, such as the DE
> (Doctor of Engineering) or the DSc (Doctor of Science), instead of the PhD
> (Doctor of Philosophy).  The DE and DSc are more generalist and the PhD is
> more specialist.  Industrial jobs place a much higher value on generalists
> than specialists these days.  I have a DE and find myself in very high demand
> and very well paid, so it seems my investment has paid off.  I have noticed
> that only a few schools offer these degrees, so you might have some difficulty
> in learning of the generalist doctorate options.
> 
> >To what extent does the discipline and area of research make a 
> >difference. I recall that Dan Riley posted sometime back how he 
> >researched different areas in physics before commiting to the area of his 
> >choice and how his choice enabled him to end up getting several offers 
> >after graduation. But that may have been an isolated case. 
> 
> Companies selling electronic devices would like electrical, mechanical, and
> computer science disciplines and research.  But this edge is really trivial.
> Flexibility, adaptibility, critical thinking, analysis and composition on
> a wide range of business issues, ability to abstract, etc. are valued.  These
> are some common doctorate skills, so a chemical engineer may be generating
> capital requests or evaluating epoxies for semiconductor die mount.  Offers
> after graduation is more related to your chemistry, your spirit, your
> willingness to learn, your capacity to learn, how you treat others (especially
> non-doctorates, read as humble), etc.  These factors are important in an
> interview.
> 
> >Recently one gentleman with degrees in materials engineering from MIT 
> >posted about his layoff from his research job. Is the job market 
> >really that bad for PhD's in all disciplines? How easy (or difficult) is 
> >it for someone with a doctorate to find a job as a research engineer?
> 
> Every one from the CEO down is subject to layoff these days, so don't even
> bother worrying or just worry on Saturday mornings for 60 minutes.
> 
> >I have to make a decision whether or not I should actually be going all 
> >the way for a PhD. Having seen the cases of many a friends and after 
> >reading posts, I am starting to wonder if a PhD is really worth all the 
> >time, money and effort. Any help would do.
> 
> A doctorate is worth it, but this post recommends a DE or DSc, not a PhD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
Return to Top
Subject: Announcement
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 22:20:07 -0500
Graeme Eisenhofer (http://his.com/~graeme/pandp.html) and I met today
to discuss science job markets, the employment "atmosphere" for PhDs in
general and in specific, and what we might do as a contribution in the
public interest. I have my CPSJ essays on a web page of my own
(http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm) that deal with the
science career (particularly aimed at academia). We decided to have a
"joint statement" followed by a linking of his web site to mine and vice
versa. Our sites are private, non commercial and informational only. 
If anyone else has a private website containing information, opinions,
advice, statements of history or experience that would benefit the public
in general, please get in contact with either one of us. We are presently
trying to design some simple graphic and script that could be easily put
on a website to indicate a loose "association" or "coalition" between the
website owner/authors. The two of us "generally" subscribe to concern
with the following issues:
1. The mismatch of PhDs to jobs (research should be better funded).
2. Doctoral level personnel are often treated, in many employment
   situations (more on that later, or see my CPSJ essays or Graeme's
   "pandp.html" page), more poorly than many other personnel categories.
3. We urge doctorate holders and doctoral students to become active in 
   making everyone more aware of the problems associated with issues #1
   and #2. 
4. We invite others who have significant web pages (or otherwise maintain
   relevant internet resources) to work with Graeme and myself to identify 
   our "coalition," support for any action that might lead to improvement  
   in the situations of #1 & #2 above. What we have in mind is a small
   "area" on our web pages that contain a "joint statement" that we both 
   support IN ADDITION TO link access.
We both agreed that we want to avoid, at least for the present, a formal
organization and we want to keep the specifics (the above four "areas")
broad so as to allow the maximum number of people the maximum comfort in
supporting a general grass-roots movement. 
Those of you who have access to The Scientist may want to read the
November 11, 1996 issue for the front page article by Robert Finn
"Academic job security threatened as anti-tenure wave sweeps U.S." which
also includes some interview statements by myself to Bob (in a
telephone interview) and references my home page as one item in the "For
Further Information" sidebar.
Art Sowers
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Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:39:08 -0500
Gosh Mark, Dave Jensen is chasing job and resume posts off of his private
"career forum" too. Where are these people supposed to go?  ;-)
Art
On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Marc Andelman wrote:
> This is a career discussion forum, and is being swamped
> with job and resume postings.  There are plenty of other
> places to post these.
> 
> Regards,
> Marc Andelman
> 
> 
Return to Top
Subject: Need a Job or Offering a Job?
From: "Interphone.net"
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:50:44 -0800
I'm proud to say that Interphone's Employment Finder is now on-line and
ready for use.  This is a free service for those who seek employment and
for those who offer employment.  You may post your resume/profile or a
job opportunity for others to review.  Resume's and Job Opportunities
can be searched by city, state/province, country and by the skill/job
title to pinpoint a potential employee or employer.  I hope you all find
this useful! 
E-mail: info@interphone.net
WWW   : http://interphone.net
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Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here
From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
Date: 16 Nov 1996 17:34:03 GMT
In article ,
"Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
>Gosh Mark, Dave Jensen is chasing job and resume posts off of his private
>"career forum" too. Where are these people supposed to go?  ;-)
>
>Art
>
>On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Marc Andelman wrote:
>
>> This is a career discussion forum, and is being swamped
>> with job and resume postings.  There are plenty of other
>> places to post these.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Marc Andelman
Cheers to you, Marc, for publically stating what everyone has been
complaining about privately. I agree . . .  career discussion forums are
not the place for posting resumes and job openings. I've been sending
private email to those who are posting open jobs on src, and occasionally
they respond back that they "didn't know it was discussion, it sounded
like a jobs posting area." So, I guess we'll always see the group littered
by things from outsiders who haven't even taken the time to lurk.
There are so many places to post resumes on the web. There is really no
reason to place them here or on the Bio Online career forum, which is
incidently at http://cns.bio.com/hr/forum/.
By the way, sure isn't very private over there at the career discussion
forum, Art. We've had dozens of posts (rivaling this newsgroup in its
first ten days) and from many different countries. (Yes, it is moderated
if that is what you mean. Two posts have been removed, both of them resume
postings. We'll continue to delete those and any references to something
that doesn't fit with our theme of career discussions for those in the
biosciences). We've even had our sharing of bitching and moaning, all of
which survived the moderated status of the group.
Dave
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Subject: Re: Minor update
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:07:27 -0500
On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Judith Gibber wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Arthur E. Sowers wrote:
> 
> > For those who may be old enough to know, the
> > market for dentists also dropped off some about a decade ago and I
> > remember several dental schools that were closed. Probably what
> > contributed to that was that some were probably also in financial
> > dificulty and I'd like to go back and research that, too.
> 
> I thought it had to do with water fluoridation leading to fewer
> cavities in children, fewer dentists needed.
> 
> 
Yes, that played a roll, too, I'm pretty sure. It also comes to mind that
fluoride is an industrial byproduct which (like many others) has escaped
into our entire environment in sufficient levels that they don't even need
to add fluoride to the water. Everyone gets it anyway and it has this one
beneficial effect. Still, the point was that several dental schools were
closed and that feeds into the discussion we have about how at least some
professional schools regulate their admissions. Medical schools now have
about 20% less students than they had about a decade or so back. I don't
have the actual figures handy, but when I saw them, they did come from a
medical school newsletter and I thought how interesting that they cut back
on med student admissions, but the  let grad students in in continually
increasing nubmers. I recall that they had something line 200-250% more
PhD students in the same interval that they cut back med students by the
20% figure. 
Art Sowers
(http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm)
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Subject: Re: ONLINE WORKERS WANTED
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 14:59:50 -0500
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, C. GORAN EKBORG wrote:
> No this is definitely not appropriate for sci.research.careers which is supposed to
> (as far as I understand; Art Sowers, please have patience with one of those  despised
> "newbies") be a forum for discussion of careers in science, in a fairly broad sense. 
No big deal. I don't care to see the resumes and job openings posted, 
either, except that I do sympathize 200% with the guys who need to find a
job so I keep my mouth shut.
> And no to the best of my knowledge (though I might be wrong) this group does not have
> a formal charter.
Somebody said, that somewhere back in antiquity (like the early 1980s)
there is probably a charter. But does it really matter that much?
Cheers (too),
Art Sowers
(http://www.access.digex.net/~arthures/homepage.htm)
> Cheers,
> 
> Goran Ekborg
> ***************************************************************************************************************
>  mayer@zercom.net  (!Sylvain Mayer) wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >Work With Our Company And GET THE PERFECT JOB...
> >
> >Work from home... Full or Part Time.  Work with your computer and get an 
> >average salary over $100,000/year.  No personal selling.
> >
> >To get your FREE information report:
> >- click here to download the file right now:
> >     http://www.microtec.net/~mayers/go20.exe
> >- click here to visit our WWW home page:
> >     http://www.microtec.net/~mayers/index.html
> >
> >If you would like to get the file through E-MAIL, just reply with the 
> >mention "SEND DISK" and you will receive a Zip file (413 454 Bytes). If 
> >you prefer by snail mail reply with name and address.
> >
> >WE CAN GET YOU STARTED TODAY!!
> >
> >Sylvain Mayer, YnterPro
> >Mail: mayer@zercom.net
> >WWW:  http://www.microtec.net/~mayers/index.html
> >
> >ps. If you think this post is not relevant to the place your reading it 
> >    from, please let me know.  Send me the charter before FLAMING at me.
> >    Thanks.
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here
From: "Arthur E. Sowers"
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:15:23 -0500
On 16 Nov 1996, Dave Jensen wrote:
> In article ,
> "Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
> 
> >Gosh Mark, Dave Jensen is chasing job and resume posts off of his private
> >"career forum" too. Where are these people supposed to go?  ;-)
> >
> >Art
> >
> >On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Marc Andelman wrote:
> >
> >> This is a career discussion forum, and is being swamped
> >> with job and resume postings.  There are plenty of other
> >> places to post these.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> Marc Andelman
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers to you, Marc, for publically stating what everyone has been
> complaining about privately. I agree . . .  career discussion forums are
> not the place for posting resumes and job openings. I've been sending
> private email to those who are posting open jobs on src, and occasionally
> they respond back that they "didn't know it was discussion, it sounded
> like a jobs posting area." So, I guess we'll always see the group littered
> by things from outsiders who haven't even taken the time to lurk.
> 
> There are so many places to post resumes on the web. There is really no
> reason to place them here or on the Bio Online career forum, which is
> incidently at http://cns.bio.com/hr/forum/.
> 
> By the way, sure isn't very private over there at the career discussion
> forum, Art.
Oh, I was over there lurking the other day, and spying on your advice,
too, which I thought was, for the ones I sampled, toned down quite a bit
from your prior "go-study-anything-you-want-don't-worry-about-the-future"
tone. I was even thinking about making a submission to see if it would get
past your eyes.
> We've had dozens of posts (rivaling this newsgroup in its
> first ten days) and from many different countries. (Yes, it is moderated
> if that is what you mean. Two posts have been removed, both of them resume
> postings. We'll continue to delete those and any references to something
> that doesn't fit with our theme of career discussions for those in the
> biosciences). We've even had our sharing of bitching and moaning, all of
> which survived the moderated status of the group.
Yes, I saw some of those, too, and was amazed that you permitted them to
pass through!!!!
I also looked at what you wrote for the nextwave session on AAAS and
thought it was evenhanded and reasonable. I may add some non-disparaging
footnotes as a reply and see if "they" let them through.
> Dave
> 
> 
Art
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Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here
From: DrHeasley@Chemistry.com (Frank Heasley)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 23:22:06 GMT
On 16 Nov 1996 17:34:03 GMT, davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen) wrote:
|In article ,
|"Arthur E. Sowers"  wrote:
|
|>Gosh Mark, Dave Jensen is chasing job and resume posts off of his private
|>"career forum" too. Where are these people supposed to go?  ;-)
|>
|>Art
|>|
(cut)
|By the way, sure isn't very private over there at the career discussion
|forum, Art. We've had dozens of posts (rivaling this newsgroup in its
|first ten days) and from many different countries. (Yes, it is moderated
|if that is what you mean. Two posts have been removed, both of them resume
|postings. We'll continue to delete those and any references to something
|that doesn't fit with our theme of career discussions for those in the
|biosciences). We've even had our sharing of bitching and moaning, all of
|which survived the moderated status of the group.
The questions that loom large in my mind are:
1. Why do we need another discussion forum like SMI's now?
2. Why does DJ feel it necessary to set up his own private forum to
compete with src?
I've also been annoyed in the past by obvious resume and job spam
originating in this group from commercial sites, and I've asked them
to stop (which they for the most part have).  I think it's the wrong
place and those who do it need to be reminded of that.
However, I don't see anything wrong with the occasional resume or job
posting coming from an individual, whether commercially motivated or
not (everyone who isn't $$ oriented when it comes to jobs raise their
hands...;-)  I think the relationship between quantity and quality is
the key: too many resumes, or too many jobs, dilute the purpose of the
forum.
Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
Principal
FSG Online - Jobs and Resumes in Biotechnology, Science and Medicine
http://www.chemistry.com
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Subject: Re: Please stop posting jobs and resumes here
From: davej@sedona.net (Dave Jensen)
Date: 17 Nov 1996 01:19:37 GMT
In article <328e4ad7.40255100@news.gate.net>, DrHeasley@Chemistry.com
(Frank Heasley) wrote:
>The questions that loom large in my mind are:
>
>1. Why do we need another discussion forum like SMI's now?
>
>2. Why does DJ feel it necessary to set up his own private forum to
>compete with src?
Frank - I don't think it is so competitive with src. If I have a tendency
to make it sound that way, it is just my inner competitive nature.
Anywhere I write or talk, I usually mention src when it comes 'round to
newsgroup discussions of careers.
But I've noticed that there is a certain type of post here which has to do
with graduate education and academia that throws the group into whole
subject areas that have nothing to do with our charter at the Bio Online
career discussion forum. Also, I've gotten caught in the wringer more than
once on src because I've made some comment about science careers (from my
biotech perspective) and I've been nailed (rightfully so) by a bunch of
physicists. 
I think the broad nature of src is its appeal . . . but also, to the
person with specific biotech career concerns, it is also its weakness.
>I've also been annoyed in the past by obvious resume and job spam
>originating in this group from commercial sites, and I've asked them
>to stop (which they for the most part have).  I think it's the wrong
>place and those who do it need to be reminded of that.
>
>However, I don't see anything wrong with the occasional resume or job
>posting coming from an individual, whether commercially motivated or
>not (everyone who isn't $$ oriented when it comes to jobs raise their
>hands...;-)  I think the relationship between quantity and quality is
>the key: too many resumes, or too many jobs, dilute the purpose of the
>forum.
>
>
>
>Frank Heasley, Ph.D.
I once asked a guy whose resume was plastered everywhere it could be on
the net, why he did that. (On src, on each of about six other non-resume
newsgroups, etc.). He replied that this was his method of networking.
Reminds me of the guy looking for a job who stuck his resume in a bunch of
bottles and floated them all away. 
Wouldn't it be a much better idea to stick resumes where they belong, on
newsgroups designed for that? Or even better, to stick one on the AMGEN
page which is designed for resume submittal!!!
Dave Jensen
http://smi.bio.com/
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